“Fifty terrorists arrived in vans, dressed in military uniforms,” she said.
It is not far from the Gaza Strip, from where Hamas fighters crossed over at dawn to launch their attack. They infiltrated towns and villages, taking dozens of people hostage.
How is that possible to get that many armed people and vehicles across THAT border? I have never been there, I only know pictures of parts of the border from media, with barb wire fences, walls, concrete blocks, surveillance cameras, military checkpoints. Pretty much a border made to prevent anything like this.
Does anyone have further information where or how they managed to get that many people with that much equipment into Israel?
Mvlad88@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 16:04
nextcollapse
Easy, if your country is run by a corrupt, authoritarian leader like Netanyahu, you will end up with corruption, laziness and ignorance in the whole governmental system.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 16:05
nextcollapse
A lot of information is speculation, misunderstandings, and outright FUD
But WSJ are generally reputable and this lines up with a lot of what I have seen discussed in various OSINT forms. www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjhMAMAPgeM
But basically: Coordinated attack, blowing holes in walls, and successfully attacking checkpoints.
Everyone wants to paint this as a huge failure and massive incompetence by the idf. And… it is. But it is also a largely unavoidable one. Because that concrete and barbed wire wall is basically the entire “no man’s land” between Gaza and israel. And without leveling even more of Gaza (about that…), there is no real defense against that. A breach is “easy” if you are willing to sacrifice your own lives and then it is a matter of getting forces through. It won’t be enough to “take israel” but it is enough to launch terrorist attacks and even capture hostages.
PipedLinkBot@feddit.rocks
on 08 Oct 2023 16:06
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AttackPanda@programming.dev
on 08 Oct 2023 16:05
nextcollapse
I am very curious as well. I read in the AP that the government is getting a lot of scrutiny over that at the moment but hasn’t provided any responses. All I have heard was that it was a well planned and coordinated attack so maybe the use of electronic warfare along with an initial attack on monitoring stations? Very interested in reading the report once more information is available.
moftasa@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 16:10
nextcollapse
I read they used motorised paragliders to cross over the border fence. The vans may have been captured afterwards. But this is my guess and I have no idea if there were forces that managed to overpower israeli forces controlling checkpoints.
Jessvj93@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 20:03
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On top of bulldozers and explosions blown in the gate.
Blastasaurus@lemm.ee
on 08 Oct 2023 16:25
nextcollapse
I would imagine there is a less secure border running through the desert, not unlike the US-Mexican border.
thefartographer@lemm.ee
on 08 Oct 2023 17:06
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I can’t tell you exactly what happened to let this particular breach happen, but from what I’ve seen myself and what I’ve heard from family:
There are many security checkpoints like the one where my cousin got stabbed (in his vest, he’s ok!!!) Palestinians are guided through essentially storage containers and checked by members of the IAF on their way to work or whatever reason they have to visit what we’ll agree to call Israel merely for these explanations. While heavily guarded, these points would be incredibly easy to breach if you’re willing to sacrifice enough lives through drastic enough of measures.
While many are heartless regarding the situation the Palestinians have been put in, the Israelis aren’t totally emotionless. Some parts of Palestine are quite cultural and beautiful, so the walls are more like fences so that the Israelis and tourists can appreciate the aesthetics created by the oppressed population.
Remember the rule of 80/20: the top 20% of the areas get 80% of the resources due to wealth inequality. While many areas have perfectly adequate infrastructure, many places have over-the-top security and infrastructure, leaving some places to be underfunded and dilapidated. It’s not totally unbelievable that people could get over, under, or through the walls.
People get into Israel “illegally” all the time. These holes in the security are quickly found and patched up because the person who crossed the border is quickly collected and questioned. I’d reckon that if more patient members of the population took the time to construct more effective modes of crossing the border, they wouldn’t be discovered due to ignorance, allowing a large crossing briefly. When you’re relying on opposition telling on themselves, you don’t know what they don’t tell you.
