from girlfreddy@lemmy.ca to world@lemmy.world on 03 Jan 2024 02:24
https://lemmy.ca/post/12540330
Rights advocates in the United States are urging President Joe Biden to end his administration’s “complicity” in Israeli rights abuses after key members of Israel’s government backed the idea of pushing Palestinians out of Gaza.
Far-right Israeli ministers Itamar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich said this week that Israel should “encourage emigration” from the coastal enclave, home to an estimated 2.3 million Palestinians.
“If there are 100,000 or 200,000 Arabs in Gaza and not two million Arabs, the entire discussion on the day after [the war ends] will be totally different,” Smotrich said on Sunday, calling for the “voluntary migration” of Palestinians.
A day later, Ben-Gvir, who oversees national security, made a similar appeal, saying it was “a correct, just, moral and humane solution”, Israeli media outlets reported.
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Are we sure we want him to act?
Might send more bombs.
I think what needs to happen is get Trump to say he’ll support Israel. Then
anti-TrumpBiden will have to say he doesn’t support Israel.Two days later it will be chalked up to the ramblings of a senile old man and Israel will get the latest in phosphorus technology.
Trump has already said many times his position. He tried to move things even further to supporting Israel. Biden isn’t the anti-Trump, but he’s what we’ve got. Hopefully he’ll do what’s right.
Spoiler: he won’t.
Almost like we need to stop hedging our bets on a single office.
What other office can do something about Israel?
Nobody. That’s the tragedy. As long as AIPAC throws lobbying dollars around and hardline US Jews and Christians refuse any stance except 100% support, America’s UNSC veto (or threat therein-of) ensures Israel has political cover.
Just like a long line of awful US ‘strategic allies’ like Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Pinochet, Saddam, etc…
The presidency was never meant to be as powerful as it has become.
I wonder what it would take for Biden to act. The actual bombing and killing isn’t enough. Are these statements by Israeli leadership what it will take? I don’t really understand what is behind Biden’s support at this point.
Probably? AIPAC money drying up.
Been wondering the same. Traditionally the US has supported Israel, no matter what. But fuck me. Biden has thrown all has cards on the table in support of genocide, and I still have to vote for him. What a clusterfuck.
Meanwhile, Ukraine is fighting our arch enemy and we’re bickering about whether to send them more arms. Here’s our chance to destroy Russia, once and for all, with not a soldier lost, not even a mildly damaged M4 rifle, and gather all the intelligence in the world on modern combat. Finally. And the GOP won’t do it. Reagan is spinning in his grave.
That when conspiracy theory come to place. When Biden spoke about victims of hamas attack next day, he was and still emphatic. Yet never spoke about the civilians or kids who died in Gaza. He doesn’t sees them.
There are a few options to his actions and looking at all of them they don’t make sense. He is not evangelical working towards the kingdom of Isreal to happen. He doesn’t need money. He doesn’t have relatives living there. Yet he been knowing to be a zainoist since he was a senator.
My conspiracy is that he is blackmailed by Isreal especially when he visited Isreal first time.
Here is a quote about his memory from a few weeks back.
over 50 years ago, as a young senator, I visited Israel for the first time, as a newly elected senator.
“And I had a long, long trip — or meeting with Golda Meir in her office just before the Yom Kippur War. And I guess she could see the consternation on my face as she described what was being faced — they were facing.”
To me it is very clear how compromised the us government by Zionist. Senator, presidents, and most of the rich and important companies which ultimately own the media. If it wasn’t for social media we wouldn’t know much about the suffering that children is going through nor their cries.
I don’t see how that quote supports your point at all
Biden talked to the Israeli PM 50 years ago about how Israel was facing multiple countries that wanted Israel destroyed, shortly before multiple countries attempted to destroy Israel
And this is proof that Zionists have corrupted the US Government?
Pudding, vitamin shots and pills from Dr Feelgood
For literal decades Biden has been telling Israel he’ll support them no matter what, but they need to worry about the optics of their actions…
He’s 100% ok with what’s happening, he just wishes they were quieter while doing it.
He’s not going to hold Israel accountable, because he knows the only other person Americans can vote for is trump.
So Biden sees no reason to stop supporting Israel, in a moderates mind it literally doesn’t matter because the Republicans would be even shittier. Which by some twisted logic means Biden can be just as bad and it’s not a negative.
It’s a great example of why “not a Republican” can’t be the bare minimum for the dem candidate.
