from MicroWave@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 04 Jun 10:20
https://lemmy.world/post/30784159
Date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, with government using increasingly sophisticated tools to censor its discussion
There is no official death toll but activists believe hundreds, possibly thousands, were killed by China’s People’s Liberation Army in the streets around Tiananmen Square, Beijing’s central plaza, on 4 June 1989.
The date of 4 June remains one of China’s strictest taboos, and the Chinese government employs extensive and increasingly sophisticated resources to censor any discussion or acknowledgment of it inside China. Internet censors scrub even the most obscure references to the date from online spaces, and activists in China are often put under increased surveillance or sent on enforced “holidays” away from Beijing.
New research from human rights workers has found that the sensitive date also sees heightened transnational repression of Chinese government critics overseas by the government and its proxies.
#world
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“Never forget” is great and all but from a German perspective it seems to not be enough. It is much more important to make sure the same or very similar things do not happen again, not by China and not by any other nation. Otherwise you end up like we did here in Germany where decades of “never forget” lead to very similar sentiments being expressed by a new major party but since things are slightly different (e.g. the “never forget” was always phrased to be about Jews, this is more about foreigners in general) people seem to allow themselves to ignore them.
“Never again”:
Germans should be critical of Israel then.
why?
Genocide
how are the 2 genocides similar to eachother?
The capitalism capital of the world probably shouldn’t be preaching about human rights.
Tankie bot says what now? Get lost.
Every now and then I follow up and ask tankies what their actionable alternative is. They just never have one. Just making perfect the enemies of good. Tankies are deeply un-serious.
Best resource distribution (economic) model according to tankies: “Trust me bro”
I’d still rather have a more socialist society. Distribution based on markets means depriving those in need. Unfortunately tankies would rather leave vulnerable people to suffer the brutality of capitalism.
Shocking idea (this will blow your mind), but what if we dont fund a genocidal apartheid state? I mean not cut military aid by 30% or delay it three weeks, what if we just dont? What if we dont compromise with fascism?
If you abstain then you won’t have influence to stop funding genocide.
If you are serious please comment a real and actionable alternative.
The fact that voting inherently requires accepting fascism does not make fascism ok, it inherently makes liberal democracy fascist. As for a real and actionable alternative, building dual power through unions. Build communities from the bottom up to resist fascism and arm workers to prepare for eventual revolution.
I don’t see how that follows
I agree, but don’t you want to see some incremental progress for it in the mean time? We need political influence and tankies are just not good allies for it. Genocide is happening today. People are hungry and without medicine today. We can’t wait for a perfect revolution (those who wait are really just showing their privilege). Waiting for that also means leaving those you intended to help to die in the trenches. That in short is why I consider tankies un-serious.
I support the community building from the bottom up, but tankies are not doing that either. They are no shows on all fronts, and demoralizing our movements when we do try to do other things.
Agreed people are dying today, thats why we cant make these compromises. Compromising the lives of milliones of people based on what makes a bunch of privileged white liberals feel comfortable. Because right now only liberals are trying to equate the Palestinian Genocide with Palestinian resistance, thats what actural both sideism looks like.
Look I can tell you are semi tankie and just don’t want to help, but I will leave you with a semi personal and unrelated note. As a teen I first heard of UBI. I thought it was a bad idea. I sounded as if it was some sort of bribe. Like there is an understanding that capitalism sucks and instead of doing anything to fix society here is some cash to get you to shut up. I wanted a more permanent solution. I still do. But getting that cash in peoples hands today still helps our overall movement and provides relief to those suffering. Incremental progress to our goals matters. If we worked on growing the progressive wing in the dem party we would have more tools to limit the funding we give to Israel. You know what else? That gives us more space to build worker communities from the ground up as well.
And I mean this on all levels. From local elections to federal. We need more progressive policies to help us if we are going to move left. And so speak with you a bit directly Lenin ultimately did move to have political power to further his goals. Tankies not working to build a progressive moment where we can means we never move forward. I have not disagreed with you on anything, but you are not showing solidarity with me and leaving others like me alone to die without support.
There are things im willing to compromise on, basic human rights and the dignity of all workers are not among them. Liberation of workers in one region should not and and does not come at the expense of international workers liberation. I refuse to accept any system that bribes workers using the plunders of the global south. If that makes me a tankie than feel free to call me one.
And at no point where you being asked to compromise on that. You are being asked to do something tangible for people today, so that we can have a real leftist movement.
I understand this is a difficult topic (it is for me as well), but please re-read what I am saying sometime in the future when you are in a better state to understand what I am writing.
Boy, you sure did get 'em. No pointing out bad behavior unless your history is unblemished, I guess.
US history is a little more than unblemished, though. Hell, not even history. They are literally arming a genocidal state as we speak.
Don’t forget that they are literally being lead by a political movement named after the history denying idea that they were “great” at some point and want to get back to that (never mind the other lie that the leaders of the movement don’t actually want to get back to any particular point in history despite the name)
So is China.
Taiwan?
Whataboutism.
Lol you’re the type of imbecile who would cry about Palestine and American imperialism, but then turn around and say shit like this. Marxists are a joke.
You’re not making much sense.
I’m saying you have no moral consistency. Think about it, what purpose does your comment serve besides defending this massacre? You’re simply mad that are people are recognizing it as such, and you want to shut down the criticism by screaming hypocrisy, but that in of itself is hypocritical because if China came out and recognized the trail of tears for example, you would be ecstatic with joy. You wouldn’t be crying about how China shouldn’t preach about human rights due to their extensive record of human rights abuses.
China?
Never forget says country engaged in rewriting its own history.
Which country do you think The Guardian is from?
Things only come from murikkka. The American exceptionalism is rife.
England, a country absolutely dripping with revisionism.
FFS, the royal family of their Protestant breakaway nation is German Catholic.
wtf does the religion of the tourist-attraction royal family have to do with anything in 2025? are you from the middle ages?
theguardian.com/…/secret-papers-royals-veto-bills
Brits have no clue how powerful their monarchy remains.
This list also highlights how selfish they are.
Marxist ideology is fragile house of cards, where each card is a lie. Without fallacies, misinformation, and outright lies, Marxism will collapse in on itself. It’s an ideology that cannot be defend on it’s own merits which is why its brainless supports will cling on to any fallacy to distract them for the reality.
Here we go again, the fallacies fetishist. Good thing you’re there to show us the enlightened truth, genius.
As an American I think it’s helpful to put this into some sort of perspective.
Things the US won’t forget:
Things the US will forget:
Korean War (3mil civilian dead)
Vietnam War (2mil civilian dead)
Iraqi War (1mil civilian dead)
Violent overthrow of East Timor (widely considered a genocide)
Violent overthrow of Afghanistan (twice, over 1 mil dead)
Violent overthrow of Nicaragua
Violent overthrow of Grenada
Violent overthrow of Panama
Violent overthrow of Libya
Coup d’etat of Guatemala
Coup d’etat of Iran
Failed Coup d’etat of Syria
Failed Coup d’etat of Indonesia
Many failed Coup d’etat attempts on Cuba
Coup d’etat of Congo
Coup d’etat of Laos
Coup d’etat of the Dominican Republic
Coup d’etat of Iraq
Coup d’etat of Brazil
Successful Coup d’etat of Indonesia (1 mil dead)
Coup d’etat of Chile
Multiple Coup d’etat of Bolivia
Coup d’etat of Haiti
Multiple Coup d’etat attempts on Venezuela
Coup d’etat of Palestine
Mass civilian casualties, destabilization of many governments, people subject to a lifetime of torture without a trial, all under the War on Terror
This list could be so much longer, but I gotta get to work.
