Norwegian tourist claims he was 'strip searched' before being denied entry to US over JD Vance meme on phone (www.nationalworld.com)
from gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 18:35
https://lemmy.world/post/31930562

Archived at web.archive.org/…/norwegian-tourist-claims-he-was…

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Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 18:42 next collapse

The US is not safe to travel to and you do not have a legitimate reason to travel there now. Keep this in your mind regardless of what reason you think contradicts this. It is not safe.

30p87@feddit.org on 24 Jun 18:49 next collapse

Some people only learn by pain, apparently.

gAlienLifeform@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 18:52 next collapse

I mean, that would have been an accurate description of me at age 21

Bonesince1997@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 20:04 collapse

I don’t know about pain, but the hard way really is the best teacher. People can tell you things until they are blue in the face, you’ll shrug, and when the time comes you may find out what they were talking about. But it will only make sense at that point! Sometimes it can go another way. Sometimes.

P1nkman@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 20:08 next collapse

I have a friend who’s going there this weekend. Landing in Orlando, and will be driving to LA. I told him to be very careful!

TachyonTele@piefed.social on 24 Jun 20:13 next collapse

Orlando to LA? Are they crazy or dumb?

skulblaka@sh.itjust.works on 24 Jun 20:42 next collapse

Flying in from outside the US during this time to then attempt to drive all the way across the South

Both. It’s both. I hope they stay safe. There are like 4 different major threats to a foreigner on that route.

burgerchurgarr@lemmus.org on 24 Jun 23:39 collapse

Just out of curiosity I know it’s a super long drive but are there like places there where it’s not safe? Have never been to the US

skulblaka@sh.itjust.works on 25 Jun 00:07 next collapse

In the South? Yes, definitely.

  1. The Mexico border is down there. This is worrisome, not because of the Mexicans, but because ICE gangs like to hang out near the border to try and catch runners. A lot of them are tied up in northern cities right now kidnapping citizens but I wouldn’t expect them to leave the southern border undefended.

  2. It’s extremely hot as fuck right now. Further south you go the worse it gets. I’m ~600 miles north of Orlando and it was 109F outside today (that’s about 43C) with over 50% humidity. When you pass through my home state of Louisiana you’ll be seeing closer to 115F/80%. With heat that high and humidity content that high heat stroke becomes extremely easy. You’ll be dealing with this from Florida through around maybe Texas where it starts to become a drier heat, with lower humidity, but places like Arizona used to hit 120F/49C before we were all talking about global warming.

  3. Southern Americans (as in, Southerners in the US, not people who live in South America, I know it’s confusing) are not all racist, but uh… you’ll see more who are, than aren’t. If you’re any shade of brown you’re going to have a rough time. If you speak with a “funny” accent you’re going to have a rough time. Armed racists populate huge swathes of the southern and midwestern US. This is statistically more likely to be just upsetting rather than directly harmful in most situations, but I wouldn’t want to roll those dice, it’s still very possible to find people who would just abduct and kill a foreigner they don’t like.

Currently speaking, your biggest problems in the American South right now as a foreign tourist are going to be local racism and ICE. The local racism has been around forever and is mostly tolerable if you don’t take offense easily, but you can probably expect to be called some slurs right to your face in more than a few small towns. ICE is a newer and probably bigger problem at the moment. They have orders from the president to capture and deport more people than they will possibly be able to accomplish, so anyone who looks or sounds foreign and doesn’t have three forms of ID on them to prove citizenship is increasingly likely to get bagged, tagged, and dragged to a blacksite somewhere. I’m not confident that a tourist visa (or even a work visa) is going to stop them, it’s already been proven that actual valid citizenship doesn’t stop them.

MonkeMischief@lemmy.today on 25 Jun 00:20 collapse

In general I think they’re mostly referring to the fact that the U.S is ridiculously BIG. Like, most visitors freak out at how long you can drive through almost nothing here, when going between major population areas.

Driving through wilderness without a lot of extra water and a cellular connection, and maybe a spare tire, for example, is foolhardy.

Along the way, especially in “The South”, you’ll find the loveliest, kindest people, but you’ll also find various, (probably politically motivated, lately) sadists/racists/bullies, some of which may be small-town law enforcement looking for excitement.

The law can be more “flexible” without major oversight in such places, and with the cult of the orange tyrant emboldening the prejudiced lately, that could spell trouble.

There’s also various kinds of unsavory types as you’d find in any other country; I’m talking criminals, swindlers, and various weirdos of ill intent, and some stretches of the country are remote. Like, “no signal and it goes on and on in all directions until you see the earth curve” remote.

The vast majority of people are lovely, and would probably welcome and appreciate foreigners, the worst you’d deal with is getting a migraine from stupid but friendly questions about your accent or where you’re from.

But like anywhere else, you need your wits about you.

In short:

Lovely place where many sights and adventures can be had! The biggest dangers are the roads and wilderness, basically.

  • Don’t mess with wildlife.
  • Don’t go off exploring remote areas in which you have no business
  • Don’t underestimate the wilderness and go unprepared.
  • Practice the same street smarts as you would anywhere else, like don’t go getting into strangers’ cars or accepting random open beverages.

Setting aside the anomalous political tensions right now, the biggest danger to travelers to this country is seeing it as a big theme park where they can’t possibly put themselves in any danger. Your average park rangers have plenty of horror stories about that, I’m sure, like idiots trying to selfie in front of buffalo or stand on the edge of the Grand Canyon, or falling into Yellowstone’s tranquil but literally boiling hot springs…

Don’t be that tragic idiot . . .and you’ll likely have a fantastic time.

Hope this helps. :)

burgerchurgarr@lemmus.org on 25 Jun 01:03 collapse

Thanks a lot, this is super helpful actually! Couldn’t imagine driving through areas for hours without reception or any signs of civilization, sounds kinda exciting and scary at the same time. Will definitely keep this saved

P1nkman@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 09:13 collapse

Yes.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 20:27 collapse

I wish your friend safety in their travels!

