So I take it then, that any comment even vaguely in support of Israel will be removed as against the TOS? Because surely advocating in favour of genocide, even indirectly, is far worse than criticising the organisation actually committing that genocide?
“Three killed in Ukrainian drone attack on central Russia”
“Three people have been killed and 45 injured following an attack by Ukraine on a factory in the city of Izhevsk - more than 1,000km (620 miles) from the border - Russian authorities say.”
User replies “Good.”
That’s removable. They are applauding the deaths of three human beings.
“Russian drone strike on port city kills married couple, injures 17, Ukraine officials say”
“Russian drones struck the southern Ukrainian port city of Odesa overnight, killing two people and injuring at least 17, Ukrainian authorities said on Saturday.”
User responds with typical pro-Russia propaganda. Ukraine are Nazis, they started it, yadda yadda.
In what world is suggesting one army should attack another army not a “call to violence”?
Your rulings are just complete nonsense. There’s no consistency. You’re just applying it based on your own whims. One of which seems, based on how you’re applying it, to be “genocide is ok when it’s done to brown people”.
Again, nothing to do with genocide or anything outside the group. If you come here suggesting people deserve to be killed, you’re not going to find receptive moderation.
rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
on 02 Jul 03:30
collapse
Your TOS do not prohibit it. It only prohibit call for violence against racial, ethnic groups and any minorities
No, I know you won’t. Here it is, bolding is mine:
“Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.”
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 02 Jul 01:07
nextcollapse
The IDF, being an occupying army, under international law is absolutely a legitimate target for violent armed Palestinian resistance. Legitimate target of violent armed resistance. It’s the law.
No, because defunding the police is not an extermination program. Advocate for KILLING cops? That’s going to be removed with a quickness.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 02 Jul 01:38
nextcollapse
Destroying an army is not an extermination program either. It’s called war. Members of that group can choose to leave that group. It’s called deserting.
Under international law, the UN charter, Palestinians fighting against the IDF, using armed violence against the occupation is a legitimate war. Are you denying the right of Palestinians to fight a war for their freedom?
OK, got it. So, according to you and the rules of the community, Ukraine is supposed to defend itself with strongly worded letters to the editor. Maybe my ancestors who fought for Greek freedom and independence were violent extremists. Even got my comment removed by mod for saying as much. How lovely. The door. Of course.
I hope one day you will realize the double standard that you’re applying to the Palestinian struggle for freedom and how this double standard was part of the things that enable their Genocide. Hopefully by then, there will still be Palestinians in Palestine.
The hardest one was when Henry Kissinger died, because, well, Henry Kissinger. LOL. Lots of reminders of “No celebrating death”, but I mean, it WAS Kissinger.
DeathToJordanLundFatVagina@lemmings.world
on 02 Jul 17:45
collapse
I’m confused about the rule can you explain it a bit more clearer?
These are contradictory statements, it makes no sense. When you say that “Ukraine can do whatever they need to do [in the face of] an illegal invasion and genocidal statements and actions” YOU are also saying that they can use deadly force. YOU are advocating violence on behalf of Ukraine. But if we flip the bit from Ukraine to Palestine suddenly it breaks the TOS?
But we’re not talking about killing people. We’re talking about killing an organisation. If someone had said “death to Apple”, that is not the same as “death to Tim Cook and all his employees”.
We specifically ban calls for violence, if you argue “Death to Apple” in an environment where Apple stores are being firebombed, then yeah, we’d remove those statements too.
They are literally all doing this. There is more confected outrage about this than the actual slaughter of civilians by the IDF. I feel like I’m going mad.
EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com
on 01 Jul 05:33
collapse
They are engaging in an absolutely ridiculous campaign of gaslighting. It’s so outlandish and over-the-top that it would actually be hilarious if it was on a lighter subject matter rather than genocide, terrorism, and a litany of war crimes.
They didn’t even do the most basic of work to attempt to put forward a front of journalistic integrity. They didn’t give Vylan a chance to respond to the article.
thatsnothowyoudoit@lemmy.ca
on 30 Jun 23:13
nextcollapse
There was a really interesting podcast on the AP style and its entrenched biases - but only available to subscribers:
They should be more neutral in a non-opinion piece. They quote a lot more people saying pro-genocide things than they quote people saying anti-genocide things. They quoted pro-genocide politicians and pro-genocide BBC staff. They did not give the musicians any opportunity to respond to the article.
Israel’s war against Hamas in Gaza has inflamed tensions around the world, triggering pro-Palestinian protests in many capitals and on college campuses. Israel and some supporters have described the protests as antisemitic, while critics say Israel uses such descriptions to silence opponents
Let’s consider the two positions mentioned in this paragraph:
Israel should stop committing genocide
Israel should continue committing genocide, and position 1 is antisemitic
The first position is described as “pro-Palestinian”, as if these protesters support the Palestinian military (Hamas) and want them to win. This is incorrect. These people mostly just want the genocide to end.
The second position is a shitty opinion, but also contains an overt falsehood. It’s an objective fact that it’s false, and that fact should be reported in the story, but it isn’t.
alcibiades@sh.itjust.works
on 02 Jul 17:37
nextcollapse
I agree that they didn’t use enough anti-genocide supporters, their sources were one sided.
But your second critique would require a complete rewrite and would change the article completely.
