So donât delay, fuck now, supplies are fucking out
Fuck now, if youâre still alive, six to eight fucks to arrive
And if you fuck more, there may be a tomorrow
But if the offerâs fucked
You might as well be fuckinâ on the sun
Dance like these is as intimidating as getting booed, they should quit their leadership position if they feel physically threatened by it. Itâs a dance, hon, not waving gun or sword around.
A ritual dance is physical intimidation? I suppose youâd say having aggressive body language (looking angry) is physical intimidation too.
We should put all government officials on valium so they donât accidentally get too emotionally invested in what theyâre discussing, lest they accidentally physically intimidate someone with an angry face.
Obviously ministers with resting-bitch-face will have to be permanently barred from attending parliament, for the safety of their colleagues. We wouldnât want such blatant physical intimidation on the day to day after all.
The point being, if you think a native ritual dance is the same as being physically intimidated, rather than seeing it as their cultureâs way of expressing their feelings on some important matters, then youâre entirely missing the point and showing a lack of understanding of your own nationâs culture at a basic level, and probably shouldnât be representing those same citizens at the government level.
I imagine politicians that clueless would just say âOh my, the natives have gone feral! Look at that display of raw physical intimidation! Jeeves, fetch my musket and donât fire till you see the whites of their eyes!â
If you feel physically intimidated by what is essentially some well known and well respected people in a debating hall being angry about the current topic of discussion and telling you theyâre angry in a recognised and common cultural manner, then I canât help you.
I suppose youâd say having aggressive body language (looking angry) is physical intimidation too.
Yes (but just looking angry is not body language. Itâs a facial expression. Screaming at someone with your arms flailing is aggressive body language)
Do you even know the history of the Haka? Itâs a warriorâs dance to intimidate their foes. Modern haka can have many meanings, but thatâs itâs root.
atzanteol@sh.itjust.works
on 15 May 12:06
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Hey hey now, whatâs with this intimidating post? Sounds like I may need my gun.
explodicle@sh.itjust.works
on 15 May 13:28
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Did you see the video? The arm stuff looks like jazz hands.
captainlezbian@lemmy.world
on 15 May 19:03
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Its root is in physical intimidation before battle yes, but on the floor of parliament itâs clearly intended as an act of cultural display of resistance, not one of âdo as we say or we will hurt youâ.
The modern suit comes from military uniforms. Hell, they have a guy with a mace when parliament is in session. This military imagery has come to the authority of the democratic process and appears at least throughout the anglosphere, but itâs using military imagery to do so.
Just as the colonizer uses military imagery to represent the authority and tradition of institutions, the colonized may use their own military imagery to represent opposition to colonial acts.
Yes thereâs lots of ceremonial aspects to parliament and if they wanted to include more maori tradition into it, Iâd be all in favour.
This is akin to randomly bellowing out the national anthem in the middle of a voting session but with more bite. Iâd expect somebody doing that to be sanctioned too.
This is akin to randomly bellowing out the national anthem in the middle of a voting session but with more bite. Iâd expect somebody doing that to be sanctioned too.
With the harshest punishment ever given within their government?
You seem very uninformed about the history of the Haka.
There are many different ones, but the most common one, Ka Mate, is usually performed by sports teams before a game, and is meant to be intimidating.
They were historically performed by a tribeâs mightiest warriors when other chiefs came to visit, as one example. Theyâre often a war dance, a show of power.
Of course intimidation is the point â psychological/political intimidation, not physical. Context matters. Donât try to pretend that the other MPs were scared they were gonna charge at them with taiahas or something, because thatâs bullshit and you know it.
I donât know about other commenters, but Iâm absolutely not uninformed, and this was in no way out of line given the context.
Hakas have evolved from traditional war dances and are often performed at sports events, thatâs true, but the Ka Mate is also performed in many other contexts (including at funerals and after separation of families) and should not be boiled down to simple intimidation â itâs more a show of resolve. Do you think groups of people meeting after a long absence are trying to threaten one another or that mourners are trying to intimidate the deceased? The meaning has nuance and is not a simple threat; itâs about the will to overcome adversity, and is basically the national anthem of the MÄoriâs iwi, which was fought for in this very Parliament, and which resulted in the Haka (Ka Mate) Attribution Act after colonisation. I honestly cannot think of a more fitting time and place to perform it than in this context.
If youâve only seen it in a sports context, I can see how you might think itâs simply a modernised war dance meant to intimidate an opposing group, but thatâs a very reductionist view of it.
From newzealand.com:
Ka Mate is the haka often performed by the All Blacks. It begins with âKa mate, ka mate, ka ora, ka oraâ, which translates to âI die, I die, I live, I live.â
One can only imagine how Ngati Toa Chief Te Rauparaha felt when he first chanted these words 200 years ago. He had just evaded capture by a rival iwi (tribe) and was given shelter by another iwi, who hid him underground in a kƫmara (sweet potato) pit. Ka mate tells this story, describing how Te Rauparaha shook off adversity to emerge from the darkness of the kƫmara pit into the light.
Te Rauparaha went on to evade capture a few more times and to become a great MÄori chief and warrior, helping to expand NgÄti Toaâs territory across the lower North Island.
You can read the origin of the Ka Mate from New Zealand Geographic â this is not a story of war and intimidation, but of perseverence and the will to overcome.
Ka Mate shouldnât be viewed as an intimidation tactic thatâs morphed from war to sports, but as a deeply cultural story that absolutely has a place in New Zealand Parliament, and some overstuffed colonists being offended is disdainful at best.
e: oh, I also meant to mention that, even long ago, haka werenât meant to be simply war dances to intimidate and threaten in preparation for battle but, ideally, to head off the need for battle in the first place. A well-performed haka was in stead of battle, not just in preparation for one. The point was to not have to fight, but to impress and come to agreement. Thatâs nearly the opposite of what many people think these dances were for.
The haka happened last November. They havenât been punished until now. Youâd think if it was that severe they wouldnât wait 5 months to punish them for it.
Ah, at more or less frequent time spans I end up searching the internet for all these amazing ritual performances (forgive my ignorance, I am from North Europe so donât really know what it is exactly or what it should be called) of the MÄori.
