The Auto Industry Was Warned: Battery Recycling Was Poisoning People
(www.nytimes.com)
from silence7@slrpnk.net to world@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 15:37
https://slrpnk.net/post/30661454
from silence7@slrpnk.net to world@lemmy.world on 25 Nov 15:37
https://slrpnk.net/post/30661454
Despite decades of evidence on the toxic effects of lead battery recycling, companies opted not to act and blocked efforts to clean up the industry.
#world
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Imagine the damage recycling EV batteries will cause.
Not to be anti-EV, but more to be pro-transits/bike.
For what it’s worth, it’s not anti anything to point out flaws. If anything, it’s being pro because it opens the door for a conversation; which, if both sides come at it in good faith, can lead to change.
ahahahah, good one
I like it, but it’s contingent on Americans actually wanting to solve the issue instead of one upping each other.
Americans are unlikely to solve anything until their society goes through some dramatic changes.
That’ll take generations, we’re so absolutely fucked in this shit hole
Maybe less. But yeah.
Gotta start somewhere, and gotta keep at it. It’s difficult at times, and there certainly are people who just want to see the world burn. But fuck them. They aren’t worth our time and energy.
It stands to reason that if set on fire, their entire world will be, in fact, burning.
Yes, but there are a few of us out there who want to see good things happen for all people.
Which is kinda what your post is doing
I think that my ratio makes your point, lol. I neglected to note that we need to do better, instead of just leaving it open ended.
My understanding of the current process is that it’s quite wasteful/under development. With the state of things as they are it seems unlikely that the automakers are going to improve things over the recycling that they encouraged with lead acid. But one can hope, and lobby for change.
Yeah, I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted. Everything you said is true, and respectful.
I think open-ended can be okay, so long as there are milestones we can achieve (i.e. try different things out to see what works and what doesn’t). Something as big as the environment, health/safety, and not completely alienating industries (as much as I hate to say it, we do need them and their resources to an extent), is not something that is going to be easily solved without compromise.
I expect that my last two points will not win me any popularity contests, but they cannot be ignored.
Lithium and lead are drastically different elements.
This is the same shit people use to lambast vaping based of the effects of inhaling burnt plant matter.
No one is doing that. Dihydroacetone released from heated vape juice is just as carcinogenic as tobacco compounds. Huffing any chemical in high concentration is stupid.
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11347775/
“Just as carcinogenic” is not demonstrated by that study.
Also “inhaling any chemicals is stupid” shows their level of knowledge considering the air we breath is a chemical.
please fuck off you know what I mean. sucking on mystery chinese chemicals is stupid.
Oh they’re “mystery chemicals” now? I thought you posted a study referencing a specific chemical.
This exactly highlights my previous point about conflating cigarettes with vaping. Now youre arguing “we dont even know what’s in them so they’re definitely harmful because look at how harmful this completely separate product is!” We’re supposed to just take your argument on faith despite your inability to even use the proper terminology all because this other inhaled product with completely separate chemicals and chemical reactions is bad for you.
"we confirmed the mutagenesis observed using the supF reporter plasmid. DHA increased the mutation frequency, consistent with methylmethane sulfonate, a mutagen and clastogen. These data demonstrate DHA is a clastogen, inducing cell-specific genotoxicity and chromosomal instability. "
I know, big words.
Yes, carcinogenic. Not “just as” carcinogenic.
I am a biochemist. These are not big words to me. I actually read the findings section, not only the abstract.
EV batteries are mostly aluminum, some lithium , carbon as graphite, small amount of cobalt and nickel. None of these are as toxic as lead, but proper lead recycling is not toxic.
But this is how some people are recycling lead batteries.
Currently my understanding of lion recycling is they grind it, dump it into a slurry, and some of the metals are recovered and the rest is a toxic soup. Mostly because the recycling is very much under development.
I think that the lesson we can draw from this is that the current system of auto recycling needs more guidelines as we move forward with EVs.
Outdated. The materials are recovered at high yield and can be infinitely recycled. It kills the idea that we can’t make enough batteries, no more credible than we can’t make enough beer cans.
