I hope so. And bill the “ghost fleet” for any costs.
shoulderoforion@fedia.io
on 14 Jan 00:22
nextcollapse
"travel bans"? huh. you'd think the finish would be aware if russia wants their people back, and those people are free to roam the streets, they're gonna come and get em. these fuckers should be in jail, safely behind bars until trial.
Indeed.
I for one would like these ass hats to have a good look at the culture they were so willing to fuck with, for such little money. The best view is not from a prison cell.
At this point it's literally a war crime. Claim denial and accidents all they wanted before, but if the sailors are outright acknowledging it was intentional to attack civilian infrastructure, it's by definition a war crime
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 14 Jan 10:37
collapse
Germany has supported Israel with weapons whilst knowing they were committing a Genocide, so the answer for Germany is probably “Yes”, at least as an accomplice.
The answer for the Republic Of Ireland is as far as I know “No”.
I don’t think it’s officially a war. So it’s a regular crime and I think that’s also better, because the victim country can react more quickly and more powerful.
Hang the captain and first mate, take the oil, sink the ship. This is how we’ve always dealt with pirates.
seven_phone@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 01:49
nextcollapse
An extremely public trial would be more effective.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 01:50
collapse
can’t get more public than a hanging on the docks that’s live streamed.
friend_of_satan@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 02:24
nextcollapse
You definitely could. A hanging lasts less than a day. A trial could stay in the Overton window for much longer.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 03:39
nextcollapse
like Trumps? or Epstein? or the Pandora Papers?
the list goes on and on.
Overton window is broken. Putin threw someone out of it.
friend_of_satan@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 12:16
collapse
The point in question here is how public the event would be, not how effective. So in that regard, yes, Trump’s and even Epstien’s trials were quite public, regardless of how effective they were at rendering justice.
You’re attacking a straw man, which is how effective the judicial system was. As for that attack, you’re absolutely right. Those three instances had laughable results and dumbfounding failures of justice.
Remember these are not pirates they are crew being told what to do with families back in Mother Russia and a great many pressures on them. Better a trial with all the details spewing forth and Russia blaming birdstrike and threatening armageddon over a cable.
GreenKnight23@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 03:43
nextcollapse
I can’t have sympathy for someone who’s committed war crimes.
I agree that having a platform to expose Russian interference is helpful, I also think setting an example to those who are helping Russia (coerced or not) is far more helpful than exposing Russia.
FelixCress@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 07:22
nextcollapse
Pirates are not state sponsored they are self motivated and opportunist, the people responsible here are likely reluctant state operatives, possibly not fully aware of the consequences.
Pirates are not state sponsored they are self motivated and opportunist, the people responsible here are likely reluctant state operatives, possibly not fully aware of the consequences.
Thats one far fetched speculation after another.
You have no idea if they are state sponsored or not, and no data to prove it either way. Their actions follow a pattern of state sponsored destruction, but somehow you deny it. Seems you are just making stuff up here.
How am I using other accounts to mark myself up? I have no way to prove it (although I imagine maybe a mod could), but you’re wrong about my using multiple accounts too. This making up stuff is a habit for you, I see.
HootinNHollerin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 14 Jan 02:56
nextcollapse
Strap em to an anchor
tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 14 Jan 05:23
collapse
Fuck them with a rusty anchor
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 04:13
nextcollapse
Scrap the ship, don’t sink it. We have more than enough waste on the bottom of the various oceans and seas as is.
TheMightyCanuck@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Jan 04:50
nextcollapse
You can responsibly strip and scuttle large vessels to help facilitate reef development
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 04:55
collapse
Fair enough, but that’s still a form of scrapping as opposed to outright immediate sinking of the vessel. Far too often vessles are sunk, mostly intact, and that is causing countless amounts of pollution in our waterways.
The head of the investigation, Risto Lohi of the National Bureau of Investigation, told Reuters the vessel was threatening to cut a second power cable, Estlink1, and the BalticConnector gas pipe between Finland and Estonia at the time it was seized.
“Lohi” is Finnish for “salmon”. That’s right. Inspector Salmon is in charge of this investigation. Thankyou, Finland.
KnowledgeableNip@sh.itjust.works
on 14 Jan 15:33
nextcollapse
Oh my gosh people Finland isn’t even real. They’re is no landmass. FIN-LAND. It’s all fish! They’re even rubbing our faces in it with these stupid names.
hungryphrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 15 Jan 19:06
collapse
Steal some of the oil.