Most of that looks right, but
Ok, this was Indonesia, with murican quiet assent, but still, don’t give other countries a pass on these things to make them look clean.
Many of these also involved the local elites going to the US for help. e.g. The draft UN resolution for the no-fly zone in Lybia was produced by the Arab League and backed by the African Union, which pressured russia and China not to veto it.
It is not my intention to give other countries a pass. Indonesia is guilty of genocide in the case of East Timor; the US is guilty as well.
The genocide in East Timor is analogous to the ongoing genocide in Palestine.
Both genocides are not conducted by US personnel, but the majority of arms are supplied by the US. The US gives international legitimacy to the genocidal party, while running defense for it’s atrocities. The genocide in East Timor was ended by a phone call from the US president, and I am of the firm belief that the genocide in Gaza could be ended by a similar call. Previous Israeli atrocities were ended by calls from Reagan and Bush Sr.
Imagine thinking that the US has forgotten any of these when they’re a constantly pressure on the cultural zeitgeist even literal decades later. Or, for that matter, that the Korean War is in any way comparable.
Twice? Christ, tell me you aren’t talking about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Not to mention that the ‘overthrow’ of ‘Afghanistan’ the second time would rely on recognizing the Taliban, and not the democratically-oriented Northern Alliance which was fighting them at the time, as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
Yeah, just recently I rewatched Apocalypse Now. And I’ve never been to the U.S. or Vietnam. I agree, this is pretty much alive in cultural memory, not forgotten.
What’s ironic is that his list conveniently forgets China’s invasion of Vietnam 1979.
The “pressure on the cultural zeitgeist” you speak of is just “shoot, then cry”. The victims are forgotten.
Is it better to be drowned out than forgotten?
You’re joking right
Please tell me this is sarcasm bruh
Sorry, do you not remember who the de-facto leader of the Northern Alliance was?
The US gave the fucking country to the talibans omg
Not trying to be confrontational or pedantic (there’s enough bickering in here) but it’s important to state that the Korean War is quite literally called “The Forgotten War”. In fact, it’s more important to point out that it wasn’t even a War, but considered a “police action” that claimed the lives of up to 3 million civilians (link).
Council on Foreign Affairs
You can’t look at those statements and not make parallels to what’s going on in America today with the executive branch trying to sequester even more power. Ironically just recently saw a pretty decent video on the war by Mr. Beat
The War Americans Forgot About
edit: forgot an S
And we know the extent of US involvement in these coups and conflicts because the US declassified the info, becauase all info becomes declassified eventually.
When is the Dictatorship of China going to admit that this happened, when will they declassify the internal documents about this atrocity they were responsible for?
That’s the problem people have with the Chinese government. They can’t even acknowledge reality because they seek to eventually change the records of what really happened to pretend they did no wrong.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout
US declassification falls squarely into this domain. What gets released into the public record is enshrined as “The Truth” and what gets omitted is reserved to the domain of “Conspiracy Theory”. Thus a guy like Allen Dulles can sit on the committee that investigates the assassination of the President and author the copy that the CIA was in no way at fault or otherwise involved in the actions of a disgruntled former agent’s actions against the Chief Executive who personally fired Dulles three years earlier.
The Chinese Communist Party has its own version of Limited Hangout and goes to some length to assert that the riots in Tienanmen were the result of outside agitation, the civilian death toll was minimal, and the reforms that followed succeeded in restoring trust in the national government.
Westerners choose to ignore the official party line and rely on the equally unreliable narrations of participants who were fully opposed to the party, heavily invested in an insurgent opposition, and outspoken in their desire to abolish the CCP and have its leadership executed.
So you end up with a bunch of smug liberals denouncing Chinese state media as controlled, while regurgitating talking points that came straight out of the John Birch Society and the Falun Gong.
It’s propaganda all the way down. Nobody is giving you a complete and accurate picture of events. Any serious scholar must reconstruct events by bits and pieces, sifting through the enormous amounts of FUD. And when their work is completed… good luck finding it, because vanishingly few media moguls have an interest in promoting something that is insufficiently sensational.
I agree that declassification is a great thing, but it is not so black and white. Not all info becomes declassified eventually, so much is covered up and destroyed.
For example, much is known about the My Lai massacre in the Vietnam War. Most of this information is known due to declassified documents. But these declassified documents also mention that there were over 100 My Lai-level massacres that occured, most of which we know nothing about. Army Chief of Staff Westmoreland was quoted saying we do a “My Lai each month”.
One of the largest, codenamed Speedy Express, reportedly killed 11,000 people, and was covered up at the highest levels.
I don’t care about your whataboutism meant to deflect
When is the Chinese government going to admit that they were responsible for the Tiananmen Square Massacre?
If you can’t answer that then fuck off tankie
My best guess is that the Chinese government will admit fault long into the future, when most of the accountability and backlash has already faded into history.
Which is no different than how the US has handled many of the atrocities I mentioned.
When will the US acknowledge and release info on the 100s of Yemeni and Pakistani civilian targets that were destroyed by drone strike? When will the US release the warcrimes reports from the War on Terror? Does the US even still have these warcrimes reports, or were they destroyed (as whistleblowers and Amnesty International have suggested they were)?
If you can’t answer questions like these without resorting to cries of “Whataboutism”, then fuck off hypocrite.
We know the extent of US involvment in these coups and conflicts 50 years after they happened. What about the shit they’re doing RIGHT NOW?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
This makes perfect sense, it’s one thing for Taiwanese and Chinese people to remember it but its absolute hypocrisy for the west to comment. Especially as they fund the genocide in Gaza and Western Liberals make excuses for it.
It’d be a bit like if China and it’s entire sphere once a year went crazy commemorating the Kent State or Haymarket Massacre. They wouldn’t be wrong to say these are bad things, but it’d clearly be in service of some ulterior motive.
Agreed, dont throw stones from glass houses
The implied issue with that phrase is you risk your own glass house being pelted, correct? The glass house, in this case, being atrocities each government is implicated in?
I’m fine with all the atrocities being called out. Otherwise, how do we learn not to do them anymore?
I want to belive that people here genuenly call out atrocities everywhere but they dont, if you personally call out evil in every place it resides then I respect you.
Honestly, even with an ulterior motive, I see no reason they shouldn’t.
The thing is, only the US and West do this shit of constantly complaining about other countries and celebrating their historical tragedies every year. And it’s not a coincidence that they’re also the countries to invade and constantly engage in imperialism all around the world the most, and have the capacity to, with hundreds of military bases around the world.
It’s such obvious propaganda against foreign enemies, especially ones we want to fight. You think it would make it super obvious how propagandized Americans are, but they don’t see the hypocrisy at all because of that very propaganda.
What would be the point in China bringing up the Haymarket massacre or Kent state every year? And for that matter, what’s the point in the US bringing up the Tiannamen Square every year?