I get so captured and enchanted by them, itâs so powerful but often also beautiful and somehow extremely sorrowful or whatever emotion the display is intended to signal (or at least ends up signaling to me as a complete ignorant foreigner), I always end up wondering that had Christianity not crusaded our lands and bloodily murdered and genocided our cultures, might we have something equally powerful and captivating to preserve? Itâs not a far fetch because we do have a lot of remnants and first party findings on the old Norwegian and Danish and Swedish cultures of around the Northern European Iron Age for example, that had similar sort of rituals or even just musical tastes and conventions. Our peoples neighbored those, though were distinct and entirely different on most fronts, though a lot of people today fancy conflating us with the âVikingsâ. We were their looting ground for the most part and any influence from their culture on ours wouldâve been likely equally bloodily brought. But I digress.
Had the southerners not crusaded and killed most of us off, snuffed out the light of our culture, forced everyone brutally to follow whatever flavor of Christ each crusade was bringing, maybe I shouldnât feel so amazed by the amazing cultures far away. But maybe we didnât have anything as powerful in the first place, who knows at this pointâŠ
But these shows of force and unity are always so captivating, I end up bingeing videos of them for hours on end, even if I donât really know what they are about and what each of them mean.
I love this. Itâs so close to my heart somehow, feels so close to home, yet itâs a faraway thing.
might we have something equally powerful and captivating to preserve?
âŠno. As in: Thatâs not the kind of cultural practice Christianisation wiped out or we wouldnât be burning stuff come spring, dance around maypoles, and whatnot. The Faroese are still into singing sagas as an actual community practice. Missionaries back then werenât trying to regiment people into factory workers, make them sit still on chairs and such.
Itâs kind of a grass is greener on the other side kind of situation. Thereâs a good reason stuff like Heilung is captivating, but thatâs because theyâre modern-day shamans speaking to instincts buried by modernity, not because theyâd be historical in their music or practices. Norse folk music indeed sounded pretty much like Norse folk music does today.
I get your sentiment, but Iâm talking about Finnic heritage and culture, we have some stuff preserved, though a lot of it warped by Christian stuff bleeding into them, but no real knowledge of what the music around here was like. From the Scandinavians, we have even primary sources and good findings, but I am fairly certain what we had here was much different, just not preserved. A lot of the crusades were from the Scandinavians, former âVikingsâ, which means we do have some amount of warped cultural traditions similar to theirs, but that is most likely a result and the outcome of hundred years of crusades, annexation, occupation and conquest. So in a sense itâs true Christianity alone didnât result in our lost cultural traditions, it was the more powerful cousins we have from the West as well.
But I do not agree that itâs entirely just âgrass is greenerâ kind of situation and that the influence and violence from the faiths and the peoples from the South and the West (and the East!) played no critical part in silencing whatever we used to have around here. If we take your proposal for example, that would mean that we were very alike to the Scandinavians, since those are mostly the âpaganâ traditions that remain in some thinned out, distorted ways, here too. But everything, the entirely different language origins, the cultural merging more with the Siberian and Sami peoples on top of our own original foreigness among these Scandinavian neighbors, everything points to it being unlikely our customs were the same. Our religion was entirely different to those of our Western cousins. You would assume the customs, traditions, rites, the music and all, wouldâve been entirely different as well, since most of them leaned into those two things: the language (as in the preservation of:) and the all-encompassing nature of faiths of that time as sort of the merged âscienceâ, culture and religion.
But I was vague in my original comment, which probably lead to this tangent. While Iâm not an academic in the histories of our culture, I have been interested in it and consuming all kinds of content regarding it (the little we haveâŠ) all my life. I feel like I am in line with the current consensus. But maybe not. Take it as you will.
If we take your proposal for example, that would mean that we were very alike to the Scandinavians, since those are mostly the âpaganâ traditions that remain in some thinned out, distorted ways, here too.
I guess what I want to say overall is that you shouldnât confuse the impact of Christianisation with the impact of being neighbours for millennia. Of course you both have Saunas, why wouldnât they copy you, long before the crusades. Thereâs indubitably lots of influence in areas such as administration, but folk dances, music? Which tax collector has ever cared about that, that kind of thing travels from village to neighbouring village, the occasional travelling musician, not via state structures.
The Catholic Church definitely had influence on music as they had their stuff standardised but then not every village had a church much less a choir much less organ, nor would you want to dance to their chants. They didnât unify Europe musically, why would they care to. What they did do is popularise polyphony.
On the flipside: Tradition is not praying to the ashes, but passing on the fire. If thereâs some specifically Finnish spark that makes you produce the amount and quality of metal that you do then, by all means, do blaze on. Why go backwards, how would that be more authentic.
I might have gotten a little defensive there for no real reason. Itâs a thin line to walk, and unfortunately I find myself often approaching the forbidden (and rightly so) lands of some variation or cultural exceptionalism, and even worse, based on nothing actual or concrete, just vague âwhat-ifâs and imagination.
Sorry about all that
captainlezbian@lemmy.world
on 15 May 18:32
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I totally get where youâre coming from, and I agree Christianity did snuff out a lot of that, but not necessarily the way you may be thinking of it. Christianity was a face, tool, and motivation of empire, and empire seeks to standardize culture for the sake of stability. Christianity has deeply powerful cultural performances too. There are traditional catholic rituals that by their nature as a force of colonizing power and as part of globally dominant cultures (and as part of our own cultures) we see differently from this.
This haka was powerful and beautiful, and part of that is by its own merit, but part is that it is people and culture resisting colonial power.
Also, the modern era has been immensely destructive to culture and ritual except where it is intentionally preserved. While it would be easy to pin it on Christianity and the protestant reformation, the reality is that itâs also caused by the formation of nations (the unification of Italy for example created a shared culture between Venice and Rome for the first time since the fall of the western empire), the advent of mass travel and communication, the rise of industrialized lifestyles, and the shift from generation after generation living in the same spot to the normalization of living somewhat far from your family, all of which combined to more or less radically weaken local cultures.
You make sense, itâs easy to reduce these things into a couple of easy âvillainsâ to point my finger at, but in reality things are always much, much more complex.
For whatever reason, itâs a touchy topic for me and often takes a few steps taken back to see it straight so to say.
The point being itâs obnoxious that discussions of any female politician at some point have to bring up their attractiveness. Itâs completely irrelevant to the work they do. I canât think of male politicians getting the same treatment.
We got the project 2025 test run when a three party far right coalition got elected in 2023. Most regressive, cruel and mean sprited government in a generation.
