It is Israel that must be deradicalized, not Palestine
(canadiandimension.com)
from theacharnian@lemmy.ca to world@lemmy.world on 20 Oct 2025 21:39
https://lemmy.ca/post/53729098
from theacharnian@lemmy.ca to world@lemmy.world on 20 Oct 2025 21:39
https://lemmy.ca/post/53729098
#world
threaded - newest
I mean, it’s really both. Hamas is batshit crazy, they’re just far less militarily powerful.
There are no good guys in the Israel Palestine fight.
If one stops trying to subjugate the other, the other should hopefully slowly start to be calm down about the subjugation.
Years and years of people stealing land, burning houses, shooting unarmed protesters and prosecuting people unfairly only leads to more hatred, more conflict, and more war.
If there was any chance of a free and fair election in Palestine that could elect something else it would be good, but only would end up different if it came without Israel’s interference and them actually staying out of Palestine. Governments like Israel and the U.S. or U.K. trying to put anyone on the ground there is more likely to cause conflicts. Where as if the UN countries all agreed to cut all trade with Israel if they didn’t stop trying to instigate shit… Israel would likely listen, or dissolve over time if they didn’t. The only people who should be on the ground there is investigate journalists and AID from around the world to help those people rebuild and leave whatever can be left behind them behind them
Honest question:
Why are the US and other countries, backing Israel so hard? I’ve heard they have an amazing spy system, and it seems to be only politicians that back Israel unconditionally. Is it blackmail, keeping our fuck ups as status quo, or maybe “Hamas is evil no matter what?”
No, it’s cultural affinity (polite way of saying racism) and economic interests (polite way of saying colonialism).
Same reason why the entire western world was fully supportive of South Africa during Apartheid
It’s also propaganda, AIPAC has been pushing the idea of Israel devotion for decades in the US. I’d imagine there’s similar lobbying groups (in less obvious forms) in other countries as well.
Falls under cultural affinity.
It also takes other forms, that are not always very explicitly racist. In Greece for example, a country with a traditionally anti-imperialist people (Papandreou and Arafat were really besties), Israel has become a strategic ally to contain against Turkish aggression. Even Tsipras was cordial with Bibi. Take away Erdogan’s sabre rattling and Greece would probably revert back to sanity.
I would say influencing others has less to do with racism and more to do with power mongering. People with power influencing others to get the outcome they want. Plenty of Democratic representatives who aren’t otherwise racist are impacted by them.
Where i live (argentina), Israel’s agenda is pushed in almost every news outlet, especially from the right. Some journalists even wear Israeli pins and have Israeli flags on their desks. And, for real, we couldn’t care less about the near east (dont get me wrong, but i think you will agree that we have our own set of domestic problems). For what I see and what I hear that happens in other parts of the west, I feel that “cultural affinity” isn’t the only card on their hand.
So, when you say racism, do you mean because of their religions, Palestinians being mostly Muslim and Israel being Jewish? Don’t they look the same?
I would say two types of racism
That area is so confusing to me. I learned about it in ancient times in college, but the cultural things like this are so wild. I wasn’t exposed to anything about it besides ancient history. Thanks for explaining a lot of. It seems that oil+racism=so many hate crimes
Talk to the Irish and Polish about 19th century racism.
Limiting racism to skin color is a more modern interpretation.
Well said. I probably would have taken 5 paragraphs to explain it so well. Imperialist interest align.
Honestly don’t know for certain, but Israel pays a lot of money into lobbying in the U.S.
On a side note I would say Israel is the U.S. guaranteed entry point to that region of the world, so when it comes to intimidating other countries having a foothold somewhere there is of value to the U.S. (vehicle efficiency has increased, and car ownership dropped from 138 million registered in 2021 to 97 million registered in 2023.). So 30% loss in cars., and population increased from ~285m to ~337m during that time. (Irrelevant, but for scale that’s 127% of Canadas population total)
So the U.S. has stockpiled military equipment in Israel for decadees that is well defended do to shared technologies. This allows for unilateral support if say Bush 1 or Bush 2 wants to manipulate the area for something pertaining to oil prices getting to low/high. Contrary to many, I believe the U.S. ensures oil barrels stay higher in price because the lifting cost in the U.S. is higher. A good example is our oil production has increased by more than double from 2001 till today.
If the cost of oil in Iran/Saudia Arabia go lower that profitability drops, and some of the largest contributors to the Republican party (oil companies in the west, would see huge drops in income).
Other countries of interest there. Argentina, Columbia, and Venezuela. Should also mention Brazil, but they have grown closer ties with China who they export most of their excess Oil production too. Harder to impact at the moment, so they likely want to keep them out of direct conflicts.
Remember Trump sat down in May 2024 asking oil executives directly for $1 billion dollars in campaign contributions to help him get elected with the promise to squash any programs he could pertaining to EV growth.
Aipac is funded by american zionists not israel
Oil and natural gas. Also using it as a proxy serving imperialism interests against the other side of impwrial countries (China and Russia)
I strongly believe some countries feel the need to support Israel through their worst decisions simply because they (Israel) have nukes. It would most likely be preferable to have a friendly nuclear power rather than an unfriendly rogue one, even if they’re frequently uncooperative.
and apparently doing genocide.
Depends on if you consider the civilians stuck in the middle of the conflict to be “in the fight”. They’re certainly casualties of it.
Really? No good guys? How about the protestors and activists? Or or or how about the MAJORITY OF PALESTINIANS STILL LEFT ALIVE WHO ARE LITERAL CHILDREN?
Yeah I’m sure OP meant that the children are bad guys. What a hot take. Get real
The point is that Hamas is made out to be much more than it actually is in that country. These deaths are not just Hamas and Israeli deaths, like lots of Americans seem to think they are.
The dude is both-siding a genocide, who knows what he’s capable of.
Are you another neutralist trying to spread the narrative according to which the palestinian deserved it?