I agree that pro vs anti genocide is the better way to approach the conflict, however, for reporting purposes, it makes more sense to call it an Israel vs Palestine conflict. Calling it pro vs anti genocide means that you have taken the position of calling the conflict a genocide (which I agree with, it is genocide). But as the article states, Israel does not see this as a genocide and neither do a lot of governments.
AP describes the conflict as a war of Israel against Hamas. Not a war of Israel against Palestine. This could be interpreted as 1) diminishing the genocide and 2) reporting on one specific facet of the conflict ie Israel against Hamas forces, which it could be argued, is a different conflict than Israel against the Palestinian people. This also means that by the articles definitions, Palestinian supporters are different than Hamas supporters.
Their second position does not say one side is correct and one side is wrong. They say
Israel and some supporters have described the protests as antisemitic
Israel and their supporters, not the AP describe protests as antisemitic.
critics say Israel uses such descriptions to silence opponents.
Critics, not the AP, say Israel is incorrect in their antisemitic descriptions.
If the article did what you wanted, it would be an opinion piece about how we need to call the conflict a genocide, and all future reporting should reflect this.
I don’t think this article is very supportive of the Palestinian people’s struggles. I also don’t think it supports the Israelis. It is tip-toeing the very fragile line of (falsely accused) antisemitism that they write about. It isn’t perfect, but it’s unfair to call it pro Israel.
alcibiades@sh.itjust.works
on 02 Jul 17:50
collapse
Also I think what is really shitty is that outlets report on a genocide in this matter. But this article was about the response to Bob Vylan. I think both of us are angry about how anything related to the genocide has to be reported as the Israel Palestine conflict unless you want to receive an extremely negative response to your reporting.
Hell if we want to be all intellectual we can brand this as another symptom of the global capitalist system. AP can’t afford to call this a genocide. No news/corporation is brave enough to stand up to the genocide because it’s gonna hurt their bottom line.
misterdoctor@lemmy.world
on 30 Jun 22:14
nextcollapse
I was going to link their merch store so people can keep supporting them, but almost everything is already sold out lol
Running shirts tend to be made of nylon or polyester. Unfortunately I tend to hang on to my clothes a very long time so all the tags are worn away and I can’t check, but I’m pretty sure all my running shirts are one of those.
Cotton is particularly bad because it chafes and it hangs on to sweat rather than wicking it away.
Of natural fibres, you probably want wool. I’ve particularly heard good things about merino wool. But avoid cotton for running.
I’ll get downvoted for this but what im about to say is an undeniable fact.
Chanting death for anyone is inciting violence and murder, UK governments and police can’t be allowing that, especially as there is no death penalty.
Yes I know, the IDF incite violence and murder, but does that make it OK to do in UK?
led crowds in chants of “free, free Palestine” and “death, death to the IDF”
[The BBC said:] “The antisemitic sentiments expressed by Bob Vylan were utterly unacceptable ... "
[Starmer said:] “appalling hate speech.”
"Free Palestine" is not antisemitic. Criticism of a nation state's armed forces is not antisemitic. Especially when those armed forces are objectively committing genocide.
lupusblackfur@lemmy.world
on 30 Jun 23:43
nextcollapse
Pfft…
Only the rational and reasonable buy into what you’re putting forth here…
Which completely and entirely excludes any/all MAGAts and other assorted fascist/authoritarian types that appear to be consuming gov’ts globally.
Also excludes pretty much every establishment Democrat
NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz
on 01 Jul 07:57
collapse
Of course, it is both sides, the Republicans and the Democrats, who are causing a problem in the UK government.
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 01 Jul 13:28
collapse
Also excludes quite a lot of Liberals - a lot of people who’ve been brainwashed over the last 3 decades with the fake “leftwing” idea that “it’s not Racism if your descriminiatory acts and judgements favor those of specific races rather than disfavor those of specific races”, are having trouble processing the situation were the self-proclaimed representatives of an ethnic group they’ve learned to see as “victims” and “good people” are actually committing an extreme Genocide along ethnic lines.
I mean, many have change to the Humanist position that “people should be judged and treated based solely on what they support and they do, independently of race”, by many if not most are still ridding the whole “the entire race are victims” idea and de facto supporting Genocide by attacking the critics of the depraved genocidal actions of the self-proclaimed representatives of the “victim race”.
This shit would have never reached this level if it was only the openly Fascist being Racist.
dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
on 01 Jul 09:14
nextcollapse
I think the issue is the other chant, now I’m not saying that is anti-Semitic at all as that’s insane.
For what it’s worth fuck the IDF, terrorist assholes.
You’re bubbled, it’s undeniably controversial to chant death to people, especially groups of people. By debating it you agree it’s controversial, do you even know what the word means?
Please don’t try to say I’m denying Palestinans the right to self defence because I don’t want to chant death to their oppressors. My friend, that’s a wild statement and you should pipe down
Next you’re going to tell me I’m pro Russia because I don’t agree Putin should be assassinated
rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
on 02 Jul 11:58
collapse
If you think russian soldiers can’t be killed in ukraine then yes you would be pro russia
How did you go from talking about an English artist performing in England, chanting towards an English crowd about killing foreign army, to asking if I support defending your own nation aganst invaders
Do you think I’m supporting the horrors of the IDF because I refuse to stand up and chant death to the IDF?
I go to free palistine protests in my own country, I probably do more than most but I draw the line at calling for murder.