‘dissolve your democracy’ or ‘support ethnic cleansing’
Not a great set of choices at the ballots for Americans this election.
I mean ... has America ever halted it's eugenics program?
Founded upon genocides by slaveholders.
I got 2 choices comes November. And nothing significant is going to change our voting system between now and then.
FUCK do these moralists propose I do?! After 01/06, I am more than a little wary.
“I don’t like what Biden is doing!”
“Well fuck me, I hate it. Still want a functioning democracy come January 2025?”
Because I’m not liking having an AR-15 leaning on my desk, and a 12-gauge on my nightstand, for when the local Brown Shirts decide I’m “vermin” and they need to raid my house “for my own good”. Anyone think that’s “radical” or “paranoid”? Got steep yourself in some WWII history lessons.
And BTW, the Brown Shirts will be local, on your street, if Trump wins. It won’t be, “Your machine gun gonna fight the military?!” No. All politics are local. Wait and see.
“Mr. Shalafi, look, we’re your neighbors, and we know you love you some guns! But times have changed. We just need to collect those up for your own protection. You can have them back once things calm down, pinky swear.”
Fuck me. I just got a buncha guns because I like shooting and gunsmithing old crappy stuff. Now that hobby is turning serious. And I fucking loathe that change.
I’m 53 soon, and I cannot begin to express how fucking angry I am to have typed those last sentences.
I know, I know, I was complacent, didn’t see it coming. But fuck me, I voted these past decades. And here we are.
I am a peaceful man, but I am not harmless. I’d suggest you gun-grabber libs think on that a moment. Because the other side already has thought on it.
The care bear Dems will hold hands and care the situation away.
Fighting for anything is only just starting to be considered. But it’s so very late, now.
Hope we never get to what you describe. We need the laws and LEO to do what’s right and keep things from sliding. Very hard to know that may not happen and I deeply wish Biden held himself to one term.
He has a considerable polling and enthusiasm gap now - and this isn’t the time for that to be true.
This is indeed both radical and paranoid.
Who is the more accelerationist candidate? The one who openly calls himself a dictator (‘on day one only, teehehehe’) or the status-quo octogenarian who continues the moral bankruptcy and refuses to stop lethal support or even public condemnation towards Israel even slightly? And I’m supposed to be thankful that Biden-Harris check the “not Trump lol” box and ignore the rest? Remember the hemming and hawing about Ukraine getting last gen/expiring tech? And we’re just GIVING Israel hardware from active US inventory???
I’d LOVE a viable third party or AVP/STV/etc voting, but electoral reform is a threat to DNC & RNC hegemony, so that never happening without a constitutional convention. So tell me, do you really have a choice at the ballot? Federal and primary races are littered with corporate and party money, there is no organic change coming from DC anymore.
You vote Republican to sink into the muck. You vote Democrat to stand there to let the tide take you. But you don’t have a choice other than to stall and hope that something changes.
Or here’s a novel idea: the candidate who doesn’t want to dissolve democracy could dramatically increase his chances of winning by NOT enabling genocide including ethnic cleansing and domicide.
I’d set the likelihood of THAT ever happening at zero a month or two ago, but now it seems he’s slowly realizing that enough people actually care more about human rights than empty platitudes and slavish devotion to what’s become an apartheid state that he has to change course.
I’d say there’s now a 10-20% chance he’s going to at least PRETEND to agree that Palestinian lives matter between now and November.
As a someone on the left, few things are as persuasive and soothing as wrung hands.
I’m gonna have to ask you to elaborate on what you mean by that.
Biden is likely to go out and wring his hands about the difficult situation for everyone involved in the conflict. He’ll show it is something he thinks about, then it will (likely) decrease the pressure on him.
Because he wrung his hands on a stage and/or into a microphone.
My theory is that people think that counts as being heard.
Edit: my apologies if my earlier brevity sounded like a dismissal of your point. I was attempting to agree and, well… didn’t provide enough context.
Thank you for the question.
Yeah, you’re probably spot on 😮💨
I don’t know why he bothers, i have never had a choice in an election in the first place. I can’t imagine someone being on the fence at this point unless they are cloaking for an argument.
Let me help, it’s more nuanced than that
It’s “dissolve our democracy and support ethnic cleansing at home and abroad” or “support ethnic cleansing abroad only”
Thomas Jefferson was right
Biden works for the war machine
The reason he’s starting to pretend to listen is that he’s losing in the polls.
Turns out that the electorate has a ridiculously short memory.
