No evidence of genocide in Gaza, UK lawyers say in arms export case (www.theguardian.com)
from HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works to world@lemmy.world on 13 May 19:35
https://sh.itjust.works/post/37905476

No evidence has been seen that a genocide is occurring in Gaza or that women and children were targeted by the IDF, UK government lawyers have claimed, as a high court case opened into the handling of arms exports controls to Israel.

They also suggested there was no obligation placed on the UK to make other states comply with international humanitarian law but only to ensure that no breach occured within its jurisdiction.

The government is seeking to defend itself in a judicial review brought over allegations that it acted unlawfully in continuing to sell F-35 parts and components to a global pool, even though some of those components might be used by Israel in Gaza in a way that the government regards as a breach of international law.

Much of the case will turn on the extent to which international law places obligations in domestic law.

#world

threaded - newest

Buffalox@lemmy.world on 13 May 20:04 next collapse

WTF? Even our government (Denmark) foreign minister is alarmed by what Israel is doing in Gaza, and he is traditionally very pro Israel!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

According to a United Nations Special Committee,[37] Amnesty International, and other experts and human rights organisations, Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people

This is so widely reported and acknowledged the only way to ignore it is extreme bias or more likely corruption.

It is also absolutely clear that Israel is committing war crimes regularly, there is zero doubt t about it, and the political leadership in Israel is wanted criminals because of it.

en.wikipedia.org/…/International_Criminal_Court_a…

On 21 November 2024, following an investigation of war crimes and crimes against humanity, the International Criminal Court (ICC) issued arrest warrants for two senior Israeli officials, Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister of Israel, and Yoav Gallant, the former Minister of Defense of Israel,

Please UK, don’t go as corrupt malignant and stupid on us as USA. 🙏

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 14 May 08:55 next collapse

Ever since Brexit I think it’d a little late for that.

Buffalox@lemmy.world on 14 May 10:12 collapse

Brexit was bad, but hopefully we can still work closely together. UK is still finding their footing after Brexit.
USA is a different more fundamental break of trust, which I would hate to see repeated with UK.
In most EU countries USA is now more unpopular than China!

UK is on a route where they are balancing EU and USA against each other, while completely forgetting that it was not EU that wanted the break, and EU is still their friend, and USA is not. just look how USA is treating Canada! It’s insane that UK is looking towards USA considering how unfriendly USA has become even to their closest ally!

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 15 May 09:10 collapse

The Leave Tory government pretty much aped the first Trump presidency in terms of policies, only as public school educated scions of the moneyed elites they were posh(ish) rather than loud and brash like Trump.

The New Labour government is currently aping the Democrat Party after Trump, only they’re possibly even more rightwing than the Democrats were in that period.

(And overlaying all this there are things like Britain having a far more extreme civil society surveillance system than the US and which, unlike in the US, was not walked back after the Snowden revelations but instaed was rectroactivelly made legal, plus Britain does not have a written Constitution so a simple Parliamentary majority gives close to absolute power).

If the trend continues the next UK Government will be led by Farage or an even more radicalized Boris Johnson trying to tear down whatever little Democracy the UK still has.

The core difference to the US is that Britain is and has been for long far more culturally heavy in “know your place” than the US (it now seems the post-War period of worker rights and a more egalitarian society was the exception, not the rule) and the British moneyed elites are far more dynastic in nature than the ones in the US (we’re talking centuries of upper class status being inherited, not a mere 2 or 3 generations).

Buffalox@lemmy.world on 15 May 09:37 collapse

If the trend continues the next UK Government will be led by Farage

What? Really? That guy is so stupid and disgusting I can’t fathom how he has even a single follower.

it now seems the post-War period of worker rights and a more egalitarian society was the exception, not the rule

Shit, I hope you are wrong, because that’s one of the things I was counting on to prevent UK from falling too deep.

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 15 May 10:08 collapse

I went to the UK in the 00s were I rode the boom, then the 2008 Crash, then Austerity and all the way to Brexit, leaving just before it came into effect.

My opinion of Britain when I moved there was very good, my opinion when I left was the the country had entered the final stage of post-Imperial decay and was fucked. If you look around at nations who were once heading empires (Italy, Egypt, Greece, even Spain and Portugal), IMHO you can get a pretty good idea of were ex-Empires end up in and how long the decay can last.

Corbyn elected leader of the Labour Party was my last hope for that country and the massive campaign to oust him involving pretty much the entire Press and most of the Parliamentary Group of his Party (who were all from the New Labour faction of the party) for me pretty much proved that the entire system is completelly rigged an unable to move anywhere but further rightwards. The behaviour of the New Labour faction after they stole power back from the leftwing of the party - mainly the purges - and subsequently in Government - more rightwing than ever, in some way straying into the far-right - just confirmed that impression.

Frankly given the highly propagandistic Press environment in the UK and what was already a deeply flawed partial implementation of Democracy to begin with, I really can’t see any path were the UK would become merely more like Scandinavia (i.e. more Social Democrat) rather than more Fascist - the tendency of the elites in Britain was always towards Fascism (just look at how much the loved the Nazi ideas back in the 1920s before Germany started invading neighbouring countries, with there even being a picture of the previous queen as a child being taught to do a Nazi salute by her uncle, the then King) and the “know your place” mindset never left the society, and to me all that has been happening since Thatcher - from the destruction of Unions to the capture and consolidation of the Press, down to the capture of the Labour party by the moneyed elites, consolidated by the anti-Corbyn coup and subsequent internal purges - has been the elites in Britain wresting back control by subverting the few working mechanisms of Democracy in Britain.