Extremeism is scary
rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
on 02 Jul 15:50
collapse
How stupid can you be. You want paleatinians do do nothing when the idf is comiting all the crimes? Death to idf can only happen in palestine where they have the right to kill invaders
To be honest I had never heard of Bob Vylan before, so the people screaming they should be banned (so they dont become known?) reached the opposite effect, at least for me personally.
dependencyinjection@discuss.tchncs.de
on 01 Jul 09:13
nextcollapse
Same never heard of them, but now streaming them to show support. They’re playing in my city on Saturday so might pop down.
Vizzerdrix@lemmy.world
on 01 Jul 09:17
nextcollapse
Yeah, discovered an interesting artist through this
I’ve been upping the listenership for kneecap and Bob vylan for about a month now. Saving for hard copies to help support. This all reminds me of the satanic panic that was so common when I was a kid. Such fuckery to suppress an idea.
statlerwaldorf@sopuli.xyz
on 01 Jul 16:09
nextcollapse
Yep. Just picked up their albums on Bandcamp to support them. I grew up with Rage Against the Machine and my little mind was blown when Evil Empire came out - these guys remind me of them.
dropped_packet@lemmy.zip
on 02 Jul 02:59
nextcollapse
I hope the entire world’s eyes are by this point open to the hypocrisy of the West. Kneecap and Bob Vylan being labeled outrageous or on trial for terrorism for… words, while weapons shipments continue to flow to the IDF, Netanyahu (with an arrest warrant for war crimes) flies through EU airspace unhindered, and the bombing of civilians in Gaza generates less news than a chant at a concert. Absolutely disgusting.
Disgust and rage doesn’t come close to expressing my emotions.
This is the capitalist hydra they created- money equals morality. How can we be evil if we’re making so much money selling weapons to a genocidal terrorist state? What was that, you don’t like it? Sssh, if you hurt our cash cow we will hurt YOU.
Worshipping the golden fucking calf.
Capitalism is a form of government where instead of citizens having one vote each, they have one vote per dollar they own. It’s a cult, and it’s a fucking cancer, and it will kill us all if we don’t stop it.
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 01 Jul 13:17
collapse
Oh, don’t discount the Racism.
People aren’t being investigated by police for criticizing Russia.
If it was only about money, they wouldn’t have reacted as they did to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine given all the money many were making from Russian fossil fuels and mineral wealth.
The big difference in the reaction to Russia’s Genocide in Ukraine and to Israel’s Genocide in Gaza (which is way worse both in numbers and in how many of the civilians being murdered are small children) is that in Ukraine the victims are Whites as are the aggressors whilst in Gaza the victims are (brown) Muslims whilst the aggressors are Whites.
At least amongst the power elites, especially in places like the US, UK and Germany, White Colonialism isn’t just this old 19th century practice we fortunatelly left behind, rather it’s a way of viewing the world which very much alive and widelly held.
ExploitedAmerican@lemmy.world
on 02 Jul 04:49
collapse
Racism is an inherent component of capitalism,
Especially it’s late stage of decline, fascism where those in power obfuscate their culpability by redirecting the ire of the masses towards scapegoated social classes
Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Jul 09:44
collapse
Everything that can be used to manipulate the masses is a tool of Capitalism.
Even anti-Discrimination movements are often made a tool of Capitalism (haven’t you noticed all sorts of exploitative large companies going “rainbow”?).
Here however, I don’t think the masses are siding with the Genociders. Granted a ton of effort has been put into trying to make the masses do so (more so in some countries than others), but the scale of the depravity of the Genociders is so extreme and undeniable that it isn’t working anymore, so it’s mainly the power elites who keep supporting Israel.
Mind you, Racism is definitely being leveraged (both Islamophobia and the positive prejudice towards Jewish People which is really just a cultivated variant of pro-White prejudice - “Israel has Western Values”) to try and manipulate the masses, but I don’t think the drive amongst those in power for pushing the masses that way is a Capitalist one as it’s not clear that all that much is gained monetarily from supporting these Genociders.
Racism is a tool to manipulate the masses, but the power elites themselves aren’t immune to it and hence are also driven by it at times, Capitalism or no Capitalism.
Look, I agree with their sentiment and want to commend them for using their platform for advocating an end to this genocide. The US should absolutely not be considering it in granting visas.
But, yeah, maybe don’t do a chant calling for death to another country’s military. Don’t make it so easy for them. Make them ban you for simply saying “free Palestine”. Don’t let them say it’s because you made threats of violence. Bring the majority with you, don’t push them away.
tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 01 Jul 18:51
nextcollapse
In 1944 would it be controversial for someone to chant “Death, death to the SS!”? If people can’t see the genocide and see that military force against the genociding organization is necessary to stop it by now then they won’t be ‘brought to our side’ by using a kinder chant. It’s a type of civil disobedience, it brings more attention to the BBC and UK’s complicity in the genocide.
What would it have accomplish? What does it accomplish?
It gets Lemmy known as a hotbed of terrorism. It may cause legal and/or political trouble for the admins of the site. And what does it do that other words don’t?
Look at all the discussion here and consider how it is or isn’t limited. What’s happening in Gaza is a genocide. The IDF is responsible for it. What do death chants contribute to that conversation?
rumimevlevi@lemmings.world
on 02 Jul 02:59
collapse
controversies make people talk so they never forget what is happening in Gaza and who is responsible for . Denying the right to say death to a terrorist army committing a genocide is to deny Palestinians the right to self defense .
