Japan needs to possess nuclear weapons, prime minister's office source says (english.kyodonews.net)
from King@sh.itjust.works to world@lemmy.world on 18 Dec 22:08
https://sh.itjust.works/post/51840212

#world

threaded - newest

venusaur@lemmy.world on 18 Dec 22:45 next collapse

If one country has nukes, all countries should have nukes. It’s only fair.

wewbull@feddit.uk on 18 Dec 23:57 collapse

No country should have nukes, and more countries acquiring them makes that goal even harder to achieve.

ryannathans@aussie.zone on 19 Dec 00:04 next collapse

If some countries have nukes, probability of nuclear attack is high

As more countries have nukes, probability of nuclear attack drops significantly

It’s impossible to have zero countries with nukes anymore, someone will always have secret nukes, which leads to high risk

pilferjinx@piefed.social on 19 Dec 00:34 next collapse

And it’s open season for those with nukes to invade others without.

xenomor@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 02:25 collapse

This exactly. The most significant result of hoisting up nonproliferation as a virtue has been to sustain and grow US hegemony. That is a bad deal for everyone, including Americans.

frongt@lemmy.zip on 19 Dec 00:40 collapse

As more countries have nukes, the chance goes up. More leaders have the opportunity to pull the trigger. It only takes one crazy guy taking power. Or one nuke left improperly secured, especially in an unstable country, and then it gets stolen and used, even as a dirty bomb.

ryannathans@aussie.zone on 19 Dec 06:59 collapse

This is not true, it’s called the stability instability paradox

en.wikipedia.org/…/Stability–instability_paradox

venusaur@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 04:05 collapse

Yeah but who’s gonna stop them? I know that’s the right answer for a pageant contestant, but be realistic.

treadful@lemmy.zip on 19 Dec 00:26 next collapse

Now I want to see a movie where the only country that can have nukes is the last one that got nuked.

thatradomguy@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 00:33 next collapse

Anyone else feeling WW3 vibes yet? No? Just me? K

Isthisreddit@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 03:38 next collapse

Rising fascism all over the place, what can possibly go wrong

_Nico198X_@europe.pub on 19 Dec 08:23 next collapse

Definitely not just you.

And all of this sits at the feet of Russia.

FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 16:25 collapse

Actually, no.

We’ve heard WW3 analogies tossed around for the last 30 years.

I think it’s more fair to say that we’re not facing WW3 precisely because the world has seen the destructive power of nuclear weapons and they’ve proliferated so much. That is, obviously, particularly true for Japan.

faizalr@fedia.io on 19 Dec 01:40 next collapse

They should choose the atomic bomb instead.

someguy3@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 03:24 next collapse

Let’s see next is Germany and Italy to say it.

P00ptart@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 19:13 collapse

Norway. And let them call it their berserker force.

someguy3@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 19:32 collapse

You missed the Axis.

P00ptart@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 20:36 collapse

Didn’t realize you were going for that off of only Japan.

someguy3@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 20:40 collapse

“Let’s see next is Germany and Italy to say it.”

sik0fewl@lemmy.ca on 19 Dec 03:45 next collapse

Any nation that wants to keep their sovereignty needs nukes. Agreements like the Budapest Memorandum were a mistake for some of the countries involved (Ukraine).

WoodScientist@sh.itjust.works on 19 Dec 04:21 next collapse

I mean, I have a chaotic solution we might try. Let’s simply…reverse the Budapest Memorandum! Let’s just hand Ukraine a few hundred thermonuclear warheads, with launchers and launch codes and say, “here, go have fun!”

“The president has announced…that we have reversed the Budapest Memorandum…”

:D

_Nico198X_@europe.pub on 19 Dec 08:22 next collapse

Unironically this

Saapas@piefed.zip on 20 Dec 12:30 collapse

Hey it’s like me in Civ4 gifting tactical nukes to countries to worsen the conflict

vega208@sh.itjust.works on 19 Dec 10:26 next collapse

Lol, I wonder when Ukrainians will connect the dots that they’re in this position solely because they put their faith into western powers that didn’t deliver on their side of the bargain.

moderatecentrist@feddit.uk on 19 Dec 10:45 next collapse

When did western powers promise that they would stop Putin invading Ukraine?

Ukraine is in their current position because Putin decided to invade Ukraine

Naloxone@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 11:53 next collapse

Ukraine is the only nation to ever give up their nuclear weapons (after the dissolution of the USSR). At the time, they were assured by the world that their security would be provided for if there was ever a need.

moderatecentrist@feddit.uk on 19 Dec 12:32 collapse

I just looked at the text of the Budapest Memorandum. The US, the UK, and Russia all agreed in that memorandum to “refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine”.

Russia is the country who broke that commitment, when they invaded Ukraine in 2014. I wouldn’t say that the US or the UK broke that commitment, because they haven’t used force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.