Replace it at correct stoichiometric ratio with ammonium nitrate or some other powerful oxidiser.
Attach a detonator and tracking device to the ship.
Don’t tell the crew.
Let the crew go free.
When the ship reaches its destination, detonate.
Halifax explosion, round two.
I should maybe add that I don’t think this is actually a good idea.
I can just see that it’s scientifically possible, and I enjoy constructing scenarios like this.
But to those who are riding Putin’s dick, just know that these are the things the West could do, but chooses not to. And the fuck you to all buyers of Russian oil still stands. I don’t care how poor they are.
bomibantai@lemmy.world
on 14 Jan 13:02
nextcollapse
“…these are the things the West could do, but chooses not to.”
Yeah, the West does whatever TF it’s done in Afghanistan, Iraq, West Asia, whatever France has done in Africa.
“fuck you to all buyers of Russian oil”
You mean like the US and EU? What do u think happens to the Russian oil once it’s refined to actual useful oil?
The US and EU might buy a little, but most of it is being bought by China, India, and Africa at a steep discount. As I’m sure you know.
Everybody buying Russian oil deserves scorn, even if they are living in the EU or the US.
Afghanistan and Iraq were terrible mistakes. And many (most?) NATO states had nothing to do with Iraq.
Not that it matters right now.
I’m talking about Russia’s imperialism right now.
Throughout the deeply stupid and shameful invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and this is true, the US never detonated a cargo ship sized bomb killing ten thousand people in a busy port city just because they bought sanctioned oil.
You realize that a lot of Russian oil gets “laundered” and then imported to the EU? So you would likely blow up an EU port, which is like a double Christmas and birthday gift to Putin.
It would probably blow up the port doing the laundering, which is unlikely to be happening in the EU.
But it would even more likely blow up an Indian or Chinese port.
It doesn’t matter.
Like I said, I think this is a really bad idea.
Mainly because it is collective punishment, and almost all of the thousands of victims would have had nothing to do with their corporations’ and their governments’ decision to buy that oil.
They also pump oil from ship to ship while at sea. It is said that this ship in particular also was involved in such maneuvers, which of course are highly dangerous and can easily result in oil spilled.
Edit: I thought that the gulf of Finland was narrower than it is, and this affects the relevance of my comment. See boredtortoise's reply below
Under UNCLOS at least, a country can board a ship within its territorial waters to investigate a crime "if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State" (and some other reasons). Sinking it is almost certainly illegal, but it's an unarmed ship and Finland has marines so I can't imagine that they'd have much trouble boarding it if they wanted to
The boat was caught on international waters without an anchor when the event happened. The Coast guard asked it kindly to move into Finnish waters where the police boarded the boat with the border guard giving a chopper ride.
No marine equivalents were actually needed which has the benefit of the apprehension not being a military action which could’ve easily been made escalatory in propaganda.
Ahh shit, I had just assumed that the gulf of Finland was narrow enough that it was all someone's territorial water, but it isn't. Thanks for the correction, I will edit a note into my comment
Regarding the marines thing, that was not because I thought Finland actually had used them, more an "if the crew actually did try to fight about it, Finland is quite capable of winning that fight"
threaded - newest
I wonder if NATO is going to try and enforce a blockade where any ship travelling through the area of cables must be escorted.
I hope so. And bill the “ghost fleet” for any costs.
"travel bans"? huh. you'd think the finish would be aware if russia wants their people back, and those people are free to roam the streets, they're gonna come and get em. these fuckers should be in jail, safely behind bars until trial.
They are still on the ship, and cannot get to land because of the lack of visas.
We can dump them in a rowboat near Russias border. Keeping them just means feeding them. They are not worth the food.
The crew isn’t Russian though. Just hired help that don’t care too much what they’re paid to do. Russia doesn’t care about their fate.
Indeed. I for one would like these ass hats to have a good look at the culture they were so willing to fuck with, for such little money. The best view is not from a prison cell.
One does not simply leave Finland.
At this point it's literally a war crime. Claim denial and accidents all they wanted before, but if the sailors are outright acknowledging it was intentional to attack civilian infrastructure, it's by definition a war crime
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949?activeTab=1949GCs-APs-and-commentaries
War crimes don’t matter anymore. Russia does them, Israel does them, the US does them. There is no justice.
Does Germany do them any more? How about Ireland?
Germany has supported Israel with weapons whilst knowing they were committing a Genocide, so the answer for Germany is probably “Yes”, at least as an accomplice.
