Germany may introduce conscription for all 18-year-olds
(www.telegraph.co.uk)
from boem@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 12 May 2024 20:35
https://lemmy.world/post/15333129
from boem@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 12 May 2024 20:35
https://lemmy.world/post/15333129
#world
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Preparing for world war?
Sometimes open war comes upon you, whether you risk it or not.
It might be that aggressive wannabe regional power that has already invaded several of its neighbors over the last decade or two, and makes continuous threats directed towards the rest of Europe?
No no, there’s other countries in the way of that, it’s obviously their problem
But they only want
Chechnya…Belarus…Ukraine… Poland?Kazakhstan,Moldova,Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania, Romania…Not Romania… I need my damn Visinata.
Mole people
There’s no escape from the fortress of the moles… except that.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
fortress of the moles
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Obviously from Isengard in the west and Mordor in the east.
(You’ve been wooooshed, the comment above is an approximate quote from the lort of the rings, when theoden is hesitant to call his men to arms)
You’d be a fool not to at this point.
What if instead we just didn’t do world war 3?
Unfortunately sometimes war is unavoidable
And Xi.
Then we’ll all be speaking Russian in 15 years.
Historians might look back and see that we now have already been in WW3, Hybrid Warfare / New Generation Warfare has been running rampant for a while between the global superpowers
Prepare, sure. There’s a lot of alternate ways things could resolve, though, and MAD is about as sturdy as it’s ever been.
It isn’t just about the military. I’ve not read the article, but Germany suffers from not having enough people working in social services. This problem got worse after getting rid of conscription. You could either choose military service or social work.
By reintroducing it, they hope to fill in some gaps.
“What should we do to get more people working in the health sector?”
“Better pay and more manageable shifts!”
“Roll back privatization to shift the focus to sustainability over profits!”
“I’d just enslave the youth again.”
[Employee 1& 2 get defenestrated for a change]
Defenestrated? You think the German military has that large of a budget?!
You can use the same window more than once
That’s a great idea, but how much glass do you need to knock out of a window before it just becomes door.
Doors usually have something on the other side.
Haha, trick question. Doors go all the way to the floor.
Pedantically speaking… they don’t. And it may be difficult to draw a distinction between a window with a very low sill and a door with an extremely high sill.
Der Fenstersturzschein des TÜV ist für nur einen Fenstersturz gültig. Sie müssen die Fenstersturzmeldungstelle noch mal kontaktiert um einen neuen Schein zu bekommen, dann einen anderen Termin bei uns nachfragen. Schönen tag noch. HALLO NÄCHSTE BITTE
Apparently not :(
U.S.A. should adopt this policy. It would humble out the nepo children of wealthy pieces of shit, and likely resolve the social issues that people complain about.
The nepo babies wouldn’t serve–same as always. And the political unpopularity of conscription has never changed. The last war draft is still in living memory, and US current military activity hasn’t been an improvement in terms of public appetite.
The US introduces conscription again, and there’ll be riots–and I don’t mean “some kids camped at college and the jackboots locked them up” protests; it’ll be government-building burning, widespread-looting riots.
If you want to do conscription, the kids have to trust the government not to kill them for oil.
They should never trust the government for that specifically - they’re always looking for someone to kill for oil!
I’ve not met very many vets that support mandatory service. When I say not many, I could count them on one hand.
That’s because in the US you could be sent abroad to kill brown people for oil. I was a conscript in my country in the 80’s (Nato). In my country conscripts couldn’t be sent abroad, only professionals. I’d be ok with defending home soil. That doen’t mean that I wanted to do my tour, but I did it. I think I learnt a lot, not least about serving for the common good. Looking back it was good for me. Also, at hat time, after service you’d be in the reserves (simply listed) and the country could raise an army of millions, who’d only need some refresher training in a week, not like the green ass russian conscripts in Ukraine right now.
I’m favor of conscription for limited duration, and no possibility of deployment abroad. Also, women too. That wasn’t a thing then.
Maybe we should turn this idea around? I know tons of healthy rich old people that have nothing better to do than bicker and complain, how about we force them to do a free full year of community service? Why is their time and energy considered more valuable than the youths’?
And maybe it would humble those wealthy nepo pieces of shit, and likely resolve the social issues that people complain about.
I’d applaud giving Elon Musk a chance to live out his flamethrower power fantasies in person.
Is a flamethrower a completely inappropriate weapon in modern warfare? Yes. Should we tell him that? Don’t you fucking dare.