In 1944 would it be controversial for someone to chant “Death, death to the SS!”?
Um… Yeah. I’m thinking it would have gone down more or less the same as it is now. Loads of sane people agreeing with the sentiment, but the ones running the show wouldn’t and their bootlickers would follow suit.
land@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Jul 01:37
nextcollapse
This kind of reasoning immediately makes me think of MLK’s famous quote:
the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action
I wonder what the term is for anti-palestinian? The equivalent to anti-Semite but for Muslims I guess? Just Islamophobia? That doesn’t have a good ring to it. We need a good term to use that Palestinians can play the racist card with for the next 100 years like Israel does.
GalaxySurfer@lemmy.world
on 02 Jul 03:32
nextcollapse
Whatever it is, the only way to win this battle is for people to start using that new word to call out people who are quite obviously hateful. With enough use of the word over the years, it will have the same shameful effect as what they have done with the word the other side uses
SulaymanF@lemmy.world
on 02 Jul 04:05
nextcollapse
Good question. It’s a venn diagram of Islamophobia, anti-Arab racism, and anti-Palestinian hate.
America is not only the enabler of Israel, The American government is the one pulling the strings. America is as much a Nazi state as Israel, And when they are done with the Middle East they will find someone else to exterminate. We are all in danger.
Not only US, Germany, France, UK, Italy, and most likely Canada, and Australia. With a genocide you don’t get to stay silence, if you are not even condemning the genocide, that mean you are part of the bad guys.
Siresly@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 02 Jul 07:47
nextcollapse
The inhuman madness of finding the problem regarding this situation to be protestors of Israel’s genocide, and not the genocide, is as absurd and abhorrent as it is overwhelming.
Let’s get outraged about and strive to cancel and imprison someone who used violent language at a force that is mass-murdering children. Just surreal. What leads someone to become this fucking detached from their humanity? It’s just incomprehensible.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works
on 02 Jul 08:41
nextcollapse
Okay, I’m gonna say something very controversial, and the mods might not like it, but hear me out:
Adolf Hitler deserved to die. If I had a gun and he was alive standing in front of me, I would have aimed the gun to his head, and repeatedly pull the trigger until I ran out of ammo, then reload, and keep shooting at him until I can confirm that he is indeed dead.
DEATH, DEATH TO ADOLF HITLER!
Tell me, is this “advocacy of violence”?
Mediocre_Bard@lemmy.world
on 02 Jul 14:42
nextcollapse
I am very interested in this pending response.
Wizard_Pope@lemmy.world
on 02 Jul 15:04
nextcollapse
I would say it is slightly. But only because of the part where you would keep shooting after reloading.
threaded - newest
Thank you for the sacrifice Vylan
Calling for death of any group is not allowed.
Gotta be fair to the genocide force of course.
Like they’re not an ethnic group or comprised of innocents. This is a force whose express intent is genocide and displacement.
Doesn’t matter. Calling for violence against any group is against TOS.
It’s a quote. From the guy in the article… you also didn’t remove the other people mentioning it here…
Gotta protect the poor organization formed explicitly for genocide…
Can’t see how you are doing exactly what the UK police is doing? 😂
Would you also just follow orders when the Nazis tell you to?
Edit: ……and my point was made. Orders successfully followed. 👏 👏 👏
That one got reported, the others did not, but since you mention it, I’ll check the rest of the thread, thanks!
Edit only one other comment advocating violence, it was also removed.
So I take it then, that any comment even vaguely in support of Israel will be removed as against the TOS? Because surely advocating in favour of genocide, even indirectly, is far worse than criticising the organisation actually committing that genocide?
Any comment advocating the destruction of Gaza or the Palestinians absolutely gets removed, fortunately there have been far fewer of those.
Similarly Russian and Chinese propaganda about Ukraine and the Uyghur genocide is also removed.
Speaking of Russian propaganda, is saying “Russian soldiers invading Ukraine should be killed” also bannable?
Saying anyone should be killed is removable, not bannable.
So is saying “Ukrainian should beat the Russian army” “removable”, then?
No, because that’s not a direct call to violence.
Let me give you an example:
Someone posts this story:
www.bbc.com/news/articles/cyvjj9lmq3zo
“Three killed in Ukrainian drone attack on central Russia”
“Three people have been killed and 45 injured following an attack by Ukraine on a factory in the city of Izhevsk - more than 1,000km (620 miles) from the border - Russian authorities say.”
User replies “Good.”
That’s removable. They are applauding the deaths of three human beings.
Alternately, someone posts this story:
cbsnews.com/…/russian-drone-strike-odesa-deaths-i…
“Russian drone strike on port city kills married couple, injures 17, Ukraine officials say”
“Russian drones struck the southern Ukrainian port city of Odesa overnight, killing two people and injuring at least 17, Ukrainian authorities said on Saturday.”
User responds with typical pro-Russia propaganda. Ukraine are Nazis, they started it, yadda yadda.
That’s also removable.
In what world is suggesting one army should attack another army not a “call to violence”?
Your rulings are just complete nonsense. There’s no consistency. You’re just applying it based on your own whims. One of which seems, based on how you’re applying it, to be “genocide is ok when it’s done to brown people”.
Again, nothing to do with genocide or anything outside the group. If you come here suggesting people deserve to be killed, you’re not going to find receptive moderation.