USA, NZ, Australia, Canada, UK and beyond. They all coordinate, they use the same consultants, the same messages, their AstroTurf political advocacy groups all share info and coordinate policy to make our lives worse and the rich richer. Tailored slightly for local conditions but the same overall goal.
Yeah, gotta export that freedom to them Maori and ignore the rule of law by treaty with them yeah? Whatâs that got to do with colonialism? Canât even be related. Who would even think such a thing? I am truly shocked.
I_Fart_Glitter@lemmy.world
on 15 May 03:40
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This was five months ago. The MPs haka sparked national protest and a nine day march against the Treaty Principles Bill, which did not pass. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Principles_Bill
Pretty much. That and trying to distract people from the details of their budget, which will without doubt be all the usual crap youâd expect from conservatives.
The bill was never going to pass, the other two parties in the coalition had made it very clear they would support the bill to its first reading and no further, and only agreed to support it that far because they couldnât have formed a government otherwise.
There are agreed rules on language, some parliaments have dress code but besides penalties or fines a representative can be served with under no situation a representative can be barred from exercisizing their dutifully elected functions.
I have representatives in my national assembly with criminal charges that none the less exercise as they have been elected.
I donât know about the NZ parliament, but in the UK parliament upon which it is based it absolutely possible for members to be thrown out of the chamber. Itâs not even that rare. Famously Dennis Skinner was kicked out for calling them Prime Minister David Cameron âDodgy Daveâ and refusing to retract it.
Are you quoting some rule or just your own expectation?
Iâm in Portugal. Iâve seen direct insults exchanged between representatives, a clear violation of manners and language, and the representative was not removed from the chamber. Their word was removed, a sanction issued, but that was it. We have representatives with active criminal charges in place that were not removed.
Youâre right it does vary from country to country.
However, I donât personally think it does the process any good if thing can descend into playground insults or violence. Iâm in favour of people being expelled if they canât maintain a base level of behaviour.
milicent_bystandr@lemm.ee
on 16 May 23:08
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Long ago, in the excellent scholarly work entitled Potty Politics, I read that the distance between the lines on the floor of the UK House of Commons, that separate the two parties, is just too wide for crossing swords.
In New Zealand it is pretty common for members of parliament to get thrown out of the chamber for a whole bunch of reasons. In general you have to do whatever the speaker says, sort of like you would a judge in a court proceeding. Thereâs a whole lot ( perhaps dated ) rules around treating other members of the house with respect, letting them speak when their part of the process is up etc.
My wallet as no place in this conversation. It is just a battered piece a leather that is currently struggling to hold two bank cards, some coins and a few receipts. And my identification cards.
Fight with your vote. Support smaller parties. Be politically active. Demand change.
It was clear the collective western governance doesn't give a shit about indigenous people when they facilitated, funded, supplied arms, and downplayed the palestinian genocide. Their "human rights" only extends to marketing themselves as moral civilized people, while making themselves rich and powerful comes first.
Honourable cause, not good praxis interjecting it into random topics making people more fed up hearing about it than theyâre fed up hearing about vegans.
Parliaments have rules dictating behaviour for good reason. If they donât then discussion break down into chaos. So should they be punished? Absolutely.
The severity of that punishment depends on the type of haka and what was intended by it. In all the coverage Iâve seen no translation of what was said. A haka can be anything from expressions of joy to a declaration of war.
If the point was to intimidate or worse, then throw the book at her. Just as someone using intimidating or violent language would be ruled against. Doing it in a way specific to a particular culture does not get you protection.
If it was just a display of Maori culture at a poignant moment, expressing grief at the decision, then more leniency can be shown. However I doubt thatâs the case given the physical actions involved.
Begging for attention or doing something that is reasonable can be good.
Getting attention by being disruptive and manipulative is the problem.
Hence the fact they threw the book at her.
Knowing is one thing. Context and intent is another.
The Maori party favour theatrics over results, and always have. One of the most notable examples, there was a motion in the house to change the dress code, which the speaker asked if anyone wanted to second. Nobody did.
The next day, one of their MPs was ejected from the house for not wearing a tie.
You seem to have a very simplistic view of the world, and donât seem to be willing to take other points of view on board, so I donât see much point engaging with you any further.
If I recall correctly it was in response to a bill that would nullify the treaty with the indigenous people. In my mind, trying to gut the agreement that youâll work together and respect each other instead of trying to kill each other is an act of war, any response less than killing people is being respectful.
Wait if Iâm reading this right this punishment comes from something that happened 5 months ago and it will result in them not being allowed to participate in the budget debate? Will thatâs fucking Twisted isnât it? If it was really a punishment for an action why would it not happen sooner? Why would they wait until this critical budget debate to implement it? Seems like maybe itâs just an excuse to stop these people from participating in the budget debate. Like an excuse to stop their constituents from being represented. This is blatantly anti-democratic.
Formfiller@lemmy.world
on 15 May 14:37
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Itâs racism so that the colonialist power structure can continue its genocide without dissent from the people it is targeting
In Spain one congressman, Alberto RodrĂguez RodrĂguez, had his seat removed by a âjudicial decisionâ in 2021 and once the elections passed, in 2024, and he didnât have the seat anymore, that âjudicial decisionâ was reversed, saying that he had to be fined but he shouldnât have lost his seat.
Idk a county where minorities can briefly express disagreement in their own idiom seems pretty nice to me.
MrFinnbean@lemmy.world
on 15 May 12:48
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I somewhat agree, but on the other hand its not the right place to do it.
If somebody would come and play bagpipes, or start yodel in a courtroom or parlament they would be asked to stop too. And i bet if in those cases they would not stop, they would get reprimands too. No matter how cultural it is.
mystique@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 May 20:31
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â'[Parliament is] not the right place to [protest for your rights that Parliament is actively voting to remove].â
non_burglar@lemmy.world
on 15 May 13:34
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You are missing the context of Maori culture being alive and well in NZ, in NZ Parliament and that the haka was a response to the erosion of Maori rights⊠In NZ.
No one was harmed by the haka.
Before you go calling folks disingenuous, you may want to get more background information.
The vote was delayed. You also donât know the reaction of other parliamentary members. The context of the haka is a dance done to intimidate enemies. Maybe some of the other members feel intimidated now.