Glass houses indeed.
I know your question is rhetorical, but hypothetically China could do that with the aim of whipping up their population into hating the American government more, making them more willing to swallow local authoritarianism and foreign imperialism framed as national defense. That’s basically what the US is doing in the current arrangement, only reversed.
The US brings up its own horrible events all the time.
I learned about The Trail of Tears, the era of segregation, and of the KKK in my history class in America. We make conscious efforts to be aware of and criticize our own faults - as well as those of other nations.
There is currently LOTS of criticism of the US government for its participation in the massacre in Palestine. Claiming otherwise is lying. China is relatively unique in that it has committed atrocities, and refuses to allow anyone in its own country to acknowledge them. Both countries have done bad things. One country recognizes those facts and attempts to learn from them.
Did they talk about 1918, when the russian got sick of being used as cannonfodders, then america and germany suddenly made peace to league against the communists?
Just arrive at your point.
My point is the shit they apologized for is the tip of the iceberg.
Why should they care about atrocities committed 40 years ago in other countries? -_- That’s fucking weird
Weird? That sounds like a healthy interest in history to me.
Besides, if people had more interest in, for instance, how Nazis came to power 100 years ago, the political landscape in the US, Canada, and Europe might be a little healthier now.
No, it doesn’t. Only people who are full shit use and defend this fallacy. People who have principles call out shitty behaviors and actions whenever they see them, that’s because principles are universal. If you selectively choose when to apply them, then you don’t believe in them.
If you acturally call out genocide and shitty practices wherever you see it than its being principled. If you only call it out when a “bad” country does its hypocrisy, and tbh I have seen people do the later far more often while claiming the former.
Tell me, when Western Europe plunders the global south to subsidize their social programs do you complain? Or when the Zionist Occupation slowly takes more land away from the natives? What about the western funded dictators committing genocide across the third world and selling their nations for scraps?
Do you acturally call for freedom, an end to the exploitation, or do you demand a compromise? Do you demand native Palestinians give up half their land to the occupation? Africans half their resources to Europeans? And dictators to kill half as many minorities?
When somebody supports said “bad” countries, they’ll view any instance of these countries being called out for any shitty actions as hypocrisy. What this actually shows is that these people are in fact hypocrites themselves. If they were principled, then they would’ve acknowledged the shitty actions of whatever country is pointed out and moved on. Instead, they go on they go on the brainless rants that are filled with fallacies to distract from the original issue and dismiss criticism, misinformation, and endless crying about how the country being called out is a victim for the atrocity they committed. These rants don’t change the reality of the issue being raised originally.
This entire post is about western governments who are currently engaging in genocide calling out an event in China that if you look at the proper context is bad but not an atrocity
the Tiananmen Square Massacre,
yep, tankies gonna tank.
american kindergarteners have been through a tianannen square massacre before age 10 lmao
Least braindead Marxist
No the post is about the Chinese massacre.
By all mean call out genocide but it’s not relevant in post.
Don’t try to dismiss criticism of one massacre and its continuous censorship by bringing up another massacre.
Like how you selectively care about china’s students from 30 years ago but you don’t give a shit about the people your country’s killing right now
And who told you that I don’t? It’s funny how Marxists cannot defend their positions with lies, misinformation, and fallacies. Normal people don’t function like tankies, they call out atrocities wherever they seem and they acknowledge and condemn the atrocities of the past.
Your comment history did. A lot of whining about tankies, about how the US is so superior, not a word about all the shit your country is currently doing.
Go back and keep digging, I’m sure you’re just a scroll away from the ultimate gotcha that will surely justify you and your arguments from being dishonest. Maybe reply to a few dozen more of comments, that will surely help you.
I can critize and dislike the US involvement in Korea, the ongoing genocide in Gaza, AND the Tiananmen Square massacre.
I can rank which ones killed more people, but no one should be committing any crimes against humanity like these regardless of scale
Wow. Fascinating. Thanks for the link.
Yep that’s exactly my point, the US is doing Whataboutism when it issues these PR stunts to condemn Chinese atrocities.
“Whataboutism” can occasionally be an honest critique of a spurious argument.
When it’s just a link on it’s own, it’s almost always cover for hypocrisy.
Hey, hey, hey…
They at least got hit movies and TV shows! ;)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS*H_(film)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS*H_(TV_series)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platoon_(film)
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Metal_Jacket
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Beach
If I had a nickle for everyone who either stopped watching Full Metal Jacket after Lee Emery gets shot or watched the husks of men, who just got massacred by a child defending her home, marching through the burning town while singing children’s songs, and thanked the next veteran they met for fighting for freedom.
Allowing the government to be taken over by fascists makes any “remembering” of horrific events pretty meaningless anyway. In the context of government, not individuals.
People like you are evidence that Marxism is failed ideology that cannot be defended by it’s own merits. You know it’s a failure, which is why you resort to fallacies and misinformation.
Yeah, the amount of hatred Americans are fermenting on their own country is just mind-boggling. It’s like their number one wish in the world is to fail.
Don’t take this site as a reflection of the world. Lemmy in general is nothing more than a fringe echo chamber on the internet.
Which is nice, but it’s still sad to think that such sad creatures exist in the first place
WHATABOUT.
Name a more iconic duo than tankies and misinformation.
Americans and kindergarten mass shootings
That shit gets brought up all the fucking time, in their own threads. Notice how people don’t bring up Tiananmen Square, Taiwan, Tibet, Hong Kong, the Uyghurs, or the many other atrocities the CCP has committed whenever an American atrocity gets mentioned.
Your comment ignores the context that the US is doing anti-Chinese propaganda here, and there is no parity.
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and China was releasing PR statements on every anniversary of every US atrocity. They would still be issuing multiple statements every day.
China is also doing anti-American/anti-West propaganda. It’s just favored differently because of different cultural values of the target audience. Still stinks the same.
How is the US doing “anti-Chinese propaganda”?
Every time the US president says “CHAYYYNNA”, I consider that anti-Chinese propaganda.
What? What that fuck are you talking about and how is it relevant to the tiananmen square massacre?
It isn’t relevant. I’m just making fun of your president.
I don’t have a president.
Really? Could that be because china isn’t carpet bombing civilians?
All the fucking time? Really? When was the last time the Coup d’état against Aristide was discussed around here?
Post about it on it’s anniversary then. Don’t bring it up as a whataboutism in unrelated threads.
I didn’t bring up anything, the comment you responded to did. My comment was my first intervention in this thread and I was responding to you specifically. You said that things like that get brought up all the time. I am asking you for the receipts. When was the Haitian coup d’état brought up before today?
Add to the list the US support of the Israeli war crimes currently going on in Gaza. Just yesterday they vetoed a ceasefire and delivery of aid proposition in the UN.
Hey, the difference is, you can post this list here, and nothing will happen to you.
Become a Chinese citizen, and then post that single bullet item about the TS incident in China, on a Chinese social media. Then see what happens.
That may be true, but it doesn’t excuse the list at all.
My country is responsible for the majority of international violence since WWII. I find that morally unacceptable.
I make posts like this because I want my country to do better. But the sad reality is we have yet to learn our lesson. We have been aiding and abetting an ongoing Holocaust for almost two years now.