MonkeMischief@lemmy.today on 25 Jun 00:26 collapse

I wish your friend safety in their travels!

Lol what degree of douchebag would downvote your comment, holy cow LOL.

I sincerely commend the positivity and kindness you’ve been bringing to this thread with warmly inviting people to flee to Canada.

Edit: Although maybe you’re being a bit harsh further down. :( It doesn’t have to be so personal? People are just discussing stuff. Let’s not let the decisions of stupid men in power deter us from productive discussion.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 01:30 collapse

I’m a Christian Anarchist myself…

Yeah… Nah…

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 24 Jun 20:20 next collapse

you do not have a legitimate reason to travel there now.

My parents live here 💀

I live here 💀💀

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 20:24 next collapse

The key word is “travel” thus excluding you and your family from the warning. Now go fix your shit instead of crying to someone who cannot.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 24 Jun 20:41 collapse

But if I leave the country for any reason I have to come back. So then I have to travel into the country.

Also that’s kind of an aggressive response for what I meant to be kind of a jokey comment?

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 20:45 collapse

But if I leave the country for any reason I have to come back.

You don’t, and that has nothing to do with traveling to the US from another country, so that is why you get the “aggressive” response because I am tired of Americans chiming in with “Jokes” when their country is a fucking hell hole that is impacting everyone else.

Leave, fix your shit, or stop crying to people negatively impacted by your people without adding anything meaningful to the conversation.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 24 Jun 21:08 next collapse

I am tired of Americans chiming in with “Jokes” when their country is a fucking hell hole that is impacting everyone else.

Go through my post history. I’m literally an anarchist. I literally hate America and I literally want to abolish it. I am perfectly aware of how disgusting American influence is on the world—that’s why I’m making jokes about it. Joking about it is how some people cope with the crushing reality of capitalism. And honestly I thought these two comments were kinda tame.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 21:10 collapse

You literally aren’t an Anarchist because you are literally living under the boot of a dictatorship. You likely wouldn’t survive an anarchist society, but you will grow out of that idea eventually I am sure.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 24 Jun 21:24 collapse

You literally aren’t an Anarchist because you are literally living under the boot of a dictatorship.

No that’s not how it works. Anarchists are people who advocate for the abolition of all authorities and hierarchies, including but not limited to the State, capitalism, xenophobia, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc. You don’t have to currently live in an anarchist society to be an anarchist.

You likely wouldn’t survive an anarchist society, but you will grow out of that idea eventually I am sure.

Well no I wouldn’t survive because everyone dies 😆. But I wouldn’t advocate for anarchism if I thought I was going to have a bad time.

But I want to gently push back against the “Mad Max” notion of “anarchy” that I think you’re working with. Most forms of anarchism actually call for people to work together, to form groups to get stuff done but without the violence inherent in the State and the inequalities of capitalism that States inevitably reinforce.

For more information, see Section A.1 of the Anarchist FAQ.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 22:44 next collapse

No that’s not how it works. Anarchists are people who advocate for the abolition of all authorities and hierarchies, including but not limited to the State, capitalism, xenophobia, racism, sexism, transphobia, etc. You don’t have to currently live in an anarchist society to be an anarchist.

I know what Anarchists are, which is why I said one day you will grow out of it. As long as you abide by the laws and systems of the things you “advocate against” you are nothing more than a hypocrite like all other Anarchists.

Well no I wouldn’t survive because everyone dies 😆. But I wouldn’t advocate for anarchism if I thought I was going to have a bad time.

You are advocating for something that wouldn’t last, and would be a bad time for most involved. The idea of Anarchy may sound cool to you, but if you bring it to its logical conclusion it fails immediately. There is a reason why Anarchy didn’t embed itself as the default after we started forming larger and larger groups.

But I want to gently push back against the “Mad Max” notion of “anarchy” that I think you’re working with. Most forms of anarchism actually call for people to work together, to form groups to get stuff done but without the violence inherent in the State and the inequalities of capitalism that States inevitably reinforce.

Whatever idea of Anarchy that you are working with is misinformed. The state formed as a product of people grouping up and requiring structures and rules for everyone to coexist as peacefully as possible. If your idea of Anarchy is “Everyone works together to get stuff done without violence inherent in the state and the inequalities of capitalism” we have a name for that and it is called “Socialism”.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 24 Jun 23:20 collapse

I know what Anarchists are, which is why I said one day you will grow out of it.

No I won’t lmao. Been going strong for ~15 years, and the older I get and the more I learn about the world and the more I experience life, the more I believe that anarchism is the best framework for analyzing and synthesizing a society that’s good for everyone.

As long as you abide by the laws and systems of the things you “advocate against” you are nothing more than a hypocrite like all other Anarchists.

By that logic, I should start murdering and killing random civilians because it’s in opposition to the law. Of course not! Not literally all laws are completely wrong. But I 1000% do not give a fuck about the letter of the law for the things I actually want to do.

If your idea of Anarchy is “Everyone works together to get stuff done without violence inherent in the state and the inequalities of capitalism” we have a name for that and it is called “Socialism”.

Yes exactly, that’s why some people use the term libertarian socialism to describe anarchism and its relatives! (Notice the little “l”; I obviously condemn the “Libertarian” Party and right-wing “Libertarians”.) I will happily identify as a socialist, but “anarchist” is a bit more precise.

The rest of your talking points are directly answered in the Anarchist FAQ previously linked, and they did a much better job than I possibly could.

But let’s get back to where we started. I am no fan of America even though I live here. As an anarchist, I am painfully aware of and vocal about how evil an entity America is. You don’t need to be an anarchist to come to that conclusion, but I brought it up only because it’s sufficient to come to the conclusion that America is evil (if not necessary). But more importantly: just because I live in America does not mean I have no right to vent.