If I was a parliament member and stood up with 3 of my pals and loudly threatened another member, what do you think would happen to me?
You can consider whatever the heck you want but please donât assert as fact your understanding of the cultural context of an art form from the other side of the globe.
Isnât the point of the Haka to make the opponent uncomfortable? Itâs a war ritual after all. And in this case itâs well applied, if someone wanted to take away my rights I would consider them my enemies too.
SereneSadie@lemmy.myserv.one
on 15 May 13:50
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Sti going to believe that when someone invades your home?
seliaste@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 May 12:58
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Stfu
itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 May 13:14
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Shame on you for calling a deeply historic cultural dance âyelling like an animalâ. Fucking colonizer mindset is still alive and well, it seems
GreyEyedGhost@lemmy.ca
on 15 May 13:38
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Yes, we mustnât do that, instead we should filibuster for 16 hours.
Or, just perhaps, different cultures have different standards for how they protest in a debate.
KAtieTot@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 May 13:41
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You say this, but the people yelling and screaming are typically the ones that are pushing for progress, while the people that hide behind âdecorumâ are the ones trying to strip people of their rights and funnel money into capital.
Also, human beings are animalsâŠ
carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 May 13:55
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what kind of country are you creating
one that doesnât take away the rights of her people
if you want so bad to live in a âcivilizedâ country where Indigenous people donât bother you with their existence, go back to england you fucking colonizer
My man have you seen any parliament session in any democratic country at all? This is very normal for parliament session, it is often rowdy especially when debating a hot and controversial topic, and it IS part of the civilised world.
Colonialist rules to oppress the racialized victims of genocide
2ugly2live@lemmy.world
on 15 May 14:13
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I think that was amazingly awesome. The people saying thereâs a time and place, youâre correct. This was the time and place. Take a stand, make noise, make people uncomfortable. Quiet compliance is what got us here in the first place.
They are the locals. They are indigenous New Zealanders and they are doing something that is customary in their culture in the kind of situation they were in during that session.
The New Zealand lawmakers were trying to pass a bill that would have severely reduced the rights of the locals, and this reaction is part of how the local culture demands people to act.
I think the âinsane peopleâ they were referring to are the people who âthink Americans politics are the best modelâ?
captainlezbian@lemmy.world
on 15 May 17:46
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Also like, itâs fucking Aoteroa. In colonial nations one must be prepared for indigenous members of their government to perform cultural acts of resistance when the colonist faction of the government gets up to some shit.
From the other side of the world I saw her actions powerful and warranted. Though I do come from a country with a history of far less reasonable displays of dissatisfaction in our legislature.
Which one is that and what are the displays? (if you donât mind sharing, of course)
captainlezbian@lemmy.world
on 15 May 19:21
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Itâs America, so in the modern day itâs mostly relegated to shit like reading the phone book or if lucky reading incredibly long relevant things. But weâve had fist fights and duels as a result of congressional conflict.
Culture, in MY politics?? No, no, I need to pretend all people are the same and want the same things I do, if I have the context of culture đ€ą I might have to consider people have valid perspectives I donât share!! /s if we do that here
GalacticGrapefruit@lemmy.world
on 17 May 00:39
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Exactly. White person living on the other side of the god damn planet here, and I cheered when I heard what she did. Sheâs amazing. If all politicians had her moral fiber and backbone, weâd have world peace.
Does the hakka mean the same as it does in western cultures as a peaceful perfomative protest or does that mean something like a threat/declaration of war in Maori culture? Iâd apply the former, but last time I did that I was accused of being orientalist :/
ligma_centauri@lemmy.world
on 16 May 09:47
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It can be both. Traditionally is was a âwar danceâ, but depending on the lyrics and context it can be used as welcoming, a farewell, or many such things. You would have to translate it to know.
threaded - newest
Hell yeah! (Edit, about the haka, đ đ đ not the punishment)
Are you celebrating the punishment?
This doesnât seem like the appropriate response
Well it does if one is a racist arsehole.
Maybe, butâŠtheyâre a blahaj user. It seems far more likely to me that they just misunderstood the news or misinterpreted whatâs going on.
Read his edit. Funny.
Fuck the King
Like the French do.
[Actual video] (youtu.be/25AUCNZKEnY)
That was pretty badass.
Agreed. If that had been targeted at me, I would have crapped my pants.
You can fuck allll the way off.
And after youâre done fucking off, please go right ahead and keep fucking off until you reach the sun
Wait, if we could harness that level of fuck off power, we could transition to renewable energy much sooner.
So donât delay, fuck now, supplies are fucking out
Fuck now, if youâre still alive, six to eight fucks to arrive
And if you fuck more, there may be a tomorrow
But if the offerâs fucked
You might as well be fuckinâ on the sun
So can you really!? Not helpful discourse at all.
I dunno, trying to educate shit people has gotten us nowhere either. Might as well just tell em to fuck off.
When the threats come from governaments you suddenly stop caring i bet
A dance is not equate to a gun, this is not some magical world where people cast spell by dancing đ€Š
Nah, weâre just not bigots like you.
Dance like these is as intimidating as getting booed, they should quit their leadership position if they feel physically threatened by it. Itâs a dance, hon, not waving gun or sword around.
A ritual dance is physical intimidation? I suppose youâd say having aggressive body language (looking angry) is physical intimidation too.
We should put all government officials on valium so they donât accidentally get too emotionally invested in what theyâre discussing, lest they accidentally physically intimidate someone with an angry face.
Obviously ministers with resting-bitch-face will have to be permanently barred from attending parliament, for the safety of their colleagues. We wouldnât want such blatant physical intimidation on the day to day after all.
The point being, if you think a native ritual dance is the same as being physically intimidated, rather than seeing it as their cultureâs way of expressing their feelings on some important matters, then youâre entirely missing the point and showing a lack of understanding of your own nationâs culture at a basic level, and probably shouldnât be representing those same citizens at the government level.
I imagine politicians that clueless would just say âOh my, the natives have gone feral! Look at that display of raw physical intimidation! Jeeves, fetch my musket and donât fire till you see the whites of their eyes!â
If you feel physically intimidated by what is essentially some well known and well respected people in a debating hall being angry about the current topic of discussion and telling you theyâre angry in a recognised and common cultural manner, then I canât help you.