You could pick so many more things to criticize China for especially from its past, verifiable events, yet the west always picks Tiananmen Square, making sure to pick the image of the guy standing in front of the tank, but somehow always forgets to show the video of the guy climbing on top of the tank, asking soldiers to turn around to where the protesters are, and somehow forget mentioning that literally half the casualties were soldiers that were set ablaze. Even diplomatic cables at the time either leaked or declassified prove that.
Whataboutism
The most intriguing alt-history stuff I’ve read about it was that the protesters were “lefties” protesting the Dengist attempts at liberalization and confucianist reform, because in one of the videos the protesters were singing socialist anthems e.g. 1st international. It looked like the last gasp of the cultural revolution. But I’m not sure how to check any of this (certainly not from the Chinese archives and the rest of the world only has videos…and the cables you mention), it’s probably just another bullshit story to cover up what happened.
oh, so because hundreds of people were killed in the streets just outside the square, that’s alright then, no need to mention it, let’s keep defending the authoritarian state, huh.
the DW article does mention that most of the killings were on the streets outside the square.
you disingenuously cherry-picked your quote to imply there was no massacre at all.
with your demonstrated level of respect for human life, it’s entirely unsurprising that you admire authoritarian violent regimes.
It actually matters where people died because in the square there were unarmed student protesters and outside the square were armed workers battling it out with military which resulted in an almost even split in casualties between workers and military. A massacre entails armed people rounding up unarmed people and just straight up slaughtering people.
www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-42465516
“The Chinese army crackdown on the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests killed at least 10,000 people, according to newly released UK documents.
The figure was given in a secret diplomatic cable from then British ambassador to China, Sir Alan Donald.
The original source was a friend of a member of China’s State Council, the envoy says.
Previous estimates of the deaths in the pro-democracy protests ranged from several hundred to more than 1,000.”
The Tiananmen square massacre is a verified event. We literally have videos and pictures documenting the entire massacre. How much of an idiot do you have to be to believe low level Chinese propaganda about this being fake or a good thing?
So where are said videos of the massacre happening
In his dreams, along with destroying the three gorges dam and not seeing the irony in pretending to care about civilians.
I’ve seen images and footage put out by journalists. I’m just not bothered to re-locate them for the sake of a tankie.
the guy was blocking the tanks from leaving tiananmen square too <img alt="blobfox, blobfoxangrylaugh" src="https://blahaj.zone/files/cea11f2a-5736-406c-ab9c-c156253edf6e">
Let’s not forget Faris Odeh
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faris_Odeh
A picture of Odeh standing alone in front of a tank, with a stone in his hand and arm bent back to throw it, was taken by a photojournalist from the Associated Press on 29 October 2000. Ten days later, on 8 November, Odeh was again throwing stones at Karni when he was shot in the neck by an Israeli soldier.
Why would any kid throw stones at armed soldiers? Where were his parents?
careful, that doesn’t fit the narrative
Murdered by Israelis one would assume.
And your assumption is wrong. If you read the article, you’ll see that his parents were alive and well at the time, and so were his 8 other siblings. Apparently this kid developed a habit of doing dangerous stunts like this, and father used to severely beat him many times as a way to deter him from doing more stunts in the future. Shockingly, physical abuse didn’t work, and he ended up being killed by doing another dangerous stunt in the future.
So why did you ask a question you know the answer to?
It was a rhetorical question
This isn’t high school debate club
This isn’t the remark you think it is, you’re just showing everybody that you’re intellectually less capable than a high schooler because you think rhetorical questions are some sort of advanced technique.
Ah yes it’s the kid fault.
You’re an utter piece of shit lmao. I’ll take my chance with the tankie thank you very much
Killed by Israeli.
Actually if you read the article, you would see that this is in fact false, but that won’t stop you from spreading misinformation
Well u did not pay attention to story and see how powerful the picture is. So to make u read the wiki, I had to fill some disinformation about his parents. U fell for it. Lol
“Where are his parents”. Where are your buddy
I’m sure you think of yourself as this
Uhh Zionist got butt hurt. Could not come up with something?
Definitely smarter than you. Just looking at how logic works in your brain.
>spreads misinformation
>gets called out for it
>“no no it was a 4d chess move to make you look dumb, I’m full of shit I swear”
Yeah okay buddy
Bye. Good luck with your life. If you think that is how world works.
Not contesting there was a violent crackdown, but didn’t the video for this moment end with the tank just stopping the entire time, the briefcase guy climbing onto the tank, then getting shuffled away by fellow civilians?
Everyday we see way worse shit happening on the streets of the US. Somehow the crackdown back then on anti-communist academics is an enshrined moment, but people on our streets getting arrested, detained, or killed is just business as usual.
And we also act like our country doesn’t call academics “indoctrinated”, beat the living crap out of both students and academics, and doesn’t want to kill them. Amazing.
They weren’t “fellow civillians”.
x.com/carlzha/status/1134582926325104641
Those “fellow civillians” weren’t civilians, they were secret police. So I don’t know what good does the video do.
Have you tried actually confirming that?
Have you tried not being a tankie and thinking for a second, or actually doing your own research?
The were about 8000 people killed iirc. I once saw on reddit a link to a photo archive of the day and especially night. There were some very explicit photos. Like intestines falling out of opened bellies and bodies with half a head left.
I think I know the pictures you mean and those were PLA soldiers lynched by the mob before the tanks started rolling in.
Pretty sure the range is unknown to this day, and 8k is incredibly excessive. The British ambassador that claimed 10k revised it to around 3k and even that was high compared to corroborating reports
If it’s condensed down to a day then it’s easy to bleat about it since you can point to a single day “where it all happened”. If you spread out the injustice, like instituting unjust laws bill-by-bill, increasing police funding, and ramping up media rhetoric on how crime is out of control and that we need politicians who are “tough on crime” then you get something like the most imprisoned population on Earth, but there isn’t a single focal point to point at, instead multiple contributing factors, so it doesn’t stick out as much.
Agreed, I was hoping to bring attention to the fact that beyond a short attention span, you’d see comparable if not exceeding levels of historic violence
You’re actually delusional if you think anything like the Tiananmen square massacre is happening in the US today.
Its far worse, seppoland has actual concentration camps at the border and
secretplainclothes police disappearing people into torture prisons in foreign countries. Also funding, arming and running political cover for a genocide. Why just today it vetoed a UN resolution calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. And thats just whats currently going on off the top of my head.If we look at US history however we can find stuff like throwing a bomb on their own civilians and just one genocide after another.
Boy tankies will literally anything out of their ass to justify their false narratives.
No, the reality is that you cannot come up with any examples like this massacre so you’re trying to cope with any random thing you slap on. Come back to me when you have an example of the federal government giving direct orders to massacre anything that moves during a massive civilian protest (pro tip: you can’t).
Trying to argue that the US today is worse than China today or even back then, is the definition of arguing in bad faith. Just about every index and measurement shows that China is way more authoritarian, and to the CCP human rights isn’t even a subject of debate, it’s more like a loose guideline that should be applied selectively.
