Ukraine is ignoring US warnings to end drone operations inside Russia
(www.economist.com)
from breetai@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 20 Apr 2024 04:56
https://lemmy.world/post/14490282
from breetai@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 20 Apr 2024 04:56
https://lemmy.world/post/14490282
I don’t blame them. Ukraine needs to take the war to Russia to win.
#world
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What warnings? Last I heard the very deliberate language was that the US “Did not encourage” strikes inside Russian territory. Has that language escalated?
Can’t read the article due to the torrent of pop ups unfortunately because I’m very interested to know the basis of the headline.
archive.ph/…/ukraine-is-ignoring-us-warnings-to-e…
Just put
archive.ph/in front of the URL.The article is paywalled anyway.
The basis for the title is that Ukraine is still hitting targets in Russia. Honestly, I don’t believe the US was serious about their comments opposing those strikes. US oil companies will just make more profits after all.
I believe the argument was that it would raise global oil prices but that wouldn’t make sense unless Russia is doing a better job of bypassing sanctions than we know about. There have been rumblings of Russia using intermediate countries to move oil and other resources, so there is that.
And note the source. It’s basically an industry rag.
If anything, it’s an obligatory, “no… please… don’t…” to maintain plausible deniability.
archive.is/…/ukraine-is-ignoring-us-warnings-to-e…
last section of the document <img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b6fe3319-d3c9-4f46-ae8e-aff51453e7d2.jpeg">
It just seems super vague to me. It says that they are ignoring the advice to call off the strikes, but there’s nothing in there from an official or anything about what exactly they are being advised. Maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but it doesn’t seem definitive at all as to what’s being communicated.
It is vague and it needs to be because at best this is second hand account of what it was said.
Punish Russia for invading your country and if it hurts their economy perhaps that will deter other countries from pulling the same crap.
The article is paywalled but I’m guessing the warnings are because of the energy economics involved. If an effective counter-offensive drives up oil prices then maybe that will be the (admittedly likely painful) push the world needs to finally swap to other forms of energy. I’m aware it might hurt, but I think it’s long overdue regardless of wars and the decades of stalling for economic reasons has done a lot of harm to the world.
Ukraine should only consider the comments of countries sending money and weapons.
When the US starts to send money again, then the US can comment.
If Ukraine wants US money, maybe they should listen to them?
Israel doesn’t, they get US money all the time.
I have this feeling if Ukraine used the cash portion of the aid packages to lobby and buy the politicians they might be actually be able to supply themselves with meaningful procurement.
The Saudis as well. Despite 9/11.
I feel it’s a seismic shift in the position of the USA as a world power. Netanyahu has stopped listening and has faced no repercussions, so naturally Zelenskyy is doing the same. Completely withdrawing support for both Israel and Ukraine doesn’t appear to be in the USA’s best interests.
This could be a stretch but maybe it has to do with Trump and the likelihood he’s going to turn around and tell both sides to quit prolonging these wars and either finish off their opponents or get to signing a peace treaty.
For Israel it means escalating (as evidenced by how they’re poking the other bear - Iran - in the region) and for the Ukraine doing as much damage as possible to weaken the Russians so a peace treaty appears the better option over continuing to fight against an opponent who won’t lay down.
I could also be talking out of my exhaust pipe. I’ve been paying less and less attention to these conflicts the longer they’ve gone on.
That filthy orange traitor isn’t getting back into the Whitehouse
And it’s just Ukraine, not “the Ukraine”. Your use of the official Russian belittlement tells me all I need to know.
Trump can still win. Part of his path to victory is useful idiots in the left voting PSL while chanting “Genocide Joe” and pretending the trolley problem doesn’t exist and that they’re not strapped to the track their decision is leading towards.
In Australian media they are referred to as Ukraine and the Ukraine. You certainly missed that I used both conventions. Try not to assume that the language used denotes a position.
