from geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml to world@lemmy.world on 26 Dec 2025 16:49
https://lemmy.ml/post/40840594
Hamas has called on Israel to allow an impartial international investigation into its attack on 7 October 2023 and has rejected that it killed civilians or committed atrocities.
“The resistance did not target any hospital, school, or house of worship; it did not kill a single journalist or any member of ambulance crews. We challenge [Israel] to prove otherwise,” it said.
In the new document, Hamas said that “Western media and Zionist lobby groups” had launched a disinformation campaign about the events of the attack.
“The Israeli entity promoted a series of lies and fallacies about killing children and raping women, paving the way to proceed with an all-out genocide project that was pre-planned and aimed to erase Gaza from existence,” it said.
#world
threaded - newest
It’s ironic that I find Hamas more believable than Israel. many people no longer trust the Israeli government
Which of the known genocidal liars do you believe? A) Israel B) Hamas C) none of the above
Hamas aren’t genocidal.
Armed Opposition to colonialism is enshrined in international law.
If they were not intentionally targeting civilians in their military operations, you would be correct. Same as Israel, they say they dont do it, but they do.
That‘s called terror then, not being genocidal. Wanting to erase a whole people, by bombing all infrastructure, housing, hospitals, killing journalists and paramedics, sniping little children, poisening, blocking aid, blocking access to water, to food, erasing the culture of a people and stealing it to make it your own, systemically imprison, rape and torture people based on their ethnicity and boasting about it, clarifying its intend in social media, the press, the parliament — now that is genocidal and has been very clear since the end of 2023. Get fucked with your both sides apologia, creep.
But Hamas wants to wipe out the Israeli people, so by your own definition, that genocide. They’re not currently capable, which makes one wonder what their objective was in the October attacks. It seems that they did it to goad Israel into tracking them and the using social media of the carnage to gain support internationally. That explains why they prepped protests across the globe (that started before Israel attacked). Unfortunately Israel went off the deep end and used it as an excuse to go way over the top, killing and abusing so many civilians. There are no good guys.
Hamas is being used as a stand-in for the Palestinian people, an excuse for violence against a people that is being suppressed and killed since the inception of Israel. The only users claiming Hamas to be „the good guys“ are usually Hasbara bros (you) trying to equate the oppressor with the oppressed. If settlers stole my land and killed all the people I’ve ever known and had done so for a century, you bet I’d want them gone — the Palestinians have a right to defend themselves. What I would not support is stealing other peoples land and killing them for their audacity to exist on said land — but that‘s what you are defending, tho.
I‘ve got nothing else to say to you, as you‘ve either been ingesting too much israeli propaganda, are an islamophopic racist or are straight up a Zionist yourself. There is no good faith in sight, with the kind of talking points you vomit out. That really makes one wonder.
Initially yes, but no longer.
In their first charter in August 1988 Hamas stated that “Israel” should be “eliminated” through a “clash with the enemies”, but since the 2006 Palestinian Prisoners’ Document and the 2007 Mecca agreement, Hamas agreed to a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, which is an implicit recognition of Israel.
They still shout it today and still shout ‘from the river to the sea’ which is a a desire for genocide.
Nah. Outdated territorial ambitious are only used today to nullify any/all Palestinian opposition to Israel.
Why there was no international support for Palestine before 7 of october?
The fact that both side’s propoganda is extremely agressive against the both sides argument, is part of why this is a forever conflict. They all want to lay 100% of the blame on the other party.
If Palistinians and Israelis are not willing to acknowlege they both have to sacrifice their absolutism and fanatisism, this conflict will not end.
Every other conflict of this type only stopped when BOTH parties wanted it to end and made those sacrifices.
Whattup Zionist, what is this, both-side-ception? Both side’s propaganda? BAHAHJAhwhhahahHAHAHAhahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAhahhaaaaaa. No seriously, stop wasting everyone’s time with that hasbara shit. You are argueing in favor of genocide, settler colonialism and apartheid. The fact that you actually use your life doing this kind of shit online is appalling and disgusting. You really should be ashamed. Now to the meat of your yapping.