Turns out that the “I’m not the other guy” tactic is much less effective for an incumbent than a challenger.
Most shockingly, it turns out that continuing to ignore the rightful moral outrage of as many as half of your potential voters, maybe even more, is an extremely bad idea even if your opponent is objectively many times worse than you.
So yeah, as much as he hates it, he’s gonna have to do something different, or at least pretend to, and he knows it.
He’s been polling bad this whole time…
And just illegally went around Congress to “sell” weapons to Israel in exchange for a small slice of the billions we’ve given them this year.
I wish what you were saying was true, because its optimistic
But it’s just not what’s actually happening…
It’s gone from bad to worse in the last couple of months, though.
I’d say that giving it a 10-20% likelihood of happening in spite of him almost certainly being forced to do it or lose is rather pessimistic tbh…
I’m not saying it’s happening. I’m saying that the likelihood of it happening in the future has increased from nonexistent to very small, theoretically.
Factually incorrect…
www.270towin.com/…/national
They’ve been 2-3% away from each other all year.
Even before this Israel shit, Biden doesn’t have a good chance.
That doesn’t mean I agree with anything else you’re saying, I’m just not going to provide a source that disproves every single thing you just said, because it’s not a good use of time so I’m trying to focus on just one thing.
The election year just started, and these numbers are going to change dramatically
Strong disagree on this language.
jcpa.org/new-u-s-poll-raises-questions-about-amer…
Anyone in the 10% that thinks hostages or sexual assault is a lie, or that Jews overplay the fucking Holocaust, are not “rightful” and their concerns do not come from empathy, because they lack empathy as a concept.
Is it right to be morally outraged by an ongoing genocide, ethnic cleansing and domicide? Yes or no?
The indisputable facts that Hamas has committed heinous terrorism and that the holocaust happened and was unimaginably awful doesn’t excuse the crimes against humanity committed by the Israeli government, so please pack your fucking whataboutism away.
It’s not whataboutism to demonstrate that an election-significant number of Democrats believe Hamas bullshit over reality, and that the number of people who believe that is enough to change Dem support from strong majority agreement with the President to disagreement.
It’s also not whataboutism to point out that nearly a third of people polled have generally no opinion on such basic things as “did the Holocaust happen” or “was the Hamas terror attack a big deal” or “does Hamas target civilians.”
War does indeed suck and you’re allowed to not like it and even use your irresponsibly inflammatory language, but it’s absurd to suggest these comments are whataboutism.
Even if the pro-IDF propaganda piece you linked to had successfully demonstrated that, yes it would still be a whataboutism.
What Americans believe has no bearing on whether the Israeli government should be allowed to systematically slaughter and demolish their way through Palestinians, including children, at a rate completely unheard of anywhere in the world in recent years.
Yes it is. That is by definition whataboutism. Maybe you need to look up what whataboutism is. While you’re at it, look up “bad faith arguments” and several logical fallacies.
And war crimes perpetrated against a mostly defenseless civilization population of over 50% children are much worse.
Gee, thanks! So generous of you!
Fixed that for you
Again, just Google it. You can also use a better search engine, but PLEASE look up the word you keep pretending you know the meaning of.
You do understand that you are literally expressing a thing that some Americans believe, yes? Like, you get that your position is an opinion, right?
Yes, it is indeed an opinion that committing atrocities is a bad thing to do. Well done on finally getting something right.
It’s a VERY popular opinion though, one shared by so many people that the world has decided that people are not allowed to do that bad thing.
That the Israeli Apartheid regime is committing genocide, ethnic cleansing and domicide isn’t an opinion, though. It’s an objective fact by all definitions of all the words.
A fact not changed by whether or not some misguided Americans think or pretend to think that the atrocities of Hamas are justified or that the holocaust didn’t happen.
You’re not dumb. You know that people disagree with you on the atrocities you claim.
For instance, it’s impossible to have an apartheid system against another country. Israel is, by definition, not an apartheid state.
It’s hilarious to me that you’ll try to bring up the definitions of words after that - perhaps this is why your opinion is so extreme.
Wow, you’ve already doubled the number of things you’ve been right about! At this rate we’ll only have to keep arguing a couple months more until you stop being an insincere moron!
I know that some people deny objective reality, yes, but that doesn’t make objective reality any less real or any more subjective.
Palestinians, Muslims and Arabs living in Israel and Israel-occupied and/or -controlled Palestine are treated as, at best, second class citizens. Desmond Tutu agreed that Israel is an Apartheid state and he of all people should know.