As for Trump, I certainly hope he is not elected again, but the election needs to happen first.
A what should they listen to? This false news like you?
Didn’t they just approve an aid package this morning?
In addition to the 80 billion they’ve already sent?
It went through the house, it is not yet approved. And for 8 months now, Ukraine has gotten no support from the US.
What, really? August was the last aid package?
Pretty much, the repubs have been holding aid hostage like a bunch of petulant children. MTG and Johnson leading the way, sucking on that orange tanned dong.
Dang, I’ve been traveling since the end of last year, I hadn’t realized they’d been f****** with the aid for so long. Dicks.
Yep, I see them as traitors. Regan is rolling in his grave right now.
No doubt on the treason charges.
They literally sent in forged elector certificates to try to trick NARA and pence into falsely certifying trump.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/0fdde844-5c39-41e2-9f27-02b3c573dec4.gif">
As an American, I support Ukraine droning inside Russia. Fuck up their power plants, oil production, and bases! I believe most Americans would agree that in war, this tactic is fair game.
Power plants are not valid military targets though. No one should be attacking those and it’s always wrong to do so.
Edit: I posted this comment and immediately went to bed. After waking up and looking at responses, I’m absolutely disgusted with people justifying and approving war crimes. Attacking civilian infrastructure like power plants is a WAR CRIME and that’s why it’s a huge deal that Russia has been attacking power plants. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
Edit 2: alright, time for links since people seem unconvinced. Both the ICC and the UN consider the attacks by Russia on Ukrainian civilian infrastructure to be war crimes. If it’s wrong for Russia to do, it’s wrong for everyone to do.
It’s morally wrong to do so. At the end of the day, like every single other war in the human history sadly , the right side is the winning one, be It bombing power plants, hospitals or houses.
Unless nobody wins. Attacking targets with no clear strategic advantage out of spite is animalistic and stupid. Just take out the relay stations.
Seems I’m getting downvoted. Just to be clear, I condemn war and armed conflicts, If i could make so, no guns would ever be fired.
My point is, it’s pointless to argue about the “should be” or “could be”, I’m just stating the actual, current state of matters.
There’s ALWAYS a winner, in fact, If a war started, someone is already winning, be It one of the involved parties, be It a guns supplier or a manufacturing plant making tanks.
It’s naive to think that, people with power to decide what to do in a war, will prioritize a “good and moral war”, over getting what they want from It.
Maybe you and I can’t see any advantage over an attack and label It stupid, but it is what it is, and maybe the actual intent is not clear to us.
Anyways, war is bad, but don’t be naive.
If a country’s wartime decisions are made by people who benefit solely from death and destruction, then that country lost before the war even began. I don’t see that being the case with the defenders in this conflict, Ukraine.
In war, everyone loses.
I beg to differ: Adnan Khashoggi, a famous arms dealer, considered one the richest mans of the 1980s, active on the Iran-Contra affair. Viktor Bout, famous russian arms dealer active on the FARC. Sir Basil Zaharoff, greek arms dealer active on the Balkan Wars
And these are just a few most notorious ones.
As I said, when a war starts, someone is already winning, it’s a sad but true reality.
Maybe. But destroying the Russian dictatorship is a moral obligation for everyone in the free world.
All Russian infrastructure and assets are valid targets. Both inside and outside of Russia.
Attacking civilian infrastructure like power plants is a WAR CRIME and that’s why it’s a huge deal that Russia has been attacking power plants. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. All moral obligations are equal. That means doing unethical and immoral actions in pursuit of an ethical and moral goal means you are no longer fighting a good fight.
Power plants are valid military targets.
reuters.com/…/when-are-attacks-civilian-infrastru…
Claiming that they’re typically valid targets is very different from “sometimes they are, in extreme circumstances”.
Yes apples are not oranges, so why are you trying to change the subject?
AFAIK there is not a single example of Ukraine attacking power plants in Russia.