The answer for the Republic Of Ireland is as far as I know “No”.
Sounds to me like war crimes are still a pretty good way to determine who the good guys are, then.
Russia has been using the list of war crimes as a checklist of things to do for 3 years
Much, much longer than that. But yes, they picked up the pace again in recent years.
Nah. You have just been paying attention for three years.
I don’t think it’s officially a war. So it’s a regular crime and I think that’s also better, because the victim country can react more quickly and more powerful.
Hang the captain and first mate, take the oil, sink the ship. This is how we’ve always dealt with pirates.
An extremely public trial would be more effective.
can’t get more public than a hanging on the docks that’s live streamed.
You definitely could. A hanging lasts less than a day. A trial could stay in the Overton window for much longer.
like Trumps? or Epstein? or the Pandora Papers?
the list goes on and on.
Overton window is broken. Putin threw someone out of it.
The point in question here is how public the event would be, not how effective. So in that regard, yes, Trump’s and even Epstien’s trials were quite public, regardless of how effective they were at rendering justice.
You’re attacking a straw man, which is how effective the judicial system was. As for that attack, you’re absolutely right. Those three instances had laughable results and dumbfounding failures of justice.
Sink the boat so it interrupts shipping into one of their waterways. Do it with every sabotage boat from now on.
Remember these are not pirates they are crew being told what to do with families back in Mother Russia and a great many pressures on them. Better a trial with all the details spewing forth and Russia blaming birdstrike and threatening armageddon over a cable.
I can’t have sympathy for someone who’s committed war crimes.
I agree that having a platform to expose Russian interference is helpful, I also think setting an example to those who are helping Russia (coerced or not) is far more helpful than exposing Russia.
Being told to commit crimes. So, like pirates?
Pirates are not state sponsored they are self motivated and opportunist, the people responsible here are likely reluctant state operatives, possibly not fully aware of the consequences.
Thats one far fetched speculation after another.
You have no idea if they are state sponsored or not, and no data to prove it either way. Their actions follow a pattern of state sponsored destruction, but somehow you deny it. Seems you are just making stuff up here.
You are being deliberately obtuse and using other accounts to mark yourself up so no more food for you.
How am I using other accounts to mark myself up? I have no way to prove it (although I imagine maybe a mod could), but you’re wrong about my using multiple accounts too. This making up stuff is a habit for you, I see.
Good point, Vlad.
Strap em to an anchor
Fuck them with a rusty anchor
Scrap the ship, don’t sink it. We have more than enough waste on the bottom of the various oceans and seas as is.
You can responsibly strip and scuttle large vessels to help facilitate reef development
Fair enough, but that’s still a form of scrapping as opposed to outright immediate sinking of the vessel. Far too often vessles are sunk, mostly intact, and that is causing countless amounts of pollution in our waterways.
You are really bad at pirate
A Pirate can be eco-conscious without breaking Pirate ‘code’.
But you have heard of me.
Does hitting a Russian warship with it at full speed count as scrapping?
They use end of life ships for this shenanigans anyway. They are essentially already scrap.
This is normal for russian navy as even their flagships are in a state a civilized nation would consider “scrap”.
Moscow didn’t even know it was being sunk since its systems were in such disrepair.
Aim it at the port of St Petersburg and put it on full power. Let them deal with it
The captain is Georgian and the crew is Georgian and Indian according to the article, why saint Petersburg?
Because its literally Russian black fleet ship
In some civilized parts of the world, we’ve renounced death penalty some time ago and only the far-right wants it back.
“They go low, we go high!”
We are going to high-road the shit out of them.
If not wanting state sanctioned killings is your “high”, you might have other problems.
What is your “high”?
Not killing people, it seems.
And how do we deal with saboteurs and enablers of sanctions evasion?
Lock them up.
Pay them to sabotage the infrastructure of Russia and its allies. Plainly all this crew wants is money.
Oh, also, steal the oil.
Ah yes that’s it. Steal the oil, sell it, and use the proceeds to pay the crew to sabotage Russia and its allies.
The oil doesn’t even cover the damages so I’m not sure that’s the best way to use that money
What do you think the money should be spent on?
Repairing the cable. Sorry I thought it was implied
“Lohi” is Finnish for “salmon”. That’s right. Inspector Salmon is in charge of this investigation. Thankyou, Finland.
This Lovely Bones sequel is weird
Oh my gosh people Finland isn’t even real. They’re is no landmass. FIN-LAND. It’s all fish! They’re even rubbing our faces in it with these stupid names.
