originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com
on 25 Dec 2023 15:04
nextcollapse
why would he say the quiet part out loud? how would this not make him seem like a piece of shit?
i tried to read in the article where he might say something about why but it really is just 'profits at all costs'.. wants to avoid the use of words like 'ethical'.. gotcha. i understand what kind of person you are now.
ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 15:06
nextcollapse
I think the article paints a pretty good portrait of a complicated but socially responsible business owner, even though I do think pulling out of Russia was the right thing to do even if it wasn’t what he would’ve chosen.
cyborganism@lemmy.ca
on 25 Dec 2023 15:20
nextcollapse
That’s the name of the game with carotidien. Profits at all costs.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 16:46
nextcollapse
I think this is misrepresenting what he said. His stance is basically that he felt like they were punishing honest workers and business partners, people who never lied or cheated or hurt anyone, for something that they had no part in due to public pressure. He’s not wrong either unless people have some kind of explanation for how a cosmetics manufacturer is supposed to stop Putin from murdering innocent Ukrainians fighting against his pointless war and innocent Russians who don’t want to fight for him.
originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com
on 25 Dec 2023 17:02
nextcollapse
good points, thank you.
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 17:30
nextcollapse
Because it might apply pressure to those rich enough to influence Putin. Because it slows their economy. Because it sends a message.
It’s one raindrop in the flood. But without raindrops, there is no flood.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 18:59
collapse
So, considering it hasn’t made a difference and Russia is still attacking Ukraine and Putin is still in power, how do you reconcile what you just said with the reality of the situation?
The only thing that’s changed is that Lush’s partner in Russia and all their employees have no income now.
gmtom@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 19:02
nextcollapse
So because it didnt immediately and totally fix the problem theres no point to it? Is that the “argument” you’re making?
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 19:23
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Lush did this in March of last year. I’m just asking what you’re expecting from this considering that they did do what you suggested. When is the effect you’re saying is supposed to happen going to happen?
You don’t have to be an asshole. It’s a legitimate question based on your assertion that all that needs to happen is pressure needs to be put on people.
And all im doing is asking if you think that because it’s not fixed the problem straight away it’s not worth doing?
Plenty of people have already explained how targeting Russias economy puts pressure on Putin.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 00:50
collapse
Yes, but no one has explained how the economy is harmed by harming individual Russians. If it’s not making a difference so far, how long do Russians who have nothing to do with the war suffer before we decide it’s a failed strategy? How long do Ukrainians suffer while we keep doing things that are not having an effect?
Kepabar@startrek.website
on 25 Dec 2023 21:23
collapse
Just because things don’t turn out how you hoped doesn’t mean you didn’t make the right decision at the time with the information that was available.
Too often we judge past actions only through the lens of hindsight. It’s useful for learning what went wrong but it’s not useful for judging if something was the right decision or not.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 21:55
collapse
I agree but that’s what I’m failing to understand. How does hurting the working class a tiny bit and making their lives harder do anything to stop Putin? Clearly the founder of Lush doesn’t and didn’t feel like it was the right decision at the time. It also not having the intended effect seems like a confirmation that it wasn’t the right decision rather than an indictment.
Bowing to public pressure doesn’t make the public right. If anything, it’s virtue signaling to keep your customer base instead of it being the right thing to do.
Kepabar@startrek.website
on 25 Dec 2023 23:41
collapse
It was all part of an effort to economically hurt Russia in response to the war.
Best case scenario was Russia deciding the hit to their economy was not worth the war and back pedaling. No one realistically thought this was going to happen though.
The next best case scenario was for the changes in quality of life for the average Russian would create enough internal pressure that the war would be called off.
This hasn’t happened yet but internal support for the war has been dropping over the last year and some of that is attributed to the dismal state of the Russian economy, which is a direct result of things like Lush pulling out.
And even if neither of these come up fruition, the more Russias economy is damaged the harder it is to fund their war effort. This gives Ukraine a bit more breathing room in their war effort.
While the effect of a single company like Lush is unnoticed, it’s the collective effect of everything from these pullouts, to trade sanctions and other soft power diplomatic plays which total up to a noticable effect.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 01:17
collapse
With respect, do you really trust poll numbers in a country where speaking out against the war will get you jailed or killed?
Kepabar@startrek.website
on 26 Dec 2023 01:57
nextcollapse
If anything, that supports the idea that the poll numbers should be even harder against the war than they are reported.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 02:33
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Great. Putin doesn’t care what the polling says.
TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world
on 27 Dec 2023 06:25
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That makes the drop in people saying they’re pro-war more significant, not less.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 27 Dec 2023 06:33
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I don’t care about what significance the results have if I don’t trust them…
SMillerNL@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 18:34
nextcollapse
If stopping Putin from being in government is the only fix, the only possible action anyone could take would be ending Putin. Anything else would be useless.
It isn’t though, non-offensive actions have effects too.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 18:58
collapse
That assumes that Russia has fair elections where voting would make a difference…
What non-offensive action could Lush’s production partner take that would make any difference?
They could just pff putin, no one would be offended.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 19:29
collapse
That would have both a more immediate and impactful effect than…checks notes… stopping luxury soap production…
Marsupial@quokk.au
on 25 Dec 2023 20:33
nextcollapse
A cosmetics manufacturer alone? No.
All western companies leaving however can make an economic hit that will benefit Ukraine.
As for the Russians? They can revolt or do something, otherwise they suffer. Who cares about them.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 21:02
nextcollapse
So all the western companies that did leave at the start of the war… what effect has that had? The war still continues, Russia took over copyrights and trademarks to continue global brands going internally, and Putin is still President.
When is this economic hit supposed to happen and when will its effects cause this change everyone is claiming? It’s nearly 2024 and these companies left in March of 2022.
Russias economy is the effect it had, or do you think Russia today is in as good a state as before the sanctions?
You seem to expect an overnight collapse of society? The world doesn’t work that easily.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 21:13
collapse
Russia’s GDP increased by 3.1% this year compared to last. The sanctions you mention did far more than western companies pulling their business from the country.
I’m not expecting an overnight collapse. I’m expecting quantifiable effects, such as those from the sanctions from other countries and the EU, that are actually measurable after 2 years.
You’re a little flog sitting in your western first world nation home that mum and dad likely own and you’re judging people on the other side of the world living under a dictatorship.
Judging by your name, you’re an Aussie and I’ve got to say, disappointed in your complete writing off of the entire Russian population. How the fuck is some young girl working at Lush supporting Putin or deserving of suffering if they don’t revolt?
hitmyspot@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 01:45
collapse
Her taxes directly support the war. It’s not as easy as people are good and bad. Good people can be in bad situations. Sanctions are supposed to hurt all people. That’s how they work. It’s seen as a lesser evil, rather than a good. They are damaging for both sides.
echodot@feddit.uk
on 25 Dec 2023 23:11
nextcollapse
Yeah but that’s what sanctions are. It’s not really possible to have convenient sanctions. How would that work.
Woht24@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 00:43
nextcollapse
And at the end of the day if that interpretation is true, your essentially saying ‘bad fucking luck’ to all the Russians who lost their jobs while living in a country perpetrating a war that if they speak out against, they’ll be jailed at best.
You’re right, there’s no convenient sanctions but if that’s really what old mate Lush is saying, he’s got a point.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 01:11
nextcollapse
Uhhuh and I was showing my dislike of that. It’s good you can follow the conversation.
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 20:00
collapse
Wow. You’re fun.
thedirtyknapkin@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 02:07
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i mean, this is one way to win a war. the other is with bombs and death. Russia chose to enter this war, it shouldn’t be surprised when it affects its citizens.
no one should get to keep their war over seas and out of their own borders.
imagine a future where we could stop wars by just taking people’s jobs…
sukhmel@programming.dev
on 27 Dec 2023 15:23
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Well, killing people using economy seems more humane than killing people using bombs, so I have to agree
dpkonofa@lemmy.world
on 26 Dec 2023 20:12
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Sanctions are typically the acts of a government state not the actions of a business. Businesses have to comply with them but only if they’re bound by them. That wasn’t the case here. Lush did this based on public outcry, not sanctions.
Yep my feelings exactly, there is nothing wrong with the article. The problem is WITH MBFC
MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 16:27
nextcollapse
That’s good to know. Since Lush doesn’t seem to sell their stuff in other retail locations, it will be much easier to never buy Lush products again.
BirdyBoogleBop@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 26 Dec 2023 22:39
collapse
Atleast he isn’t lying. Every other company is waiting for the right time to go back why shouldn’t he? I am under no illusion that all businesses that left Russia did it because of the goodness of their hearts.
Are you going to boycott all the other business that left too?
MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world
on 27 Dec 2023 00:31
collapse
Watch me.
I_Has_A_Hat@startrek.website
on 27 Dec 2023 15:52
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Child
MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world
on 27 Dec 2023 17:46
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Oh No, an internet stranger doesn’t like who I will and won’t spend my money on!
I_Has_A_Hat@startrek.website
on 27 Dec 2023 20:18
collapse
It’s more a pretty solid prediction that you’re not going to actually boycott them because you are ignorant to the interconnectivity of modern mega corporations. Unless you are fully prepared to live off the grid, the idea of a boycott isn’t just unfeasible, it fully reveals your own immaturity for thinking that it could be.
MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world
on 27 Dec 2023 23:51
collapse
Neat. I will continue to not buy Lush, so absolutely nothing has changed there. Someone else came at me with a whataboutism style response, and I dismissed them with a “watch me”.
Why would you give two shits about me not buying Lush? Do you own stock in the company? Do you have vested interest in any other company I’d like to boycott?
Also, I’m completely at peace with you finding me immature, or any other adjective, as I do not ascribe any weight to your opinion.
I_Has_A_Hat@startrek.website
on 28 Dec 2023 23:25
collapse
Sure that’s 1. And what about all the other companies out there? Other companies doing the same thing as Lush is what the subject was in the comment you childishly replied to. Of course, you seem like a person who likes living in the bottom quartile of things, so I wouldn’t expect reading comprehension to be a big strength of yours.
MushuChupacabra@lemmy.world
on 29 Dec 2023 01:00
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You’re still chasing this? LMFAO
lickmygiggle@lemmy.world
on 25 Dec 2023 17:38
nextcollapse
That picture looks like a cross between Leo Laporte and Robert DeNiro
DoucheBagMcSwag@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 25 Dec 2023 20:49
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If you actually read the article it doesn’t seem to be about the money:
Mr Constantine said: “It was horrible. I hated it because we have a very diverse workforce and lots of people who probably wouldn’t be welcome in Russia.
“We had a partner of 20 years in Russia who never cheated, never lied, and we had to tell him we weren’t going to supply him anymore.
(The Telegraph doesn’t close some of their “quotes” for some reason)
sukhmel@programming.dev
on 27 Dec 2023 15:17
collapse
As far as I remember, that’s the correct use of continued quotation in English
shneancy@lemmy.world
on 28 Dec 2023 09:58
nextcollapse
huh, i didn’t know that was a thing
Codilingus@sh.itjust.works
on 28 Dec 2023 14:52
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Indeed. I’m reading the OG Frankenstein book and found this out when quotes were only at the start of a paragraph and never closed, for pages at a time.
shneancy@lemmy.world
on 27 Dec 2023 12:19
collapse
lmao for a minute i thought the public was deeply invested in the remote control vibrator Lush by Lovense
ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world
on 27 Dec 2023 12:26
collapse
We are! This isn’t it though. Don’t put this up there. It’ll ruin the pH.
threaded - newest
why would he say the quiet part out loud? how would this not make him seem like a piece of shit?
i tried to read in the article where he might say something about why but it really is just 'profits at all costs'.. wants to avoid the use of words like 'ethical'.. gotcha. i understand what kind of person you are now.
I think the article paints a pretty good portrait of a complicated but socially responsible business owner, even though I do think pulling out of Russia was the right thing to do even if it wasn’t what he would’ve chosen.
That’s the name of the game with carotidien. Profits at all costs.
I think this is misrepresenting what he said. His stance is basically that he felt like they were punishing honest workers and business partners, people who never lied or cheated or hurt anyone, for something that they had no part in due to public pressure. He’s not wrong either unless people have some kind of explanation for how a cosmetics manufacturer is supposed to stop Putin from murdering innocent Ukrainians fighting against his pointless war and innocent Russians who don’t want to fight for him.
good points, thank you.
Because it might apply pressure to those rich enough to influence Putin. Because it slows their economy. Because it sends a message.
It’s one raindrop in the flood. But without raindrops, there is no flood.
So, considering it hasn’t made a difference and Russia is still attacking Ukraine and Putin is still in power, how do you reconcile what you just said with the reality of the situation?
The only thing that’s changed is that Lush’s partner in Russia and all their employees have no income now.
So because it didnt immediately and totally fix the problem theres no point to it? Is that the “argument” you’re making?