I think making the rich mingle with the normal people more would be beneficial. It’s harder to dehumanize the poor when you’ve met them. Can’t call them lazy or stupid and just not “wanting” it enough when you see them work as hard as you and not getting as far.
Although, I think the way things are it’ll never happen though. Nepo babies would dodge everything even if something like this were to occur.
There’s better ways, like reducing car dependency and increasing housing density. Have people from all walks of life, live near each other and travel with each other, without being isolated in metal boxes. The ultra rich might still avoid that too, but at least the 99% will be around each other.
And you don’t need to force people to go to war to achieve it.
You’re absolutely right. I was trying to get what I hoped was the salient point out of the person’s post.
I knew a few guys in Europe I think maybe Austrian or something where they came from lots of money but went to school with “others” and they seemed pretty well-adjusted. Although, they have a lot of the other advantages that you’ve listed as well.
Yeah rich people are known to never be able to avoid the draft
I had a class mate who spent his holidays hiking in Nepal and places with his parents. When he was born a doctor close to his parents discovered a serious heart issue that made him ineligible for being drafted. I mean sure. You have a heart issue that you can’t run 30 minutes, but you are doing week long hikes in 5.000-6.000m altitude.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortunate_Son
It’s funny because it’s an American song.
Also some hospital work. Bedpan cleaning, etc.
But it kept you out of the army, and took the strain off of hospitals and social services.
Yeah, instead of actually fixing the system and paying people normal wages, while also fixing the stupid education/certification system that social service workers need to go through, let’s just throw a bunch of teenagers at it, it will surely fix our problems!
Probably that, and also gender equality. I’m not really in the favor of drafting, but it’s unfair that men have to go and women don’t.
Pointless signalling. No government would send young women to die in war.
That is just patently false. There are plenty of women fighting in warzones.
yeah… dozens. No government would conscript and send unwilling women to die in war. The women who fight on the front lines are always vaulenteers, and they are very very few.
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I always thought conscription had benefits. Tidy up the youth, teach them teamwork, toughen them up and give them self-reliance, will really help with the obesity problem.
I don’t think there’s a large scale obesity problem in Germany.
That’s where you would be wrong.
Currently, just barely under half of Germany’s population is overweight.
That’s only ten percent less than the USA, which sits at 57%.
And yes, it causes massive health problems, staining the healthcare system.
Just need to use copious amounts of bleach then.
Alright, I stand corrected.
The best argument for conscription is that, like politics or the police, the psychology predisposed to choosing it is not necessarily the most beneficial to be involved with it.
If you could choose to serve only in natural disaster relief, humanitarian, or aid operations it would make it significantly less conflicting.
Ultimately the requirement to be involved with, and potentially murder, in anti-democratic or anti-humanitarian operations, and acts of aggression, that could have been decided entirely by self-serving corporate or political interests makes conscription a dealbreaker.
Starship troopers style. Interesting.
Also with conscripts they don’t normally see fighting they are just normally ready. They tend to just be trained reserves.
As someone said above:
Which seems fairly reasonable to me
Do the army even want a bunch of nerds, theatre kids, goths and bisexual disasters - speaking as someone who was all of those as a teen - in the army? I thought the army liked people who shut up and ran around a field.
“Oh if you don’t they put you in jail”
ok how is that good for society?
It’s not good at all for society. It’s slavery with the addition of a heightened risk of death, all to serve the whims of guys in suits far from the battlefield.
Previous commenter thinking it’s a good thing because it will whip the rabble into shape is delirious. These are peoples sons and daughters that we would be sending off to die in the mud. Shameful.
even if they never see war and just do a bunch of calisthenics in a muddy field - it’s still being yelled at rudely to do push-ups instead of… working a job? Being in education?
I have absolutely no issue with OP being in the army - a good friend of mine was in the Signals. I respect him, but also, it would’ve done most of the people I know no good at all.
I wasn’t saying it for the good of the army I was saying it for the good of the people.
The army will get the best out of them that they can. Sounds like they could do with it more than most.
why can’t I decide what’s best for me? ages 18-21 I worked for my local city in projects designed to get local young people at risk of offending into projects like (legal) graffiti, music, arts, sports and volunteering.
Surely that was a better benefit to society than learning how to walk in the same rhythm as a group of other people?
Same reason we don’t let kids decide if they want to go to school or not. Not everyone is going to make the right choice. People do things for their and societies good. You really don’t think most people are currently doing that can you?
but we let these “kids” choose their degrees, or jobs and - indeed potentially train them for the military - at that age.
And who is to say the military is the right choice? If someone yells at me to do push ups in the mud - in any other context I am well within my rights to tell them to fuck off. Which is entirely normal behavior.