Do you condemn the genocide?
Secular Palestinian Political Organisations existed, Bibi supported Hamas specifically to weaken the secular flanks, because it’s way easier to justify a genocide against Hamas
The secular Fatah ended up being the one collaborating with Israel
Mb, I should’ve mentioned “covertly” supporting Hamas.
The Qatari money was used for infrastructure projects. Israel as the occupying force it the one who allow money to go even to the west bank of the PA yet weirdly the rhetoric is only used to against Hamas . Hamas rely of smuggling for it’s military wing and arms.
How can you convince anybody that Hamas works for Israel against the “good” Palestinian authority who is collaborating for Israeli security while not protecting a single Palestinian from the settlers?
Fatah made a deal with Israel and it stuck to it. Fatah didn’t “collaborate”, it tried to achieve peace and a Palestinian state. It is the only player in the conflict that plays within the parameters set out by the UN.
Fatah is a truly tragic organization in this whole drama. Before you accuse Fatah of anything, you must first condemn Israel and the international community for betraying the shit out of them.
Israel didn’t respect the Oslo accords so PA shouldn’t keep respecting it either.
I condemn Israel first, the Arab traitors and western countries Israel supporters seconds and the occupation collaborators the PA last.
Easy to pontificate to the Palestinians what they should or shouldn’t do.
Support for Palestinian factions: support for Hamas declines by 4-points while support for Fatah remains unchanged. The decline in support for Hamas came from the West Bank. Support for Fatah is higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank and support for Hamas is also higher in the Gaza Strip than in the West Bank. In both areas, support for Hamas is higher than the support for Fatah.
Support for Palestinian leaders: If presidential elections were held between three candidates, Marwan Barghouti of Fatah, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, and Khalid Mishal of Hamas, Barghouti would receive 50% of the vote, followed by Khalid Mishal and Abbas.
The release of Marwan Barghouti is supported by Hamas but not by the Palestinian Authority
middleeasteye.net/…/war-gaza-palestinian-authorit….
Marwan Barghouti is a member of Fatah.
The JCPA that you cite is a conservative Israeli think tank…
Edit: You changed the citation.
Sure Abbas doesn’t want him out, but Fatah is not Abbas and Abbas is not Fatah. Fatah is a mass organization.
Barghouti is one of the few good people left in Fatah and the PA refuse to release him. Fatah abandoned him . I also updated my link with a pro Palestine source instead. The JCPA still a proof that Israel use the PA while insulting it at the same time . Collaborators like Abass are not respected neither by Palestinians and neither by Israeli
I think we are not too divergent in our preferences here. We both support Barghouti. Abbas is a 90 year old mummy, one foot in the grave. Not that relevant much longer.
He is going to be either replaced by another Puppet or Israel may decide to officially annexing the West Bank and dissolving the Palestinian Authority altogether
And where exactly do you place Hamas with their bombing campaign that led to Netanyahu, who wanted to end Olso, being elected to replace Peres, who wanted to enact it?
Israel want the whole land since it’s creation so stop blaming everything on Hamas . Hamas reply to occupation brutality that’s all and occupier force always committed more crimes against any act of resistance . The plo respected the term, Israel didn’t because they do not want peace. If you accept Israel excuses you are not better than any Zionist
After the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine - Ben Gurion
Partition might be only a temporary arrangement for the next twenty to twenty-five years - Chaim Weizmann
There will be no Palestinian state—this land is ours - Netenyahu on September 11, 2025
You seem to struggle with the concept that Israel (and Palestine) consists of more than one person or faction and that there are factions that want peace and factions that want war. Hamas made sure the Israeli faction that wanted peace lost power in '96
You seem to not understand that treaties and deals do not become null when a prime minister or president change . The accords was between Israel as a state and the PLO. Netanyahu represent the state of Israel, Hamas is not a member of the PLO. So Israel can’t claim Hamas actions make the accords null and no matter who is wrong illegal settlements are never justified. Genocide is never justified either
Yeah I’m sure Netanyahu is really impressed with you being upset that he did exactly what he promised to do if he got elected… And apparently not caring about Hamas enabling him to do so at the same time
There we go with people who think Netanyahu is the only problem and not the Zionist ideology that radicalized Israelis and is the reason why Israel is maintaining occupation . Netanyahu winning has nothing to do with Hamas.
Answer this simple question. Do you think Israel want to end occupation if Hamas is destroyed?
You really need to read up on the political situation in Israel in the mid-'90s
You need to read who was the main opponent against Netenyahu. He was one of the early Israeli leaders that supported the building of settlements
middleeastmonitor.com/20160928-shimon-peres-israe…
It is pretty clear that you hide behind Hamas and Netenyahu to defend Israel which never wanted peace based on their leaders themselves
Why do you think Rabin and Peres agreed to the Oslo Accords?
If you believe an Israeli can never be trusted to uphold a peace agreement, how do you suggest this ever gets resolved?
They are hypocrites and their war crimes proves it
Israel should become an isolated state heavily sanctioned, nobody should give a single dime or arm to Israel so Israel is forced to discuss in good faith. Then Israel should dismantle all his settlements over the time if the two state solution is agreed about or implement a one state solution with equal rights. Whatever there is a one state or a two state and army is necessary to fight anybody who refuse peace whatever it is Israelis or Palestinians
I know you will say that it’s is not realistic but right now there is not a single short term realistic easy solution because Israel refuse peace, the West and even Arab countries are allowing Israel to do whatever they want, Palestinians will keep resisting sometimes according the international laws and someone just unjustifiable retaliation so we end up in the same status quo that only serve Israel
Netanyahu love that you shift the blame to Palestinians and use his excuses as valid reasons for the state of Israel continue occupation, continue stealing wesbtbankers land and allow the settler terrorists to attack Palestinian civilians
Well I’m not saying, as you seem to hinge your argument on, that Netanyahu is blameless
I mean, he ran his election campaign on it! lol
I’m saying Hamas should not be excused for helping him win it.