I guess the truth sometimes looks like hilarious comedy to those who believe in ridiculous gaslighting such as that coming from Times of Israel, AIPAC and Faux News 🤷
Yeah, it’s SO extreme to think that the lives of Palestinians matter! Such an audacious notion! 🙄
You went to all the effort to cite Tutu and yet provide no evidence for this, because they’re not, and they literally have representation in Israel’s government.
Yeah, because everyone knows that having 1/12 of the knesset be Arabs means that there’s not systemic inequality and oppression of Arabs and other minority groups! 🤦
here’s some evidence you’re gonna ignore or pretend to refute.
It’s proportionate to their population.
This article is about the Palestinian territory, a different country than Israel.
Lol they literally acknowledge it.
No. As pointed out in the article you just pretended to have read, the Jewish and Palestine populations of the territories controlled by Israel are roughly equal.
“between the Mediterranean Sea and Jordan River, an area encompassing Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT)”.
It’s right in the opening sentence of the fucking summary the report starts with ffs! 🤦
Gaza is not in Israel lol. It’s an occupied territory, not part of their country. Hamas runs Gaza as the official government.
Gaza is de facto controlled by Israel and as such is their responsibility.
Even if Hamas wasn’t a terrorist organization first, a political advocacy group second and a government as a WAY distant third, they still wouldn’t be able to properly take care of the people of Gaza, given the inhumane conditions created and enforced by Israel.
Both of these statements are false. Not “I disagree.” They are false and they would offend the fuck out of Gazans.
They control the food supply, the water supply, the power supply, the fuel supply, the medicine supply and the international aid supply.
That means that they’re in control and it’s in no way offensive towards Gazans to acknowledge that.
Hamas didn’t build any infrastructure with Iran’s money. They built bombs. Israel voluntarily provided power to Gaza, but is under no compulsion to provide power to an enemy they’re actively at war with.
Where would they have gotten water for the cement or fuel for the machines? Money’s not very useful when someone else is actively preventing you from using them on the things you need.
As does Israel with the tens of billions of dollars the US sends every year. Israel spends more than the entire GDP of Palestine on murdering Palestinians every year.
It’s a quasi-occupied territory that they have made sure can’t get power in any other way. For Israel not to provide power to Gaza is Israel preventing Gaza from having power at.
And they’re actively at war with Hamas, not the entire population. The vast majority of which has never harmed a single Israeli citizen and over 50% of which is CHILDREN.
Turns out the restrictions only applied because Hamas wants genocide. Money can, in fact, be exchanged for goods and services, and was for years prior to Hamas.
They are at war with the government of Gaza, correct.
So 6.8 million people have to suffer and die for it? You call that justice? Also, Hamas may want genocide, but they don’t have the power to carry it out. Israel’s government HAS the power and IS committing genocide.
The majority of Gazans weren’t alive the last time Hamas allowed a vote, let alone old enough to vote.
Hamas is not a legitimate government and their atrocities are neither the fault nor the responsibility of the civilian population.
They are the government, and they have been consistently attacking Israel for 16 years, culminating in “Israel’s 9/11”
Imagine Israel without the Iron Dome you don’t want to give them money for.
Suffering happens in war. That’s why war is bad. 6.8 million people won’t die though. There will be 6.77 million Palestinians in Gaza after this war, ideally closer to a 2 state solution than if Hamas was still around.
You know what? Fuck it.
Keep using an imagined genocide to excuse an actual genocide.
Keep simping for a fascist government.
Keep defending an apartheid ethnostate system.
Keep excusing war crimes.
Keep victim blaming.
It’s not like your awful perspective actually matters to anyone who matters anyway, thank fuck.
Have the day you deserve, genocide cheerleader.
I’ve had a pretty fucking amazing couple weeks and that seems unlikely to change.
Then stop doing that and start having the days you deserve.
Stay angry about it forever lol
What other country has their roads, electricity, water, trade, and police controlled by another?
Like there are words, and then there are facts on the ground. It walks and quacks like an apartheid.
What other country is blockaded by all of their neighbors (including Egypt and Lebanon, and even Jordan which is just nearby) for 30-60 years of terrorism?
If words don’t have any meaning to you, then your argument admittedly makes more sense. When you say “apartheid” you just mean “shit I don’t like.” It’s basically the “neoliberal” of Israel lol
Again, while I don’t necessarily otherwise disagree with you, you are a little confused on whataboutism.