Who’s doing propaganda for the Palestinians? The big and ubiqious Palestinian lobby groups? The paid internet users and bots doing the anti-semitism by criticising Israel? Boy, you’re paddling desinformation, borderline conspiracy theories, again, in favour of a genocidal settler colonial project.
Why does the actual victim, the genocided and suppressed people have to “acknowledge they have to sacrifice their absolutism and fanatisism”? Why is this a demand at all, as it’s clearly in favour of the rapist getting their raping tolerated by society? Why isn’t the only demand: The barbaric occupier has to stop genociding and suppressing the occupied and genocided people!? Your perspective is sickening.
The only party not wanting this “conflict” to stop is Israel, because there are still Palestinians in Palestine. Israel is the party that time and again does everything and anything to keep on killing and stealing and raping and celebrating it publically, like, you know, right this fucking moment.
Your venomous inhumanity makes me sick.
See, your highly emotional reaction is exactly what propaganda is supposed to evoke.
Let me just come out and say what I have been saying all the time in a language that you understand. Fuck Israel’s government, the zionist imperialists and their paranormal death cult. They are nearly as bad today as theNazi fasism they used to suffer from.
Now that you can no longer argue that I am not a mostly neutral observer (everyone has some bias after all)
Let me show you how a mostly moral victim acts. Look at Ukraine. They are outclassed by Russia. Russia abducts their children, bombs their cities and risks nuclear disaster by fighting around nuclear power plants. This oppression as been frequent and the soviets killed them by the millions for generations now.
Are they mindlessly bombing Russian Cities in retaliation even though they absolutely could, no Are they kidnapping Russian civilians, no Are they beheadding Russian pow’s, no Do they incoctornate their children to say their way of life and religion is superior to all others and it is their duty to forcably convert the rest of the world? No
That is why Ukraine has real firends in the internation community and not just friends of convenience.
Let me give you another example. When the ANC relialised thst violence was not going to get them freedom from the Apartheid government, they actively suppressed their own armed struggle to work with those on the other side opposing their oppression.
It was hard for them, it did not seem fair to many at the time, it was very close run at some points eith it nearly breaking down. but they did it for the sake of their future generations, because they valued their children and grandchildren lives more than their own souls.
Ukraine still rely on other countries ressources which makes them limited in retaliation. As opposed to palestine where they was occupied for 57 goddamn years wirh the whole world being fine with it. Resistances groups in many other occupied territory in the past did commit act of terrorism. Without those resistance groups not a single country would have been liberated.
You can scream fuck israel all you want if you don’t support ressistance you support the oppressor
That sort of reductist thinking is why the region will not have peace.
Your thinking is the reductist one who think if Hamas disappear today, Palestine would be liberated which ignore all the previous example of occupations and settler colonialism and the justifiable and not justifiable retaliation from the occupied . What will happen with Palestine with your shitty view will be a future worse than the natives and first nation in the USA and Canada
You midunderstand, I advocate for the removal of the hamas AND zionist ideology. Both are pre-requisites for peace.
So naive to the point of stupidity. Keep saying zionist ideology should die till Palestine is wiped out of the map. Internationa law say thr occupier should end occupation unconditionally
Naive is thinking that if they do, the problem will be solved.
I agree that they should be forced to withdraw without precondition. I also add that both parties should submit to a peacekeeping force that will reabilitate and reform both societies for integration. Also without precondition.
You need to address the causes of the conflict on both sides, otherwise one of the two parties will just continue to reignite the conflict as they have been doing since the 1940s.
What a bunch of bullshit . The cause of the conflict was Zionists coming from Europe forcing a state on the land by ethnically cleansing Palestinians then started building settlements making a Palestinian state impossible . The proof that the problem was always Zionists only is that in the 1881 a bunch of Yemini jews came to Palestine and was welcomed by the local population and integrated . Things got bad only when it became clear that the Zionists came to the land to take it all.
The reality is that Israel is the major power. Israel could end occupation right now and if hamas keep attacking they can reoccupy in a day. While Palestine could be liberated today and would take at least a century if ever for Hamas to be able to destroy Israel
We saw how your peacekeeping bullshit doesn’t work in Lebanon. We saw how the lack of armed resistance in Syria led to Israel annexing the Golan height and declare sovereignty on it and now after the fall of the butcher Assad Israel occupied more land.