Here we go again you keep talking about Netanyahu which we all know he is a terrible war criminal. Yet you can’t admit that Israel always wanted the whole land . I showed you that Shimon Perez who was his opponent was as bad as Netanyahu. I showed you Israeli leaders all over the decades defending occupation. I will repeat them again
www.972mag.com/yitzhak-rabin-oslo-accords-aoc/
palquest.org/…/yitzhaq-rabin’s-address-knesset-af…
We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines. Yitzhak Rabin
There is Israeli leaders that are less honest than others that’s all. All of them do not want a Palestinian state
Do you think Arafat wanted an Israeli state?
So now you even deny that Arafat wanted an Israeli state. Have some shame please
2001-2009.state.gov/p/nea/rls/22579.htm
In return Rabin recognized the PLO but not the Palestinian state. So we know very well that it is Israel who never ever recognized the other side based on 67 border
Since you keep ignoring evidence I have to copy again the same proofs
palquest.org/…/yitzhaq-rabin’s-address-knesset-af…
We would like this to be an entity which is less than a state, and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six Day War. We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines. Yitzhak Rabin
I’m not asking whether Arafat agreed to Oslo - we know he did. I’m asking whether you think he was keeping his fingers crossed behind his back when he did. You seem to think this was the case for Rabin and Perez, so why don’t you extend the same courtesy to Arafat?
I think it would be very interesting for you to read up on Netanyahu’s criticism of the Oslo Accords from back when he was an opposition leader running against Perez. You’ll be happily surprised to find out he was using the exact same arguments as you are now, claiming the other side could never be trusted.
You asked if Arafat recognized the state of Israel and he did and I provided you the evidence. I gave you ststements from Israeli leaders from all eras and ignored them
You are the one who keep blaming palestinian for the maintenance of the occupation like Netenyahu claim and all Israel leaders refused to give Palestinians a full fledged state with full sovereignty
You need to read my comment again then. I didn’t ask whether he stated he recognized it after Oslo. .
Then what do you make of this statement by Arafat?
His last position was that he recognized israel right to exist. Israel position since it’s creation is no palestinian state ever
You are not discudding in good faith.
But why do you agree that Arafat was able to change his position because of Oslo, but not Rabin and Perez?
I’m not discudding in bad faith, I believe you are twisting yourself to justify Hamas sabotaging the peace accords
You have volunteer dementia. Like I already told you Netanyahu himself admitted that he was the one who sabotaged it . You just hide behind Hamas to justify occupation . Hamas or not Israel has the obligation to end occupation unconditionally. Israel continued killing peaceful Palestinian protestors after the Oslo accords and before Hamas started his first suicide bombing . The number of settlers increased during Rabin and Rabin never acknowledged a full state by it’s own admission . If you have a statement from Perez where he accept a Palestinians state that include East Jerusalem, all of the west bank and Gaza that international laws supports with all it’s right : an army to defend itself, full control over the borders, import and export, natural ressources etc .
I will keep repeating the same points that you keep ignoring as much as necessary
Can you explain ‘volunteer dementia’ and how it relates to you accepting Arafat changing his position?
thats what i read too, and he mostly advocated funding to hamas too.
Hamas accept the two state solution. Israel doesn’t
They literally didn’t. Source?
middleeastmonitor.com/20240118-meshaal-hamas-reje…
The 2017 charter of Hamas say that it accept it , it is the last updated version. Khalil al-Hayya has more practical power within Hamas than Mashaal and he said that Hamas would drop arms after having a Palestinian state is made so without arms how are they supposed to destroy Israel
al-monitor.com/…/who-hamas-chief-negotiator-khali…
Hmm
Hamas doesn’t accept the two state solution. They are open to maybe discussing potentially reaching a consensus about the 1967 borders.
If you want to underscore Israeli unreasonableness, you’ve got to point to the PA/Fatah. The PA/Fatah has accepted the two state solution and has stopped violent resistance against Israel. They are in every way an interlocutor for peace. And in return they are being constantly undermined and ratfucked by Israel. Their territory is being annexed, its authority ridiculed, ita legitimacy destroyed.
So PA has respected the term of the Oslo accords and Israel didn’t and start building more settlements, arming and protecting the settlers yet PA still accept to work for Israel security while west banker get terrorized and attacked by them . Thank you for proving my point that PA are collaborators and Israel do not want peace regardless if Hamas is destroyed or not
Israel actually dismantled settlements after Oslo. Hamas opposed the Accords and carried out several deadly bomb attacks against Israeli civilians in the runup to the next election. This put Netanyahu in power who ran on an agenda of opposing Oslo as well. Their refusal to a two state solution, and futile hope to defeat Israel through violence and terrorism, squandered every chance for a peaceful solution.
Israel under Rabin seemed intent to stick to the accords, but a far-right ultrazionist terror attack in Hebron and the subsequent assassination of Rabin by a right-wing Israeli extremist undermined it significantly as well.
Of course the mosque attack had the same aim, and needs to be condemned just the same. But despite them, Arafat and the PA decided to continue the path towards peace. Hamas saw them even more as traitors and collaborators because of it (and, I’d like to point out, several posters in this thread still seem to believe this).
Despite it being a shocking event, the assassination of Rabin did not make Israel leave the path. His successor vowed to continue and even had a 30-point lead in the polls at one point.
Without the Hamas’ bombing campaign Netanyahu would have been left shouting from a corner instead of being handed the power to reverse Oslo.
then quickly built new one. Even if it was Palestinian that did not respect it. Building more settlements is illegal under international law
Hamas was not part of the Oslo accords . Netanyahu himself say that he was the one who sabotaged it not Hamas
Before we continue: do you believe Netanyahu was part of the Oslo Accords?