Nope, I’m not. Those comments mention things that have absolutely no bearing on the topic at hand but the one bringing them up tries to derail the discussion by insisting that they’re not only relevant but in fact crucial to the matter at hand.
That’s textbook whataboutism.
That’s not whataboutism. Whataboutism is changing the subject to derail the conversation. This is simply addressing a different point of view in the same discussion.
No. Mentioning the opinions of uninvolved people IS changing the subject of whether or not genocide is bad and should be stopped.
A comparable if much lower stakes example would be if we were discussing whether or not it’s ok to say that Wings were better than The Beatles and then some rando chimes in to inform us that 10% of techno fans think that the world doesn’t need guitars.
Fun had, let’s return to the actual: 10% of the respondents of a poll saying ANYTHING doesn’t make genocide more or less acceptable and bringing it up in spite of that is a whataboutism, a distraction and a very crass way to try to derail the conversation.
No. The best information is that they’ve been putting a ton of pressure on Netanyahu to back the fuck off, but it hasn’t done any good because he’s a legitimate asshole and always has been. (Remember, this is the same guy who deliberately embarrassed Obama by accepting a GOP invitation to address Congress without consulting the White House or making an official state visit to the president. He’s the scum of the earth and always has been. There’s zero question that he’s hoping for a Trump win.)
They don’t want to go public with demanding restraint or a cease fire because they are afraid it will widen the war by encouraging Iran and its other proxies such as the Houthis and Hezbollah which could further hinder freight traffic through the Red Sea, thus bumping global inflation back up and giving Trump a campaign gift. I think at this point it’s a lost cause and they need to cut their losses and tell Israel to knock it the fuck off, but I expect they will continue to drag their feet and work on back channels.
We also know that every time Iran has been met with real force rather than empty threats, they have backed off. Ultimately it would still be a big gamble to openly threaten them, but it’s something to think about, especially if you don’t fancy another Trump presidency/dictatorship.
Most of what we see on Lemmy is pure amateur hour speculation that has only a very tangential relationship with what’s actually happening.
I agree with this but also I’m not sure if this isn’t already a proxy war with iran-russia, and it also seems to benefit china too.
And even if netanyahu wasn’t an arse, he’s totally reliant on some awful people to stay in power, and out of prison, for however long he can manage both.
Pushing back publically against his actions now is equivalent to demanding regime change in Israel and while I think it would be a good thing I can see why geopolitically it’s difficult for the US to do.
Lol what pressure? Him and Blinken only barely proclaimed talking about reducing civilian casualties. Meanwhile, several of Biden’s officials have resigned in protest of his policy.
Sending weapons immediately and bypassing congress twice is anything but pressure.
Why would it? Houthis would easily stop if the USA negotiates a ceasefire, especially after they removed their terrorist label. Iran has no reason to get directly involved because they don’t want to directly face the US or Israel. Everyone else surrounding Israel doesn’t care because they’re all shill nations anyway. About the only unsatisfied party might be Hamas, but they entered this thing knowing it would be their final stand, so it would technically be an improvement from guaranteed death.
Israel is a strategic defense partner and basically a military outpost for the US. The fact that the USA is complacent in letting Israel do whatever is not surprising whatsoever because they’ve already pulled this exact scenario like hundreds of times before. The only difference is the scale and the optics. Biden only cares slightly more because it’s election season, so he can’t just blindly deny everything and expect people to believe him.
New fears? New to him? Not New to anyone paying attention.
well it is a much more direct approach than usual…
I don’t understand where the people taking these statements seriously (either to support them or to oppose them) imagine that the Palestinians could possibly go from Gaza. Egypt won’t take them. That means they’re not going anywhere.
Anywhere else… I think the point is to say that they should’ve figured it out. They had warning and opportunity to leave, even when they didn’t. The Nazis played the same strategy.
The people downvoting you need a history lesson. Hitler used the same rhetoric to justify the Holocaust.
Honestly, no one takes either of those racist idiots seriously. They’re not serious people and this isn’t a serious plan. They’re both despised in Israel and, thankfully, neither really have any influence.
So the minister of finance and minister of national security aren’t influential in any ways in a country that gets billions of dollars from the USA and uses it to fund their national war effort?
Are you waiting for other people in their govt to say something about flattening Gaza? Some minor politicians have said that
The agriculture minister said this would be a second Nakba, that event where the Israelis took homes and made prisoners go through their own abandoned(stolen) homes taking books, furniture, and their whole cultural history for the Israeli to take as spoils of war.