An oil depot or refinery is NOT a powerplant. Russia has more than enough oil to serve their population, but maybe they can’t serve the military 100% too, if Russia chooses to prioritize their illegal military invasion over their own population, that’s a Russian problem. As long as Russia prioritize oil for their military, oil is a valid military target.
I’m not trying to change the subject. The OP tried to slip a war crime target in with valid military targets, and I wanted to set the record straight.
Sorry, Russia already lost the right to say Ukraine shouldn’t be hitting their power plants.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. If Russia started using VX gas, would it be acceptable for Ukraine to start using Sarin? Absolutely fucking not. There is never a legitimate excuse for a war crime.
There’s one actually. Survival.
If the situation gets to a point where your existence on the planet becomes problematic, you take the gloves off, you fight back with everything you can, especially if you’re protecting those that you love.
Having said that, fuck war, and fuck war crimes. Wish the UN could resolve this crap before it gets to where we are now.
At least Ukraine is not doing it in the middle of winter, unlike Russia.
Power plants areUkraine is not a valid military target though. No one should be attackingthoseit and it’s always wrong to do so.FTFY
Well yes, but starting a war suddenly and without declaration isn’t a war crime.
Well yes, butstarting a warsuddenly and without declaration isn’tis awarcrime.FTFY as well.
Look, I’m about as anti-war as they come. But in the capitalist neoliberal rules-based order, war happens constantly all over the world and the best we can do is enforce the provisions of the Geneva Convention. No good will come from equating war generally with war crimes right now. There will be a point where we can call war a crime against humanity, but the Overton window isn’t there yet.
Why are you framing it as if capitalism and neoliberalism are causing war? Isn’t this one of the most peaceful times in human history?
It’s not that they’re the cause of all war, but neoliberal capitalism is the root of all modern conflicts.
Sure they are. You’d make a terrible military leader.
And you’d end up in the Hague.
Buddy, I can smell the straw from here. Ukraine isn’t attacking Russia’s critical infrastructure out of some need for retribution. If a grizzly bear attacks you, you hit that thing in any sensitive spot you can reach until it backs off. Otherwise you’re dead. That’s the situation Ukraine has been in from the start. They’ve been persistently outgunned and outmanned. The only way to get Russia to stop is to hit them where it hurts.
I’m not making some kind of strawman argument. I’m correcting the OP, because attacking civilian infrastructure is a war crime. If Russia starts using chemical weapons, should Ukraine start too? If you have any sense of ethics, you’d say no.
Congratulations, you’ve successfully justified a war crime.
You are incorrect. Please don’t spread misinformation.
…duke.edu/…/is-attacking-the-electricity-infrastr…
ohchr.org/…/war-crimes-indiscriminate-attacks-inf…
The UN disagrees.
The UN isn’t in charge of war crimes. Since the power systems are used to fight a war. They are legit targets.
It’s explained to you in the cite I gave you. It’s hard to take you seriously when you try to cite the UN who put Iran in charge of human rights.
Neither is Duke. I would call an international convention of nations far more legitimate than any college on this matter.
Then were the charges? Where is the UN voting to use force to arrest Putin ? Exactly. The UN is worthless.
Here are the charges. Who would have guessed international conventions influence international courts?
pbs.org/…/international-court-seeks-the-arrest-of…
That isn’t the UN
Lol so fucking what? You’re wrong dude, it’s ok to admit it. There’s no shame in being wrong.
I’m not wrong. You claim it’s always illegal. Yet your cites don’t say that. My cites say it is lot always illegal and explains why.
We are talking about Ukraine attacking Russia. You are trying to oddly cite Russia attacking Ukraine.
Just take an l and move on or actually cite your claim
I didn’t think I had to say this, but I’m arguing an ethical position that happens to coincide with international law. I think it’s always wrong to bomb infrastructure. In this war between Ukraine and Russia, it’s a definitive war crime and it would be a violation of international law for Ukraine to strike a power plant in Russia.