What a dumb question
The Oslo Accords are a pair of interim agreements between Israel and the PLO. Israel can’t escape from it’s obligation just because the prime minister changed. Hamas was never a member of the PLO
Do you believe Netanyahu represented Israel when the Oslo Accords were signed?
Do you think Hamas took over the obligation from the PLO to follow the Oslo Accords when they were elected in Gaza?
Netanyahu represent the state of Israel and have to respect the accords the state of Israel did sign before him. No leaders today has signed the Geneva and genocide convention for example does that mean that current leaders shouldn’t respect the conventions their countries signed?
Hamas was not part of the accords so no Hamas doesn’t have the obligation to respect it . Israel has killed innocent protestors after the accords was signed and before Hamas committed it’s first suicide bombing. After the Oslo accords and before Hamas did it’s first suicide bombing , the number of settlers increased and the settler violence never stopped
It’s simple logic that you doesn’t seem to be able to process. Israel and the countries who support settler colonialism are the only one responsible for the continuation of the occupation.
Once Palestine get liberated we can start talking about holding both side responsible for war crimes and have a great truth and Truth and Reconciliation process
Say Netanyahu is voted out. Do you feel his successor is ‘honor bound’ to continue the deals Bibi made with Trump?
Signed deals between two states should be respect even when the leaders changes.
Once Netenyahu is voted out someone as bad or worse will take his place. If Hamas is desarmed , isrsel will continue occupation and will move to blame someone else in Palestine
Let’s knock it up another notch
Say you are given leadership of Israel. Would you feel bound to respect the deals Bibi made with Trump?
I am done with your stupid questions. I already answered it
You're exaggerating, but also sure, why do they need to go any further? Compromising beforehand is never a good idea, see: PA. Speaking of which, PA isn't a tragic victim; they're an active collaborator. The only thing they do is keep Palestinians under an oppressive dictatorship and fight what little Palestinian resistance exists in the West Bank. That's why they have no legitimacy; their current program is one of submission, not "peace."
Hamas sabotaged the Oslo Accords by blowing up civilians exactly because they opposed a two state solution. (Succesfully, because this then helped Netanyahu seize power)
Hamas was not part of the Oslo Accords so no Hamas did not sabotaged it . Oslo Accords is still respected by the PLO while Israel continue to steal Palestinians land, arm and protects the settler terrorists. I don’t know why you keep using the same excuse Israel do
The two state solution is shit. We don’t need two ethnostates, we need a normal state that respects human rights.
I also support the one state solution but many Palestinians still believe in a two state solution and Palestinian will have the right to pick which one they really want
You’re right. Have a nice day mate
That would be nice, but its basically impossible at this point. Neither side would accept the other being a part of their governance. The only way to get to one state now is, well, to do what everyone is accusing Israel of doing right now.
What? Hamas's position of "give us a Palestinian state and we'll give them our weapons" is very reasonable. Their lack of respect for civilian lives is one thing, but "batshit crazy" ain't it. Why do you think they're batshit crazy?
Fatah. Marwan Barghouti. Palestinian civil society calling for BDS.
Just because Israel wants the Hamas scarecrow as its opponent doesn’t mean the rest of Palestinian society is irrelevant.
Hamas has power because they are resisting an apartheid state. I’m sorry but I absolutely hate this take. You can criticize a state when it gains sovereignty and is enacting unjust laws against its citizens. But when the only resistance to an apartheid state is a right wing faction that right wing faction is still correct for resistance.
Do you think the solution to the unjust Jim Crow laws of the segregation in the US South would be for Canada to start carpet bombing Atlanta? A people can not make progress within their state structures while under the thumb of oppression and apartheid.
The time to criticize the Palestinian state is after there is a sovereign Palestinian state. Hamas on paper might have right wing ideas. But Hamas as a force fighting an apartheid state against the genocide of its people is absolutely fully justified. And that’s who makes up “Hamas”.
The Palestinian people don’t have the luxury of deciding which ideology is fighting to resist their extermination. And not until they have self determination as a people can they begin to actually progress in their civil rights.
Not to mention that few Palestinians currently alive ever voted for Hamas. The average Palestinian is 20 years old, 63% of their population is under 29. The last election was in 2006, meaning 63% of the current population would be 10 or younger when those elections happened.
Slight dip in Hamas support, but group still most popular
The group resisting genocide is popular? /shocked
Of course there aren’t. Especially not the (checks notes) starving civilians, children, the elderly, the disabled and the people wanting to live a normal life. They’re ceratainly not “in the fight”. They’re not right beside it, either. They’re magical beings made up by Khamas to make the world hate Israel.
Both sides are the same. That’s why one should genocide the other. It is the natural order of the world, after all.
Come on, dude/dudette. It’s not about sides. It’s about people. But there’s one thing about sides I do know: there’s one side of history you’re on. And it’s exactly the wrong one.
Hamas is crazy as Crazy Horse was “crazy”. You know what both have/had in common? They are/were fighting displacement of their friends and family due to colonizing powers. The only difference is the latter’s people suffered almost complete annihilation while the former is a work on progress. If the British didn’t insist on making Palestine their reservation for Jews, then Palestinian freedom fighters wouldn’t have had to fight Zionists violently encroaching upon their native land.
“82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza”
geopoliticaleconomy.com/…/poll-israelis-expel-pal…
I doubt you’d have the same number from Palestinians because they are not indoctrinated from birth to dehumanise, like the Israelis are. There’s a reason corporate media in the West never interview “normal” israelis
I think you seriously underestimate the Palestinians and what they think of their neighbours
Really? Gee I wonder why /s
Okay, I’ll bite. Let’s say that Palestinians also need to be deradicalized. Surely the first step should be to stop the ongoing genocide and apartheid?
Sure best thing today (for me) would seem to stop fighting, re-establish pre '67 borders and go from there.
I don’t know what you understand under ‘end apartheid’ (it’s been thrown around rather cheaply lately) but if you mean a one-state-solution where everybody stops thinking along religious lines: I don’t really think that’s realistic in the short term
I’m also not sure what I mean by “end apartheid”, because I also don’t know whether it’s realistic in the short term. That would still be the most realistic path to deradicalising Palestine.