Exactly this. Either Netanyahu controls the Likud-coalition and this is the aligned message of displacement/ethnic cleansing, or he dismisses these ministers and publicly refutes these statements, or he doesn’t have control and should immediately hold elections to secure a real coalition or majority. But that risks jail for Netanyahu, and his actions so far have openly spoken of cowardice in the face of the legal repercussions.
Because otherwise this kind of rhetoric is going straight into the ICJ evidence file for SA’s genocide complaint that Israel is contesting. Protestations of ‘blood libel’ don’t drown out cabinet ministers openly calling for ethnic cleansing going unpunished.
As odd as it may seem: yes, they aren’t influential in directing the war. They have those positions because Netanyahu promised them for supporting his coalition, not because they were “earned” or because they’re ideologically aligned. It’s a marriage of convenience and outside of Netanyahu’s deal to desperately cling to power, these two are far-right kooks from fringe parties. It doesn’t give them real legitimacy. Netayahu’s coalition deal was an enormous controversy even outside of Israel. A big reason they formed the emergency government was to keep extremely unserious clowns like these away from decision-making by bringing in grown-ups. They are both strongly disliked and would be crushed back into obscurity in an election.
This article presents their statements as something new and they aren’t. Both of these fucking morons routinely suggest horrific shit like expelling Arabs from Israel. Ben-Gvir was convicted in Israel of racist incitement against Arabs decades ago. A former head of Shin Bet once referred to Smotrich as a “Jewish terrorist.” They are both settler extremists and known quantites; it would be stranger if they weren’t spouting racist, extremist bullshit. They are not representative of the broader government. Netanyahu didn’t have to agree to a cabinet made up of his political enemies; even that far-right ghoul knows these people are clowns. Given all that, I don’t think there’s a compelling reason to believe that they’d be the ones to announce Israeli policy.
I’m waiting for someone who actually matters. These dipshits do not. I mean, really, none of the people currently in power are going to be around after this conflict anyway, so I’m more concerned with what Gantz is saying than with Netanyahu’s petulant tantrums.
Now apply the same standard to the enemies of Israel. Part of the dehumanization that goes on with Israeli apartheid and occupation is that while Israeli politics is accepted as complicated and nuanced, with analysis like the one you offer here, the politics of the other side(s) is always considered morally unambiguous. Hamas: a terrorist monolith. Fatah: supports a terrorist fund. Hezbollah: Iranian stooges.
If we apply the same absolutist moral standard to Israel, the nuance you present simply doesn’t matter: if kahanist extremists are in government, the entire state is compromised, and Israel needs to be militarily defeated so that peace can exist.
If we allow for nuance also for Israel’s enemies then a whole bunch of racist assumptions go away. The conflict is no longer a fight between the only democracy in the ME and the forces of Sauron. It’s a political land dispute that is resolvable. But you have to talk to the political forces you’ve labelled terrorists, accept that they have valid and legitimate aspirations and concerns (just like the Israelis do) and negotiate in good faith.
Yes! I completely agree with you. I’m not totally sure if you’re saying that ‘people should’ apply that same standard or that I’m not applying it. I’m only talking about the people in this article, not suggesting that complexity or nuance only exist in Israeli politics. I think you need to take on a ton of nuance to even understand Hezbollah’s behaviour at the Israeli border, let alone understand them as an organization.
Yes, we are in complete agreement that the same standard of nuance should be applied!
One of them is in charge of the police and border patrol. I don’t think it much matters if the average person doesn’t like them.
Neither of those things give him the power to do what he said or the influence to have it done. Both of those things matter.
Dude they’re doing it in the West Bank right now.
They’re doing what in the West Bank?
They’re not expelling people from the West Bank for the same reason as OP said: there’s nowhere for anyone to go. The settlers, including the two absolute pieces of shit in the article, are responsible for horrific crimes in the West Bank but it’s not the same thing as Gaza and it’s not the same thing they’re talking about.
They’re emptying whole villages with death threats. Care to guess how the villagers know the threats are credible enough that they need to leave?
I’m sure the conversation you want to be having is happening somewhere. You should find someone who’s defending what’s happening in the West Bank and say this to them.
It’s a serious expression of the government’s values. Just because those particular officials lack the power to do what they propose doesn’t mean their words are meaningless. If Bibi and his crew weren’t in favor of genocide, they’d be loudly condemning these assholes and doing whatever they can to remove them from office.