Sudden strength in numbers with little broadcasting would be enough to overwhelm some crossing areas.
Ultimately, something like this was bound to happen eventually, primarily due to the leadership of king Netanyahu and the poisoned minds of the Israeli population. I’m not saying that all people in Israel are inhuman, but the constant barrage of belittling talking points about the Palestinians have caused even some of my more sympathetic family members to begin believing some of the propaganda that allows atrocities against other humans to go relatively unopposed. The way that they’ve learned to justify these things to themselves is shocking to me, especially when they follow up toxic sentiments with, “most Palestinians are incredible people and all of Palestine deserve peace.”
Also, if you’ll allow me to put on my tinfoil hat for a moment: with all of the egg that’s been all over Netanyahu’s face recently, a war is a really great way to garner support and deflect attention from his scandals. I wouldn’t be surprised to eventually learn that there was plenty of intelligence about this attack and they were dismissed as lacking credibility and whatnot. I’m not saying that I 100% believe that Netanyahu possibly had a hand in these attacks happening, but I do know that he’s been talking about, hoping for, and probably needing a war for quite some time to empower his corruption and further genocide a population for which he harbors incredibly disgusting feelings.
Dusktracer@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 20:23
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Thank you for this explanation. It helped illuminate some of the larger questions I had regarding this event!
guyrocket@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 16:19
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Hard to believe Hamas planned to attack a peaceful music festival. Guess they're not the brightest bulbs in the pack.
ubermeisters@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 16:22
nextcollapse
Is it really that hard to believe? Actually though??
guyrocket@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 16:27
nextcollapse
Yes. They had no thought to the effect it would have on public opinion? Do you see the other headline where Germany will review their aid to Palestine?
Hard for me to believe they would want to shoot themselves in the foot like that. Very short sighted.
DarkThoughts@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 16:44
nextcollapse
Can't blame Germany here. One of the victims was a German woman, which was later seen on the back of a truck, all of her limbs broken / deformed, just in underwear and with a deep wound in the head, paraded around and spat at from even civilians.
guyrocket@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 16:56
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To be clear: I am NOT "blaming" Germany. It seems like a rational response to me.
DarkThoughts@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 16:58
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I know, I wasn't disagreeing with you.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 16:46
nextcollapse
hamas don’t care about public opinion. The PLO cared. The PLO was largely destroyed from within with much of the power and funding shifting to hamas (allegedly with israeli government support).
Iran allegedly gave them funding and helped them smuggle even more weapons in. They used these to engage in acts of terror. This will lead to more power and support from third parties. And the retaliatory strikes from israel will lead to more recruits from within whatever remains of Palestine when this is over.
But the goal is not to achieve freedom. Because hamas knows it can’t rule. At best we would have a debacle like in Afghanistan or any of the islamic state ruled regions/countries. They are just violent warlords who want all the power and “prestige”, the right to rape and murder anyone they want, and that is it.
And, much like with israel’s atrocities, it is really easy for people to ignore the evil shit hamas does because “they are an oppressed people fighting for survival”. That goes out the window when the oppression does.
The PLO, for all its flaws, wanted to become a government. And while they still exist, they are even less influential than the youtubers telling people what to feel about the past 24 hours or so.
guyrocket@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 18:00
collapse
Some men just want to see the world burn.
I get what you're saying and can accept that Hamas is this way. I am not up to date on them.
But I do think it is important to point out just how foolish and short sighted it is to be that way. It feels to me like saying the sky is blue but I think it should be said.
Puzzle_Sluts_4Ever@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 21:58
collapse
You’re still approaching this from a completely different, and rather privileged, position. You are expecting to live a long life and want things to be better and so forth
These are violent terrorists who know that, even if everything goes their way, they’ll likely die young. So it is about short term benefits and doing what they want now.