Yes
Yes (but just looking angry is not body language. Itâs a facial expression. Screaming at someone with your arms flailing is aggressive body language)
Do you even know the history of the Haka? Itâs a warriorâs dance to intimidate their foes. Modern haka can have many meanings, but thatâs itâs root.
Hey hey now, whatâs with this intimidating post? Sounds like I may need my gun.
Did you see the video? The arm stuff looks like jazz hands.
Its root is in physical intimidation before battle yes, but on the floor of parliament itâs clearly intended as an act of cultural display of resistance, not one of âdo as we say or we will hurt youâ.
The modern suit comes from military uniforms. Hell, they have a guy with a mace when parliament is in session. This military imagery has come to the authority of the democratic process and appears at least throughout the anglosphere, but itâs using military imagery to do so.
Just as the colonizer uses military imagery to represent the authority and tradition of institutions, the colonized may use their own military imagery to represent opposition to colonial acts.
Yes thereâs lots of ceremonial aspects to parliament and if they wanted to include more maori tradition into it, Iâd be all in favour.
This is akin to randomly bellowing out the national anthem in the middle of a voting session but with more bite. Iâd expect somebody doing that to be sanctioned too.
With the harshest punishment ever given within their government?
You seem very uninformed about the history of the Haka.
There are many different ones, but the most common one, Ka Mate, is usually performed by sports teams before a game, and is meant to be intimidating.
They were historically performed by a tribeâs mightiest warriors when other chiefs came to visit, as one example. Theyâre often a war dance, a show of power.
The audience is supposed to be intimidated
Of course intimidation is the point â psychological/political intimidation, not physical. Context matters. Donât try to pretend that the other MPs were scared they were gonna charge at them with taiahas or something, because thatâs bullshit and you know it.
Actually, I donât think one of the Maori party MPs throwing hands is particularly far fetched.
e: I replied to the wrong comment, sorry. Moved my reply to your parent.
I donât know about other commenters, but Iâm absolutely not uninformed, and this was in no way out of line given the context.
Hakas have evolved from traditional war dances and are often performed at sports events, thatâs true, but the Ka Mate is also performed in many other contexts (including at funerals and after separation of families) and should not be boiled down to simple intimidation â itâs more a show of resolve. Do you think groups of people meeting after a long absence are trying to threaten one another or that mourners are trying to intimidate the deceased? The meaning has nuance and is not a simple threat; itâs about the will to overcome adversity, and is basically the national anthem of the MÄoriâs iwi, which was fought for in this very Parliament, and which resulted in the Haka (Ka Mate) Attribution Act after colonisation. I honestly cannot think of a more fitting time and place to perform it than in this context.
If youâve only seen it in a sports context, I can see how you might think itâs simply a modernised war dance meant to intimidate an opposing group, but thatâs a very reductionist view of it.
From newzealand.com:
You can read the origin of the Ka Mate from New Zealand Geographic â this is not a story of war and intimidation, but of perseverence and the will to overcome.
And hereâs a fantastic breakdown on the meaning and how to perform it from the Australian International School (AIS).
Ka Mate shouldnât be viewed as an intimidation tactic thatâs morphed from war to sports, but as a deeply cultural story that absolutely has a place in New Zealand Parliament, and some overstuffed colonists being offended is disdainful at best.
e: oh, I also meant to mention that, even long ago, haka werenât meant to be simply war dances to intimidate and threaten in preparation for battle but, ideally, to head off the need for battle in the first place. A well-performed haka was in stead of battle, not just in preparation for one. The point was to not have to fight, but to impress and come to agreement. Thatâs nearly the opposite of what many people think these dances were for.
The haka happened last November. They havenât been punished until now. Youâd think if it was that severe they wouldnât wait 5 months to punish them for it.
I wonder how close they anticipate that vote being.
My bet is those 3 votes would have made a difference.
The Speaker sure looked like he wanted to.
Wider angle video showing the whole scope of it plus his reaction, which was priceless.
I think maybe he actually did.
Ah, at more or less frequent time spans I end up searching the internet for all these amazing ritual performances (forgive my ignorance, I am from North Europe so donât really know what it is exactly or what it should be called) of the MÄori.
I get so captured and enchanted by them, itâs so powerful but often also beautiful and somehow extremely sorrowful or whatever emotion the display is intended to signal (or at least ends up signaling to me as a complete ignorant foreigner), I always end up wondering that had Christianity not crusaded our lands and bloodily murdered and genocided our cultures, might we have something equally powerful and captivating to preserve? Itâs not a far fetch because we do have a lot of remnants and first party findings on the old Norwegian and Danish and Swedish cultures of around the Northern European Iron Age for example, that had similar sort of rituals or even just musical tastes and conventions. Our peoples neighbored those, though were distinct and entirely different on most fronts, though a lot of people today fancy conflating us with the âVikingsâ. We were their looting ground for the most part and any influence from their culture on ours wouldâve been likely equally bloodily brought. But I digress.
Had the southerners not crusaded and killed most of us off, snuffed out the light of our culture, forced everyone brutally to follow whatever flavor of Christ each crusade was bringing, maybe I shouldnât feel so amazed by the amazing cultures far away. But maybe we didnât have anything as powerful in the first place, who knows at this pointâŠ
But these shows of force and unity are always so captivating, I end up bingeing videos of them for hours on end, even if I donât really know what they are about and what each of them mean.
I love this. Itâs so close to my heart somehow, feels so close to home, yet itâs a faraway thing.
âŠno. As in: Thatâs not the kind of cultural practice Christianisation wiped out or we wouldnât be burning stuff come spring, dance around maypoles, and whatnot. The Faroese are still into singing sagas as an actual community practice. Missionaries back then werenât trying to regiment people into factory workers, make them sit still on chairs and such.
Itâs kind of a grass is greener on the other side kind of situation. Thereâs a good reason stuff like Heilung is captivating, but thatâs because theyâre modern-day shamans speaking to instincts buried by modernity, not because theyâd be historical in their music or practices. Norse folk music indeed sounded pretty much like Norse folk music does today.
I get your sentiment, but Iâm talking about Finnic heritage and culture, we have some stuff preserved, though a lot of it warped by Christian stuff bleeding into them, but no real knowledge of what the music around here was like. From the Scandinavians, we have even primary sources and good findings, but I am fairly certain what we had here was much different, just not preserved. A lot of the crusades were from the Scandinavians, former âVikingsâ, which means we do have some amount of warped cultural traditions similar to theirs, but that is most likely a result and the outcome of hundred years of crusades, annexation, occupation and conquest. So in a sense itâs true Christianity alone didnât result in our lost cultural traditions, it was the more powerful cousins we have from the West as well.