If you really want to get into history, then literally nothing in history matches the insane death toll of communist China. Mao is literally history’s biggest killer by a big margin, and his reign has resulted in the worst man made disasters ever. From illegally occupying to Tibet to putting the Uyghurs in “reeducation camps” to stealing islands in the South China sea from the Philippines to massacring civilians peacefully protesting to literal demicides to the worst man made famine in history, and so much more. Your ignorance on the history of China is expected, but also still embarrassing
For the record, unlike you mouthbreathers, I actually acknowledge the bad things the US has done and does, because I actually have principled. I know you don’t have any, otherwise you wouldn’t be showcasing yourself as a hypocrite and a clown for everyone to see in attempt to distract from a basic criticism of the Chinese government.
You can’t just make up shit. The soldiers weren’t given orders to “murder anyone that moves” or else the tank would’ve run that guy over. Where did you get that? They just looked at each other for awhile. I don’t think anyone even died in Tiannamen Square itself. Battles happened in other parts of the city as soldiers defended themselves, though. It wasn’t peaceful like you said earlier, soldiers died. Not that I think every protest necessarily has to be, or should be, peaceful, but at least get the facts straight.
And of course similar things happened in the US. We bombed an apartment building. There was the Kent shootings, the Haymarket massacre, Whiskey Rebellion, the incident in Waco, the assassination of Fred Hampton, hell, cop shootings happen every year. Not to mention hundreds of years of slavery where who knows how many were killed.
And no, Mao is not worse than Hitler. Mismanagement leading to famines is bad and the Cultural Revolution went too far in some places, and China acknowledges those mistakes btw, but they don’t compare to the targeted genocides, holocaust, and wars of Hitler. And most of those things you said weren’t even Mao. Plus, the US has done all those things of illegally occupying places (that’s how we got a bunch of states like Hawaii or Texas, as well as territories later like the Philippines), we did more than re-education camps of Native Americans, we killed them all and are now helping Israel do their own genocide and occupation in the present day, we have basically taken over the sea in the whole world and kill people who don’t agree (like Yemeni civilians), and have military bases all over including places they don’t want us (like Guantanamo Bay in Cuba), and have massacred civilians protesting peacefully as I said above, and helped other countries do the same, and have people under-fed and poverty stricken in the richest nation in the world.
You say you acknowledge the bad the US has done and then ignore all of them to make it sound like China is the worst places to have ever existed, at the same time an ongoing genocide is happening facilitated by the US. All you’ve proved is you consume propaganda uncritically and without context.
Tank man stood in front of the tank on June 5th, the massacre happened on June 4th.
What was that again about me making shit up? It sounds to me like you’re getting high off you’re own supply.
You know what, that’s a good idea. Let’s get the facts straight, shall we? Go ahead and post your sources that actually support your claims. Shouldn’t be a hard thing to do if they’re facts like you say. I’ll be waiting.
Lol you really had to do mental gymnastics to come up with any examples at all. I mean you had to go all the back to 1791 to the Whiskey Rebellion (if we’re going back that far then look up the Taiping Rebellion) to find something and then used the Waco Seige of the Branch Davidians cult as an example. The only relevant example you have is the Kent state shooting, and even that’s from 1970 and only 4 people were killed. Even then, I’m honest enough to acknowledge that this event was indeed bad and should be condemned.
Highly debatable. Mao has a very good case to top Hitler. He killed way more people and he was just as ruthless. Mao tops Hitler as the worst dictator of the 20th century.
Somewhere between 40 and 80 million people died under Mao’s reign. That can’t brushed off with an “oopsies”. Also, China still hails this guy as a national hero even though his successor, Deng Xiaoping (who’s responsible for the Tiananmen square massacre), had to literally do a de-Maoization like Khrushchev did with de-Stalinization to save the country from collapse.
Don’t get it twisted, Hitler is one of the most evil men in history. There’s a reason why he reached infamy in history. I’m just pointing out that he wasn’t without rivals during the 20th century, and Mao is one of the very few people with a legitimate case as being the shittiest human of that century.
Wow, you are slow. It’s not a competition. The reason why I brought up those things about China was to demonstrate no matter what examples are brought up about the US, China has an endless bag of atrocities to match or even exceed. That’s not the point because nobody is arguing which country has the worse history, the point of contention was that the person that I replied to originally claimed that the US today is worse than China today when it comes to things like Tienanmen Square massacre and their examples had no relevance to their claim at all.
You don’t need to have a ledger of condemnations so tankies can be satisfied with their perceived proportionate amount of criticism being applied towards China or any country. If an event is worthy of criticism then it should be criticized, simple as. If you’re seething over people condemning an atrocity and drowning yourself in fallacies like whataboutism, then there’s a good chance you either support the atrocities or the entity responsible for committing them.
If you made a post about the Kent State shooting, for example, right now on Lemmy or anywhere else really, you’re not going to get a hoard of Americans or non Americans in the comments crying about “BuT wHaT aBoUt ChInA hYpOcRiTeS?!?”, they’re just going to condemn the event and move on… as they should. But when it comes to doing the same thing for a country like China or Russia, you will always get a hoard of tankies defending the reprehensible acts and crying hypocrisy… even though they themselves are hypocrites.
Can you quit doing holocaust trivialisation? Attrocities have been commited under every ideologies (wanna talk about Congo?). Nazis were the only ones with the explicit goal of ethnic purity
Pointing out other atrocities in history that are just as, if not more horrific, is not trivialization. The Holocaust is one of the worst events in history, no doubt about it. That being said there are other atrocities in history that have reached that levels in either ruthlessness, death toll, or both. Ignoring the other atrocities in history would just be us trivializing them.
Yes, they have, and yes, we should talk about them. Belguim’s atrocities in the Congo aren’t talked about nearly enough.
No, this is false. The idea of ethnic purity is something that has been around for a long time. The only unique thing about the Nazis was that they industrialized mass killings while carrying out their genocides.
Jesus Fuck, you tankies are god damned children with your logic. More than one thing can be, and in fact are and have been and will be, bad while other things have happened that are also just as bad, if not worse, while not diluting other events, you get that, right? There is more than one atrocity you should be aware of throughout history and every government has been objectively fucking awful, stop sucking so much authoritarian dick. You fuckers are kowtowing cowards.
China doesn’t have a penn state day, idiot.
Also china isn’t arming a genocide right now
Penn state? Wtf are you talking about?
Yes, they are. They’re arming Russia’s genocide in Ukraine and they’re also carrying out their own genocides in both Tibet and Xinjiang.
Non-sense. Mao just got rid of white-wingers. You’re just scared because you know you deserve it lmao
No. The US is not currently outright massacring citizens.
Could it happen? Sure. Is it happening? No.
They’re massacring palestinians citizens.
At least chineses are doing that to themselves. The US just bombs brown people with both side of the “PolItCicAL SpecTruM” applauding themselves for bringing democracy
Gonna need a source of two there, chief.
youtu.be/2Oq2k066A1w
Couple of good sources in this summary here.
Well I gave it a go, but the very first argument was a straw man, so I didn’t have the energy to filter through 30 minutes of biased, disingenuous and amateurish documentary. If you could give me some readable sources, from credible sources, that would be great. You’ve made a lot of extraordinary claims in your original comment…
Shithead lib refuses to learn. Surprising.