There’s another commitment in there saying that the US, the UK, and Russia will “seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine… if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression”. It seems there were UNSC meetings - like this one - shortly after Russia sent troops into Crimea. If you think the US and UK didn’t do enough in this regard then fair enough, but I don’t their actions were as bad as Russia invading Ukraine.

3abas@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 13:03 collapse

Semantics.

The point is Ukraine wouldn’t be in this position if they didn’t give up their Nukes, and they gave up their Nukes because they believed more would be done.

moderatecentrist@feddit.uk on 19 Dec 14:01 collapse

I’m talking about what was actually agreed to. To me it seems that Russia quite clearly abandoned its commitments within the Budapest Memorandum. I don’t think you can say that the US and the UK did, unless you’re saying that those two countries didn’t do enough within the UN Security Council to back Ukraine.

Surely the primary country to blame for this situation is Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014. Western countries didn’t invade Ukraine.

FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 16:24 collapse

No one is placing blame here.

They’re discussing the material factors that have led to the current situation. Lack of nukes is one of those, and it’s likely that Ukraine wouldn’t be under a state of defensive war at the moment had they maintained their nuclear arsenal.

moderatecentrist@feddit.uk on 19 Dec 17:46 collapse

Sure, if Ukraine had kept their nukes and maintained them, they might not be in this current position.

But anyway, I was responding to the post that said “they’re [Ukraine] in this position solely because they put their faith into western powers that didn’t deliver on their side of the bargain”.

In my view that just isn’t true. Their current position is not “solely” because they put faith into western powers who haven’t delivered. Their current position is happening because the Kremlin decided to invade Ukraine. I absolutely hope that western powers do more to help Ukraine, but western powers didn’t make Russia invade Ukraine. It also seems to me that western powers probably have upheld “their side of the bargain” under the Budapest Memorandum, although like I say, I hope western powers do more to help Ukraine.

[deleted] on 19 Dec 23:01 collapse
.
moderatecentrist@feddit.uk on 20 Dec 12:36 collapse

Actually it’s your post that doesn’t matter. If you actually read my posts, you’ll see that I originally was responding to this post:

Lol, I wonder when Ukrainians will connect the dots that they’re in this position solely because they put their faith into western powers that didn’t deliver on their side of the bargain.

I’m saying Ukraine’s current position is not “solely because they put their faith into western powers that didn’t deliver on their side of the bargain”. Two reasons for this:

  1. Even if you think “western powers” haven’t fulfilled “their side of the bargain”, this wouldn’t be the sole reason for Ukraine’s position. Another probably more important reason is that Russia chose to invade Ukraine.
  2. Arguably “western powers”, under the Budapest Memorandum, did fulfil “their side of the bargain”. The US and the UK (parties to the Budapest Memorandum) didn’t seem to commit to fighting a war if Ukraine came under attack. That being said, I absolutely hope that western powers do more to help Ukraine at the moment.

Now do you understand it?

Edit: I was rude in this post originally but I’ve taken away some of the rudeness. To be honest, the post I’m responding to is incredibly rude. Clearly the person who wrote that DID NOT READ WHAT I WROTE.

3abas@lemmy.world on 21 Dec 04:08 collapse

You’re arguing with a point no one is really making. Yes, we get it, they aren’t obligated to deliver more than they did.

We understand you, you’re technically correct and it’s very irrelevant. You’re arguing over the specific words someone chose when they started a sentence with “Lol”, they were probably sitting on a toilet, this isn’t an academic paper.

Instead of laser focusing on the exact wording they used in a throwaway online comment, try to focus on what they mean. You said it yourself:

If you think the US and UK didn’t do enough in this regard then fair enough

Do you think Ukraine would have given up their Nukes if they believed in good faith that they would “do enough” when they are invaded?

And btw, you also said

but I don’t their actions were as bad as Russia invading Ukraine.

Which again is a point no one is making. Yeah, of course Russia is to blame for Russia invading Ukraine. If Ukraine had Nukes, Russia wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine. It was a bad idea for Ukraine’s independence to give up their nukes, that’s the argument being made.

Now do you understand it?

Zron@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 12:23 collapse

Western powers promised Ukraine protection against attack or invasion by themselves and Russia in the December 5th, 1994 Budapest Memorandum.

The US, France, UK, Russia, and China all agreed not to invade Ukraine and in fact to provide protection, and in exchange, Ukraine gave up their nukes.

Russia violated this just 20 years later when they invaded and stole Crimea from Ukraine, and now 30 years later they are trying to conquer the entire country.