Your TOS do not prohibit it. It only prohibit call for violence against racial, ethnic groups and any minorities
Read the Sidebar, specifically Rule 6.
No, I know you won’t. Here it is, bolding is mine:
“Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.”
The IDF, being an occupying army, under international law is absolutely a legitimate target for violent armed Palestinian resistance. Legitimate target of violent armed resistance. It’s the law.
Great, go to Gaza and sign up. Don’t advocate for violence HERE.
Wait, you can’t even say a group should be eliminated? Not even people, but a group‽
Is “defund the police” also a bannable offence now?
No, because defunding the police is not an extermination program. Advocate for KILLING cops? That’s going to be removed with a quickness.
Destroying an army is not an extermination program either. It’s called war. Members of that group can choose to leave that group. It’s called deserting. Under international law, the UN charter, Palestinians fighting against the IDF, using armed violence against the occupation is a legitimate war. Are you denying the right of Palestinians to fight a war for their freedom?
Absolutely not, I’m denying lemmy users ability to say anyone should be killing anyone else as per your TOS.
Don’t like it?
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d9aa003b-2a89-4323-ba1b-7bc44912b3e7.png">
Or, apparently, causing property damage 🤦♂️
OK, got it. So, according to you and the rules of the community, Ukraine is supposed to defend itself with strongly worded letters to the editor. Maybe my ancestors who fought for Greek freedom and independence were violent extremists. Even got my comment removed by mod for saying as much. How lovely. The door. Of course.
I hope one day you will realize the double standard that you’re applying to the Palestinian struggle for freedom and how this double standard was part of the things that enable their Genocide. Hopefully by then, there will still be Palestinians in Palestine.
The door.
No, Ukraine can do whatever they need to do to throw off an illegal invasion and genocidal statements and actions.
YOU are not Ukraine, and if you’re going to participate here, you will abide by the rules of the community which explicitly do not advocate violence.
Palestinian can’t?
Palestine can also do what they want, they aren’t subject to the rules here. The people here will abide by our rules.
I’ll make it super simple:
(Lemmy.World Rules (World.Lemmy.World Rules)) . . . (The entire rest of the world, including Palestine, Israel, Russia, Ukraine… everyone)
If you’re here, you agree to our ruleset. If you’re not here, our rules don’t apply to you.
So if someone say death to hanas you will also remove the post right?
Absolutely correct. No wishing death on ANYONE.
The hardest one was when Henry Kissinger died, because, well, Henry Kissinger. LOL. Lots of reminders of “No celebrating death”, but I mean, it WAS Kissinger.
I’m confused about the rule can you explain it a bit more clearer?
These are contradictory statements, it makes no sense. When you say that “Ukraine can do whatever they need to do [in the face of] an illegal invasion and genocidal statements and actions” YOU are also saying that they can use deadly force. YOU are advocating violence on behalf of Ukraine. But if we flip the bit from Ukraine to Palestine suddenly it breaks the TOS?
I am not, Ukraine is outside this place, what happens outside this place does not need to conform to our rules.
If you’re going to participate, you will abide by the rules.
But we’re not talking about killing people. We’re talking about killing an organisation. If someone had said “death to Apple”, that is not the same as “death to Tim Cook and all his employees”.
We specifically ban calls for violence, if you argue “Death to Apple” in an environment where Apple stores are being firebombed, then yeah, we’d remove those statements too.
You can’t stop the mouvement and Palestinians has the right to self defense whatever you like it or not
I’m not interested in stopping anything outside bad behavior in the groups I moderate.
I have nothing to do with “the movement” and neither do you.
Does this include the Russian military?
What about indirect stuff such as “The Ukrainians should crush the Russian invaders” ?
Indirect stuff I generally let slide, other mods may or may not. Plausible deniability and all that.
But yes, the videos some other communities allow showing drone attacks on Russian soldiers, cheering when people get killed? We’d remove those.
Of course a top level post would be removed because we don’t allow video posts, but as a comment, I’d remove those too.
“Have the Rolling Stones killed, Smithers.”
Bob Vylan! Bloody auto spell.
Hell yeah, if you’re not ready to loose something you’re not protesting right.
What a shitty article. It’s so heavily biased in favor of genocide.
They are literally all doing this. There is more confected outrage about this than the actual slaughter of civilians by the IDF. I feel like I’m going mad.
They are engaging in an absolutely ridiculous campaign of gaslighting. It’s so outlandish and over-the-top that it would actually be hilarious if it was on a lighter subject matter rather than genocide, terrorism, and a litany of war crimes.
Happy cake day!
They didn’t even do the most basic of work to attempt to put forward a front of journalistic integrity. They didn’t give Vylan a chance to respond to the article.
There was a really interesting podcast on the AP style and its entrenched biases - but only available to subscribers:
canadaland.com/…/bonus-who-writes-the-rules-of-ne…
An article on the same topic:
currentaffairs.org/…/how-the-ap-stylebook-warps-r…
What did you want them to say? It’s not an opinion piece.
They should be more neutral in a non-opinion piece. They quote a lot more people saying pro-genocide things than they quote people saying anti-genocide things. They quoted pro-genocide politicians and pro-genocide BBC staff. They did not give the musicians any opportunity to respond to the article.
Let’s consider the two positions mentioned in this paragraph:
Israel should stop committing genocide
Israel should continue committing genocide, and position 1 is antisemitic
The first position is described as “pro-Palestinian”, as if these protesters support the Palestinian military (Hamas) and want them to win. This is incorrect. These people mostly just want the genocide to end.