A reasonable first step towards that long term goal would be to end the ongoing genocide. It’s hard to even speculate about possible futures when each day of needless bloodshed makes future peace more difficult.
Did you just “bOth SiDeS” a genocide?
The genocidee deserved it because if they were genociders they would be genociders. I’m a genious
Ahahaah yeah “very fine people on both side”. Kinda like between the turks and the armenians. Or those hutus vs tutsis thing, the tutsi deserved it
Peace of shit
This is astroturfed btw. Lemmy world ex-admins declared he was recieving israeli propaganda in his @lemmy.world inbox.
also you must be deradicalized, and everyone else on lemmy
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/f637a0d8-9302-4040-9138-99ea28ca837f.jpeg">
benjamin needs to be prosecuted like he shouldve been, before he got the PM position again.
Kahanism sucks.
is this blog?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Dimension
So, essentially yes.
This isn’t 2005, where things are either newspapers or blogs. Welcome to 2025, where entirely online media organizations exist.
<img alt="Why not both" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/5d0a04f8-5e27-4aad-903d-2a1074d0f031.jpeg">
Porque no los dos
“82% of Israelis want to expel Palestinians from Gaza; 47% want to kill every man, woman, child in Gaza”
geopoliticaleconomy.com/…/poll-israelis-expel-pal…
It would be very interesting to see how Palestinians would respond to the same questions.
Why would Palestinians want Palestinians expelled from Gaza?
Your answer gives me a chuckle because I was wondering if I had to type it ‘toddler-proof’ to prevent people making a funny instead of an answer ;-)
I had to. Was compelled to. The world being what it is, I gotta make levity where I can.
Ah yes the genocidee deserved it because if they were genociders they would be genociders. I’m a genious
Why would you say they deserved it? Do you think Israelis would ‘deserve it’?
The Israeli state at least, like the German Nazi state during WW2, does deserve to be destroyed. Palestinians have had a life of continual murder from advanced weaponry at the hands of Israelis, but even they still generally don’t want to kill every Israeli person.
Nazi Germany was only defeated through putting a genocide on the German people, forcing their leadership to give up and surrender. Do you think the Germans who were genocided ‘deserved it’?
Mass killings of civilians were committed against Germany and Japan, and those attacks are widely seen as war crimes, most reasonable people don’t argue that the average German or Japanese worker going about their day deserved getting firebombed. There were mass atrocities but they weren’t defeated by genocide, they were defeated by a military campaign that took out any capacity they had to wage war.
Sure they were. Had the German military chosen to continue the fight through guerilla warfare à la Hamas, the Allies would have continued their genocide of Germany à la Israel. It’s the German military high command that chose to surrender instead of continuing the fight.
There actually was a German resistance movement against the Allied occupation forces. Little known about but they killed about 5.000 occupation troops. The Allies and the US in particular carried out the death penalty for anyone being caught attacking their occupation troops.
All of the land occupied by Israel is stolen from Palestinians, they would be justified in wanting them out and their homes back. But if you ask them they generally say they don’t necessarily want to evict anyone, most of the average people there just want to live and have sovereignty.
Would you say that a jewish Israeli whose ancestors lived there in 1800 had stolen the land from Palestinians? What if they immigrated there in 1880 and built a hut in the desert? Not to make light of the situation but I hope you understand there’s more nuance than the trope “jews arrived there on a boat in '46 and claimed the land”. The idea that we should merge all the different nations that emerged back into a resurrected Ottoman Empire to make everyone who was wronged whole again is just unworkable.
Everyone who came after British colonization is a colonist. And especially those who came after 1948 Nakba
I’m happy you’re at least seeing the nuance lol
Not super relevant though
looks at post title
Same question from you.
See, sometimes there is this thing called “both sides can be wrong” but in this case the power imbalance combined with 5 decades of Israel terrorizing Palestinians makes it that you can just safely say that Israel is the guilty party here, period, end of discussion
This issue isn’t new. 4 decades ago as a child I read about abuses from Israel against Palestinians. 4 decades ago I remember someone making national headlines because she dated to hang a Palestine flag from her house. She was immediately labelled an anti-Semite, whereas all she wanted was some basic support for suffering Palestinians.
Don’t even start about Hamas. Hamas is at least in part funded by Israel to be a terrorist group so that Netanyahu had an excuse to continue to terrorize Palestinians.
You can’t take all that and then say “weeeeellll, but Palestinians have done bad things too, you know!”
I’m sure they did, I’m sure they have. I’m also sure it’s irrelevant as it’s literally pennies to the dollars that Israel is doing and has been doing since it’s founding
I’m at the point where I wonder if the Israeli as a state should continue to exist. It’s toxic, it’s at the source of almost every conflict in the middle east since WWII. It continuously attacks everyone around them. It sends in tanks and military to kill children who dared to throw stones. Then you keep seeing these polls where the majority of Jews in Israel have, shall we say euphemistically, rather dark opinions. I keep seeing videos of entire neighborhoods rallying being extremely racist against anyone who is not Jewish. I keep seeing videos of these
settlersinvaders who just steal Palestinian homes and lands. You see targetted campaigns against anyone world wide who even dares to speak up against this toxic behavior. This shit has been going on like this for decades now.It really really makes me wonder if that state there is such a good idea in the first place.
And I’m sure I’ll be labeled anti semite for expressing these opinions but that word has lost all its meaning. It used to be something really bad because in WWII Jews were massacred. But what are we supposed to do, say, or think when now, today, 80 something years later, it’s Israel doing the massacring?
Questions like yours are so extremely disingenuous…
I dunno. There’s a lot you can say about the jews, but I don’t really think they were trying to create a zionist state inside Germany in the 1930’s…
Ever since the 1920’s both zionists and muslim arab-nationalists have been duking it out over the spoils of the Ottoman Empire to carve out their own country.