That’s great news, as an EV owner. I don’t need to worry as much about the future state of the pack.
EV batteries are often still good to use as they are for other purposes. Like home power storage. Their storage amount gets low enough that they aren’t giving sufficient range anymore, but they still have plenty of life left in different applications.
There’s a million reasons to prefer bikes and public transit over cars in general. The reasons specific to EVs are usually bullshit.
How pluralizing an uncountable/mass noun implies pros are transiting.
The hyphen removes that option of intended meaning.
Look man, you need to do better. You want busses to run on diesel, or really any hydrocarbon? No that’s idiocy at this point. So we still need to recycle stuff. We already know how, but the misleading article makes it seem like we don’t, cu they tried to half ass it.
Misleading headline making it sounds like all battery recycling poisons people. Half assed battery recycling is half assed.
Also sodium ion or some other lead-free formulation will likely replace lead acid 12v batteries over the next few years.
The advantage lead acid has for ICE is that it can dump a lot of current all at once. The C output rate on sodium ion isn’t that high, IIRC.
There have been lithium batteries used for the purpose. The original Miata used one because standard lead acid cells caused corrosion issues in the chassis. But lithium has its own supply chain issues.
Ultimately, this goes away because ICE cars go away.
Well, there is still the temperature constraints of Lipo and LiFePo batteries (the latter being much better at cold and hot charging).
But the point is that lithium batteries operate under a pretty big compromise of needing heating and cooling when temps are too cold and too hot, respectively. That is where lead acid has a pretty significant advantage.
Edit: I had a 1991 miata, and I don’t recall having a lithium battery. It was rear-mounted, though.
I lol’d because growing up in cold climate. You had to put a block heater to keep your engines warm enough to start. That ran off electricity. So… You know, batteries keeping themselves warm isn’t really different.
Right this very minute I’ve got two battery tenders keeping the lead acid batteries trickle charged on some motorcycles in my garage.
None of this shit is different in any meaningful way.
I’m from Winnipeg, I know.
It is functionally very different. We heat our blocks, but rare is the person with a battery blanket.
Teslas need warming and cooling for their batteries, and even at that, they lose huge range in super cold winters. But that isn’t the real problem, which is that recharge cycles are fewer and fewer every time you charge a cold li-ion.
The newer EVs are switching to heat pumps for managing battery temperature. It’s more efficient than resistive heat, and can use the same system for cooling. This helps maintain range both by keeping batteries the right temperature and by doing it more efficiently.
And who in Winnipeg hasn’t heard of what happens if you let your gas tank get too empty in extreme cold?
Look man, I own one. I ski. None of the stuff you’re saying is actually happening. These things are edge cases at best.
The reality is the differences aren’t important in any meaningful way. I’ve got to do maintenance on my engines to keep them running. I’ve got to keep the EV plugged in, to keep it running. Literally the same.
Me wondering how ICE is tracking people through their car batteries when I first read this 🤔
I thought they meant that the rapid high current output of lead batteries was better for torture.
12 volts doesn’t really hurt much is my understanding. I think movies exaggerate it. It tracks because people literally lick 9 volt batteries to test them. The 120 volts AC in the wall would be more useful for that.
It’s the additional amperage that makes the 12v worse
Batteries don’t have amps, they have volts. The resistance of the things they’re touching determines the amps.
A shocking revelation!
That’s where capacitor-based jump-starters come in.
Related Electroboom video
Add a capacitor, now it is.
Headline clearly leads “Auto industry warned” implying this is an industrial issue specific to them. And it is. This is not misleading.
The issue is that they are offshoring the lead recycling to very poor nations that have no environmental protection laws. Why? Cos cheaper.
Same issue with almost every industrial problem - the dangers are off-shored. Out of sight, out of mind. The US auto industry was warned about this exact prpblem and pleaded with to set up monitoring and a clean battery sourcing program - and of course they did nothing, because the only way corporations listen is with law and effective enforcement of those laws.
Doing things improperly with dangerous materials is unsafe. News at 11:00.