The music festival was symbolic, look at these people enjoying music at a decadent party, on our LAND, while our people can’t even leave this caged city…
The divide between the haves and have nots is stark, and its going to get people angry… I don’t agree with them, but 100% believe they targeted this festival to send a message to their own people
NewNewAccount@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 18:07
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People that are saying that Israel started it are not justifying the attack. They’re simply provided context and understanding about why it happened.
You treat people like they’re subhuman it shouldn’t be a surprise that they treat you like your life isn’t worth anything either.
ubermeisters@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 18:52
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No shit Sherlock is that what’s happening? Oh my God thanks for the clarification. The fact is it doesn’t matter because they’ve crossed and egregious line.
There’s no right coming from this. Nothing good’s going to happen from this. Only pain and misery for everyone. Both parties are stuck in a terrible struggle.
I don’t know the path to peace here, I don’t think anyone really does. That’s why we haven’t had peace for 50 years.
BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social
on 08 Oct 2023 17:53
collapse
Their explicit aim is the complete destruction of Israel. It is incredibly easy to believe. To quote the Hamas charter:
Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him."
Hamas is explicitly opposed to peace, and it's sole aim is to murder or expel every Jew from the land. Any supporting these attacks needs to asked if this the aim they really want to support.
theluckyone@lemmy.world
on 08 Oct 2023 19:01
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Hard to justify supporting either side, what with Israel’s actions over the years. There is no good side, and the losers will be the average citizens on both sides.
threaded - newest
Fucking gross, OP.
Blocked.
How is that possible to get that many armed people and vehicles across THAT border? I have never been there, I only know pictures of parts of the border from media, with barb wire fences, walls, concrete blocks, surveillance cameras, military checkpoints. Pretty much a border made to prevent anything like this.
Does anyone have further information where or how they managed to get that many people with that much equipment into Israel?
Easy, if your country is run by a corrupt, authoritarian leader like Netanyahu, you will end up with corruption, laziness and ignorance in the whole governmental system.
Corruption and competence are incompatible.
A lot of information is speculation, misunderstandings, and outright FUD
But WSJ are generally reputable and this lines up with a lot of what I have seen discussed in various OSINT forms. www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjhMAMAPgeM
But basically: Coordinated attack, blowing holes in walls, and successfully attacking checkpoints.
Everyone wants to paint this as a huge failure and massive incompetence by the idf. And… it is. But it is also a largely unavoidable one. Because that concrete and barbed wire wall is basically the entire “no man’s land” between Gaza and israel. And without leveling even more of Gaza (about that…), there is no real defense against that. A breach is “easy” if you are willing to sacrifice your own lives and then it is a matter of getting forces through. It won’t be enough to “take israel” but it is enough to launch terrorist attacks and even capture hostages.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=KjhMAMAPgeM
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
I am very curious as well. I read in the AP that the government is getting a lot of scrutiny over that at the moment but hasn’t provided any responses. All I have heard was that it was a well planned and coordinated attack so maybe the use of electronic warfare along with an initial attack on monitoring stations? Very interested in reading the report once more information is available.
I read they used motorised paragliders to cross over the border fence. The vans may have been captured afterwards. But this is my guess and I have no idea if there were forces that managed to overpower israeli forces controlling checkpoints.
On top of bulldozers and explosions blown in the gate.
I would imagine there is a less secure border running through the desert, not unlike the US-Mexican border.
I can’t tell you exactly what happened to let this particular breach happen, but from what I’ve seen myself and what I’ve heard from family:
Ultimately, something like this was bound to happen eventually, primarily due to the leadership of
kingNetanyahu and the poisoned minds of the Israeli population. I’m not saying that all people in Israel are inhuman, but the constant barrage of belittling talking points about the Palestinians have caused even some of my more sympathetic family members to begin believing some of the propaganda that allows atrocities against other humans to go relatively unopposed. The way that they’ve learned to justify these things to themselves is shocking to me, especially when they follow up toxic sentiments with, “most Palestinians are incredible people and all of Palestine deserve peace.”Also, if you’ll allow me to put on my tinfoil hat for a moment: with all of the egg that’s been all over Netanyahu’s face recently, a war is a really great way to garner support and deflect attention from his scandals. I wouldn’t be surprised to eventually learn that there was plenty of intelligence about this attack and they were dismissed as lacking credibility and whatnot. I’m not saying that I 100% believe that Netanyahu possibly had a hand in these attacks happening, but I do know that he’s been talking about, hoping for, and probably needing a war for quite some time to empower his corruption and further genocide a population for which he harbors incredibly disgusting feelings.