Thats why everyone is so hell bent on providing support for Ukraine. Not just because it’s the right thing to do, but because they were promised protection by world powers.

moderatecentrist@feddit.uk on 19 Dec 12:38 collapse

I looked at the text of the Budapest Memorandum. The main commitments seem to be a commitment to not use force against Ukraine, and a commitment to “seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine… if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression”.

I absolutely hope that every country supports Ukraine and helps them at the moment. I’m just saying that it seems to me that Russia is the one who has abandoned its commitments within the Budapest Memorandum. I don’t know if you can say that the US and the UK have (Wikipedia says that France and China gave assurances in separate documents, not in the Budapest Memorandum). Although I absolutely hope that the US will take a more pro-Ukraine stance as soon as possible.

[deleted] on 20 Dec 12:27 collapse
.
FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 14:05 collapse

This is the correct answer.

The only thing that keeps imperialism at bay is mutually-assured destruction.

porcoesphino@mander.xyz on 19 Dec 04:36 next collapse

This is scary for the increased risk of some pretty terrible outcomes but with US security guarantees as untrustworthy as they have become then actions like this are tough to argue against

porcoesphino@mander.xyz on 19 Dec 04:37 collapse

If I was a South Korean or Taiwanese government official working to ensure future sovereignty, I’d be considering the same

SabinStargem@lemmy.today on 20 Dec 12:41 collapse

I wouldn’t be surprised if a bloc forms between Indo-Asia countries, providing mutual aid, nukes, and trade to box in China. Phillipines, Taiwan, India, Korea, Japan, Australia, all have good reasons to cooperate.

demonsword@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 11:46 next collapse

Oh yeah what a great idea, let yet another fascist country possess nukes. What could go wrong?

webp@mander.xyz on 19 Dec 12:11 next collapse

Ugh

FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 12:53 next collapse

Every country needs to have a nuke, based on what we’re seeing the US and Israel do to Palestine and what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

TronBronson@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 15:16 next collapse

Yes more nukes for all! Let everyone fight over old land disputes too! If we remember the history of Afghanistan, we know that nuclear weapons were crucial in their efforts to topple the USSR and the USA!

FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 15:31 next collapse

I think the best example here is North Korea actually. Nothing stops imperialists in their tracks better than a nuclear program, and if we want a more peaceful world, the answer is every country having a nuke as that inspires more diplomacy and cooperation.

daq@lemmy.sdf.org on 19 Dec 15:52 next collapse

How the fuck is it a good example? People are starving, their only real export is meth and the only countries pretending to deal with them are China and fucking russia. You seriously think that anyone considering taking over their territory would be worried that ancient soviet garbage will fly? Only reason Korea doesn’t take over is they know their country can’t survive infusion of starving, brainwashed masses that would take years to integrate into any modern society.

FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 16:10 next collapse

How the fuck is it a good example?

Maybe think about it a little before speaking.

Also, maybe consider your delivery.

Do you think you’re more likely to get a good response by leading off in hysterics and obscenities? Or do you think you could have led this off in a different way, such as: “I disagree for the following reasons.”

daq@lemmy.sdf.org on 19 Dec 22:36 collapse

I want to welcome you to the internet. Place is wild.

I take it your agree it was a shit example since you didn’t provide any arguments to the opposite?

Gigasser@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 01:16 collapse

North Korea ain’t a good country. But it is a good example that having nukes prevents powerful countries from fucking with you.

daq@lemmy.sdf.org on 20 Dec 01:38 collapse

No it isn’t. I explained exactly why. Country is tiny, they don’t have anything unique or especially valuable as far as natural resources and population is hungry and brainwashed. Those are the real reasons nobody bothers with them.

IndustryStandard@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 17:02 collapse

You should look up what America did to Korea before they had nukes.

daq@lemmy.sdf.org on 19 Dec 22:33 collapse

You’re talking about Korean War? America defended Korea from Soviet attack. You’ve got some alternative history you’re operating with?

0x0@infosec.pub on 19 Dec 22:58 next collapse

Educate yourself, you sound like a dumb American.

en.wikipedia.org/…/United_States_expedition_to_Ko…

According to a National Interest article, Low’s own records indicated the punitive campaign was motivated by a need to demonstrate American power over what he considered to be a weaker nation. Previously, the American commanders had felt entitled. They would “peacefully” enter Korean waters for survey and trade aboard heavily armed warships, all the while ignoring repeated diplomatic requests to respect Korean sovereignty.

ManixT@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 00:21 next collapse

That was in 1871; almost a hundred years before the Korean war. Wtf are you talking about?

daq@lemmy.sdf.org on 20 Dec 01:31 collapse

Let’s see, 1945 - 1871 = what the fuck are you talking about?

IndustryStandard@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 10:01 collapse

Where America firebombed Korea to the ground? Awesome defense.