Lush did this in March of last year. I’m just asking what you’re expecting from this considering that they did do what you suggested. When is the effect you’re saying is supposed to happen going to happen?
You don’t have to be an asshole. It’s a legitimate question based on your assertion that all that needs to happen is pressure needs to be put on people.
I think you’re the one being an asshole here.
How am I being an asshole? By pointing out that what you claim should happen hasn’t happened in the slightest?
You made a claim. I’m just asking you to justify it.
And all im doing is asking if you think that because it’s not fixed the problem straight away it’s not worth doing?
Plenty of people have already explained how targeting Russias economy puts pressure on Putin.
Yes, but no one has explained how the economy is harmed by harming individual Russians. If it’s not making a difference so far, how long do Russians who have nothing to do with the war suffer before we decide it’s a failed strategy? How long do Ukrainians suffer while we keep doing things that are not having an effect?
Just because things don’t turn out how you hoped doesn’t mean you didn’t make the right decision at the time with the information that was available.
Too often we judge past actions only through the lens of hindsight. It’s useful for learning what went wrong but it’s not useful for judging if something was the right decision or not.
I agree but that’s what I’m failing to understand. How does hurting the working class a tiny bit and making their lives harder do anything to stop Putin? Clearly the founder of Lush doesn’t and didn’t feel like it was the right decision at the time. It also not having the intended effect seems like a confirmation that it wasn’t the right decision rather than an indictment.
Bowing to public pressure doesn’t make the public right. If anything, it’s virtue signaling to keep your customer base instead of it being the right thing to do.
It was all part of an effort to economically hurt Russia in response to the war.
Best case scenario was Russia deciding the hit to their economy was not worth the war and back pedaling. No one realistically thought this was going to happen though.
The next best case scenario was for the changes in quality of life for the average Russian would create enough internal pressure that the war would be called off.
This hasn’t happened yet but internal support for the war has been dropping over the last year and some of that is attributed to the dismal state of the Russian economy, which is a direct result of things like Lush pulling out.
euronews.com/…/russians-support-of-ukraine-war-co…
And even if neither of these come up fruition, the more Russias economy is damaged the harder it is to fund their war effort. This gives Ukraine a bit more breathing room in their war effort.
While the effect of a single company like Lush is unnoticed, it’s the collective effect of everything from these pullouts, to trade sanctions and other soft power diplomatic plays which total up to a noticable effect.
With respect, do you really trust poll numbers in a country where speaking out against the war will get you jailed or killed?
If anything, that supports the idea that the poll numbers should be even harder against the war than they are reported.
Great. Putin doesn’t care what the polling says.
That makes the drop in people saying they’re pro-war more significant, not less.
I don’t care about what significance the results have if I don’t trust them…
If stopping Putin from being in government is the only fix, the only possible action anyone could take would be ending Putin. Anything else would be useless.
It isn’t though, non-offensive actions have effects too.
That assumes that Russia has fair elections where voting would make a difference…
What non-offensive action could Lush’s production partner take that would make any difference?
They could just pff putin, no one would be offended.
That would have both a more immediate and impactful effect than…checks notes… stopping luxury soap production…
A cosmetics manufacturer alone? No.
All western companies leaving however can make an economic hit that will benefit Ukraine.
As for the Russians? They can revolt or do something, otherwise they suffer. Who cares about them.
So all the western companies that did leave at the start of the war… what effect has that had? The war still continues, Russia took over copyrights and trademarks to continue global brands going internally, and Putin is still President.
When is this economic hit supposed to happen and when will its effects cause this change everyone is claiming? It’s nearly 2024 and these companies left in March of 2022.
Russias economy is the effect it had, or do you think Russia today is in as good a state as before the sanctions?
You seem to expect an overnight collapse of society? The world doesn’t work that easily.
Russia’s GDP increased by 3.1% this year compared to last. The sanctions you mention did far more than western companies pulling their business from the country.
I’m not expecting an overnight collapse. I’m expecting quantifiable effects, such as those from the sanctions from other countries and the EU, that are actually measurable after 2 years.
I guess that makes me an asshole, though.
GDP is not an indicator of a healthy economy.
Likewise every action that hurts Russia is beneficial even if you personally can’t see the effects of it.
I just don’t see how it hurts Russia as a nation. I only see it hurting Russians who have nothing to do with the state’s actions.
Russians have everything to do with their states actions.