And I would be a lot more quiet if you were from Palestine or Iran or one of the various countries America has bombed into the stone age, or even from the inner city or one of the reservations inside the US. I could absolutely sympathize with them being rude to me. I’d agree with them and take it. I’m an anarchist, and I’m accustomed to reading material written with a confrontational tone; half our modern anarchist literature is just people yelling at the reader 😆.

But you’re from Canada. Canada is just as complicit as the United States in the vast majority of the suffering we inflict on the world. And y’all are just as shitty to your indigenous population as we are.

And I’ve been noticing a distinctly…pro-Canada stance in your recent comment history…

If Americans have nothing to be proud of …WHICH WE DO NOT… AMERICANS HAVE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF …then Canadians have almost nothing to be proud of. Yeah your healthcare system and social services are slightly less shit for white people, but Canada is still a settler-colonialist, capitalist, racist project that needs to be abolished.

Like if I should feel bad for living in America, then by taking your logic to its logical conclusion YOU should be ashamed about living in Canada.

Which you shouldn’t. You were born there or were brought there. It’s not your fault.

And to be completely clear: I reject national pride overall. National pride is for people who have nothing real to be proud of.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 23:50 collapse

By that logic, I should start murdering and killing random civilians because it’s in opposition to the law. Of course not! Not literally all laws are completely wrong. But I 1000% do not give a fuck about the letter of the law for the things I actually want to do.

By that logic, you aren’t the only person in the world and a not so small amount of people are all about that life.

And I would be a lot more quiet if you were from Palestine or Iran or one of the various countries America has bombed into the stone age, or even from the inner city or one of the reservations inside the US. I could absolutely sympathize with them being rude to me. I’d agree with them and take it. I’m an anarchist, and I’m accustomed to reading material written with a confrontational tone; half our modern anarchist literature is just people yelling at the reader

A racist Anarchist? Well I never!

But you’re from Canada. Canada is just as complicit as the United States in the vast majority of the suffering we inflict on the world. And y’all are just as shitty to your indigenous population as we are.

And I’ve been noticing a distinctly…pro-Canada stance in your recent comment history…

Canada has much to be ashamed of, and much more to be proud of. We most certainly do not treat our Indigenous population like you do. We also do a lot of good around the world. There is a reason why we have so many allies.

I am not ashamed to be Canadian, and I am proud to be Canadian. I am also proud of being Greek. Regardless of the history of both.

If Americans have nothing to be proud of …WHICH WE DO NOT… AMERICANS HAVE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF …then Canadians have almost nothing to be proud of. Yeah your healthcare system and social services are slightly less shit for white people, but Canada is still a settler-colonialist, capitalist, racist project that needs to be abolished.

We have much to be proud of in Canada. Feel free to explain how one “abolishes” a country full of people born and raised here from all over the world.

Like if I should feel bad for living in America, then by taking your logic to its logical conclusion YOU should be ashamed about living in Canada.

Which you shouldn’t. You were born there or were brought there. It’s not your fault.

I choose to live here because I like my country. I am proud of that choice. Just like you choose to live in the US and play pretend freedom fighter.

And to be completely clear: I reject national pride overall. National pride is for people who have nothing real to be proud of.

To be completely clear: Obviously, “Anarchist”. That is exactly what people say when they have nothing to be proud of in their country.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 01:06 collapse

By that logic, you aren’t the only person in the world and a not so small amount of people are all about that life.

…you seriously think a lot of people are interested in murdering random people? That it’s the existence of the State that keeps people from just being serial killers? Nah.

If the numberless facts which can be brought forward to support this view are taken into account, we may safely say that mutual aid is as much a law of animal life as mutual struggle, but that, as a factor of evolution, it most probably has a far greater importance, inasmuch as it favours the development of such habits and characters as insure the maintenance and further development of the species, together with the greatest amount of welfare and enjoyment of life for the individual, with the least waste of energy.

Peter Kropotkin, Mutual Aid; A Factor of Evolution

I.e. sure you’re going to get some serial killers and anarchist societies will have to account for them, but the vast majority of people are good enough.

A racist Anarchist? Well I never!

What are you smoking and can I have some?!?

Acknowledging the very real reality that people from Iran and Palestine are more likely to be in a rough state of mind because they’re currently being fucking bombed into oblivion is not fucking racism. Similarly, people living in the inner city or on reservations who are constantly being kicked in the teeth by the system at every step of their lives might are more likely to be in a rough state of mind than I am in my relatively privileged position.

Acknowledging my privilege relative to them is not fucking racist.

We have much to be proud of in Canada.

<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.sdf.org/pictrs/image/09f310fe-ff7f-49aa-808a-eb23857e5f68.png">

Yo my sister lived in Canada for several years. She has indigenous descent and she faced so much fucking racism for even looking First Nations.

Feel free to explain how one “abolishes” a country full of people born and raised here from all over the world.

Abolish the State through a diversity of tactics including peaceful protest, nonviolent and violent direct action, and mass mobilization. Convince people (like you) to also break their mental chains (like attachment to your nation). Establish alternative, prefigurative systems in opposition to hierarchy and domination with built-in safeguards to ensure consent of the community these systems serve.

I am not ashamed to be Canadian, and I am proud to be Canadian.

Okay the only people who should be ashamed of their country are people who are currently proud of it. If you need to feel shame to break this chain then please do.

Regardless of the history of both.

Really? Because… that’s kinda important!

We also do a lot of good around the world.

No Canada does not. Canada is in lockstep with America, providing material support for the War on Terror and complicity in the Gaza Genocide, just to name a few.

There is a reason why we have so many allies.

Because Canada is in lockstep with America and the Canadian government has competent diplomats. Also… America has a lot of allies! That’s not a good measure of how beneficial a country is to the world.

I choose to live here because I like my country. I am proud of that choice. Just like you choose to live in the US and play pretend freedom fighter.