Tell me how great Vietnam was next.

daq@lemmy.sdf.org on 20 Dec 15:18 collapse

You keep saying Korea, but you keep talking about a different country. Yes, in response to an attack on Korea, US did firebomb the aggressor.

I hope the US would react the same way today, but unfortunately current senile and treasonous cunt would almost certainly act the way daddy puto tells him to.

Either way, ancient soviet nukes would play zero role in the decision making process. I seriously doubt even a slightly more advanced shithole like russia has the capacity to launch even 1% after decades of corruption and neglect of soviet assets. Fucking North Korea would certainly be erased off the face of the planet by any modern army without a single rocket being allowed to take off from their territory.

IndustryStandard@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 15:32 collapse

Kim Jong In could only dream of brainwashing people so hard they would support firebombing a civilian population. You are very far gone.

daq@lemmy.sdf.org on 20 Dec 15:34 collapse

Correct, he was a soviet installed puppet.

TronBronson@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 12:33 collapse

I still believe the time old tale, no one bothers North Korea because the humanitarian crisis it would cause… they don’t have a scary amount of nukes. Nor do they have the means to deliver them to us.

Lot of people in this sub really don’t understand nuclear doctrine or MAD. They don’t just make enemy’s go away, they just make them point more nukes at you…

Tryenjer@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 23:11 collapse

I need a nuke too! 🥺

Alwaysnownevernotme@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 23:53 collapse

The only way to stop a bad guy with a nuke…

gandalf_der_12te@discuss.tchncs.de on 20 Dec 15:58 collapse

is another bad guy with a nuke? because what could possibly go wrong

TronBronson@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 12:15 collapse

Like is Palestine going to nuke us or Israel in your fantasy?

phutatorius@lemmy.zip on 19 Dec 14:42 next collapse

Well, that’s what happens when you elect a fascist.

stupidopensourceBS@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 15:43 next collapse

<img alt="“[Chuckling] Which, if true, means death for us all.”" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ddaeda1a-9991-4fb8-8a59-44000700314a.gif">

BodyPower@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 16:21 next collapse

Denmark needs the nuke too to protect it self from Russia, but also the US.

HerrBeter@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 05:55 collapse

Med plutonium tvingar vi dansken på knä

chunes@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 23:27 next collapse

The more nations that have them, the higher the chance they’ll be used. It’s going to happen sooner than we think.

minkymunkey_7_7@lemmy.world on 19 Dec 23:46 collapse

I actually think the Star TREK First Contact dates may be right.

Yeller_king@reddthat.com on 19 Dec 23:39 next collapse

I need em too.

Jym66@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 04:42 next collapse

I thought Japan could never have an army again after WW2, never mind nukes??

AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 12:51 next collapse

They had restrictions on their military, which were recently (in the last decade or so) lifted.

tiredofsametab@fedia.io on 21 Dec 05:03 collapse

Not exactly, or at least not insofaras repealing article 9 (I think is the one). Japan has done a lot of "this isn't what it looks like and you can't prove it's not what we say it is" as a strategy for building things they probably "shouldn't".

lepinkainen@lemmy.world on 20 Dec 16:14 next collapse

Rules don’t seem to apply anymore, so fuck it

Siegfried@lemmy.world on 21 Dec 04:54 next collapse

It’s been 80 years. Now USA is a bigger threat than japan.

tiredofsametab@fedia.io on 21 Dec 05:19 collapse

Japan has been allowed a self-defense force. What that force can consist of/have/do has been quite restricted. They've built a lot of stuff that they probably technically aren't allowed to but have said "oh, that's not a ThingWeCannotHave but a SimlarButAllowedOrReducedThing". Recent rumblings have been about what constitutes self defense, which some wanting to include attacks on Taiwan, cyber warfare, pre-emptive strikes, and other stuff.

Then there are the factions that want to strip out the article of the constitution about self-defense-forces-only entirely. Unless I missed it, this has yet to be done.

As for nuclear weapons, I don't actually know if that's covered anywhere in the constitution or self-imposed. We're only recently getting to the point that there aren't really any survivors left, but their kids are still around and many fight against having it. As the US becomes a less-reliable ally, I see this resistance falling. Tension has always been high, particularly in Okinawa which always get shafted, between the US forces and civilians and I suspect it will continue to increase.

~ Dude living in Japan for a bit over a decade.

dukatos@lemmy.zip on 20 Dec 04:57 next collapse

Ask USA for some…

luciferofastora@feddit.org on 20 Dec 07:35 next collapse

The Security Dilemma of international relations: Keeping your own country safe requires doing things that will make your neighbours feel less safe.

Blackmist@feddit.uk on 20 Dec 15:26 collapse

Welp, hope you’ve all been saving your bottlecaps.

I’ve been hiding them all around my house in every openable container, so even in the event that I don’t survive, a lone wanderer can at least benefit from my mild alcoholism.