It’s not. I already wrote a very long post about why you’re wrong in this case, why those people are in those positions, and why there’s less reason to be afraid of those statements (though good reason to be outraged) than this article suggests.
They’ll eventually just push them into Egypt. It doesn’t matter that Egypt doesn’t want them. It matters more that Egypt probably won’t start shooting over it. And if they do they’ll be labelled anti-semites anyway and Israel will take the Sinai or something.
Israel can’t take the Sinai. There’s a peacekeeping force there specifically to prevent such a thing…
And yeah. Yeah they’re just going to lean on MFO Sinai to oversee refugee camps aren’t they.
I’d say the Israelis couldn’t attack American troops and maintain their support but uhhh they already managed that some decades ago.
I don’t think the point of genocide is for them to leave.
Nobody would take the Jews in the 1930’s either. This is part of the playbook.
The only pressure Biden feels is how to feign any concern about anything Israel is doing.
Bullshit. Leaving aside any potential humanitarian concerns, this whole thing is a massive headache for the Biden Administration.
Yeah but the real president is happy
Nobody is asking Hamas how many Palestinians they are willing to sacrifice in their wish to erase Israel from the map.
Probably because they're more concerned about how Gaza isn't allowed to have an economy right now.
They’re not even allowed hospitals.
Nah, they’re okay with that because they know it means more money in the pockets of their leaders in Qatar. Hamas never cared about the Palestinian people and they still don’t.
Sorry, but last time I checked Israel is killing those civilians in throves. And don’t get me wrong I don’t sympathize with Hamas, but saying that the civilian Palestinian casualties are their fault is very much twisting the truth.
Are you also going to blame the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding there also Hamas fault? Are Hamas bombing civilian buildings in densely populated areas with oversized bombs?
Perhaps we should blame Hamas for the global warming too with your logic.
What did Hamas expect the response would be? Let me answer the rhetorical question: Mass civilian casualties. Why? Because they are embedded in the population. “Bombing civilian buildings” means little. Where are the military buildings they should bomb instead? Why is Hamas still holding hostages?
If you think that Israel should have the right to exist, what do you think their response should have been to the Oct 7th? Hamas has said they are proud of their terrorism, will commit more Oct 7ths, and want to wipe Israel from the map. Should Isreal just kick back and wait for Hamas to terror attack again? Would you expect that of any country in the world? So then, what response?
It’s a shame that people are dying. It is always the same when there is war, civilians suffer. Even dumber when the root of the conflict is over fucking fiction. Even dumber than that, if you can believe it, are people actually thinking there is a pure good or bad to any conflict. A pox on both their houses.
I’m confused. Isn’t Israel the one dropping the bombs?
Hamas is still lobbing missiles at Israel daily, and don’t forget, holding quite a few hostages. Like I said, I wonder how many Palestinians Hamas is willing to sacrafice.
You totally avoided my question. Who is bombing Gaza? Because I’m pretty fucking sure it isn’t Hamas
Ah, I see. Someone incapable of nuance. I’ll just block and move on. It’s like arguing with a kitchen table.
My man is so nuanced he can blame Hamas for the actions of Israel and can see how up is actually just the same as down if you’re all smart and nuanced about it
Calm down, everyone! Biden is already acting. He’s sending weapons to Israel as fast as he can.
But this is fine because Trump would send them even faster and make the children even more dead. All hail the glorious two party system.
The Abraham Accords is often cited as an escalation towards the situation we are now in that it tried to politically isolate Hamas: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Accords
Maybe the orange man wouldn’t make a difference on the arms front, but he is really good at planting seeds for conflict.
Biden has the policy of expanding the shameful Abraham Accords
This is honestly what defeating an insurrection should feel like. Comparing obvious differences in administration and policy. Yep, i only see escalation and incitement on the alternative side of the coin. ““Set up nukes outside of Iran?”” yeah we dodged a huge bullet.
Source? Last I heard, trump got us OUT of a war that Biden oversaw the continuance of for 8 years. How is trump somehow a warmonger now? Is there a potential grift available for him to do or something?
This is just something “Vote blue no matter who” types imply when they talk about this. I wasn’t actually making this point as such.
Lol how did that go?
For this issue, there’s the stuff he did during his term as mentioned above, and as usual quoting him is enough:
So you’re right. Since a lot of people are dying he thinks we should “let it play out,” and also incidentally said he wouldn’t allow Gazan refugees in the US and previously released a “peace plan” that matched Netanyahu’s.