There were a lot of states created from the Ottoman Empire. Most of those borders were carved along ethnic and religious lines and spoiler alert: they weren’t decided through peace and friendship.
It’s interesting to see how people would compare Israel’s guilt to that of, say, Turkey. The latter put a genocide on 1,5 million Armenians to carve out their territory. There’s a bit of irony to be found when people argue that Israel shouldn’t exist because there’s conflict. Had they followed the Turks’ example back in '48, the memory of their sins would have started fading into history the very next day.
And if you have paid attention, there are quite few voices there as well to officially recognize it as a genocide. It’s also rather important to add the bit where this happened before the word genocide existed. Lastly, if we go back far enough in history we’ll find dozens of examples that would have been genocides but again, we didn’t really have that concept setup until after WWII. From the Wikipedia article on genocide
Also I made the argument that Israel perhaps shouldn’t exist because it has been an agressor from pretty much day one and it has continued this to the point where there is a clear pattern of aggression. Though the Turks, to continue your example, suppress the Kurds, I haven’t seen turkey attack nearly all of its neighbors, and they have definitely not committed genocide in the past 50 years
Israel, on the other side, has been in countless wars with countless countries. It executed (understandable but still) extrajudicial executions, it has subjugated Palestinians to the worst atrocities seen since WWII for over 5 decades now. Hell, they’ve been funding terrorists (Hamas) just so they could continue murdering innocent Palestinian with a flimsy excuse. They regularly let “settlers” (nice euphemism there) steal Palestinian houses and land, and if Palestinians resisted even the slightest bit, they’d be murdered without repercussions. For decades.
I’d argue that there is a clear structural pattern of aggression and violence from this state, hence the question: should this state continue to exist? Because if it does so in its current form, I guarantee you that the middle east will never find peace.
Then, Palestinians aren’t trying to create a state within Israel. They had their lands, were driven off of it, Hardee’s in small areas which are the places they’d like to have their independent state with Israel being a neighbor.
And yeah, the way that the middle east was carved up was asking for trouble, because of course it was. That, however, doesn’t excuse anything that Israel is doing today nor anything of what it has been doing for decades.
Well that’s my point, innit?
You don’t hold that against Turkey as much, even though they murdered more than ten times as many innocent people because, well, “it’s been a while now”.
If Israel had just murdered all of the muslim Palestinian population in '48, you’d say they were better than Turkey.
Almost certainly similar in spirit, regardless of what their Western fans like to project.
It’s a pretty symmetrical situation, even if they have different skin colours. If only we could treat it that way (edit: and then the capability gap wouldn’t be there either).
It doesn’t news. It is just opinion.
You spelled dissolved wrong.
They are not wrong that Israel is radicalised. However, peace is a process, and what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.
If Israel was actually willing to reconcile and treat Palestinians as equals, the South African model of truth & reconciliation (including amnesty for abuses in exchange for full disclosure of what happened), it wouldn’t be just for the victims, but it would allow both sides to move on peacefully.
The real problem is that Netanyahu, Smoltrich, Ben Gvir etc… don’t actually want peace, so even a neutral truth & reconciliation is currently unlikely to happen without their backers (especially the US) forcing them.
You can already see the hallmark signs of a state funded media campaign to undermine any and all claims that the ceasefire has been broken and continues to be so.
They’re using the fact that people are tired of seeing and reading about horrible things knowing they have no control over it. As a result, the public are now personally invested (mental wellbeing) into the ceasefire being real. Even if the bombing campaign and conditions are nearly identical to pre-“ceasefire” levels, the general public is exhausted and takes the (still propagandized) media’s coverage as truth.
Hypernormalisation keeps coming to mind.
It’s both let’s be real
Why not both? Israel first though.
Edit: fine, palestine first. Easy with the downvotes.
its the aliens that are making the illuminati cause wars who are at fault.
I thought it was hugely funny that after two years of bombing to erase hamas, hamas still stands up armed as if they were never sffected
Israel? The nation that “secretly” detonated a nuclear bomb without any repercussions after the ban?
Israel? The nation that has a plan to nuke as many people as possible if their “promised land” is threatened?
No, not that Israel. There’s no way.
So here’s a comment which will probably be downvoted to hell, but I can deal with that.
I’m almost 50 years old. Israel and Palestine (plus other surrounding countries) have never been at peace as long as I can think.
There’s always some asshole who thinks fighting a war is the better option. If an Israeli prime minister wants to make peace, they fucking shoot him. If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.
In the meantime, there are at least some people on both sides who wish for nothing more than peace. Yes, we can debate on which side has more of them and it’s damn certain there aren’t enough of them by far.
But can we maybe just stop taking a side? This conflict is not about Israel or Palestine having to be deradicalized, OP, it’s about the all the warmongers and religious fundamentalists and radicals on both sides who need to be deradicalized.
There will never be an end to this as long as I live if we continue to blame either Israel or the Palestinians. Both is wrong, both of them haven’t done nearly enough to stop this insanity.
(But yeah, I totally agree, the current right wing Israeli government is a hopeless case if you want peace.)
Hamas is not Palestine and Palestine is not Hamas.
The victims of genocide, apartheid, occupation do not have the same level of culpability as the perpetrators. And it’s not the current right wing government that’s to blame, sorry. It is the whole edifice that the Israelis have built of occupation, apartheid, and now genocide.
You want a moderate palestinian leader? He exists. His name is Marwan Barghouti. And it’s not Hamas that has “done their own thing”. He’s in an Israeli jail, with that worm Ben Gvir torturing him.
And if 50 years seems like a long time to you, and that they should just grow up and accept the fait accompli of the occupation and the defeat, well sorry but that says more about you. I know nothing about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if you come from a cultural background that doesn’t have a history of resistance and struggle for freedom. My Greek ancestors were occupied for 400 years. The Irish for 800. Warmongering? Wars for freedom are just wars. Peace is not the absence of war, it is the presence of justice. No justice? No peace. As simple as that.