The ethical position is that civilian infrastructure like power plants, hospitals, dams, bridges, etc should never be attacked. This is because fake justifications can be made to attack that infrastructure, as we see in Israel’s genocide.
Ethics is different than law.
Nice observation. I’m arguing 2 compatible things simultaneously, one is legal that obviously has exceptions. The other is ethical to argue that the “exceptions” are just excuses for killing civilians.
The geneva conventions and other treaties that established what we call the international conventions on warfare were not written by he UN, amd the UN has no jurisdiction on them. The geneva convention was held in 1864, about 80 years before the UN was formed.
The ICRC is the jurisdiction in “charge” of defining warcrimes.
In any case, warcrimes are contextual. Bombing a power plant in one instance may be a legitimate target in war, while in another case, where Russias goal was to cause civilians to freeze and suffer, may very well be. However, I am not a lawyer of the international criminal courts.
Again, so fucking what if the UN isn’t directly involved with charging and sentencing war crimes. The UN, the ICJ, and the ICC are all international organizations. When one makes a claim, it’s highly likely that the others will follow suit.
Citation needed
Civilian infrastructure can in fact a valid target if it assist the military. Electricity generation is used to maintain many military systems, including telecommunications, logistics, lighting, radar systems, and all sorts of manufacturing capability that assists the military.
So fucking what? Attacking civilian power infrastructure isn’t the solution to fighting an enemy. Attack the military comms, logistics, lighting, radar, and manufacturing instead. Then everyone knows the attack is absolutely justified.
There have been no such calls for Ukraine to stop attacking Russia. The article is behind a paywall, and there are no corroborating stories from any credible news sites. According to the same article on yahoo news, the White House claimed its due to oil prices. The US gets its oil from Canada, Mexico, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Brazil. The headline has no merit.
Stop posting paywalled articles
archive.md/YUUFV
US to Israel: is ok bb don’t worry big daddy will take care of those deadly deadly dwones for you, here have another million dollars and Google AI
US to Ukraine: pls don’t drone Russia :(
this is a fake story, there haven't been any "warnings".. it's pure propaganda being shoveled by the Russians..
You’re calling the economist Russian propaganda? Jesus Christ, you really have lost the thread 🤣.
No, he’s calling the story Russian propaganda.
Oh huge difference! The biggest difference. Definitely not pedantics.
I don’t know you, so I won’t say that you’re an idiot. But your comment is idiotic.
See? It doesn’t have to be pedantic.
“Anything I don’t agree with is Russian propaganda.”
There was only one claim being called a Russian propaganda, and that is the warning from US.
Why don’t you disprove that instead of acting like an idiot and copy pasting some tired old troll comments?
It actually is a big difference, they could just be useful idiots posting bullshit they got from a bad source, rather than intentionally posting propaganda. Like the Russian controlled Republican politicians
you're obviously a troll.. there haven't been any "warnings", you troll.. the Ukrainians are free to bomb the Kremlin..
they are shoveling Russian propaganda for some reason, like a lot of people do either knowingly or not
Bingo. IF anyone said something it was more like, “it would be terrible if you accidentally blew up this target at these coordinates following this route through Russia’s shit air defense. Why that would be a real shame and potentially piss Russia off.”
It sure looks like it with the headline claim substantiated behind a paywall and no corroborating reports on credible websites.
Every time I see headlines like these I remember that Ukraine denied the US told them to stop hitting oil plants in Russia, but people kept repeating the story.
Anyway…
Ukrainian forces launched a drone attack on Kardymovo, Smolensk Oblast tonight, successfully hitting a pair of Russian oil depots.
Both of the complexes are heavily burning.
US: please stop hitting logistic targets inside Russia!!!