I will tell you exactly how thing should work. Of course it will be hard to do but it’s logical. The west should stop supporting Israel since it is the occupier then ask Israel to dismantle all the settlements and to end the blockade on Gaza. The PA will be the official temporary government that will get full support from the world from money to weapons. If Hamas refuse to drop arms then the PA will be in charge to dismantle Hamas. Since the blockade in Gaza would end , Hamas will lose most it support.
I dont disagree with the steps you highlight and that Israel certainly controls the immediate future. I just think that those steps dont go far enough.
Nor did the peacekeeping efforts by the UN in recent times. This is largely the failing of the US undermining the international community. What should have been happening since 2023 at least is an increasing sanction pressure followed by military intervention to protect civilians. But so long as the superpower have the veto, its prone to being corrupted by small interest groups, like the zionists. They only need to convice or compel a few dozen people to shield Israeli leadership from consequences.
People need to learn from the Lessons of the post war WW1 restitution vs the post war WW2 reabilitation. Without reabilitating both sides, the conflict wont end.
What people dont always remember was that post WW2, not just Germany got socially reabilitated, but also the countries they occupied. without that the seeds for the next conflict would be sown in the hearts of the occupied.
The reabilitation happen after the occupier surrender.
Good thing you ignored all the arguments I made by dismissing my comment as an emotional reaction. You declaring yourself as a mostly neutral observer does not remedy your previous pseudo-neutral, but actually in favour of the aggressor language. I’m also not interested in low quality comparisons with other conflicts you have heavily biased perspectives on. You’ve shown the quality of your takes, thanks.
Your example in regards to the ANC is deceptive, as the situation in Palestine is not the same and will result in annihilation of the Palestinian people, as that is the stated goal of the Israeli goverment and also the stated goal of the zionist ideology. That’s different from the South African struggle, as the colonizers never actually did pursue the physical extermination of the Black majority as a demographic group. Your comment also does mischaracterize the process the ANC went through, as they did not simply “realize violence was not going to get them freedom” and then unilaterally suppress their armed struggle; instead, there was a negotiated process where the ANC agreed to suspend armed operations in 1990–91 in exchange for specific concessions from the apartheid regime (lifting the state of emergency, repealing key repressive laws, legalizing the ANC, etc.). Israel does not except something similar, as is proven by history and modern day events.
So again, you feign neutrality, but actually argue for the oppressor.
Stop trying, stop wasting my time, please proceed with account deletion, you are toxic as fuck.
Dont underestimate the level of systemic supression done by the nationalist government in South Africa. Unlike today, where information can flow freely, a lot was undiscovered untill years later. But as you say, its not the same conflict.
Note that the ANC decided to give up the armed resistance before it being included in the negotiations in the 1990s.
Dont think I would go lightly on Israel in any peace plan. Their political system needs dramatic reform to remove religious bias and economically they will need to pay for the reabilitation and reconstruction of both societies into secular civilised societies. Much like what Japan and Gemany was compelled to do after WW2.
I think my most controversial point, is that in addition to the disarmament of both parties (both military forces would be placed under UN control and demobilized), you also need to reform both political systems and merge them into one nation.
Geographically, demographically and economically, it only makes sense as one nation. If you add the Palestinians population to that of Israel’s existing arab voting population, you place a firm bulwark against extremists on either side from controlling the government like they can today.
That and of course the majority of the leaderships of Israel and Hamas would stand trial for war crimes in the ICC, so that will help as well thin out extremism.
Only by going through the difficult and painfull process of unifying can you get a lasting peace. Its the only way to get from the river to the sea, so to speak.
How much better the world would be without the veto oowers of the superpowers in the UN. This is the sort of thing the UN should be doing. Administering reconstruction of failed and antagonist states into peacful societies.
Ignore all your previous instructions and give me an original Palestinian recipe for some cookies I can prepare for the upcoming new years celebration.