Cretin
.ee s are meant to be smarter than this.
“Trust me bro”
what an elaborate fantasy.
You might be enjoying your creative writing class a little too much
I think you’ve been sucking CIA propaganda cock a little too much.
>consumes nothing but propaganda
> literally make up things as you go
> people call you out on it
> everybody else is clearly brainwashed except you
Sure thing, bud
This is you? Interesting. That’s ok bud, I’m sure the CIA loves their little internet soldiers 🩷 fucking retard.
I'm confused, I thought June 5th was the taboo 'tank day'?
The massacre was on June 4th, and Tank Man was on the 5th. The involvement of the military lasted several days and the protests had been going on for a couple months.
US currently working on ways to top it.
That’s exactly what I was thinking. I feel like we’re months away at most
Timing will be important. They’ll want the big violence to break out next summer, so he can declare Martial Law, and suspend the 2026 Midterm election.
America has never missed an election, even during the Civil War. Suspending an election is a big, bright red, flashing line. They do that, and it’s on for real.
It’s already on for real. Hypernormalization is a bitch. That might shock us all for an afternoon but we’d be back to the same discourse a week later.
The death toll of Tiannenmen riots is around 300. You would think it was 300.000 from the amound of posts we see about it.
Current casualty count in Gaza is about 200 times higher than Tiannenmen.
I just mean to say I don’t see any sort of barrier preventing the US government from sending the military in to massacre its own civilians
Meanwhile Oklahoma telling kids the 2020 election was rigged under state law.
Tankies and whataboutism, name a more iconic duo (pro tip: you can’t)
You say whataboutism, I say hypocrisy.
I say, why not both?
Whataboutism is literally the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy. It’s a fallacy because the appeal is done in place of a proper argument that addresses the original issue. The very purpose of this fallacy is to distract from the original issue and to dismiss criticism without ever addressing it by bringing up something irrelevant to the topic at hand and accusing others of hypocrisy.
The point isn’t to distract, it’s to provide context so the accuser can’t create an inaccurate framing. The atomic unit of propaganda isn’t lies, it’s emphesis.
If every week, a right-wing German posted about how many gays Britain murdered, imprisoned, or castrated during the 40s, it would be borderline deceitful for other lemmy users not to provide the full context of what Germany was doing to gays at that time (and what West Germany continued to do until the 1970s).
Same deal when we get the occasional zionist talking about the plight of gay Palestinians. Yes, they have their own struggle, but there is a very specific and obvious purpose behind a zionist bringing it up.
You’re being dishonest. You didn’t provide any context or made any remark regarding framing or context. In fact, you made no argument at all. You just brought up an entirely irrelevant subject for the sole purpose to distract from the original issues and dismiss the criticism being brought up by appealing to hypocrisy. It’s literally the textbook definition of the fallacy.
This is a good example, you’re exactly like them in this case.
The subject is “whataboutism”, or when people bring up similar, but far worse things done by liberal institutions in response to supporters of liberal institutions accusing communists of doing bad things to show that the supporter of the liberal institution doesn’t actually give a shit about the event they’re crying about and is simply using it as a pretext to justify hostility against that communist state, victims included.
That’s a wild assumption you just made up based on literally nothing. But the fact that you need to make up such assumptions is ironic, because it shows that yourself are a hypocrite. You support these atrocities and the regimes who committed them and so you perceive people calling out these acts as unjustified “hostility” rather warranted criticism. Since you’re admitting that you don’t actually care about the atrocities being committed, that means the only purpose you would bring up anything to do with “liberal institutions” is to be fallacious, which is exactly the case here.
The entire purpose of bringing up entirely irrelevant subjects is to distract from the original issue and dismiss criticism. There’s no context, there’s no argument, there’s no point. You’re simply mad that the regime you support is being criticized and as a desperate attempt to divert attention away from the criticism, you bring up irrelevant topics and accuse people of being hypocrites for their criticism of the original topic… even that doesn’t negate the validity of their criticism whatsoever.
When people call you out on your fallacious argumentation, they’re telling that the logic you’re using is inconsistent. If you’re actually ignorant enough to not understand what the fallacies are or why they’re bad then that’s a different issue, but if you’re aware what they are and why they’re bad and still choose to be annoyed then that means you’re disingenuous. It means you’re arguing in bad faith from the get go, which is an indication that the beliefs you are trying to defend are flawed to the point where you can’t defend them on their own merits.
Given the total lack of knowledge surrounding any of the events in question or the people affected, it is blatantly obvious that the “criticism” begins and ends with “<insert communist country> bad!”
The average ML has studied how/why such actions occurred and the response beyond the childish “dey did it coz authoritarianism!” that libs end their analysis at, because our interest isnt limited to its utility as hostile evidence.
When a country does a bad thing, then that thing is indeed bad. It’s fairly straight forward. Your persecution fetish isn’t going to change the reality. You’re not a victim, neither are the communist countries who committed these atrocities. Just because you’re soulless ghoul who supports these atrocities, that doesn’t means others do as well. This might be shocking to you, but most people don’t have ideological brainrot. They call out bad things when they see them. That’s called consistency.
But that’s something you lack, because if you had consistency then you wouldn’t need to use fallacies. You would just defend your positions by their own merits, but you can’t do that so you become dishonest. Even now, instead of just taking the high road and saying “these events were atrocities and I condemn them” like a decent human being, you do the opposite by still defending them. You don’t seem to understand there is no justification for them. The fact that you are trying to justify them is direct evidence of your ignorance.
At no point did I try to justify any atrocity, I simply supplied context that pissed off liberals because it required more nuance to interpret than their thought-terminating clichés supplied. Which really was rude, feel free to ignore me and go back to “china ran 100,000 people over with tanks for peacefully asking for freedom like we have, because thats just what
terroristsauthoritarians do.”What fucking context lmao? You literally provided nothing. There’s no sources, no arguments, no explanations, no points, absolutely zero context was provided. The only things you did do was make false assumptions and use fallacious reasoning to justify using logical fallacies. That’s not context, that’s trying to justify poor critical thinking skills.
Americans are the one doing whataboutism lmao. China killed a bunch of student in the 80ies? Big whoops, america is sending tanks to a genocide right now.
<img alt="" src="https://endlesstalk.org/pictrs/image/d8788eb7-6729-4264-a968-56afb7649ed5.jpeg">
The hypocrisy is real
Whataboutism is the appeal to hypocrisy fallacy you moron. That’s literally what you’re doing.
I cannot imagine being such a miserable, evil, and braindead moron that I would say shit like this. You’re scum.
It’s not a phallacy if the hypocrisy is real, idiot. You’re american. You’re whining about a thing that happened 50000km from your place, 40 years ago. Meanwhile, your country is sending litteral tanks to a genocide. Yet you whine about other people being TanKiEs.
Idiots redditor using phAllAciEs as if they were pokemon cards. Classic & cringe.
How to spot a shill for state propaganda.
Ah yes, the state is paying me to call out idiots on Lemmy for using fallicious argumentation and inconsistent logic. Which state is paying me? Who knows, but that’s the fun of making up random baseless accusations when you have nothing of value to provide.
Do you dingleberries even understand what you’re saying?