So yea, I’m going to take a side.
I acknowledged that when I said “If a Palestinian leader becomes too moderate, Hamas will do their own thing.”.
No, they don’t. There are many blameless Palestinians. And there are Israelis who voted for the current government, they surely carry more guilt in this war than Palestinian victims.
Firstly, I never said they have to accept it. If you think war is the only means of not accepting and trying to change it, it says a lot about you. Secondly, someone else in this comment section said: “what will lead to an enduring peace is actually more important than what is just.”
This is why this will never end.
Like I told you, it’s Israel that “mows the grass” to make sure no moderate gets ahead. Bargouti is in an Israeli jail.
But that’s the point: if it is not just, it will not be enduring. I don’t understand what is confusing about “no justice no peace”. Justice by the way does not mean that Palestinians get everything. It means that they get enough to feel that they have gotten a deal they can live with. Ireland is a fantastic example here actually. The Irish didn’t get a united Ireland in the early 20th century, but they got an independent country. And in the next chapter of struggle, the republicans and the unionists again didn’t get everything, but they got enough to get to a place they can live with. But Britain had to fucking let go in both cases. The Israelis have to fucking let go and they have to come to terms with what they’ve done and realize that they will have to pay some kind of reparation at the very least.
Nothing about it is confusing, it is very clear. And it is an absolute position that will make this conflict go on forever. Why? Because in an asymmetric conflict like this, there will always be injustice.
You have to find a way to end this injustice with peaceful means. I refuse to accept that only violence can solve this. That’s all I am saying.
What absolute position? I wrote a whole paragraph after the bit that you quote exactly on why it is not an absolute position.
Okay, I admit I didn’t pay enough attention to what you wrote. Probably because I don’t like being lectured about history.
But in that case, even better! They tried working on a two-state solution. It was shot down, but you gotta try again. And again. And again.
Everything Israel and the Palestinians are doing at the moment is the exact opposite. They create more violence, hatred, death, destruction and desire for vengeance, which in turn will be the fuel for more decades of war.
Stop both sides-ing for goodness sake! There are no two equal sides here. There are the perpetrators and the victims of a genocide, of apartheid, and of occupation.
Not to mention that you are literally factually wrong. Hamas controls Gaza but the PA controls the West Bank. There is nothing the PA does that “creates violence, hatred, destruction and desire for vengeance” among Israelis. So to be extremely clear YOUR FRAMING IS FACTUALLY WRONG. The PA has recognized Israel, supports the two state solution. The PA is so actively trying to supress radicals that if you look around this thread you will see people accusing it of being collaborationists. And what do they get in response? Colonization, occupation, apartheid, and pogroms. If Israel achieves its war goals and eliminates Hamas from Gaza, the result will be that that insufferable misery also extended there. The Palestinians are literally given a choice of genocide or apartheid, of a quick fiery death or a slow bleeding death. This is Israel’s policy and it isn’t just Bibi, it is the Israeli state policy of the last 30 fucking years.
Interesting thread, although your definition of ‘Justice’ being one where ‘each side gets what they can live with’ isn’t quite in line with how it’s defined. Many dictionaries word it slightly differently, but it all boils down to legality and morality, both of which have no absolute basis.
I.e. any side can cite any law or moral reference to support their view(s) and establish a casus belli. That only their described outcome is ‘just’. Justice =! compromise or reparation. It’s merely an interpretation.
In our current frame of reference, what Bibi and the Israeli forces are doing is reprehensible. However, the cessation and ‘deradicalization’ of such actors followed by the delivery of some form of ‘justice’ to all concerned doesn’t deliver a blank slate and an enduring solution, simply because the interpretation and basis of justice is so vastly different for each involved state in the whole region.
The concept of justice I’m advocating for in this context (and I’m not claiming to be a moral philosopher) is a mix of Transitional and Restorative concepts of justice. I’m inspired from things like ending vendettas/blood feuds. For such long standing conflicts, absolute justice is just not realizable, because absolute evil has already happened. However we can get to functional relationships and communities that work towards a future. So when I say ‘each side gets what they can live with’ I mean exactly the question of how far can you get to justice without breaking the future. And I actually mean “live with” not just tolerate but actually live. It’s not a compromise in the sense of horse trading, it is a compromising in the sense of accepting that some wrongs just cannot be amended but that a better future is still possible.
I understand your description of justice in this context. Could you follow that with real life examples of where a lasting peace has been achieved between actors after an ‘absolute evil’ has been done that meets your definition?
Also, what constitutes ‘living’ in your context? Would say, the relationship / situation between Greece and Turkey be accurately classified as living, even though quite some ‘hatred’ bubbles beneath the surface?
I am quite eurocentric, so take this as a caveat. France and Germany I guess would be the most obvious and successful example? And Germany with like the Netherlands, Poland, etc. Ireland with the UK are getting there too possibly. Sub-nationally, I would add South Africa to the list, maybe also Catalonia, Basque and Quebec (but they’re not winning the oppression olympics).
For Greece and Turkey I think it’s still an unfinished project (Cyprus is the proof of that). We have achieved a big degree of functional reconciliation, but mistrust, hatred, and shenanigans persist (my theory: this because neither nation properly reconciled with the fact that we based our peace on mutual ethnic cleansing…).
And here is the weird take of the day: I wouldn’t be too shy to say that a lot of the Balkans have “advanced” to a point where in practice memes and teasing (think 2balkan4u) serve as a sort of a weird fucked up balkan version of truth and reconciliation…
But that’s the point, right? Justice seen as a process. Nothing can ever be said to be “done” but you can get more towards it.