The second position is a shitty opinion, but also contains an overt falsehood. It’s an objective fact that it’s false, and that fact should be reported in the story, but it isn’t.
I agree that they didn’t use enough anti-genocide supporters, their sources were one sided.
But your second critique would require a complete rewrite and would change the article completely.
I agree that pro vs anti genocide is the better way to approach the conflict, however, for reporting purposes, it makes more sense to call it an Israel vs Palestine conflict. Calling it pro vs anti genocide means that you have taken the position of calling the conflict a genocide (which I agree with, it is genocide). But as the article states, Israel does not see this as a genocide and neither do a lot of governments.
AP describes the conflict as a war of Israel against Hamas. Not a war of Israel against Palestine. This could be interpreted as 1) diminishing the genocide and 2) reporting on one specific facet of the conflict ie Israel against Hamas forces, which it could be argued, is a different conflict than Israel against the Palestinian people. This also means that by the articles definitions, Palestinian supporters are different than Hamas supporters.
Their second position does not say one side is correct and one side is wrong. They say
Israel and their supporters, not the AP describe protests as antisemitic.
Critics, not the AP, say Israel is incorrect in their antisemitic descriptions.
If the article did what you wanted, it would be an opinion piece about how we need to call the conflict a genocide, and all future reporting should reflect this.
I don’t think this article is very supportive of the Palestinian people’s struggles. I also don’t think it supports the Israelis. It is tip-toeing the very fragile line of (falsely accused) antisemitism that they write about. It isn’t perfect, but it’s unfair to call it pro Israel.
Also I think what is really shitty is that outlets report on a genocide in this matter. But this article was about the response to Bob Vylan. I think both of us are angry about how anything related to the genocide has to be reported as the Israel Palestine conflict unless you want to receive an extremely negative response to your reporting.
Hell if we want to be all intellectual we can brand this as another symptom of the global capitalist system. AP can’t afford to call this a genocide. No news/corporation is brave enough to stand up to the genocide because it’s gonna hurt their bottom line.
I was going to link their merch store so people can keep supporting them, but almost everything is already sold out lol
Death to the IDF.
bobvylan.myshopify.com is the link in case anyone wants it
Wait, I thought we hated Shopify? (Cause of the data breach.)
I have no idea, I was just fixing the broken link
Not to mention that they were happily selling Kanye West’s Nazi clothing until the press and social media called them out for it.
<img alt="Back of a T-shirt with a sketch of a running person. It reads “Bob Vylan Running Club” with bubbles that say “Run for peace” and “And from police”" src="https://aussie.zone/pictrs/image/697ccc4b-957f-4c7f-97b5-a635f2ea92ed.png">
Fuck that is an awesome design.
Shame it (a) appears to be cotton (not the material I want to be running in), and (b) is sold out.
It’s all sold out. Everyone wants a piece of Bob Vylan. I hope they do “death to the idf” t shirts.
You prefer plastic?
Running shirts tend to be made of nylon or polyester. Unfortunately I tend to hang on to my clothes a very long time so all the tags are worn away and I can’t check, but I’m pretty sure all my running shirts are one of those.
Cotton is particularly bad because it chafes and it hangs on to sweat rather than wicking it away.
Of natural fibres, you probably want wool. I’ve particularly heard good things about merino wool. But avoid cotton for running.
I feel like wearing that would make me a target.
Thank you, fixed it in my post 🙏
When did IDF become a protected minority group? Is saying “Death to Nazis” not allowed in the UK?
I’ll get downvoted for this but what im about to say is an undeniable fact. Chanting death for anyone is inciting violence and murder, UK governments and police can’t be allowing that, especially as there is no death penalty.
Yes I know, the IDF incite violence and murder, but does that make it OK to do in UK?
Did they say “IDF” or “IDF members/staff”? IDF isn’t a person, so maybe it’s more of a metaphorical death, as in dismantle the IDF.
I dunno.
I’ve thought about this, a metaphorical death/end to the IDF chant is completely acceptable. I guess it’s all down to intent
the artist chose “death” because it rhymes with IDF. so I wonder if it’s just one of those things
It may not be legally ok, but it is definitely morally ok to incite (and perform) violence against a genocidal force.
Crime is only legal if there’s a war. Or if you’re a cop. Or are rich and influential.
"Free Palestine" is not antisemitic. Criticism of a nation state's armed forces is not antisemitic. Especially when those armed forces are objectively committing genocide.
Pfft…
Only the rational and reasonable buy into what you’re putting forth here…
Which completely and entirely excludes any/all MAGAts and other assorted fascist/authoritarian types that appear to be consuming gov’ts globally.
🤡 🖕 💩 💩
Also excludes pretty much every establishment Democrat
Of course, it is both sides, the Republicans and the Democrats, who are causing a problem in the UK government.
Also excludes quite a lot of Liberals - a lot of people who’ve been brainwashed over the last 3 decades with the fake “leftwing” idea that “it’s not Racism if your descriminiatory acts and judgements favor those of specific races rather than disfavor those of specific races”, are having trouble processing the situation were the self-proclaimed representatives of an ethnic group they’ve learned to see as “victims” and “good people” are actually committing an extreme Genocide along ethnic lines.