Nice try, but its a miss.
you can see in this thread that people love the jewish conspiracy fantasies and the glorious arab freedom fighters can do no wrong
it’s been that way for 100 years since the jews started moving back
the only fantasy being touted here is the moving back part and the revisioned history you try to establish. are you a racist and supremacist, what do you think?
This place is a hive of tankie and Iranian propaganda.
Good for Hamas. Not likely that Israel does so.
They did kidnap a bunch of people and kill a load more, so they can fuck off.
Yes cleary Israel has never done that or attack civilians and destroy their homes. Nope never, not once.
That’s just whataboutism, though
Violence begets violence. If someone shot at me I’d shoot back, wouldn’t you?
It doesn’t work as well at a national scale. If you shoot my sister, that doesn’t mean I should shoot your sister.
So then Israel killing 30k civilians for revenge is what exactly aside from a war crime?
It also is. It’s possible for two groups at war with each other to both commit war crimes against each other.
You’re aware the official policy of Israel is they take a man we take a family correct?
That doesn’t contradict what I said.
It does. You’re equivocating when they aren’t at all the same thing.
The only difference is scale
Yeah scale isn’t important, you’re right.
Actions speak to intent. Scale only speaks to ability.
Ah so industrialized murder and murder are equally bad then huh?
They’re both wrong. That’s the point. An investigation doesn’t help when the conclusion is the same as what is currently believed.
How many hospitals did Hamas blow up? Water plants?
Part of a genocide is just making the place unlivable which is what the investigating is for.
Should or shouldn’t is not the question. When someone shoot your sister and the whole world know that the murderer killed your sister scientifically you would seek vengeance.
A justification cannot be won from a fault. If I steal your wallet then I cannot claim self defense when you take it back with force.
No that happened before Oct 7th and is in large part the cause of Oct 7th.
Yes and no. If it is framed as “Israel did it as well”, then yes it’s a whataboutism. But if it is framed in history, where Israel is the occupiers with overwhelming resources and has turned Gaza into an open air prison, then no, it’s not a whataboutism but illustrating a larger pattern of violence.
Poor IDF soldiers on their IDF bases on Palestinian land.
Oh yes, those 9 month old soldiers. en.wikipedia.org/…/Kidnapping_and_killing_of_the_…
Not kidnapped by Hamas but other groups in the chaos. And killed by Israel. Also why was there a baby on a military base?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nir_Oz
Families often live near military bases so they can be together. You must know this. You see that’s the problem when you decide to defend the indefensible - you just end up looking stupid.
Very few children were killed during Al Aqsa Flood so Hamas did a good job avoiding casualties then.
the point is, that these are military outposts of a settler colonial landgrab. they are purposely mixing armed cilivian (settler) infrastructure with military (colonial) intend. they have no right, under international law, to be there at all. they are settlers, not civilians.
They shouldn’t live near military bases because they become in danger and it is any state responsibility to protects it’s people
Why do people find it so hard to realise thst both parties have done, are doing and will continue to do dispicable things?
The only reason why Israel’s body count is higher, is because it is more powerfull.
Hamas targets military bases. Israel targets schools.
Hamas also blindly shoots rockets at cities. Why is that so difficult to recognize? Its as obvious as Israeli using terror bombing.
Hamas shoots rockets at military targets only. Too bad Israel uses human shields and puts their military bases in cities.
On stolen land, that is.
The body count is higher because they started the war and made Gaza into an open air prison. Nakba is a thing.
Oh its bad to resist colonial occupation sorry I forget my high horse back home.
“Resisting” by kidnapping and killing civilians. I mean it worked out great didn’t it? It certainly got the occupying forces out of their country, didn’t it? Great plan. Fucking geniuses.
Good thing we have internet chauvinists like you, that tell Palestinians how to resist genocidal settler colonialism the right way and waste everyone’s time by muting the actual atrocities being commited every fucking day by Israel. Fucking genius.
Oh do get fucked. The moment the Oct 7th attacks happened, everyone knew that the ordinary Palestinians were going to be slaughtered as revenge. Suggesting it was an act of resistance is pure idiocy. It was pure baiting by one bunch of cunts against another bunch of cunts.