But I do not agree that itâs entirely just âgrass is greenerâ kind of situation and that the influence and violence from the faiths and the peoples from the South and the West (and the East!) played no critical part in silencing whatever we used to have around here. If we take your proposal for example, that would mean that we were very alike to the Scandinavians, since those are mostly the âpaganâ traditions that remain in some thinned out, distorted ways, here too. But everything, the entirely different language origins, the cultural merging more with the Siberian and Sami peoples on top of our own original foreigness among these Scandinavian neighbors, everything points to it being unlikely our customs were the same. Our religion was entirely different to those of our Western cousins. You would assume the customs, traditions, rites, the music and all, wouldâve been entirely different as well, since most of them leaned into those two things: the language (as in the preservation of:) and the all-encompassing nature of faiths of that time as sort of the merged âscienceâ, culture and religion.
But I was vague in my original comment, which probably lead to this tangent. While Iâm not an academic in the histories of our culture, I have been interested in it and consuming all kinds of content regarding it (the little we haveâŠ) all my life. I feel like I am in line with the current consensus. But maybe not. Take it as you will.
I guess what I want to say overall is that you shouldnât confuse the impact of Christianisation with the impact of being neighbours for millennia. Of course you both have Saunas, why wouldnât they copy you, long before the crusades. Thereâs indubitably lots of influence in areas such as administration, but folk dances, music? Which tax collector has ever cared about that, that kind of thing travels from village to neighbouring village, the occasional travelling musician, not via state structures.
The Catholic Church definitely had influence on music as they had their stuff standardised but then not every village had a church much less a choir much less organ, nor would you want to dance to their chants. They didnât unify Europe musically, why would they care to. What they did do is popularise polyphony.
On the flipside: Tradition is not praying to the ashes, but passing on the fire. If thereâs some specifically Finnish spark that makes you produce the amount and quality of metal that you do then, by all means, do blaze on. Why go backwards, how would that be more authentic.
Fair enough, those are good points.
I might have gotten a little defensive there for no real reason. Itâs a thin line to walk, and unfortunately I find myself often approaching the forbidden (and rightly so) lands of some variation or cultural exceptionalism, and even worse, based on nothing actual or concrete, just vague âwhat-ifâs and imagination.
Sorry about all that
I totally get where youâre coming from, and I agree Christianity did snuff out a lot of that, but not necessarily the way you may be thinking of it. Christianity was a face, tool, and motivation of empire, and empire seeks to standardize culture for the sake of stability. Christianity has deeply powerful cultural performances too. There are traditional catholic rituals that by their nature as a force of colonizing power and as part of globally dominant cultures (and as part of our own cultures) we see differently from this.
This haka was powerful and beautiful, and part of that is by its own merit, but part is that it is people and culture resisting colonial power.
Also, the modern era has been immensely destructive to culture and ritual except where it is intentionally preserved. While it would be easy to pin it on Christianity and the protestant reformation, the reality is that itâs also caused by the formation of nations (the unification of Italy for example created a shared culture between Venice and Rome for the first time since the fall of the western empire), the advent of mass travel and communication, the rise of industrialized lifestyles, and the shift from generation after generation living in the same spot to the normalization of living somewhat far from your family, all of which combined to more or less radically weaken local cultures.
You make sense, itâs easy to reduce these things into a couple of easy âvillainsâ to point my finger at, but in reality things are always much, much more complex.
For whatever reason, itâs a touchy topic for me and often takes a few steps taken back to see it straight so to say.
Thanks for the perspective!
Is it wrong that I found that pretty hot?
<img alt="" src="https://media1.tenor.com/m/AVTuzkjsjwUAAAAC/scooby-doo-scared.gif">
EDIT: Answer: Yes. Yes, it is.
Woman: exists
Gooner: is for me?
The word âgoonerâ has been diluted so much itâs not being used to describe basic words of attractionâŠ
The point being itâs obnoxious that discussions of any female politician at some point have to bring up their attractiveness. Itâs completely irrelevant to the work they do. I canât think of male politicians getting the same treatment.
Her badassery was brought up. Yes, badass women are attractive, deal with it.
Buddy we have women âgooningâ over Luigi Mangione, not a politician but his attractiveness is definitely not why heâs making rounds in the news
So who can regale us on why the current coalition is running cover for colonialists in New Zealand. I thought that was usually a losing move there.
We got the project 2025 test run when a three party far right coalition got elected in 2023. Most regressive, cruel and mean sprited government in a generation.
USA, NZ, Australia, Canada, UK and beyond. They all coordinate, they use the same consultants, the same messages, their AstroTurf political advocacy groups all share info and coordinate policy to make our lives worse and the rich richer. Tailored slightly for local conditions but the same overall goal.
They really are a cancer all over the Western societies.
Can you elaborate? Which country is invading or colonializing NZ? This is genuinely news to me, I assumed NZ is a free country.
Yeah, gotta export that freedom to them Maori and ignore the rule of law by treaty with them yeah? Whatâs that got to do with colonialism? Canât even be related. Who would even think such a thing? I am truly shocked.
Pretty amazing, the NZ conservatives mount a major attack on MÄori and are then intimidated by haka. Snowflakes.
What is MP
Member of Parliament.
This was five months ago. The MPs haka sparked national protest and a nine day march against the Treaty Principles Bill, which did not pass. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Principles_Bill
Sounds like it worked, and now the conservatives are mad and trying to punish?
Pretty much. That and trying to distract people from the details of their budget, which will without doubt be all the usual crap youâd expect from conservatives.
The bill was never going to pass, the other two parties in the coalition had made it very clear they would support the bill to its first reading and no further, and only agreed to support it that far because they couldnât have formed a government otherwise.
This didnât really change anything.
So if it was never going to pass, what was the point of introducing it? Just a provocation?
Because they wanted to get their minor coalition partners the colonialist vote. Which of course means they wanted the colonialist vote by proxy.
Youâll have to ask David Seymour that question.
I would venture to guess that the disciplinary action generated more attention than the haka itself. So a good thing in the end.