Shhh! Don’t give us away!
Steal some of the oil. Replace it at correct stoichiometric ratio with ammonium nitrate or some other powerful oxidiser. Attach a detonator and tracking device to the ship. Don’t tell the crew. Let the crew go free. When the ship reaches its destination, detonate. Halifax explosion, round two.
Fuck you, whoever would buy Russian oil.
I should maybe add that I don’t think this is actually a good idea. I can just see that it’s scientifically possible, and I enjoy constructing scenarios like this.
But to those who are riding Putin’s dick, just know that these are the things the West could do, but chooses not to. And the fuck you to all buyers of Russian oil still stands. I don’t care how poor they are.
“…these are the things the West could do, but chooses not to.” Yeah, the West does whatever TF it’s done in Afghanistan, Iraq, West Asia, whatever France has done in Africa. “fuck you to all buyers of Russian oil” You mean like the US and EU? What do u think happens to the Russian oil once it’s refined to actual useful oil?
The US and EU might buy a little, but most of it is being bought by China, India, and Africa at a steep discount. As I’m sure you know. Everybody buying Russian oil deserves scorn, even if they are living in the EU or the US.
Lol first of all thats not true, please post any source and try to group by EU, China, India and Africa.
And what about the other point? Does Russia also need western democracy? Is that before or after Greenland?
I don’t give a fuck how Russia is run as long as they stop trying to steal land.
Afghanistan and Iraq were terrible mistakes. And many (most?) NATO states had nothing to do with Iraq. Not that it matters right now. I’m talking about Russia’s imperialism right now.
Okay Bucha pillager.
Throughout the deeply stupid and shameful invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and this is true, the US never detonated a cargo ship sized bomb killing ten thousand people in a busy port city just because they bought sanctioned oil.
Spoiler: Russia did the same thing in .ost of those regions, too.
Hell, they just did a speed run of Afghanistan, before we did… hence the nickname “Graveyard of Empires”.
Oh yeah, it’s just fun to imagine murdering a bunch of civilians, who have absolutely no say in whose oil just sailed into their harbour. Disgusting.
Would you rather buy Saudi oil? American oil? Yeah, like that’s any better.
You realize that a lot of Russian oil gets “laundered” and then imported to the EU? So you would likely blow up an EU port, which is like a double Christmas and birthday gift to Putin.
It would probably blow up the port doing the laundering, which is unlikely to be happening in the EU.
But it would even more likely blow up an Indian or Chinese port.
It doesn’t matter. Like I said, I think this is a really bad idea. Mainly because it is collective punishment, and almost all of the thousands of victims would have had nothing to do with their corporations’ and their governments’ decision to buy that oil.
They also pump oil from ship to ship while at sea. It is said that this ship in particular also was involved in such maneuvers, which of course are highly dangerous and can easily result in oil spilled.
Last year I read that Italian oil refineries were refining Russian oil. Anything for a profit for some businesses.
They are russian flagged vessels right? What does that mean in terms of ability to do things about them?
I assume you can’t legally just board/sink them, even with cause?
No, this specific ship is registered in the Cook Islands.
As are many I believe? Like how most US companies incorporate in Delaware I think it’s for tax reasons.
Yes and no delaware are for giving as little as possible back and Panama is when they want to take money from people and not give any back
It’s not the same with boats just a home port thing
Edit: I thought that the gulf of Finland was narrower than it is, and this affects the relevance of my comment. See boredtortoise's reply below
Under UNCLOS at least, a country can board a ship within its territorial waters to investigate a crime "if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State" (and some other reasons). Sinking it is almost certainly illegal, but it's an unarmed ship and Finland has marines so I can't imagine that they'd have much trouble boarding it if they wanted to
Ty, I was expecting them to be russian flagged to ‘dare’ NATO to mess with them as an excuse to do… Something
The boat was caught on international waters without an anchor when the event happened. The Coast guard asked it kindly to move into Finnish waters where the police boarded the boat with the border guard giving a chopper ride.
No marine equivalents were actually needed which has the benefit of the apprehension not being a military action which could’ve easily been made escalatory in propaganda.
Ahh shit, I had just assumed that the gulf of Finland was narrow enough that it was all someone's territorial water, but it isn't. Thanks for the correction, I will edit a note into my comment
Regarding the marines thing, that was not because I thought Finland actually had used them, more an "if the crew actually did try to fight about it, Finland is quite capable of winning that fight"