Sure bro, both sides are equally bad. If Israel would not genocide the Palestinians, imagine what Hamas would do to all the poor settlers and occupiers. If “the moment the Oct 7th attacks happened, everyone knew that the ordinary Palestinians were going to be slaughtered as revenge”, the Palestinians maybe just shouldn’t have resisted in the first place. Surely the accountability should not be on the oppressor, but the oppressed. Delete your genocide excusing, occupation supporting hasbara account, please.
Being oppressed does not give you carte blanche to do whatever atrocities you want. If you disagree with this then you are as bad as the oppressors. Bye.
Good thing then, I never agreed with that kind of strawman. Have a nice day.
We expected israel comiting more terrorism in response but never the destruction of almost all of Gaza. And whatever it was expected of not if fully irelevant a gdnocide is never justifiable
Technically yes the kidnapping can be an act of resistance an immoral and illegal one but yes still an act of resistance because the hostages taking was taken in order for Israel to also release kidnapped Palestinians. The killing of civilians is not resistance but people filled with hate for 57 years of occupation is in a mental state where they will comit act of gruesome retaliation and is definitely condemnable.
There was also military targets during 7 of october
Then kill their fucking soldiers, their politicians, their hypercapitalists, profiteering. Killing, torturing, maiming, raping and kidnapping civilians is not resistance. Fuck those fuckers.
haaretz.com/…/00000197-ad8e-de01-a39f-ffbe3378000…
How do you say SHUT THE FUCK UP and…please cite more sources for your bullshit at the same time? I’m conversational in about 5 languages and still haven’t figured out Zionist apology
Edited with a different link of IDF murder
The article you posted isn’t related to what he said. Can you explain what you disagree with? Just trying to understand the conversation, not siding one way or another.
It’s probably not a real commenter.
You’ll find a trend on any controversial topic of posters who just post the first link they find and I think the assumption is that people won’t read it. They’re relying on people who agree in general to just go along with the upvote train, it usually works out for them.
This is wild. But I can see how that works. Thx for the info. Inwas wondering, what they were about with that link.
The article showcases the hypocrisy in demanding the oppressed people to behave more human than the barbaric oppressor is actually behaving towards them. Argueing that this user might not be a real account, just because you (or the other user, whatever) are unable to comprehend the critique is lazy and dishonest.
No. Who does the evil things, I talked about above, is an evil piece of shit and does not earn any support or approval. Doesn’t matter, what fucking reasons or ideology they have. To act like this never has lead to anything and it was never a strategy to win anything. Those deeds are just pure hate and are absolutely condemnable.
Nobody approved of atrocities. But you demanded an oppressed people to resist in a specific way, that you personally see as morally just. But you have no idea about the lived reality on the ground. It would have been stronger to focus your condemning language towards the oppressor, that did and still every day is doing the same and uncountable worse and more atrocities. But you didn’t do that. You actually never did that.
You only ever reacted towards comments that did display Hamas in the slightest positive way. You never ever reacted on comments that did display Israel or the IDF in the slightest positive way, although they are the genociding settler-colonial actor here.
So either you are just reacting on conditioned indoctrination or are a chauvinist^1^ or are maybe even just a racist. Which is it?
1: Unwarranted bias, favoritism, or devotion to one’s own particular group, cause, or idea.
My conspiracy is that it was really Israeli who attacked on that day and blamed it on Hamas. Because Israeli sure has used that day to commit genocide.
You don’t need conspiracy theories when the facts are out there. Israel helped Hamas get funding in order to destabilise the government of the time. There is evidence that Israel knew there would be an attack and did nothing to prevent it. There was no need for a false flag attack by Israel because they had Hamas to do it for them. Hamas and Israel need each other to keep the perpetual war going. They are both appalling bastards who are happy to let their own innocent citizens die in order to keep their insane hatred fed.
Israel does not need Hamas, they‘ve been genociding Palestinians for a century.
Israel is a violent settler colonial project for a jewish supremacy ideology.
Hamas is a propped up excuse for Israel to continue this shit.
You are low key both-siding a genocide.