I mean, many have change to the Humanist position that “people should be judged and treated based solely on what they support and they do, independently of race”, by many if not most are still ridding the whole “the entire race are victims” idea and de facto supporting Genocide by attacking the critics of the depraved genocidal actions of the self-proclaimed representatives of the “victim race”.
This shit would have never reached this level if it was only the openly Fascist being Racist.
I think the issue is the other chant, now I’m not saying that is anti-Semitic at all as that’s insane.
For what it’s worth fuck the IDF, terrorist assholes.
I’m sure “death to the IDF” is what some people have issues with rather than “free Palestine”
chanting death for any group idendity en mass will always be controversial, even if it’s for Nazis
I guarantee you can find droves of zionists that say “free Palestine” implies the destruction of Israel and is therefore antisemitic.
I know many zionists in my neighborhood Facebook group getting mad about events rising fund to Palestinians
Anyone who thinks those statements are one and the same is delusional and not even worth talking to.
If someone can prove to me they’re not a rational human they lose my interest
Correct.
No, chanting death to Nazi was never controversial. It wouldn’t even be controversial if it was death to the Russian army .
You are denying Palestinians right to self defense by opposing the chant death to the IDF
You’re bubbled, it’s undeniably controversial to chant death to people, especially groups of people. By debating it you agree it’s controversial, do you even know what the word means?
Please don’t try to say I’m denying Palestinans the right to self defence because I don’t want to chant death to their oppressors. My friend, that’s a wild statement and you should pipe down
Next you’re going to tell me I’m pro Russia because I don’t agree Putin should be assassinated
If you think russian soldiers can’t be killed in ukraine then yes you would be pro russia
I never said that, I don’t think that. I have no idea why you came up with that.
I said if. So do support the occupied figjting the invaders or not?
How did you go from talking about an English artist performing in England, chanting towards an English crowd about killing foreign army, to asking if I support defending your own nation aganst invaders
Do you think I’m supporting the horrors of the IDF because I refuse to stand up and chant death to the IDF?
I go to free palistine protests in my own country, I probably do more than most but I draw the line at calling for murder.
Extremeism is scary
How stupid can you be. You want paleatinians do do nothing when the idf is comiting all the crimes? Death to idf can only happen in palestine where they have the right to kill invaders
when did I say that? and now you’re name calling?
You’re not listening to anything I have to say and fabricating an argument which I’m not saying from absolutely nowhere
I don’t know why I bother trying to talk to people like you. goodbye
Never heard about something called deduction ?
Nwo is the old governments.
We need to start banding together and voting these pro-genocide politicians out of office.
Oh, AIPAC supports you? Enjoy getting primaried. Watching their heads spin when Cuomo lost to Mamdani was fucking gold.
fuckign catchy though
The chant has been living rent free in my mind for days now.
To be honest I had never heard of Bob Vylan before, so the people screaming they should be banned (so they dont become known?) reached the opposite effect, at least for me personally.
Same never heard of them, but now streaming them to show support. They’re playing in my city on Saturday so might pop down.
Yeah, discovered an interesting artist through this
I’ve been upping the listenership for kneecap and Bob vylan for about a month now. Saving for hard copies to help support. This all reminds me of the satanic panic that was so common when I was a kid. Such fuckery to suppress an idea.
Yep. Just picked up their albums on Bandcamp to support them. I grew up with Rage Against the Machine and my little mind was blown when Evil Empire came out - these guys remind me of them.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
Found their music thanks to this and I love it.
Can we rename the Streisand Effect to Vylan Effect now?
This song of theirs is fucking fantastic btw!
Holy shit, that’s good.
I hope the entire world’s eyes are by this point open to the hypocrisy of the West. Kneecap and Bob Vylan being labeled outrageous or on trial for terrorism for… words, while weapons shipments continue to flow to the IDF, Netanyahu (with an arrest warrant for war crimes) flies through EU airspace unhindered, and the bombing of civilians in Gaza generates less news than a chant at a concert. Absolutely disgusting.
Disgust and rage doesn’t come close to expressing my emotions.
This is the capitalist hydra they created- money equals morality. How can we be evil if we’re making so much money selling weapons to a genocidal terrorist state? What was that, you don’t like it? Sssh, if you hurt our cash cow we will hurt YOU.
Worshipping the golden fucking calf.
Capitalism is a form of government where instead of citizens having one vote each, they have one vote per dollar they own. It’s a cult, and it’s a fucking cancer, and it will kill us all if we don’t stop it.
Oh, don’t discount the Racism.
People aren’t being investigated by police for criticizing Russia.
If it was only about money, they wouldn’t have reacted as they did to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine given all the money many were making from Russian fossil fuels and mineral wealth.
The big difference in the reaction to Russia’s Genocide in Ukraine and to Israel’s Genocide in Gaza (which is way worse both in numbers and in how many of the civilians being murdered are small children) is that in Ukraine the victims are Whites as are the aggressors whilst in Gaza the victims are (brown) Muslims whilst the aggressors are Whites.
At least amongst the power elites, especially in places like the US, UK and Germany, White Colonialism isn’t just this old 19th century practice we fortunatelly left behind, rather it’s a way of viewing the world which very much alive and widelly held.
Racism is an inherent component of capitalism, Especially it’s late stage of decline, fascism where those in power obfuscate their culpability by redirecting the ire of the masses towards scapegoated social classes
Everything that can be used to manipulate the masses is a tool of Capitalism.