There we have it. Theyâre making sure that Maori people wonât have representation when taking away their rights is debated again.
Save this example for the next time some chud tries to tell you colonization is a past event and not an ongoing process right this minute
This sort of thing always strikes me as odd.
There are agreed rules on language, some parliaments have dress code but besides penalties or fines a representative can be served with under no situation a representative can be barred from exercisizing their dutifully elected functions.
I have representatives in my national assembly with criminal charges that none the less exercise as they have been elected.
This is plainly stupid and abusive.
I donât know about the NZ parliament, but in the UK parliament upon which it is based it absolutely possible for members to be thrown out of the chamber. Itâs not even that rare. Famously Dennis Skinner was kicked out for calling them Prime Minister David Cameron âDodgy Daveâ and refusing to retract it.
Are you quoting some rule or just your own expectation?
Iâm in Portugal. Iâve seen direct insults exchanged between representatives, a clear violation of manners and language, and the representative was not removed from the chamber. Their word was removed, a sanction issued, but that was it. We have representatives with active criminal charges in place that were not removed.
It changes from country to country. I some countries they even fight each other and throw stuff with no repercussions.
Youâre thinking of Taiwan?
WellâŠI certainly am now
That makes two, then.
<3
I wasnât but, yeah, its not even that uncommon apparently lol
Sometimes politics requires things thrown at people đ€·
Youâre right it does vary from country to country.
However, I donât personally think it does the process any good if thing can descend into playground insults or violence. Iâm in favour of people being expelled if they canât maintain a base level of behaviour.
Long ago, in the excellent scholarly work entitled Potty Politics, I read that the distance between the lines on the floor of the UK House of Commons, that separate the two parties, is just too wide for crossing swords.
Another Portuguese, the world is small.
Itâs small for others. We are everywhere.
#JustColonialThings
Water under the bridge. We just roam and spread everywhere.
Like water, in fact đ
Only with more mustaches.
I have lots of Portuguese neighbors here in California, so this checks out.
How are those guys? Friendly and caring folks? Or someone you should keep a distance from?
On one side, friendly and caring family, on the other, an asshole. Just people being people!
The other Portuguese people in the neighborhood think heâs an asshole, too.
Throw that guy into the sea. Tell him to swim back. Maybe the swim readjusts his attitude. Those guys are bad PR for us.
Iâve been to enough places to know that good people and assholes are everywhere. But I would like to throw him into the sea!
You have my support!
13.2% of the inhabitants of Luxembourg are Portuguese.
In New Zealand it is pretty common for members of parliament to get thrown out of the chamber for a whole bunch of reasons. In general you have to do whatever the speaker says, sort of like you would a judge in a court proceeding. Thereâs a whole lot ( perhaps dated ) rules around treating other members of the house with respect, letting them speak when their part of the process is up etc.
I think most of this is covered by this list of rules: parliament.nz/âŠ/chapter-3-general-procedures/
Layers of bureaucracy mostly exist to insulate the ruling class from anything that may threaten their power.
The solution, as usual, is to lose faith in the system and fight back in the ways you can. Namely, your wallets.
My wallet as no place in this conversation. It is just a battered piece a leather that is currently struggling to hold two bank cards, some coins and a few receipts. And my identification cards.
Fight with your vote. Support smaller parties. Be politically active. Demand change.
This call for more hakas⊠đȘ
Hakas will continue until morale improves
My morale improved with the first one! âŠthere is room for further improvement though đ€
Colonialism is alive and well in NZ.
It was clear the collective western governance doesn't give a shit about indigenous people when they facilitated, funded, supplied arms, and downplayed the palestinian genocide. Their "human rights" only extends to marketing themselves as moral civilized people, while making themselves rich and powerful comes first.
Honourable cause, not good praxis interjecting it into random topics making people more fed up hearing about it than theyâre fed up hearing about vegans.
White folks stepping on brown folks isnt really a different topic, but I dont really disagree with you here either.
Parliaments have rules dictating behaviour for good reason. If they donât then discussion break down into chaos. So should they be punished? Absolutely.
The severity of that punishment depends on the type of haka and what was intended by it. In all the coverage Iâve seen no translation of what was said. A haka can be anything from expressions of joy to a declaration of war.
If the point was to intimidate or worse, then throw the book at her. Just as someone using intimidating or violent language would be ruled against. Doing it in a way specific to a particular culture does not get you protection.
If it was just a display of Maori culture at a poignant moment, expressing grief at the decision, then more leniency can be shown. However I doubt thatâs the case given the physical actions involved.
They did this right before Parliament was set to vote, and managed to disrupt and delay said vote.
So yes, it was pretty bad.
The video is less than two minutes long
She has done this before. She knows Hakas gets attention. So she is aware of want she is doing.
I agree with you.
THATS THE PURPOSE
the fuck you mean sheâs aware of what she was doing? Fucking commie morons
You misunderstood, you wank.
Begging for attention or doing something that is reasonable can be good. Getting attention by being disruptive and manipulative is the problem. Hence the fact they threw the book at her.
Knowing is one thing. Context and intent is another.
I am not a commie. You commie.
thereâs no difference but perspective you dope
The Maori party favour theatrics over results, and always have. One of the most notable examples, there was a motion in the house to change the dress code, which the speaker asked if anyone wanted to second. Nobody did.
The next day, one of their MPs was ejected from the house for not wearing a tie.
Youâre speaking of criticism of the party I donât care.
This woman did nothing wrong I donât care if it is theatrical, politics is theatrics.
You seem to have a very simplistic view of the world, and donât seem to be willing to take other points of view on board, so I donât see much point engaging with you any further.
And you seem to be a moron who thinks theatrics=bad for some unclear and likely absolutely asinine reason.
This woman did nothing wrong. Youâre just a little tool bag
Lol.
Institutional violence is constant intimidation.
In case youâre actually curious en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka_Mate
Thanks. That does give me more context. Not as bad as it could have been, but certainly has some venom in parts.
Nah you racist. This is her culture and he land and the cunts trying to pull bullshit will get Hakaâd out of parliament
Fuck your decorum
<img alt="" src="https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/ab77acb7-269f-467e-b0e2-7f74d18fd8ee.jpeg">
If I recall correctly it was in response to a bill that would nullify the treaty with the indigenous people. In my mind, trying to gut the agreement that youâll work together and respect each other instead of trying to kill each other is an act of war, any response less than killing people is being respectful.