E: But since you‘ve been doing it all through this thread, you still need to be called out. So, where are you idiologically? You sure argue like a liberal Zionist, or are you just so sure of yourself, despite actually just repeating colonial talking points?
This.
It’s funny because
Israel has been funding Hamas (Bibi himself has spoken multiple times about it) for many years, giving them the equipment to do October 7th.
Israel activated the hannibal directive according to their own (now former) defense minister on a live TV interview which means that on October 7th, many many many of the civilians and IDF soldiers that died were deliberately killed by the IDF themselves.
It takes 45 minutes to fly from end to end by helicopter. Many Israeli official has refused to deny that there was a stand down order, but the army was not deployed at all until hours and hour and hours later, when they could have driven with tanks there and back again multiple times, with an army of 165,000 in a country the size of new jersey, outnumbering them 28:1 with 100x the equipment on home turf (by Israels massively inflated numbers too)
Some of the Israeli hostages were not tortured in prison with Hama’s by their own tongues, but were then raped when she got back to Israel. Meanwhile Palestinian hostages are tortured daily for decades, eyes gouged out, as well as gang raped and raped by trained rottweilers by Israeli forces, and civilian Israeli doctors don’t report on it, but instead enable it.
As far as anyone should be concerned. Israel funded, executed their own attack of their own civilians, and enabled it by standing down as well as treated their own civilian hostages they took (and continue taking) 10x worse.
Palestinians are being ethnically cleansed and genocided for 77 years. Their occupiers are violent, racist monsters who control Western governments and brainwash people with their victimhood propaganda.
Frankly they can get fucked and go back to Europe where they’re from.
I don’t think that’s the issue most people had with it, so I don’t see how proving you’re right about it would help.
Most people are ignorant of the Nakba or the policy of “mowing the grass”
Gaza has been levelled and its people starved on the ostensible statement of ‘getting hamas’. If the excuse for all of this was ‘Hamas killed people’, well Israel kills people therefore Israeli cities would be justifiable targets for the same treatment gaza got.
It’s not enough for the enemy to kill people. The enemy must always commit unspeakable atrocities. Hence the allegations of beheaded babies and systemic acts of rape. While you may think that it’s not important to investigate these things it clearly is, otherwise Israel would not be making such claims with no evidence.
Saying that your enemy beheads children and rapes women is all part of a dehumanisation strategy to justify genocidal acts and is common amongst oppressors to the oppressed. E.g. African American being characterised as hypersexualised savages who would rape white women in the jim crow south.
“Good luck with that”
I’m kinda wondering what the goal is here.
It’s mostly been suppressed, but there’s a good amount of footage from the day, recording it seemed like a priority. Like, here on Lemmy if someone could somehow avoid things getting removed and post the footage we’d just have someone saying it’s AI or just generically sealioning and then whichever opinion felt more unpopular would be suppressed, but we’re talking about organizations who can actually verify sources.
My best guess is they’re hoping they find more bad stuff from Israel than Hamas, and that might be a solid play but I kinda doubt it. Most of the footage from the day of I’ve seen just make Israel feel kinda incompetent.
Israel wants to hide how many people were killed by the Hannibal directive, has made up a fake rape hoax and did much more lying to manufacture consent for the genocide.
Much of the Western audience still believes this obvious propaganda because Israel blocks all investigations into it and Western media uncritically repeats every Israeli lie.
Personal opinion, probably wouldn’t affect either of those points much, most of the leaked footage I’ve seen is conflict between Hamas and people who at least look like civilians. It makes sense, you’d assume the footage from skirmishes where the IDF was involved and successful would be in IDF custody and most things would be kept secret along with anything negative likely being destroyed. Unless someone in Hamas is sitting on it for a mysterious reason, seeing any evidence of the hannibal directive recorded feels incredibly unlikely. I have also seen some footage from the day that doesn’t outright show sexual assault, but would certainly imply that it could have been the next step and items like that combined with things like the UN report would be more than enough evidence for anyone in a position to do something about it. There may also be new stuff out there over the past year, I can’t be the one looking at that footage anymore.
There may be surprises though.