The ww2 example (assuming that’s what you’re referring to) is a very brief (if violent) conflict relative to the one we’re discussing in this topic, which is spread over at least centuries. Not too mention that ww2 was a burst of activity and a decisive conclusion was reached, unlike the conflict in question. Greece/turkey is a good example of a conflict that lasts at least a similar duration. Ireland/UK is also closer in that regard, but still is ‘only’ over decades of conflict.
With centuries of bad blood, the respective definitions of ‘justice’ from either side (in their various forms) have clearly drifted very far apart from each other. The ‘how’ aside (as seemingly no one is willing to nor able to achieve it), what would a realistic and just peace look like in your eyes for the region? Because I think we have to accept that (base on Greece/Turkey) a feud that lasts over a century is not overcome in one generation.
I won’t say much about the Balkans as I’m not well read on it and it seems to be one with more than two main actors.
The Franco-German rivalry I had in mind is much older. WW2 was the very final phase of it, but it is clearly present and recognizable at least as early as 1871, ie 70 years earlier, whereas the supposed chronology goes all the way back to the 1400s: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French–German_enmity
Regardless, I don’t have the answer, obviously, but I wouldn’t underestimate the capacity of the Israelis and Palestinians to actually get to a (likely implicit/de facto) agreement of what they think is an acceptable answer. But for that, I would imagine serious external pressure to Israel would be needed, similar as the one exerted to the white Afrikaners…
I see. You referred to Poland/Netherlands and Belgium together so I thought it was more likely ww2 that you were referring to.
The extended feud between France and Germany is a good example. Today they are what I think we are is a ‘just and lasting’ peace. This however was precluded by the violence of ww2. Quite far from a peaceful reconciliation although it was quite final (so far).
Over the centuries prior, did other neighbouring nations or further abroad attempt to pressure either (or both) sides to reconcile in a peaceful manner? Did it ever work out?
What I’m getting at here in a rather long winded manner is that the underlying friction between Israel and Palestine (or Hamas or other neighbouring Islamic states) go back very far, and it likely will be only time that will heal this to a lasting reconciliation. External pressures likely will only become counterproductive.
In the meantime, more will suffer. Moreso on the ‘weaker’ side. We can point fingers all we want, but from their frame of reference, our versions of justice are simply incompatible with theirs. To us, their apparent lack of morality is infantile.
Is this some kind of attempt to dispute my right to an opinion? Or an attempt to devalue it? I know nothing about you, but come on. I’m sure you can find better arguments for your positions than thinly veiled ad hominems.
No, it is an attempt (maybe ham fisted, in which case I apologize) to make you reflect on whether you have the cultural middleware to really understand that 50 years of occupation is not “forever”, that longer timelines have existed. It’s a call to examine your assumptions.
Nope, it translated to me to “you don’t come from a background of resistance in your country, your opinions automatically don’t matter as much.”
So now that the misunderstanding is cleared, I call you again to examine your assumptions and blind spots.
And here’s another thought on this: It seems as if quite a lot of arab people (not only the Palestinians) view the mere existence of Israel as an injustice.
Logical conclusion? Obvious…
The existence of Israel in the way it exists now is an injustice.
Hear hear, well said, as a 52 year old, (albeit I’m Lebanese and had my fair share of Israeli wars), it’s been obvious from day 1 Israel has long been practicing blatant apartheid policies in the Gaza strip, and providing IOF support to terrorist settler pogroms in the west bank. The vile entity that is the Israeli government today needs to be torn down and rebuilt to allow for a viable Palestinian state.
I too am taking a side and fuck Israel and the IOF.
Edit: Formatting
Partially incorrect, since the vast majority of Israelis clearly support the actions of their current government and army. Now, this could be due to mass propaganda inside Israel. Quite possible, but the numbers are still way too high. The level of support is higher than it was in Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, where as we now know, propaganda was constant and ubiquitous.
Moreover, it’s one of very few countries on the planet that have never had a significant peaceful period in their history. Pretty much since its establishment in 1948, Israel has been slaughtering people. Admittedly, not all of it is their fault. I don’t blame them for getting invaded literal hours after declaring independence. However, Europe has experienced this in the past as well, and yet, it managed to forge peace lasting longer than its conflicts.
This, and more, points me to a suggestion that Israel does in fact need to be deradicalized. How we’d go about it, if confirmed to be the case, is an entirely different matter.
I actually agree with this and nothing I said is in contradiction with this fact. There are still some Israelis, albeit far too few, who want peace.
You might be surprised that back until around the end of the 80’s, a Palestinian from Gaza could just drive to Tel Aviv to have a coffee with his jewish Israeli friends.
That’s good to know. I’m glad to hear that this was possible at some point.
Though this fact doesn’t really change anything. I wasn’t referring strictly to Palestine. It’s not the only place that Israel has been leveling to the ground, or at least trying to.
This war is about land and imperialist control over the middle east, not religion.
Religion has never been used as anything more than an excuse for pretty much any conflict. It simply can never be a legitimate casus belli.
Religion is social cancer
Israel is an Atheist project
Honestly deradicalizing and demilitarizing Israel WOULD deradicalize Palestine.
Israel put Hamas in power. Israel literally helped Iran deliver funding and weapons to Hamas for decades.
I think you hit the nail on the head exactly. That’s it, the whole affair in one line.
I think Israel is carrying out a genocide and even so my question is: Why not both? Whose responsibility is it, and why uniquely on Israel/Palestine?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tIdCsMufIY
I’m not naive enough to think this is possible, I’d just be happy if world powers and neighboring countries at least stopped feeding the conflict. Oh, look at me, and I just said I wasn’t into naive hopes.
The most certain way to deradicalize the Palestinians is simply to deradicalize and demilitarize the Israeli state and to dismantle its apartheid and occupation edifice.
Sure, one side has 95% of the world’s wealth behind it and the support of the strongest military in history, but yeah both sides are equally responsible and have equal impact on whether the genocide continues…
The video is stupid because Palestinian DNA traces back to the Canaanites whereas Israelis are from Poland.