Lol I absolutely do not pretend to be a freedom fighter because I’m too tired to fight. But I’d rather be a hypocrite than completely wrong.

And no, I absolutely do not choose to live here. If I left the United States for another country, I would blow through the couple hundred bucks in my bank account (which I don’t even think I can access abroad? My bank will lock my card if I start using it across the country, let alone the world) because I wouldn’t be allowed to get work, then get my ass deported back to the US. At least in the US I have people I can ask for money, and I can get work. Crucially… I’m not gonna dox myself, but I’m working to get the credentials to be able to get the fuck out of here and into almost any country in a way that is sustainable.

To be completely clear: Obviously, “Anarchist”. That is exactly what people say when they have nothing to be proud of in their country.

No lol. Americans are unfortunately super proud of their country. Patriotism gets more fashionable as t

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 01:28 collapse

You are ignorant, bigoted, and not worth further time. Give your head a shake.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 01:30 next collapse

Yeah because being anti-nationalist is so bigoted /d

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 01:35 collapse

Like seriously I’d like to know so I don’t repeat it: which part of any of my replies is bigoted?

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 03:09 collapse

2 comments 6 minutes apart on the same comment. Thirsty much?

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 03:16 collapse

Yeah I actually am thirsty to know what specifically made you think I’m bigoted. We can agree to disagree about everything else but being called a bigot is pretty serious 😳

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 15:01 collapse

A bigot is a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes others based on their beliefs, race, or religion, often refusing to accept different ideas or groups. This term is commonly used to describe someone who holds prejudiced views.

Now that you know what the word means, try some self reflection.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 16:25 collapse

Yeah and I haven’t done any of those things. I made a pretty clear distinction between the subjects under a government and the government itself, i.e. people who live in Canada/America/wherever vs the Canadian/America/wherever government.

If hating the Canadian government is bigotry then bigotry is a toothless concept that needs to be dispensed with…but obviously, hating the Canadian government is not bigotry. It’s an emotional continuation of a principled objection to all nations rooted in the anarchist tradition of anti-nationalist libertarian socialism. Hating the cultural institutions invented by the Canadian government isn’t bigotry either. Again, it is an emotional continuation of a principled objection to nationalism, in particular the cultural assimilation

Actually, my argument is closer to “it is bigotry NOT to reject national governments and their cultural assimilation.” Because these national governments assimilate whatever cultures they can distill into something acceptable for capitalism, and brutally destroy anyone who can’t or won’t be assimilated. THAT is bigotry.


Like there’s this distinct sense that you came into this conversation to dunk on “dumb Americans” for being a “big dumb patriot in dumb USA why don’t you just leave” and you didn’t expect to be dealing to someone to your left because literally everyone in America is a conservative no exceptions allowed and literally no one is paying attention. Pay no mind to the LA anti-ICE protests and even the shitlib-controlled No Kings protests where about 1% of the population turned up (which is actually huge for protests!).

And since you’re usually dunking on Americans, who often are actual bigots, as a Canadian in a marginally less shit society, your brain goes “Yeah this dude is American so he must be a bigot, call him a bigot, that’ll show him.”

You aren’t debating me. You’re dunking on this abstract idea of a generic American but writing it in prose with the length and cadence of a serious debate.

And to be clear: I love dunking on my fellow Americans. I really do. We need to be put in our fucking place from time to time…all the fucking time really.

What I don’t appreciate is debating under false pretenses. It was really that first remark about racism where I knew what this conversation was: you were debating the generic American, not me, because it’s obvious to anyone with a pulse that I had said nothing even remotely racist or controversial in the snippet you quoted.

Like you have every right to be mad at America and Americans but maybe don’t dunk on Americans when they’re trying to express their disdain for the things you claim to be against. Like I 1000% support an America boycott, not coming to America, not working with Americans, fuck us and fuck all our shit, but you gotta understand that 100% purely perfect boycotting of America is not possible for people who were born here. It’s not even a remotely controversial position. To deny this is to deny material reality.

People accuse anarchists of black and white thinking but it’s you who’s thinking in black and white, specifically that it is easy for all Americans to leave America and that anymore who doesn’t leave wants to be here and agrees with all or even any of the oppression that the US government has planned for the world.


And usually I don’t keep hammering people like this but…come on…I know you’re a debate lord. You’re usually on the other side of this interaction…so it’s a chance to understand how it feels to be on the other side. (And also maybe I have important shit to do that I’m too anxious to do right now 😆.)

And you started all this over an extremely tame joke which, while literally going against the literal text of your first comment, clearly does not show support for the American empire or even diminish the correct anti-American critique you started with. I even gave you an out in the second comment where you could have said nothing or been like “well maybe I was a bit harsh”.

All of this say: even if you were right, you’re kind of being a jerk in your comment history. Not just to me, but to basically everyone you’ve interacted with lately. Not saying you are a jerk because I don’t know you, but you’re being a jerk. And if I wasn’t such an insufferable jerk myself, I would have probably just told you that directly and moved on with my life. Game recognizes game 😆.

Yeah I have lotsa bullshit to reflect on because I’m an extremely flawed human. Again, my post/comment history proves I have a lot of shit to work on, and I don’t pretend otherwise. Now you know that you do too.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 18:13 collapse

Yeah and I haven’t done any of those things. I made a pretty clear distinction between the subjects under a government and the government itself, i.e. people who live in Canada/America/wherever vs the Canadian/America/wherever government.

You are making broad assumptions about the entire country of people which happens to be full of “Canadians” from different cultures. You assume anyone who isn’t from a country attacked by the US (Which Canada currently is) does not get a say in the matter, and include everyone who isn’t Indigenous or “Living in the inner city”. (Racist, as I know who you are referencing here. Note: Many people from different backgrounds live in the “inner city” with many different experiences regardless of cultural origin.)

You ignore the fact that I am also from a visible minority group and lump me in with a group you know nothing about knowing nothing about me.