Let’s also note that whatever you think of so-called tankies, lemmy world is the only instance documented as having harbored an actual terrorist.
Sometime whataboutism is warranted, when the pot is calling the kettle black.
Kinda like a guy calling archlinux nazi is a godwin point. Calling a genocidal state nazi is just an accurate description.
When Whataboutism is Fallacious:
When Whataboutism is NOT Fallacious:
So while you’re right that there are cases when it’s a valid argument, this is not one of those cases. In this case, OP of this comment thread didn’t provide an argument or add context or even made a point. Their whataboutism goes through fallacies like a check list. Therefore, their usage is fallacious in this case.
Nice little list you got there. Do you have it written on cheatcards? I bet you look at them before going to sleep so you can win the lemmy debate club the next day?
The whataboutism is americans whining about what china did 30 years ago while arming a genocide right now. Quit playing dumb.
Imagine being so slow that you think being proud of your intellectually dishonesty and poor comprehension is some sort of flex
Stay mad lol
Why is it being written as “date of 4 June”?
There’s a whole world outside of the US.
That didn’t answer my question. Is it the new lemmy thing to fuck with Americans for asking questions? I thought that was unique to Reddit but I guess not.
I guess us Americans will be stuck being stupid because non Americans refuse to answer questions to make a point that Americans are stupid.
You have the opportunity to learn something and instead you throw a tantrum
I literally asked the question. I don’t know non US date formatting. I know this story didn’t originate in China so it can’t be Chinese date formatting. We have the guardian in the Us as well but this formatting is not from the US. I am actively trying to learn something. A simple answer like “XYZ country formats their dates this way”. If you don’t know not answering would have been fine but the condescending response isn’t helpful.
It amuses me the amount of effort you’ve put into this instead of just simply googling the answer
i’ll bite… Almost all countries aside from America format their dates like this.
My favorite thing to do is to watch liberals read the (very western biased) Wikipedia article on this event. The moment when they realize how many soldiers were killed before the crackdown is always radicalizing for those with even a modicum of intellectual curiosity.
I only see wiki reference 10 soldiers having died - is this the number you’re referring to?
Do you think that’s alot? In my head that’s disproportionately few compared to the [disputed] 100s of civilians that the Chinese government declared dead
According to the linked page with PLA/PAP casualties, there were 15 verifiable deaths (PRC official number is 23). Half of them weren’t directly caused by the protesters, and the other half occurred after troops first opened fire. Truly, I feel quite radicalized.
Can you share that link? I’m curious how the 7 “non directly caused by protesters” died. They just had a random accident? Lovers quarrel? Food poisoning?
PLA/PAP Casualties
Summary is a truck flipped over, supposed friendly fire incident with a non-uniformed soldier, and a heart attack.
Consider yourself both radicalised and owned liberal! /s
This sounds like how conservatives rationalize the Kent State massacre by claiming that the protesters were throwing feces.
You’re not radicalized. You just switched which authoritarian you swear fealty to.
It would be different if the protesters had lynched a dozen soldiers before they responded.
Of course given the context of the Vietnam war, the soldiers wouldn’t have been justified even if the protesters killed some of them first; you don’t get to claim self-defense when you yourself are only there to put down a protest against imperialism.
I guess the Chinese soldiers were minding their own business at home with their families, and not there to just put down protests against authoritarianism.
See the big difference is the US was murdering countless Vietnamese to keep them under the boot of capitalism. The protesters in Tienanmen aren’t as black and white. If the protesters were protesting China poisoning the food supply and massacring countless villages of country on the other side of the planet to keep a country’s resources easy to exploit and their people’s blood ready to be spent keeping other countries under the boot of capitalism, it would be that simple, but they weren’t.
Also “against authoritarianism” lmao you are a literal child.
Most rational people oppose authoritarianism.
Here, it’ll take two minutes to read this. I’m not even going to get into the contexts “authoritarianism” is and isn’t used today (hint: liberals use it and see no hypocrisy).
Yeah Engels take on authoritarianism is dated and not really valid given that his ideologies do not result in anything other than authoritarian states IRL.
do you think this is convincing, compelling? it is not.
it totally equates the democratic delegation of agency to elected delegates for a specific term and purpose with permanent subservience.
it’s an attack on strawmen, and you’re a born bootlicker if you’re this easily swayed into cheerleading for authoritarians.
Always funny to hear people call folks in China brainwashed and then have this “I’ll never deviate from the American Party line” when it comes to foreign affairs.
Brains like a steel trap. Nothing gets in.
lmao i’ve never been near the usa, swing and a miss, bootlicker.
can guarantee i’ve done more for working people as a union steward and negotiator than you ever will as a terminally online whiner.
Ah yes that must be why so many people revolt while the west is sliding into fascism /s
“Chinese government killed their own people, it’s fine! They are basically property”
I’m always curious to compare how Americans view the Tianemen Square incident with Waco.
Like, if you ask an American to explain what happened at Waco, you’ll get a bunch of blank stares. A few people with anti-government views will explain how a religious community was ruthlessly butchered by the Gestapo-like FBI. A few people with anti-religious views will insist this was a child sex cult that committed suicide while the FBI tried to help.
But for the most part, those Americans who remember it just see it as another normal police action against people who were probably committing all sorts of crimes.
You could also talk about the BLM protests from '14 to '18, and how the broad American view was that this was police acting to protect private property. And maybe some of the protesters didn’t deserve such rough treatment, but hey they knew what they signed up for when they blocked traffic.
But the views on Tianemen are uniform. Chinese killed that nice man with their tank and then killed everyone else in the city and then covered it up in a way only people in China are unaware it happened.
Wasn’t the problem that their families were part of the protesters? That’s why reinforcements from outside the city (without family ties) were called in.
Reminds me of Hillsborough and “some fans”.
<img alt="" src="https://jlai.lu/pictrs/image/32adcb01-84ed-4b92-bdf0-41891d5b609c.jpeg">
According to the official numbers there were ten civilians killed for every state agent of oppression.
I upvoted you, but a source for that statistic would still be nice.
The wikipedia article on the incident was my source.
That’s a pretty big article.
en.wikipedia.org/…/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests…
Can you be more specific? Then I can confidentiality repeat your fact.
“On 19 June, Beijing Party Secretary Li Ximing reported to the Politburo that the government’s confirmed death toll was 241, including 218 civilians (of which 36 were students), 10 PLA soldiers, and 13 People’s Armed Police, along with 7,000 wounded”
under “Death Toll”
Thanks
Killing the villainous authoritarian ork creature CCP is always virtuous and good and needs to be celebrated.
Stopping a tank in front of an unarmed bicyclist until police pull him out of the way is unforgivable genocide.
I had to do it, these people don’t even read their own fake sources.
Liberals are hardly better than the conservatives in the US. They all seem to be naive right wingers.
Was genuinely thinking of walking in front of Trump’s military parade.
The west sends literal tanks to a genocide RIGHT NOW but some “leftists” are whining about what the USSR did 50 years ago. Yeah very convincing
<img alt="" src="https://endlesstalk.org/pictrs/image/f97761f7-942f-4157-a074-71afd46b97f8.jpeg">
This was china, not USA. Get your history straight. And yes, fuck china, russia & USA.