Even anti-Discrimination movements are often made a tool of Capitalism (haven’t you noticed all sorts of exploitative large companies going “rainbow”?).
Here however, I don’t think the masses are siding with the Genociders. Granted a ton of effort has been put into trying to make the masses do so (more so in some countries than others), but the scale of the depravity of the Genociders is so extreme and undeniable that it isn’t working anymore, so it’s mainly the power elites who keep supporting Israel.
Mind you, Racism is definitely being leveraged (both Islamophobia and the positive prejudice towards Jewish People which is really just a cultivated variant of pro-White prejudice - “Israel has Western Values”) to try and manipulate the masses, but I don’t think the drive amongst those in power for pushing the masses that way is a Capitalist one as it’s not clear that all that much is gained monetarily from supporting these Genociders.
Racism is a tool to manipulate the masses, but the power elites themselves aren’t immune to it and hence are also driven by it at times, Capitalism or no Capitalism.
No I’m sure that’s an absolutely wonderful use of their time. Maybe they can post about this on Twitter rather than the 3g of weed that they seized.
Look, I agree with their sentiment and want to commend them for using their platform for advocating an end to this genocide. The US should absolutely not be considering it in granting visas.
But, yeah, maybe don’t do a chant calling for death to another country’s military. Don’t make it so easy for them. Make them ban you for simply saying “free Palestine”. Don’t let them say it’s because you made threats of violence. Bring the majority with you, don’t push them away.
In 1944 would it be controversial for someone to chant “Death, death to the SS!”? If people can’t see the genocide and see that military force against the genociding organization is necessary to stop it by now then they won’t be ‘brought to our side’ by using a kinder chant. It’s a type of civil disobedience, it brings more attention to the BBC and UK’s complicity in the genocide.
What would it have accomplish? What does it accomplish?
It gets Lemmy known as a hotbed of terrorism. It may cause legal and/or political trouble for the admins of the site. And what does it do that other words don’t?
Look at all the discussion here and consider how it is or isn’t limited. What’s happening in Gaza is a genocide. The IDF is responsible for it. What do death chants contribute to that conversation?
controversies make people talk so they never forget what is happening in Gaza and who is responsible for . Denying the right to say death to a terrorist army committing a genocide is to deny Palestinians the right to self defense .
Um… Yeah. I’m thinking it would have gone down more or less the same as it is now. Loads of sane people agreeing with the sentiment, but the ones running the show wouldn’t and their bootlickers would follow suit.
DEATH TO IDF
This kind of reasoning immediately makes me think of MLK’s famous quote:
hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/060.html
You’re gonna compare chants at a festival to MLK? Come on.
Meanwhile, the nazi IDF can come and go and take a break from genocide in the US and the rest of the these European countries
I wonder what the term is for anti-palestinian? The equivalent to anti-Semite but for Muslims I guess? Just Islamophobia? That doesn’t have a good ring to it. We need a good term to use that Palestinians can play the racist card with for the next 100 years like Israel does.
Whatever it is, the only way to win this battle is for people to start using that new word to call out people who are quite obviously hateful. With enough use of the word over the years, it will have the same shameful effect as what they have done with the word the other side uses
Good question. It’s a venn diagram of Islamophobia, anti-Arab racism, and anti-Palestinian hate.
Not sure, but on a side point I reject any “anti semitism” claim because:
usually its just used to try to silence you
they’re the ones anti semitic because Palestinians and arabs are semitic.
So maybe actually we should re-purpose antisemitism.
TIL. Thank you.
Israel will be remembered in the History books the same way Germany circa 1930’s is today.
Not if the fascists keep winning.
“From the river to the sea, Inshallah one day Palestine will be free!” Yeah what a vicious chant.
C.E.A.R.T.A. and Death Death to the IDF!
America is not only the enabler of Israel, The American government is the one pulling the strings. America is as much a Nazi state as Israel, And when they are done with the Middle East they will find someone else to exterminate. We are all in danger.
Not only US, Germany, France, UK, Italy, and most likely Canada, and Australia. With a genocide you don’t get to stay silence, if you are not even condemning the genocide, that mean you are part of the bad guys.
The inhuman madness of finding the problem regarding this situation to be protestors of Israel’s genocide, and not the genocide, is as absurd and abhorrent as it is overwhelming.
Let’s get outraged about and strive to cancel and imprison someone who used violent language at a force that is mass-murdering children. Just surreal. What leads someone to become this fucking detached from their humanity? It’s just incomprehensible.
Okay, I’m gonna say something very controversial, and the mods might not like it, but hear me out:
Adolf Hitler deserved to die. If I had a gun and he was alive standing in front of me, I would have aimed the gun to his head, and repeatedly pull the trigger until I ran out of ammo, then reload, and keep shooting at him until I can confirm that he is indeed dead.
DEATH, DEATH TO ADOLF HITLER!
Tell me, is this “advocacy of violence”?
I am very interested in this pending response.
I would say it is slightly. But only because of the part where you would keep shooting after reloading.
Today on the menu we have pureed Hitler à la Inglorious basterds.
Nooo poor Hitler :(
Mods can’t stop the mouvement
Israel has killed at least 100 people waiting for aid since dawn.
W Rappers L UK
Death Death to the IDF
This was on the mind of Hamas fighters on October 7th. It actually resulted in lots of death to Palestinians.
Peace and coexistence brings life, future, and prosperity to Palestinians, not eternal war.