If hating the Canadian government is bigotry then bigotry is a toothless concept that needs to be dispensed with…but obviously, hating the Canadian government is not bigotry. It’s an emotional continuation of a principled objection to all nations rooted in the anarchist tradition of anti-nationalist libertarian socialism. Hating the cultural institutions invented by the Canadian government isn’t bigotry either. Again, it is an emotional continuation of a principled objection to nationalism, in particular the cultural assimilation

How do you feel about Indigenous Government structures?

You also aren’t “hating on the Government” alone. You act as though Canada and Canadians don’t have a unique culture and should be shamed for being proud of it. Yet you seem to think that people under other Governments, with other cultures, get more of a say in any conversation and should be proud of their cultures.

My people conquered and were conquered. We now have our own country after gaining independence from the Ottoman empire. Should my ancestral homeland be abolished?

Actually, my argument is closer to “it is bigotry NOT to reject national governments and their cultural assimilation.” Because these national governments assimilate whatever cultures they can distill into something acceptable for capitalism, and brutally destroy anyone who can’t or won’t be assimilated. THAT is bigotry.

In Canada we celebrate cultural days from all over the world. We have diasporas from all over the world. Everyone of them is as Canadian as the next, and we celebrate our cultural differences here.

Stop projecting your countries behavior on mine.

Like there’s this distinct sense that you came into this conversation to dunk on “dumb Americans” for being a “big dumb patriot in dumb USA why don’t you just leave” and you didn’t expect to be dealing to someone to your left because literally everyone in America is a conservative no exceptions allowed and literally no one is paying attention. Pay no mind to the LA anti-ICE protests and even the shitlib-controlled No Kings protests where about 1% of the population turned up (which is actually huge for protests!).

Nope. I came into this thread specifically to share a warning about your country.

Considering you are too lazy to scroll up:

The US is not safe to travel to and you do not have a legitimate reason to travel there now. Keep this in your mind regardless of what reason you think contradicts this. It is not safe.

It also doesn’t matter if you are left or right because “dumb Americans” make up about 75% of your countries population. (21% are clinically illiterate, while a staggering 54% read at or below a 6th grade level making them functionally illiterate)

This leads to a massive problem when both sides of your political spectrum are clinically or functionally illiterate and unable to understand their own points.

And since you’re usually dunking on Americans, who often are actual bigots, as a Canadian in a marginally less shit society, your brain goes “Yeah this dude is American so he must be a bigot, call him a bigot, that’ll show him.”

I call a bigot when I see a bigot. I too have bigoted views that I accept and work to operate against. When you are being bigoted you will be called out for it. This includes bigotry towards people of European decent.

You aren’t debating me. You’re dunking on this abstract idea of a generic American but writing it in prose with the length and cadence of a serious debate.

I am not debating you, and it isn’t because of an abstract generic idea. It is 100% because you don’t have a real argument, and are being a bigot.

And to be clear: I love dunking on my fellow Americans.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 20:58 collapse

You are making broad assumptions about the entire country of people which happens to be full of “Canadians” from different cultures.

Almost. I am making broad assumptions about people who positively identify with Canada because these are assumptions that, by identifying with and defending Canada’s legacy, you self-associate yourself with. Obviously Canada is a diverse place. Canada even has anarchist federations! But when you choose to identify with the culture of the oppressor, I can freely use the assumptions, which that culture has spent so much time, money, and blood forcing to be the reality, about you.

You assume anyone who isn’t from a country attacked by the US (Which Canada currently is)

Canada is not being attacked by the US. Yeah they’re tariffing goods coming out of your country and they’re harassing and detained Canadians at the border, but you aren’t being militarily attacked.

does not get a say in the matter, …

No I’m not weighting whether or not you get a say at all, I’m weighting the amount of patience I give people for saying things that are incorrect, bigoted, or wrong in any way. And it’s not strictly being bombed by the US that’s the condition: it’s the person’s material circumstances, what kind of danger they’re in, mental state.

It’s not even remotely unreasonable to be more patient with people who are going through hard times or are in distress.

and include everyone who isn’t Indigenous or “Living in the inner city”. (Racist, as I know who you are referencing here. Note: Many people from different backgrounds live in the “inner city” with many different experiences regardless of cultural origin.)

The wording I used was “even on the reservations or in the inner city” about people who I would have more patience with based on their location and material circumstances. Of course race is a huge part of that! And it’s not racist to acknowledge that! But it’s not the only part. For example, there are some black and brown people raised in suburban areas who are quite well off and adopt similar positions to the capitalist monoculture. For these people, I would have a lower patience compared to black and brown people living in the inner city or out in the country who are statistically more likely to be fighting harder than me against the system to survive. Similarly, there are a minority of white people raised in the inner city for whom I would have a higher patience than white people living in the suburbs, because even though white people have not faced a history of race-based discrimination, some white people continue to experience discrimination for their class, gender, sexuality, sometimes even their ethnicity (example: Irish, Italians, Jews).

Acknowledging the reality that people of different races are treated differently and thus are dealing with different circumstances is not racism! It’s anti-racism! Get with the program!

Furthermore, inner cities in particular are marred by police violence and structural oppression. Some of that oppression is experienced invariantly with respect to race by anyone living in the inner city.

Like I was very clearly referring to people living in these locations, and I wanted to encode the subtlety that living in these locations can actually be to your detriment.

You ignore the fact that I am also from a visible minority group and lump me in with a group you know nothing about knowing nothing about me.

Canadians are not a minority in Canada. I actually don’t know about if you are from any other minority groups. I didn’t really get that far in your profile.

How do you feel about Indigenous Government structures?