In general, yes, the majority of people are doing some kind of good for themselves, families and communities. People volunteer, raise kids, donate to charity, recycle, care for sick relatives, help their neighbors and friends…
I think your right.
As much as the fat kids and the kids that have no will power and blame their lack of drive on others could benefit from structure, teamwork and exercise.
You’re right, ultimately it is too late and it just trying to fixing a failing of the state. We need to give these people more attention in school and turn them into better people than what we turn out of schools currently.
it’s interesting to me that you see childhood obesity as “an absence of military training” and not such things as
“oh that’s expensive”
the us military spends $64,000 per second every second.
I didn’t say that. I say conscription would help these overweight people and it would help in other ways.
Then I also said that getting to that point is a failing of the state.
You don’t know where I stand on any of those points because we weren’t talking about it.
I don’t really care what the US military spends per second.
Haven’t heard a stronger backwards boomer opinion in ages. Gheez…
Nothing gives people self-reliance like training them to do exactly as they are told, nothing more, nothing less and god forbid they develop a thought of their own on an issue and consider voicing it.
You don’t know how low the bar is.
Hey, I’ve seen this one
Of course you have. The Draft has been active from 1954 to 2010.
Germany needs to draft soldiers to go to Ukraine as soon as possible and help the Ukrainians, because it is the right thing to do.
As much as I would like to see Russia get shitmixed by a proper first world army (not that Ukraine hasn’t been doing phenomenally), I think that might actually put putin in a corner.
Ideally we’ll just keep giving Ukraine equipment and propagandize how hard they’re kicking russian ass and sanction the hell out of Russia until the people and oligarchs lose their appetite for Ukraine.
Only if you’re among the first wave
Draft soldiers of Germany are not allowed to operate outside of our own borders and are used to fill the gaps that stem from professional soldiers working abroad. The Bundeswehr and especially the draftees can only be used for peacekeeping, humanitarian aid and defense.
How about our military stays between our own borders. Let those that want to go go. But don’t force a bunch of our youth to go fight someone else’s war.
I bet you could find a bunch of people saying this almost word-for-word as Hitler took Czechoslovakia.
If you don’t fight the Russians in Ukraine, you will be fighting them in Germany. Don’t say you weren’t warned.
Then go sign up for it and fight. No one is stopping you.
This is an unserious proposal. Germany spends about 1.5 percent of its GDP(*) on defence, much of it wasted, and increasing it to even 2 percent has involved painful and extended political wrangling. If the country collectively cannot find the will to tweak its budget to fund a modest increase in defence spending, it is not going to countenance universal conscription.
(*) GDP, not budget; error pointed out by Enkrod
It’s a serious proposal, but not as a universal conscription. It’s intended to only call everyone in for the health check and use that as a way to get young people interested in the army.
There are different models floating around, the most serious being that everyone (including women) gets called in and you basically choose between civil service and army. The civilian side can ramp up slots rather quickly, the army doesn’t. So the army probably will ramp up over several years.
Also, I wouldn’t call 100 billion € a “modest increase”.
To be honest, conscription aside, I think a gap year of civil service would be a good idea. It gives you a break from school - university - work, you don’t feel like you lost time since everyone has to do it, and you get into a mindset outside of your preplanned route, which might do you good.
I’m going to have to disagree. It’s forced labour, no amount of pretty words changes that. It’s also not a “break” if you have to work, and considering that you’d be unskilled and probably physical labour with no (simple) way for you to quit if faced with abuse, it probably won’t even be under good conditions or compensated fairly.
This is already very common in Germany, if anything it would make it worse for many
The draft has never been abolished in germany, it has only officially been ‘suspended’. Resuming it would be easy.
Except that you need to actually house, feed, clothe and train those draftees and most western militaries no longer have the capacity to do that at scale.
The fact that it is legally easy does not say anything about how difficult it will be organizationally
CoD 2 Tutorial Russian Campaign vibes. Throwing potatoes to train throwing grenades incoming.
Legally yes it would be easy. Practically we do not have the infrastructure anymore for it.
Heck iirc the state doesn’t even have the capability to know who would need to be drafted anymore.
To be honest, getting a majority to agree that the youth should do what most other generations did seems easier than taking money out of other budgets. Even before Russias attack there had been calls to make every young person do a year or Service for society. The plan was more socially beneficial back then but the sentiment of just ignoring what the younger generation wants isn’t new
This is PATENTLY wrong. It’s 1.49% of GDP, not budget.
