naturalgasbad@lemmy.ca
on 23 Dec 2023 13:48
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A new poll has found that 96 percent of Saudi nationals believe that Arab countries should cut ties with Israel in response to the war in Gaza, and that the popularity of Hamas has grown significantly amid Israel’s devastating military offensive on the embattled territory.
The result of the poll, conducted by the Washington Institute for Near Eastern Affairs, a pro-Israel think tank based in Washington, shows the difficulties the United States faces as it pushes for Saudi Arabia to normalise ties with Israel
PugJesus@kbin.social
on 23 Dec 2023 13:55
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I'm sure there's some Israeli diplomat who's been working the past twenty years to normalize relations and is now sitting in their office with a gun in their mouth over just how far Israeli relations with Arab nations are gonna revert.
Syntha@sh.itjust.works
on 23 Dec 2023 17:54
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I think the geopolitical reality is much more relevant to the policies of the Arab states than the sensibilities of their population.
PugJesus@kbin.social
on 23 Dec 2023 22:55
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If that was true relations with Israel would have been normalized by now.
Syntha@sh.itjust.works
on 23 Dec 2023 23:12
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A poll of random Saudi citizens is irrelevant — they have no say in their government.
SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
on 23 Dec 2023 14:51
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When 96% of the population is vehemently for or against something, not even a totalitarian government can ignore it without consequences. Saudi Arabia was on its tracks to normalize diplomatic relationships with Israel before October, where have those intentions gone now?
nova_ad_vitum@lemmy.ca
on 23 Dec 2023 14:54
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When 96% of the population is vehemently for or against something, not even a totalitarian government can ignore it without consequences.
Imposing those consequences on the government will mean those citizens will stop getting their handouts from the government . They’re not going to risk it over this.
Do you think a majority of the population supported normalization before October?
SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
on 23 Dec 2023 19:12
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They didn’t, sure, but “opposing that country because they’re treating some other Muslims badly” is pretty different from “opposing that country after I’ve seen images of brutal attacks against other Muslims week after week in recent memory”.
I feel you underestimate Saudi Arabia’s ability to be totalitarian. And while the population might disagree with leadership on this issue, it doesn’t mean they disagree on all issues and are about to start a revolution about this one issue.
But, more importantly, Saudi Arabia is the USAs most significant ally in the middle east. Losing access to American made weapons is more worrying to the Saudi Arabian Royal Family than losing the popular support of the domestic population. Because with American weaponry one can easily coerce the domestic population.
I feel those intentions to normalize relations are still there behind closed doors and will play out in the long run.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 17:26
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You heavily overestimate them. Saudi already has bent to the population before when they tried to westernize too fast and it blew up in their faces. That’s why MBS now openly says he wants to do it gradually.
Some of the most the most prominent guerilla fighters that beat America in resistance groups were actually Saudis that went to Jihad.
If even America can’t beat those guys it’s impossible that a bunch of dudes with American weapons can, especially if they can’t just carpet bomb everything American style because it’s their own country.
The Saudi royals would love to get rid of their religious population and sell out to America they can’t.
AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space
on 23 Dec 2023 14:21
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It’s telling that they only care when these Muslims die, because they’re being killed by Israel
Don’t fool yourself into thinking these hellstates are doing anything but playing team sports.
sheogorath@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 15:07
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It’s the Saudi citizen, not the government. I’d still like to say that the government stance is “keep giving me your money and weapons and I’ll turn a blind eye”.
Cuttlefish1111@lemmy.world
on 23 Dec 2023 18:35
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Wasn’t this the desired outcome of from the attack?
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 14:32
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Of course. To show the world israel is a genocidal Nazi ethno state.
And israel of course did the exact thing they were expected to do, genocidal Nazi stuff.
Before the war everyone, even the west, said to israel “If you do genocide you’re only gonna create more Hamas” then israel said “No trust me bro it’s just a special military operation we never lie here”. And then of course they did genocide because that’s the only thing their government knows to do.
galloog1@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 15:25
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Don’t misrepresent their narrative. They never said it was a special military operation or anything short of a war. They were very clear that they were decorating war on Hamas and anything short of a complete Hamas surrender was inadequate. They have not decorated from this.
The casualties suggest Hamas is collateral damage. The target, as has been made abundantly clear at this point, is the civilian population of Gaza.
galloog1@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 15:54
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Any other army on earth would have similar civilian casualties going into that dense an area. Most would be worse.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 18:35
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Hamas actually had a 2/3 civilian casualty rate compared to israels 74/75
Of course Hamas actually risked their own lives and did targeted attacks on military bases instead of bombing children’s hospitals with guided missles.
Fun fact, with their current targeting accuracy the IDF Nazis would need to kill more Palestinians than actually than exist in Gaza to kill Hamas.
galloog1@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 22:48
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Hamas targeted military outposts as a means to attacking civilian targets including a music festival and families face to face. The IDF targets military targets embedded within civilian areas. Hamas embedds themselves within civilian areas to ensure maximum civilian casualties of they are targeted. This isn’t even a question at this point. The criticism is the continuation of the targeting despite it.