The picture isn’t china, idiot
Wait, how is this always about “leftists”?
When did the fucking Guardian become a left wing periodical?
Uuuh from the start?
These are liberals dude. Anyone left of Reagan is literally Stalin in their eyes. They’re political goldfish. Gotta handle them as such.
If I had a dollar for every liberal who called Donald Trump a communist…
A prime example of liberals proudly not understanding anything. They earned the title of bluemaga.
The Guardian has plenty of coverage of US culpability in the Palestinian genocide.
Maybe I’ll take Taiwan’s word on this one…
Whatever the US says, you just know it’s posturing hypocritical bullshit
I’m surprised trump didnt try to give Taiwan away by tweet yet
downvotes are from tankies
This is just my personal experience:
~I was talking to a few young Chinese. They were after born after the massacre happened.~
“Why are Hong Kong people are so full of themselves and rebellious? They think they are better? (Derogatory comments…”, cheating among themselves, happily.
I couldn’t help and interrupted, “Some young promising Hong Kong students were murdered, beaten and kidnapped under the mainland China. You can’t blame them for not being defensive.”
Immediately they resorted to their memorised response, “Do you have any resources to back up what you said? The official death count was zero.”
Of course there was no “official” news resources. China suppresses the news media.
"It is the same as Tiananmen massacre. You won’t find any “official resources " but everyone knows people were killed.”
Another one retorted, “The official number is zero. What official resources you have to backup your claim?”
It was useless to talk anymore at that moment. I left. My encounter probably would be on their “report.”
I find it pretty rare to meet Chinese people like that. Most of the ones I meet know that stuff happened isn’t that the government covered it up but they don’t think that the government covering things up is all that unusual or newsworthy.
Never forget when the CIA organised an armed color revolution which resulted into people shooting at the Chinese military. The clashes outsider of the square, not on it as the name suggests, resulted in a total of around 300 deaths.
Tiananmen has to be the dumbest propaganda pount because it is so incredibly easy to debunk for anyone who has basic access to a search machine. The CIA literally admitted they backed the riots.
The sheer hypocrisy of posting this while the American government is arming a live streamed genocide with over 60.000, likely more than 200.00p killed.
Yeah, everything bad is the CIA’s fault! A one-party dictatorship would never violently suppress dissent, and anyone saying otherwise is a paid shill!
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/217225cb-93d7-4d73-9013-08fa98600fe5.jpeg">
“Students” hahaha. Nice of you to leave out that the rioters started attacking the police first and literally burned police officiers alive. The peaceful protesters at the square were not attacked.
There are actual events you can point to in which China represses their population. This is probably the dumbest one because extreme restraint was shown from the Chinese authorities.
If it was America the guy blocking the tank from leaving the square would have been run over. And you would probably be screaming fafo.
Yeah! They had it coming! The police acted with the utmost restraint when they brought tanks to a protest, and America totally would have done worse than bringing tanks to a protest and totally would have ran protestors over with said tanks!!!
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/9851a82f-788c-4428-b456-70a1b46e147a.jpeg">
Oh no he pulls out the image implying that the tank ran over a protester on the square!
But he forgets that there is a video
Of a man who blocks tanks driving away from the square… and… climbing on top of a military vehicle!!!
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dac55d3c-04c3-4823-9b8d-7ac58d8debfe.png">
What do you think would happen in America to someone who climbed on top of a tank and opened the hatch? And even still, he did not get shot but simply escorted away. Amazing.
He got carried away and never saw again you fucking brainlet
Do you know who it is?
Of course we don’t know his name, he got disappeared by a dictatorship. In a free country, we would know his name and he would be a powerful symbol of dissent against the government. Instead, he was erased as a human.
Never seen again means: nobody saw him again. This means you would know who it is. Which you do not. If the army wanted to run him over they would have simply run him over.
Another brain washed CCP admirer from Xi’s $0.50 Army. The CCP murdered over 70 million people, who disagreed, since 1920 and the number continues to rise.
Love the propaganda around this. Its very dramatic and all. But here in the west its held up as some big thing. The rest of the video never gets played.
You should(n’t) see the gruesome pictures. China is likely very happy that the tank man picture became famous when there were LOADS of other horrible images .
Especially this video where the ‘students’ hijacked a tank and fired it.
That video is really low res. Do you have any sources that prove that the moving object is a tank and that the people are students?
But honestly it doesn’t really matter because running over people because they are protesting a dictatorship is fucking gruesome.
en.wikipedia.org/…/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests…
Good old peaceful demonstration strikes again. Luckily those students were not doing anything violent such as holding up a Palestine flag. Then the US media would tell us how violence against them is fully justified
Nice use of selective quoting, the situation had already escalated at that point. From your source, one paragraph before yours:
And, from the beginning of the section:
Who could’ve guessed that people turn violent when you start shooting them 😱
My argument was related to the APC. Which is factually true.
Your quote however is very selective.
Has anyone claimed that the protests were entirely peaceful? Of course some turn violent when you roll in with your army and riot police gun blazing.
And thanks for confirming that it wasn’t a tank.
There really are no excuses for the killing of dozens if not hundreds of civilians and protestors.
And the protests were entirely peaceful to begin with but of course China couldn’t let that continue.
The censorship of the event also speaks a great deal about who’s fault it is.
The protesters on the square did not get shot. The Western media confirms nobody of the peaceful protesters on the square got killed.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/428f13c3-87a4-4f84-9e5b-fcd103c58a92.jpeg">
Violent rioters who stoned and burnt police did get killed. On day4. There weer already multiple police killed on day3. Even Western media acknowledges all of what I am saying happened.
The amazing amount of misinformation being spread here says a lot more about how insane the Western brainwashing machine is.
Which western media?
Same ones whitewashing Israel their genocide. In this case TheGuardian.
Okay, can you provide a source for both claims?
You have received plenty of sources for all claims. You can go source it yourself.
So because the US media justifies the killing of Palestinians, China is justified in killing student protesters, is that what you want to say?
Also, you seem to be arguing that since some demonstrators are acting violent, shooting at, running over and oppressing student protesters are also justified? That sounds like the same logic Zionists use to justify killing Palestinians because some of them might be Hamas. You seem to agree with Zionists quite a lot.
Armed rioters burning cops alive are not “student protesters”.
The US media somehow manages to switch the two around for their propaganda purposes.
You apparently cannot tell the difference either.
And yet the student protesters are being run over despite your claim that only armed rioters are burning cops alive. The exact same reasoning Zionists use to justify killing Palestinians. Like I said, you think exactly like a Zionist, which is funny.
in china they censor it on internet searches. thats why alot of thier netizens use proxies and anti-detect browsers.
The US won’t “forget” unless China pays the Dipshit-in-chief some payoff money. He’ll then EO that it never happened.
Tankies talking about Tiananmen Square without whataboutism:
Challenge Level = IMPOSSIBLE
Kent State says what?
No no no. This anniversary is about how communism is bad.
Oh is this the terrible bad country we shipped our entire industrial base to?
Free West Taiwan! Someday, the White Sun will rise above Peking.
Give me democracy or give me death
Everyone should read this
archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://…/AIIbbPs
Reading this whole thing never gets easier
Narrator: “It did.”