Defense budget is 10.9% of the governments budget, it’s the second largest budgeted item after social wellfare and in front of infrastructure (which is crumbling) and debt. To increase it to 2% of gross domestic product means spending an additional amount equal to the entire budget for education and research.
Apologies for the mistake.
But the point remains: 2% of GDP is the NATO target, getting even to that point for Germany has been like pulling teeth, and a serious implementation of universal conscription would be a much bigger ask.
Dead children don’t need education, problem solved!
Oh wow, this is the first time I see this difference mentioned. NATO really expects that much military spending?
Ah the Trump lies really got to you
In the USA I had to sign up for the draft when I came of age, but luckily the draft system hasn’t been utilized since 1973.
Same year that the productivity-pay gap begins. Hmm.
In Germany, the last conscripts were called up in 2011.
That is so sad, these kinds of times should already be over in humanity’s history. Why doesn’t anyone have a solution? Are the war mongering powers just waiting for the new nuclear deterrent? Future AI terminators pls just go straight to Russia/China/USA leadership and let the humans be
It’s because the leaders aren’t the ones fighting the battles or being targeted. They’re playing chess somewhere far from the violence.
We should just solve conflicts by throwing the presidents or monarchs of the opposing countries in an arena to fight to death.
I think it’d be better if we disregarded highly authoritarian leaders in general and embraced socialism. Back in the day, kings and emperors fought their battles, but it didn’t make their feudalism any less… feudal.
Unfortunately humans are greedy so that won’t ever happen.
Humans cooperated and formed large confederations long before capitalism and liberalism were ideas.
It’s true that unequal and selfish organisations have often consolidated power and squashed other organisations but we’ve also seen humanity going the opposite way many times before.
To shrug our shoulders and say humans are inherently greedy so socialism can’t work is a cop out. We’ve dismantled unequal power structures many times before and we can do it again
That would be interesting. We’d definitely have to shift who we elect towards more violent leaders tho, and idk how I feel about that haha.
- Kat, All Quiet on the Western Front
“Sorry ole chap, turns out all those cigars didn’t do Churchill any favors. Hitler took him out in under a minute.
Anyway, we heard you’re gay, so here’s a bullet in your ear.”
Yeah, but the US has a guy in a wheelchair!
Good point, the Allies would have been in trouble. Meth head Hitler vs Stalin would have been interesting.
Let’s say your country was about to be invaded, your house stolen and you sent elsewhere or killed so that citizens of the invading country could occupy your house and your land instead.
And all of that not happening was hinged on the physical prowess of an old guy who’s probably been in politics for decades.
How helpless would you feel?
What a fantastic way to ensure all world leaders are violent men
Maybe Civ 6 was too boring for them.
That’s where they practice haha
FWIW and AFAIK, the PRC doesn’t have conscription (while the ROC does).
There’s also conscription in places which don’t attack others, because of an attack threat from a neighbor. I just hope that whatever helps humanity forward, goes to the root cause. Imperialist state oligarchs are a good start. And other billionaires
I’m buying broomstick stonks right now
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The title is not entirely correct. They don’t plant to “introduce” conscription. Germany had conscription from its formation of the Bundeswehr in 1955 until it was put on hiatus in 2011 because people back then thought that Ivan was no longer a problem. So what they think about is not “introducing” but just reactivate it.
The changes will be that while before 2011, conscription was only for men, it is planned to be for both sexes, and military service will no longer the one preferred service (back then, you had to go through quite some hoops if you did not want to serve in the Bundeswehr and do your time in e.g. social services). This time, the military option is just one of several that can be chosen.
That makes sense and good on them for conscription not caring about gender
At this stage it’s all hot air. Nobody has even started talking about how to finance it and the defense minister isn’t even 100% sure he will get his requested additional funds for the next cycle. When somebody asked him about the topic he replied that he isn’t categorically against it but he would have to finance (and restructure, as the necessary infrastructure for it has been degraded/scrapped) more important topics first.
Well, the main opposition party wants that… Sooo… Maybe in the future, maybe not…
www.vidlii.com/watch?v=-HkErc-xfRK
i don;t like conscription into the military but i’ve always felt some sort of manatory non-military civil or social service or peace corps participation would do a lot for encouraging civic participation in exchange for some sort of universal educational system or some form of reimbursement for secondary education.
That’s supposed to be the taxes you pay for the rest of you life
taxes don’t allow you to appreciate civic participation…
In this day and age it feels like a McDonald’s worker could ai copilot a drone better than the folks over in Israel, so no I totally disagree with conscription without certain safeguards in place to prevent genocide or other dumbfuckery.