No one is free until we’re all free. I am a settler and I’m not an expert on Indigenous governing structures, which is admittedly a blind spot. Otherwise, I defer to Indigenous voices about Indigenous issues. For an Indigenous anarchist perspective, see the “Indigenous Sovereignty” section of the following article for a much more subtle discussion about the topic than I could possibly give right now. Yes, even anarchists have problems with settler colonialism, myself included despite my best efforts.

journals.uvic.ca/index.php/adcs/article/…/8928/

Alternatively, if you have some reading material about Indigenous sovereignty I’d love to check it out. Anecdotally, I have noticed the rise of a very careful Indigenous Anarchist current since the resistance to the Dakota Access Pipeline gained traction.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 20:59 collapse

Not one word of this is true.

Come on. I know a debate lord when I see one. Game recognizes game. The problem with being a debate lord is that there’s always a bigger debate lord than you 😈.

Maybe don’t make jokes

Socialism is when no jokes /s

…under a warning about peoples safety as a person who is partly responsible for aforementioned lack of safety.

Oh my fucking God no I am not partly responsible for the lack of safety that the US government imposes on its citizens. The US GOVERNMENT is causally responsible, and the fault lies with the people who run the system and the capitalists who are responsible for it. The State imposes this reality on me and almost everyone else here. We NEVER had a democracy, even de jure! The United States is a “democratic” republic! And every step of the way, I have expressed my disgust for this evil country and its trajectory!

Please if you take home only one message, it is this: States IMPOSE their will upon the working class.

And again, what I said did not even go against your warning. It didn’t even diminish the engagement your warning got. It probably got a few people more people to read it because there was an actual discussion below it.

And if you thought what I said was insensitive, you could have clearly stated so. But again… this is my reality too, that I’m fucking stuck in this sick fucking hellhole. I feel like I have a right to make jokes at my own expense.

The delivery of information doesn’t change whether it is correct or not.

Right, that’s why I put it in a separate part of the comment separated by a line. But also… that’s not how humans operate? If you want people to listen to you, in general you can’t be a jerk about it. That’s something you’ll learn as you unlearn debate lord habits.

I have not been a jerk to basically everyone who I have interacted with, but I would love to see you waste your time by providing a chart that demonstrates me being an unwarranted jerk to the majority of people over 1.23k comments and 20 posts.

I mean “being a jerk” is an opinion, so it’s not something you can really do reliable mathematics about, i.e. a chart would be equivalent to what I have already given you in text form. A chart actually would have been faster to make, i.e. it would be less of a waste of time.

More precisely: you’ve been being a jerk to people on Lemmy with the account I’m replying to. I don’t think you’re necessarily a jerk anywhere else. This isn’t a personal attack. I’m commenting on your behavior.

This shouldn’t be too hard since you are already balls deep in my account. I expect it by the end of the week or your fired.

Nah I’m not that deep in your profile lol, and I’m not even good at reading people. Just a week or two to get a sense of where you’re coming from.

I also clearly stated why I proceeded the way I did.

I agree to disagree.

You didn’t have to keep going but you did.

Yup. I’m not a debate lord. I’m a debate monster 👹.

I am responsible for my end, and you yours. It is on you just as much as me that we are here.

Hell yeah I’m riding this train wherever it goes 🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃. Edit: Actually I’m not gonna respond to any responses to the previous two responses because I’ve made my points and the rational side of me is realizing that this is getting a bit excessive. Not that I can’t, but because I’m seeing myself get back into those debate lord behaviors I loathe so much.

So genuinely: beyond this point, I can agree to disagree with you, I apologize for not dropping it earlier, and have a nice rest of your week.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 23:24 collapse

Honestly, the fact that you are trying to pretend I didn’t tell you my background in an attempt to prove whatever point you are trying to make about me is humourous.

Enjoy the last word, and I highly recommend you educate yourself on my country before ever talking shit again.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 26 Jun 01:34 collapse

Honestly, the fact that you are trying to pretend I didn’t tell you my background in an attempt to prove whatever point you are trying to make about me is humourous.

You told me that you’re Greek-Canadian, right? I genuinely forgot that you told me, sorry. Being Greek didn’t register in my 💩 brain as a visible minority group, but it absolutely is. I was also leaving open the possiblity of belonging to any other minority identities you hadn’t previously talked about without assuming cisheteronormative “defaults”.

whatever point you are trying to make about me is humourous

I wanted to move on with the discussion as if you could have been, but did not definitively tell me, that you were from a group which is a minority in Canada. Which you did and I acknowledge that now, and I simply forgot.

I stand by the rest of what I said. I’m gonna leave it here because this is already verging on unhealthy.

MonkeMischief@lemmy.today on 25 Jun 00:40 collapse

I like the way you explain your Anarchist stances. I’m a Christian Anarchist myself, and see anarchism as a society in a similar light as personally trying to be like Jesus: It may be a state of perfection we, in our imperfections, cannot attain, but if everyone was trying their best towards a cooperative society free of authoritarian hierarchal peepee-swinging, maybe things would be much better overall.

Daring to believe in a better world and exert whatever influence we have to do so, takes a strong inner fire, and a lot of people miss the point when they think we just wanna tear it all down without a plan and start from scratch next week and it would all be unicorns and rainbows overnight.

PM_ME_VINTAGE_30S@lemmy.sdf.org on 25 Jun 01:11 collapse

I like the way you explain your Anarchist stances.

Thank you. I try my best. God bless.

OrteilGenou@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 21:30 collapse

I like popsicles

slaneesh_is_right@lemmy.org on 25 Jun 10:59 collapse

Damn. So sorry.

SARGE@startrek.website on 24 Jun 20:23 collapse

As an American, seconded.

I’m trapped here, don’t YOU risk being kidnapped and trapped here or sent somewhere worse just because you wanted to see the Grand Canyon.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 20:26 next collapse

I am honestly wondering how long it will be before you are eligible for refugee claims in the world with the state of affairs in your country. You aren’t trapped though! Come to Canada! We have a bunch of issues now, but it will be a breathe of fresh air compared to the issues you face.

pepperjohnson@lemm.ee on 24 Jun 20:35 next collapse

Of only it was that simple

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 20:47 collapse

Why isn’t it that simple? People leave their countries for a better life everyday. If the situation is as bad as claimed I can see no reason why regardless of complexity it isn’t the option chosen.