Meanwhile
Russia: targets Ukrainian hospitals, power stations, gas depots, telecom infrastructure, emergency aid infrastructure, schools, parks, apartment buildings, restaurants, etc etc etc.
i want to see an FPV video of putin being chased by a drone and the benny hill music playing
They are fighting in the fucking defensive war. What fucking logic is that? They should even cross the Russian border if needed.
Stop playing so much call of duty
Stop making vague mildly stupid comments.
That’s literally how war works, what’s your solution? Water pistols at 30 paces?
Hopefully China nukes you soon
Aww come on, you can do better than that. Let’s take it from the top and try again with feeling.
Hilariously if the US gets nuked so does the rest of the planet so your hope is both childish and hilariously idiotic.
Lolol Ukraine trading the war to Russia.
Putin is a cunt but that’s a pipe dream.
Ukraine is usa “ally” now, they must do what usa says
Israel doesn’t, and they bombed Syria and Iran, as well as Gaza, Lebanon and… where else?
Good. Fuck russia.
Why would the USA expect Ukraine to listen to them when Israel gets more aid & regularly lies to the USA with 0 repercussions?
Israel doesn’t get more aid. Unless you consider total aid since 1946 adjusted for inflation, then yes, but that wouldn’t make sense. Israel gets 3.3 billion a year. Since February 2022, the United States has allocated $113.4 billion in emergency funding to support Ukraine.
‘They don’t get more money unless you count all the money’
Unless you count all the aid from before Ukraine was even an independent country?
Just because they have been supported by the US for a longer time.
I am not a fan of sending them anything, but that doesnt mean that they get more than ukraine this year and for the past 5-10 years, which is what you should compare.
Israel probably hasn’t gotten more aid in the last 2 years but overall they might have. Also, assuming this is even true, why would Ukraine listen to the US since they have abandoned support of Ukraine?
Apt, considering what the US did in the Middle East with their own drones.
As they should, I hope they somehow take out Putin
Biden wants to tank the Russian economy, not for Ukraine to win. Hitting their oil will rise the global price and lose him the election.
I hope Ukraine wins and takes a cut of Russian territory as compensation.
Yes, ukraine should lose some more soldiers to take a cut out of russia, to really show them. /s
Damn, this position at the sideline, rooting for our team, surley is comfortable.
alas, i am afraid that even if ukraine is able to restore its territorial integrity, most of russian citizens won’t understand that their government did something wrong. russia won’t ever be humiliated like nazi germany, to force people to think what they did wrong.
i am afraid of newer russian revanshionism and i am afraid of what their post imperial phantom pains will make them do in the future.
my impression is that majority of the russian citizens feel pain regarding the ‘lost lands’ as they often put it, as a result of ussr collapse.
Nazi Germany was “humiliated “ because they were occupied and force to learn of their crimes.
Russia cant must be allowed to get off Scot free for this shit. They need to be dismantled to nullify future harm, and forced to confront and acknowledge their crimes.
And why shouldn’t they?
Because all is apparently not fair in love and war.
That’s how stupid we’ve gotten.
How about this: we’re allowed to tell them how to run their war as long as we supply them an uninterrupted pipeline of the shit they need to win it the way they’re telling us to.
Oh wait: we already tried that, except we not only didn’t even do it well, but also didn’t hold up our end of the bargain because of fucking fascist far-right politicians. So we kinda fucked that one up, didn’t we?
I hate that it took this long but the aid package cleared the house and is expected to clear the Senate. This just happened yesterday npr.org/…/ukraine-military-assistance-house-vote-…
Oh I know. All I’m saying is that any semblance of justification for exerting strategic oversight of their war is gone, considering the political fuckery we just pulled in the last 6 months that had very real and negative consequences for Ukraine.
Oh yeah that’s absolutely fair! I mainly threw this comment up because it’s super fresh news so I was hoping to help spread it a bit.
You dont keep th armed they gotta do what they gotta do. Buy in or bug off
I like the Economist but maybe posting their articles here should be avoided since no one can obviously read them so everyone is just commenting about the headline.