Thank you for this explanation. It helped illuminate some of the larger questions I had regarding this event!
Hard to believe Hamas planned to attack a peaceful music festival. Guess they're not the brightest bulbs in the pack.
Is it really that hard to believe? Actually though??
Yes. They had no thought to the effect it would have on public opinion? Do you see the other headline where Germany will review their aid to Palestine?
Hard for me to believe they would want to shoot themselves in the foot like that. Very short sighted.
Can't blame Germany here. One of the victims was a German woman, which was later seen on the back of a truck, all of her limbs broken / deformed, just in underwear and with a deep wound in the head, paraded around and spat at from even civilians.
To be clear: I am NOT "blaming" Germany. It seems like a rational response to me.
I know, I wasn't disagreeing with you.
hamas don’t care about public opinion. The PLO cared. The PLO was largely destroyed from within with much of the power and funding shifting to hamas (allegedly with israeli government support).
Iran allegedly gave them funding and helped them smuggle even more weapons in. They used these to engage in acts of terror. This will lead to more power and support from third parties. And the retaliatory strikes from israel will lead to more recruits from within whatever remains of Palestine when this is over.
But the goal is not to achieve freedom. Because hamas knows it can’t rule. At best we would have a debacle like in Afghanistan or any of the islamic state ruled regions/countries. They are just violent warlords who want all the power and “prestige”, the right to rape and murder anyone they want, and that is it.
And, much like with israel’s atrocities, it is really easy for people to ignore the evil shit hamas does because “they are an oppressed people fighting for survival”. That goes out the window when the oppression does.
The PLO, for all its flaws, wanted to become a government. And while they still exist, they are even less influential than the youtubers telling people what to feel about the past 24 hours or so.
Some men just want to see the world burn.
I get what you're saying and can accept that Hamas is this way. I am not up to date on them.
But I do think it is important to point out just how foolish and short sighted it is to be that way. It feels to me like saying the sky is blue but I think it should be said.
You’re still approaching this from a completely different, and rather privileged, position. You are expecting to live a long life and want things to be better and so forth
These are violent terrorists who know that, even if everything goes their way, they’ll likely die young. So it is about short term benefits and doing what they want now.
The music festival was symbolic, look at these people enjoying music at a decadent party, on our LAND, while our people can’t even leave this caged city…
The divide between the haves and have nots is stark, and its going to get people angry… I don’t agree with them, but 100% believe they targeted this festival to send a message to their own people
People that are saying that Israel started it are not justifying the attack. They’re simply provided context and understanding about why it happened.
You treat people like they’re subhuman it shouldn’t be a surprise that they treat you like your life isn’t worth anything either.
No shit Sherlock is that what’s happening? Oh my God thanks for the clarification. The fact is it doesn’t matter because they’ve crossed and egregious line.
Are you two?
How many wrongs make a right?
There’s no right coming from this. Nothing good’s going to happen from this. Only pain and misery for everyone. Both parties are stuck in a terrible struggle.
I don’t know the path to peace here, I don’t think anyone really does. That’s why we haven’t had peace for 50 years.
Their explicit aim is the complete destruction of Israel. It is incredibly easy to believe. To quote the Hamas charter:
Hamas is explicitly opposed to peace, and it's sole aim is to murder or expel every Jew from the land. Any supporting these attacks needs to asked if this the aim they really want to support.
Hard to justify supporting either side, what with Israel’s actions over the years. There is no good side, and the losers will be the average citizens on both sides.