Again, any army on earth would produce the same results including NATO.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 24 Dec 2023 23:37
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Except of course Hamas which has at leaft a 25x lower civilian casualty rate than israel. Because they are not cowards that only dare to bomb children from the skies but risk their own lives and don’t shoot children when they see them.
New study from Washington Post shows that there were no Hamas headquarters inside the hospitals israel bombed by the way just mostly women and children as usual.
threaded - newest
…
Normalization is dead.
Thanks, Iran?
Thanks israel
Good.
I'm sure there's some Israeli diplomat who's been working the past twenty years to normalize relations and is now sitting in their office with a gun in their mouth over just how far Israeli relations with Arab nations are gonna revert.
I think the geopolitical reality is much more relevant to the policies of the Arab states than the sensibilities of their population.
If that was true relations with Israel would have been normalized by now.
Why?
A poll of random Saudi citizens is irrelevant — they have no say in their government.
When 96% of the population is vehemently for or against something, not even a totalitarian government can ignore it without consequences. Saudi Arabia was on its tracks to normalize diplomatic relationships with Israel before October, where have those intentions gone now?
Imposing those consequences on the government will mean those citizens will stop getting their handouts from the government . They’re not going to risk it over this.
Do you think a majority of the population supported normalization before October?
They didn’t, sure, but “opposing that country because they’re treating some other Muslims badly” is pretty different from “opposing that country after I’ve seen images of brutal attacks against other Muslims week after week in recent memory”.
That’s true. I still don’t think the Saudi oligarchy really cares, but we’ll see.
I feel you underestimate Saudi Arabia’s ability to be totalitarian. And while the population might disagree with leadership on this issue, it doesn’t mean they disagree on all issues and are about to start a revolution about this one issue.
But, more importantly, Saudi Arabia is the USAs most significant ally in the middle east. Losing access to American made weapons is more worrying to the Saudi Arabian Royal Family than losing the popular support of the domestic population. Because with American weaponry one can easily coerce the domestic population.
I feel those intentions to normalize relations are still there behind closed doors and will play out in the long run.
You heavily overestimate them. Saudi already has bent to the population before when they tried to westernize too fast and it blew up in their faces. That’s why MBS now openly says he wants to do it gradually.
Some of the most the most prominent guerilla fighters that beat America in resistance groups were actually Saudis that went to Jihad.
If even America can’t beat those guys it’s impossible that a bunch of dudes with American weapons can, especially if they can’t just carpet bomb everything American style because it’s their own country.
The Saudi royals would love to get rid of their religious population and sell out to America they can’t.
What does Prince Bonesaw say, though?
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ca/pictrs/image/1b837eef-b455-4db8-8757-c2a03fd3d296.gif">
No Refunds for the Abraham Accords though.
mission accomplished
When the butchers of Yemen are looking at your genocide and saying “this is a bit much” its probably a bad sign.
It’s not that the Saudis care that it’s bad enough to use as leverage, which is to say that the Monarchy is still wholly morally bankrupt.
It’s telling that they only care when these Muslims die, because they’re being killed by Israel
Don’t fool yourself into thinking these hellstates are doing anything but playing team sports.
It’s the Saudi citizen, not the government. I’d still like to say that the government stance is “keep giving me your money and weapons and I’ll turn a blind eye”.
Wasn’t this the desired outcome of from the attack?
Of course. To show the world israel is a genocidal Nazi ethno state.
And israel of course did the exact thing they were expected to do, genocidal Nazi stuff.
Before the war everyone, even the west, said to israel “If you do genocide you’re only gonna create more Hamas” then israel said “No trust me bro it’s just a special military operation we never lie here”. And then of course they did genocide because that’s the only thing their government knows to do.
Don’t misrepresent their narrative. They never said it was a special military operation or anything short of a war. They were very clear that they were decorating war on Hamas and anything short of a complete Hamas surrender was inadequate. They have not decorated from this.
The casualties suggest Hamas is collateral damage. The target, as has been made abundantly clear at this point, is the civilian population of Gaza.
Any other army on earth would have similar civilian casualties going into that dense an area. Most would be worse.
Hamas actually had a 2/3 civilian casualty rate compared to israels 74/75
Of course Hamas actually risked their own lives and did targeted attacks on military bases instead of bombing children’s hospitals with guided missles.
Fun fact, with their current targeting accuracy the IDF Nazis would need to kill more Palestinians than actually than exist in Gaza to kill Hamas.
Hamas targeted military outposts as a means to attacking civilian targets including a music festival and families face to face. The IDF targets military targets embedded within civilian areas. Hamas embedds themselves within civilian areas to ensure maximum civilian casualties of they are targeted. This isn’t even a question at this point. The criticism is the continuation of the targeting despite it.
Again, any army on earth would produce the same results including NATO.
Except of course Hamas which has at leaft a 25x lower civilian casualty rate than israel. Because they are not cowards that only dare to bomb children from the skies but risk their own lives and don’t shoot children when they see them.
New study from Washington Post shows that there were no Hamas headquarters inside the hospitals israel bombed by the way just mostly women and children as usual.
washingtonpost.com/…/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas…
Pretty sure most if not all arab nations already hated Israel.
That face reminds me of something
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f7c235fd-6798-44c2-8e6b-b5166584bf89.png">