In fact they have more to do with it than anyone else on the planet as it is their responsibility
Again, this assumes Russia’s elections are run freely and fairly which we know is not the case.
Why would it assume that?
Revolt or die, idc.
You’re a little flog sitting in your western first world nation home that mum and dad likely own and you’re judging people on the other side of the world living under a dictatorship.
Absolutely no fucking idea.
They suffer if they revolt too.
Judging by your name, you’re an Aussie and I’ve got to say, disappointed in your complete writing off of the entire Russian population. How the fuck is some young girl working at Lush supporting Putin or deserving of suffering if they don’t revolt?
Her taxes directly support the war. It’s not as easy as people are good and bad. Good people can be in bad situations. Sanctions are supposed to hurt all people. That’s how they work. It’s seen as a lesser evil, rather than a good. They are damaging for both sides.
Yeah but that’s what sanctions are. It’s not really possible to have convenient sanctions. How would that work.
And at the end of the day if that interpretation is true, your essentially saying ‘bad fucking luck’ to all the Russians who lost their jobs while living in a country perpetrating a war that if they speak out against, they’ll be jailed at best.
You’re right, there’s no convenient sanctions but if that’s really what old mate Lush is saying, he’s got a point.
Yes… I think that’s exactly what he’s saying.
Uhhuh and I was showing my dislike of that. It’s good you can follow the conversation.
Wow. You’re fun.
i mean, this is one way to win a war. the other is with bombs and death. Russia chose to enter this war, it shouldn’t be surprised when it affects its citizens.
no one should get to keep their war over seas and out of their own borders.
imagine a future where we could stop wars by just taking people’s jobs…
Well, killing people using economy seems more humane than killing people using bombs, so I have to agree
Sanctions are typically the acts of a government state not the actions of a business. Businesses have to comply with them but only if they’re bound by them. That wasn’t the case here. Lush did this based on public outcry, not sanctions.
Why are you commenting this to me? I’m the one that pointed out that the parent’s interpretation of the story was wrong in the first place.
I’ll take an honest cunt over a deceitful cunt any day of the week.
And some people still say that the customers are helpless and calling for boycott doesn’t work…
If people would demand other industries to be more in line with their moral values (like about climate change) that could also change a lot
I don’t know how an interview with the man is a bad source but okay MBFC I guess lmao
Yep my feelings exactly, there is nothing wrong with the article. The problem is WITH MBFC
That’s good to know. Since Lush doesn’t seem to sell their stuff in other retail locations, it will be much easier to never buy Lush products again.
Atleast he isn’t lying. Every other company is waiting for the right time to go back why shouldn’t he? I am under no illusion that all businesses that left Russia did it because of the goodness of their hearts.
Are you going to boycott all the other business that left too?
Watch me.
Child
Oh No, an internet stranger doesn’t like who I will and won’t spend my money on!
It’s more a pretty solid prediction that you’re not going to actually boycott them because you are ignorant to the interconnectivity of modern mega corporations. Unless you are fully prepared to live off the grid, the idea of a boycott isn’t just unfeasible, it fully reveals your own immaturity for thinking that it could be.
Neat. I will continue to not buy Lush, so absolutely nothing has changed there. Someone else came at me with a whataboutism style response, and I dismissed them with a “watch me”.
Why would you give two shits about me not buying Lush? Do you own stock in the company? Do you have vested interest in any other company I’d like to boycott?
Also, I’m completely at peace with you finding me immature, or any other adjective, as I do not ascribe any weight to your opinion.
Sure that’s 1. And what about all the other companies out there? Other companies doing the same thing as Lush is what the subject was in the comment you childishly replied to. Of course, you seem like a person who likes living in the bottom quartile of things, so I wouldn’t expect reading comprehension to be a big strength of yours.
You’re still chasing this? LMFAO
That picture looks like a cross between Leo Laporte and Robert DeNiro
“Hey, Call for Help is on!”
Dude’s a greedy pig, what do you expect?
If you actually read the article it doesn’t seem to be about the money:
(The Telegraph doesn’t close some of their “quotes” for some reason)
As far as I remember, that’s the correct use of continued quotation in English
huh, i didn’t know that was a thing
Indeed. I’m reading the OG Frankenstein book and found this out when quotes were only at the start of a paragraph and never closed, for pages at a time.
lmao for a minute i thought the public was deeply invested in the remote control vibrator Lush by Lovense
We are! This isn’t it though. Don’t put this up there. It’ll ruin the pH.