So my source is the continued, ill-considered and idiotic behaviour of this egotistical man child and the words that spew from his mouth on a daily basis. The fact that this is the best the republicans can do is truly embarrassing
I too would also like to mention the man paints his face orange and like… you all just ok with that. Wtf people?
I don’t have to fuck him, why should I care?
Bitch if your coworker started showing up with orange face paint everyday you would talk so much shit. Don’t lie.
We do talk shit. Have you seen a late show in the last 8 years? But it’s pretty irrelevant to being president, so it’d be dumb to focus 9n that rather than the 30k other things.
You asked me why should you care. Thats why you should care because I am not going to stop talking shit about the racist fascist orange shit stain. He deserves no such dignity.
I have no illusions as to him being a good president. But the Israel issue is significant enough that he’s worth it. And literally just saying he would stop interfering in it makes him a MAJOR upgrade over the current genocider-in-chief.
Stop interfering = let the genocide continue. So no I wouldn’t call it a major upgrade even on this issue. It’s going from being the guy cheering for the bully to one silently standing by as he stomps on a defenceless victim’s head.
And for every other issue Trump is anywhere from embarrassingly stupid to outright scary. Much worse than Biden.
The problem is the two party system, because both of these options are ultimately fucking dog shit.
I am perfectly fine with my country doing nothing more than providing military support only as requested by the rest of the UN, and otherwise doing nothing. Ideally that would be America’s role in every armed conflict. The reason they’re even able to do a genocide is having American backup and weapons. End that and the genocide is over. Iran could flatten Israel in a day if Israel didn’t have the threat of the US military behind them.
There is no other issue. America is helping to commit a genocide. Tax rates, or hell even attempted coups, mean nothing in comparison.
Yeah fair enough. I feel like they could still do a lot of damage if the US ended support, but I totally get your perspective and kind of agree actually.
America sliding into fascism is not quite worth it for me though, especially because I don’t trust Trump to remain consistent on this issue either. Biden needs to be forcefully pushed to change tack, I guess by the poll numbers and internal protests
There is nothing we can do to make Biden stop supporting genocide other than vote him out. Yeah trump might also do it, but he didn’t the first time. And certainly the guy who might is better than the guy who definitely will.
The Doha accords were a gift to the Taliban, they knew the US wanted out, Trump said we wanted out, and he set the stage for an untenable self-governance in Afghanistan
Biden deserves plenty of blame for how the inevitable went down and not ensuring interpreters/collaborators were evacuated , but Trump absolutely set up the fall of Afghanistan. The Afghan papers made clear the ANA were not a viable force, but Biden should have had contingencies ready
Blue hats vs red hats, no blades
Were you asleep from 2015 to 2020? He’d definitely be at least as bad on this issue, and vastly worse on every other one.
Yeah I know. Perhaps you missed my point
He did say, loud and proud, that he’s zionist…
Sauce for the lazy: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jov9jxRecFc
well color me the shade of anal bleach
Nothing out of the ordinary here. Just the head police officer of Israel suggesting actual ethnic cleansing in a reasonable tone.
Nope definitely not an evil government.
Why is Biden under pressure? According to the guys on /politics this genocide is no problem and Biden is not responsible and we should all keep voting for him. Democrats are completely fine with doing straight up Genocide without even hiding it as long it’s not a Republican doing it.
Those people glow in the dark
Mr Warmonger don’t give a damn
I wonder what it’s like living in a functioning democracy.
It ain’t exactly bliss but it ain’t this either
Given what transpires about the US on the international news scene, I’m not sure putting that to a democratic vote would yield the result you expect, sadly.
In this case I don’t think it would hurt to have a popular vote decide (the next president)
JOE BOMBOMBOMBOMBOMBOMBOMBOMBOMB BIDEN
While it’s nice to hear that Biden is ‘under pressure’ about this, I wish it took something less than obvious genocide and a near-global consensus that these are crimes against humanity for any sort of media to register it.
I honestly don’t understand why Biden is so hawkish on this; it’s not like giving Israel carte blanche will get him support from Republicans, and doing it really does appear to divide the left enough to hurt him politically.
Biden is hawkish on Israel because he remembers a version of Israel that doesn’t exist anymore. The stalwart of the Middle East is a shell of itself and it doesn’t want the rest of the world finding out. I know his age is a meme at this point but it’s worth pointing out here
It also explains why he treats the GOP the way he does, he’s remembering a much older Senate.
To be fair, he has had a surprising amount of success dealing with the GOP over the last few years.