S0me0neNew@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 11:37 next collapse

Lack of financials, knowledge, and support? “If the situation is as bad as claimed” is crazy tbh.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 14:52 collapse

That sounds a lot like the conditions for people who leave other countries for a better life.

RedPostItNote@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 15:38 collapse

Americans are not used to being in this position and are freezing in place. They tell themselves it’s “to fight” and to reclaim the country, but they ignore the reality that this could be a bleak path for ostensibly decades upon decades.

The lesson of 1933 is you get out. But lots of Americans won’t because they have never liked history or valued it.

SelfHigh5@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 15:06 next collapse

You see, her CDs are in his truck.

vpz@infosec.pub on 25 Jun 16:27 collapse

It isn’t simple. Most people I know who have moved to other countries hired an immigration attorney to help. It’s not cheap. Also, you can’t just show up in Canada and get a job. There is a legal process that must be followed. If you don’t have employment with a work visa ahead of time, you have to show proof you have the savings to live without working until you find a job to enter the country to look for work there. Many people don’t have months of expenses in an emergency account to lean on. Lots of impediments.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 25 Jun 17:34 collapse

It isn’t simple. Most people I know who have moved to other countries hired an immigration attorney to help. It’s not cheap. Also, you can’t just show up in Canada and get a job. There is a legal process that must be followed. If you don’t have employment with a work visa ahead of time, you have to show proof you have the savings to live without working until you find a job to enter the country to look for work there. Many people don’t have months of expenses in an emergency account to lean on. Lots of impediments.

Do you think any of this should matter to someone who needs to flee a country for their safety? Do you know how many people need to do such things on a regular basis? Why do you believe Americans are different?

ohshit604@sh.itjust.works on 24 Jun 21:23 collapse

You aren’t trapped though! Come to Canada!

And this is how we achieved a population greater than what our housing can support. Unless you’re ready to fork over 1200-2k a month for a 1 bedroom & 1 bathroom then I would advise against this.

Arkouda@lemmy.ca on 24 Jun 22:46 next collapse

You should take a peak on what people in the US have to deal with before you go shitting on Canada.

That also isn’t how we got into a housing crisis. That was because the Government stopped building houses, and turned real estate into the monster of an investment vehicle it is today.

CII_RX@lemm.ee on 25 Jun 02:42 next collapse

People are already forking over that kind of money in the US, and have been for years.

HeyThisIsntTheYMCA@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 07:00 next collapse

ooo, ten years ago prices

clutchtwopointzero@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 02:19 collapse

you can support. it’s just your politicians holding back the access to land for new development to satisfy some voters and backers that make a lot of money through property price increases. if there was really any will to solve the problem politicians would have relaxed land use regulations

KumaSudosa@feddit.dk on 26 Jun 05:00 collapse

Do they really want me to be trapped? 😮 might go to El Salvador, but trapped?

I’m brown with a thick beard, so I’m used to being “naturally suspicious and prone to explosion” whenever I am within a 5 km distance of an airport. Yet US airports would scare the shit out of me

SARGE@startrek.website on 26 Jun 12:35 next collapse

Well yeah, if you’re trapped in one of our many prisons, you get to look forward to slave labor! Slavery is perfectly legal and constitutional, as per the 13th amendment.

MaDMaX99@lemmy.zip on 26 Jun 17:45 collapse

Brown like south Italians?

KumaSudosa@feddit.dk on 26 Jun 18:06 collapse

Definitely seen south Italians darker than me 😂 but coupled with “exotic looks” and the ability to actually tan it’s definitely plenty to produce the “terrorist look” and stand out in Scandinavia

A_norny_mousse@feddit.org on 24 Jun 19:06 next collapse

Well I for one find this claim entirely credible (unfortunately).

Also, more JD Vance memes! Yay Streisand effect!

BlueLineBae@midwest.social on 24 Jun 19:20 next collapse

JD Vance only eats the cat food part of lucky charms pass it on.

A_norny_mousse@feddit.org on 24 Jun 19:22 next collapse

I heard he puts his cast iron skillet in the dishwasher.

Darkard@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 19:56 collapse

I heard he took the lightbulb out of his fridge because he doesn’t believe it turns off when he closes the door.

theherk@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 05:16 collapse

So Cheerios?

Akasazh@feddit.nl on 24 Jun 21:21 collapse

I’m on a campaign to only use the name he got from the idot that spwned him: James Donald Bowman.

Ofc he’s now simping for another asshole called Donald.

falcunculus@jlai.lu on 24 Jun 22:03 collapse

I don’t understand this, why not call him the way he wants to be called ? He’s despicable but his name isn’t the problem, I don’t see how calling him Bowman (or calling Donald “Drumpf”) is making any progress.

And it kind of undermines the discourse that we should respect people’s choice as to how they define themselves.

Akasazh@feddit.nl on 25 Jun 01:05 next collapse

And it kind of undermines the discourse that we should respect people’s choice as to how they define themselves.

I do respect peoples choice, but in this case I make an exception. It’s him who denies people the right of identifying as themselves. He’s a homo-and transphobe who supports the notion that people should identify as they are born, and thus I comply. Once he changes his tune in that regard I will respect his.

It’s not like calling Trump Drumpf, Bowmans’ mother changed his name and after that he changed his own to not be reminded of the identity he was born with. I use his deadname to spite him on purpose.

A_norny_mousse@feddit.org on 25 Jun 09:41 collapse

BTW, the Trump family changed their name before they even came to America, unfortunately - it was such a good story. I still like to call him that from time to time, but also Mango Mussolini, Orange Baby or just mad megalomaniac.