Wait if Iâm reading this right this punishment comes from something that happened 5 months ago and it will result in them not being allowed to participate in the budget debate? Will thatâs fucking Twisted isnât it? If it was really a punishment for an action why would it not happen sooner? Why would they wait until this critical budget debate to implement it? Seems like maybe itâs just an excuse to stop these people from participating in the budget debate. Like an excuse to stop their constituents from being represented. This is blatantly anti-democratic.
Itâs racism so that the colonialist power structure can continue its genocide without dissent from the people it is targeting
In Spain one congressman, Alberto RodrĂguez RodrĂguez, had his seat removed by a âjudicial decisionâ in 2021 and once the elections passed, in 2024, and he didnât have the seat anymore, that âjudicial decisionâ was reversed, saying that he had to be fined but he shouldnât have lost his seat.
Now everyone, letâs sing: LAWFAREEEEEEEEEEE!
Brazil had an entire presidential coup based around the same logic.
Have you seen the things average MPs get away with in NZ (and Australia) in parliament ?
Why would your idea of ânormalâ be more justified than that of others?
Found the guy whoâs never seen a Prime Ministerâs Question Time.
Idk a county where minorities can briefly express disagreement in their own idiom seems pretty nice to me.
I somewhat agree, but on the other hand its not the right place to do it.
If somebody would come and play bagpipes, or start yodel in a courtroom or parlament they would be asked to stop too. And i bet if in those cases they would not stop, they would get reprimands too. No matter how cultural it is.
â'[Parliament is] not the right place to [protest for your rights that Parliament is actively voting to remove].â
You are missing the context of Maori culture being alive and well in NZ, in NZ Parliament and that the haka was a response to the erosion of Maori rights⊠In NZ.
No one was harmed by the haka.
Before you go calling folks disingenuous, you may want to get more background information.
The vote was delayed. You also donât know the reaction of other parliamentary members. The context of the haka is a dance done to intimidate enemies. Maybe some of the other members feel intimidated now.
If I was a parliament member and stood up with 3 of my pals and loudly threatened another member, what do you think would happen to me?
Wouldnât want parliamentary process to be disrupted in any way by Maoriâs expressing concern about laws that are going to affect them negatively.
/s
Can you elaborate further on the cultural context of the haka, fellow American?
I really hate this âyouâre an outsider so you canât have an opinionâ. Am I only allowed to consider things in America?
You can consider whatever the heck you want but please donât assert as fact your understanding of the cultural context of an art form from the other side of the globe.
Did he fucking stutter? If anything, it sounds like delaying the vote was an attempt to prevent harm.
That doesnât count as âharmâ either, you dishonest ass.
lol thatâs a hell of a strawman
âyouâre being disingenuous, what about child sacrificeâ
Youâre racist thatâs her culture not yelling like an animal.
Way to be an ignorant dweeb dude definitely take that shit back maybe delete your comment.
Get fucked, loser. Their culture, their land.
âMight makes rightâ - you
Isnât the point of the Haka to make the opponent uncomfortable? Itâs a war ritual after all. And in this case itâs well applied, if someone wanted to take away my rights I would consider them my enemies too.
Sti going to believe that when someone invades your home?
Stfu
Shame on you for calling a deeply historic cultural dance âyelling like an animalâ. Fucking colonizer mindset is still alive and well, it seems
Yes, we mustnât do that, instead we should filibuster for 16 hours.
Or, just perhaps, different cultures have different standards for how they protest in a debate.
You say this, but the people yelling and screaming are typically the ones that are pushing for progress, while the people that hide behind âdecorumâ are the ones trying to strip people of their rights and funnel money into capital.
Also, human beings are animalsâŠ
one that doesnât take away the rights of her people
if you want so bad to live in a âcivilizedâ country where Indigenous people donât bother you with their existence, go back to england you fucking colonizer
My man have you seen any parliament session in any democratic country at all? This is very normal for parliament session, it is often rowdy especially when debating a hot and controversial topic, and it IS part of the civilised world.
Colonialist rules to oppress the racialized victims of genocide
I think that was amazingly awesome. The people saying thereâs a time and place, youâre correct. This was the time and place. Take a stand, make noise, make people uncomfortable. Quiet compliance is what got us here in the first place.
The people critizing her think Americans politics are the best model.
American here and who the fuck are these insane people
Gross. An American.
You know a lot of us hate our government too right?
Yeah you wonât shut the fuck up about it
Okay but in this thread weâre trying to express solidarity with the Maori; do you mind?!
They are the locals. They are indigenous New Zealanders and they are doing something that is customary in their culture in the kind of situation they were in during that session.
The New Zealand lawmakers were trying to pass a bill that would have severely reduced the rights of the locals, and this reaction is part of how the local culture demands people to act.
I think the âinsane peopleâ they were referring to are the people who âthink Americans politics are the best modelâ?
Also like, itâs fucking Aoteroa. In colonial nations one must be prepared for indigenous members of their government to perform cultural acts of resistance when the colonist faction of the government gets up to some shit.
From the other side of the world I saw her actions powerful and warranted. Though I do come from a country with a history of far less reasonable displays of dissatisfaction in our legislature.
Which one is that and what are the displays? (if you donât mind sharing, of course)
Itâs America, so in the modern day itâs mostly relegated to shit like reading the phone book or if lucky reading incredibly long relevant things. But weâve had fist fights and duels as a result of congressional conflict.
Culture, in MY politics?? No, no, I need to pretend all people are the same and want the same things I do, if I have the context of culture đ€ą I might have to consider people have valid perspectives I donât share!! /s if we do that here
Exactly. White person living on the other side of the god damn planet here, and I cheered when I heard what she did. Sheâs amazing. If all politicians had her moral fiber and backbone, weâd have world peace.
They did a dance and were suspended. Sounds like New Zealand parliament is channeling their inner magat.
Can they appeal to the courts?
Boo
Every parliament record here in Hungary
Does the hakka mean the same as it does in western cultures as a peaceful perfomative protest or does that mean something like a threat/declaration of war in Maori culture? Iâd apply the former, but last time I did that I was accused of being orientalist :/
It can be both. Traditionally is was a âwar danceâ, but depending on the lyrics and context it can be used as welcoming, a farewell, or many such things. You would have to translate it to know.
makes sense
Unconscionable.