And without him and his ilk we wouldn’t even have a “discourse that we should respect people’s choice as to how they define themselves” because that would just be the norm, no need to “discourse” about it.

dan1101@lemmy.world on 24 Jun 19:09 next collapse

So are they also going to detain and strip search the owners of any website hosting similar images? Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg.

henfredemars@infosec.pub on 24 Jun 20:18 collapse

No, billionaires are above the law.

cyrano@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 24 Jun 19:14 next collapse

Plot twist, the guy is a memer and did that on purpose to make his meme go viral. That can only be the reason

6nk06@sh.itjust.works on 24 Jun 20:17 collapse

According to my very scientific study for the past 20 years, half of the adults with a driving license don’t know how to drive a car and would kill someone to get 5 minutes earlier to their jobs. Half the adults in this world is a fucking moron (a few billion people), that’s my explanation.

dinren@discuss.online on 24 Jun 19:40 next collapse

So what is the process for this phone search? Anyone been through it?

Edit:

“They threatened me with a minimum fine of $5,000 or five years in prison if I refused to provide the password to my phone.”

A_norny_mousse@feddit.org on 24 Jun 20:02 next collapse

“They threatened me with a minimum fine of $5,000 or five years in prison if I refused to provide the password to my phone.”

Jesus Christ. Reminds me of Eastern Europe in the early 90s.

dinren@discuss.online on 25 Jun 01:12 next collapse

It’s the blimp scene from Indiana jones, except he says “no password” instead of “no papers” after he throws the guy out of the blimp.

x00z@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 13:16 collapse

Some western European countries already do the same thing nowadays. It goes against constitutional laws where you can remain silent and where you can’t be forced to help with your own conviction.

HubertManne@piefed.social on 24 Jun 20:25 next collapse

Well vance is immediately informed and provided a live feed. The strip you and bring you to a very handsome couch. Vance gets very disappointed when you just sit there but he just takes you and the couch he hand picked in and manages to rub one out.

WanderingThoughts@europe.pub on 24 Jun 20:58 collapse

Add that’s why certain employers already give a burner phone to their employees if they have to go to the USA.

A_norny_mousse@feddit.org on 25 Jun 09:50 collapse

But I heard they also demand access to ALL social media accounts, which aren’t tied to a device.

T156@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 11:49 next collapse

They can demand it, but you can’t prove a negative.

A_norny_mousse@feddit.org on 25 Jun 11:54 collapse

True. Yeah, I was wondering how that plays out if you simply reply “There are none.”

WanderingThoughts@europe.pub on 25 Jun 12:15 collapse

If you have 2 factor authentication, and the authentication device is on another continent, you don’t have any means to access the accounts even if they demand it.

ViatorOmnium@piefed.social on 24 Jun 20:20 next collapse

What kind of dumb fuck still goes to the US for tourism?

Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 02:00 next collapse

Norwegians have this fanciful notion that all European and north American countries are essentially the same and that nothing is as bad as it’s made out to be by those hysterical foreigners. This requires some degree of cognitive dissonance because they also feel like there is no country as good as Norway and everyone must really want to be Norwegian.

So he probably assumed it wasn’t nearly as bad over there as people are saying and if he was to get into difficulty he could just say he’s Norwegian and people would just let him off because everyone loves Norwegians. Also he’s 21 so not terribly smart yet.

Not to mention that he’s probably never been in a situation where a border control person takes your phone.

theherk@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 05:22 collapse

they also feel like there is no country as good as Norway and everyone must really want to be Norwegian.

I haven’t experienced that in the many years I’ve lived here. It is a humble group of people, seems to me. They also have tons of love for the other Scandinavian countries. You paint a picture of stuck up nationalists, and that’s pretty far from the truth.

Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 18:06 collapse

Ok but where are you originally from. Because they have a very short list of good countries. And a good many of them will say things like “yeah but you’re not one of those immigrants”. I’m not saying everyone is like this but a large number are, especially after a few beers.

TBF, when I first heard of this I didn’t realise dude was a tromsøværing. He probably isn’t that way just young and dumb.

theherk@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 18:43 collapse

Oh I’m American; I’m an immigrant here. I’m no expert on it. I’ve just lived here for several years and not witnessed that. That said, I’m probably in a bubble.

Scott_of_the_Arctic@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 18:54 collapse

When I first moved here as a Scot I was treated well but I was working an unskilled job and met a wide variety of people. Since transferring to academia there’s a lot less of it. But the states is on the good list for Norwegians. Which is probably why the little dude thought he would be fine and all the talk of fascism must be made up.

golli@sopuli.xyz on 25 Jun 15:25 collapse

For many a trip to the US from Europe is a major event. I’d imagine that many people planned their trips last year before Trump was even reelected and had already invested a lot of money, at which point sunk fallacy plays a role.

I also think that for many it still hasn’t registered that they are now also at risk and it’s not just the classic family guy meme anymore, where it’s based on skin colour.

Venus_Ziegenfalle@feddit.org on 25 Jun 11:51 next collapse

“Quick! He might be hiding more memes in his ass!” Like what?

SkaveRat@discuss.tchncs.de on 26 Jun 04:37 collapse

that’s where I store all my best shitposts

Hupf@feddit.org on 26 Jun 18:19 collapse

Don’t forget about all the potential fart jokes.

BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world on 25 Jun 20:15 next collapse

If I just delete all social media apps from my phone and pretend I don’t have any social media accounts would these facist dumb fucks even know or would that seem suspicious?, I could just buy an extra phone but that seems a bit unnecessary

clutchtwopointzero@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 02:18 collapse

that might be sus as well… better keep an alternative one that you don’t use and make sure the account is gets sufficiently old and then you just say that you just lurk

BackgrndNoize@lemmy.world on 26 Jun 03:41 collapse

What a fucking shit hole this country has become that I have to jump through all these hoops just to travel, it wasn’t this draconic even after 9/11 but racist losers had to own the libs I guess

[deleted] on 26 Jun 20:04 collapse
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