So far what I’ve expected when I left Britain in disgust after the Leave vote has been happening (though Corby was unexpected and a bit of hope, but the methods used to crush him just confirmed my impression of how thoroughly captured and subverted the system is in Britain), just slower than I expected.

I’m sorry for anybody who is a Leftwinger in the UK and doesn’t even have another nationality to be able to move to a place with an actual Future for themselves and their children.

Buffalox@lemmy.world on 15 May 11:04 collapse

You make a lot of good points, and I’m reminded that I learned in school that they consider there are 4 classes. UK Royalty, UK upper class and UK lower class and last is all foreigners. This was always a very strange concept to me, and I admit I didn’t really believe it. I thought it was some sort of tongue in cheek saying. This seems to be a lot like American exceptionalism.

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 15 May 13:39 collapse

That 4 classes thing definitelly matches my impression of the place (and in fact I think Brexit was to a large extent the product of the cross between foreigners - including Europeans - being seen as the lowest of classes and the way the English put a lot more energy into “keeping in their place” those they see as below them in the social ladder than in actually climbing the ladder themselves).

That said, nowadays there is a Middle Class, who do not think of themselves as Working Class (though they actually work for a living), the higher part of which (the Upper Middle Class) think of themselves as Upper Class, though said Middle Class which was the product of the strong turn Left of the country in the post-War period is now being destroyed along with the things that allowed its emergence out of the Working class in the first place.

America at least did not have the whole idea that “people should know their place”, quite the contrary even.

Here’s an interesting comedy sketch from back in the 60s, which is satirical hence based on how people think (and then taking the piss out of it) rather than pure fantasy and illustrates some of this mindset which as far as I can tell is almost the opposite of the mindset that American (used to) have.

As I see it, modern Britain somehow managed to combine the worst aspects of Europe with the worst aspects of America.

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 15 May 08:58 collapse

As I explained above, the leadership of the party currently in Government in Britain - the Labour Party - and hence the entire cabinet, literally owe their posts to a campaign of accusations of anti-semitism against the previous leader of their party (who was from the leftwing faction of the party rather than the neoliberal faction - aka New Labour - as the current one) with massive help from Israeli-linked Jewish Organisations in the UK.

That campaign was so extreme that at one point a Jewish Holocaust Survivor was accused of being an anti-semite as means to taint said previous leader by association and was kept going at full throttle through an election causing the Labour Party to lose it which ultimatelly brought down that leader. Over time it was shown that the party under that leader was actually less anti-semite than the general British society, but by then the damage was done and he had been ousted, with the neoliberal faction taking control of the party again (they have an anti-democratic system for controlling who gets to run for party leader, so they’ll make sure no leftwinger ever gets the chance again - the other guy only got to run as candidate to party leader to be the token opposition since nobody expected him to win it, but he did).

The current PM is the guy who got elected to lead the party following all that.

Effectivelly the British Government was bought by Israel, not with money but with Propaganda that leveraged the large Jewish community in Britain, specifically the most rightwing amongst them who are rabidly pro Israel. This is why the current British Government unwaveringly supports Israel and their mass murdering or amongst others tens of thousands of children.

I’ve lived for over a decade in Britain (and left with Brexit) and was even involved in politics there before I left (fair disclosure: I was a Green Party member) as well as having lived in other countries in Europe and in my opinion Britain has already gone “as corrupt malignant and stupid on us as USA” years ago, they’re just far posher about it (than both the US and pretty much all far-right politicians in the rest of Europe) plus they have far slicker propaganda, so people outside the country can’t really spot it easilly and those inside the country - most of whom are stuck in an English-language bubble as most Brits speak no second language - generally can’t tell how far to the Right not just their Politics but their Press is compared to most of Europe.

And don’t get me started on how the civil society surveillance aparatus in Britain revealed by Snowden was worse than in the US and in Britain, unlike in the US, they didn’t walk back on it at all but instead just passed a law to retroactivelly make the whole thing legal, the Editor of the main British newspaper in reporting those relevelations - The Guardian (which, by the way, is Liberal not Leftwing) - was kicked out and the Press suddenly went quiet on all of it and haven’t mentioned it since.

By the time I left Britain, I tought it was the country closest to Fascism in all of Europe (except perhaps Hungary) and the transition from a Government of the Tories (who were worse than Trump during their first presidency IMHO, only far posher) to a New Labour government (i.e. Labour under the Israel-installed leadership) barelly walked it back.

If you think about it, in some ways British politics is somewhat a mirror of the politics in America (and remember that Britain too has a First Past The Post electoral system) only less brash and loud, partly because the culture of the elites in Britain (especially England) is very heavy on inculcating in their children a certain way of being which is heavy on presenting a false image of oneself and saying the “right” things (just look up what the Brits mean with “Public school educated”, which by the way doesn’t mean educated in state schools but actually in private and very expensive schools).

Buffalox@lemmy.world on 15 May 09:32 collapse

Wow, you really paint a bleak picture, and I can’t even point to something and say you are wrong! 🙁
Actually I recognize all your points, except I was not aware the antisemitism thing was so bad? Remember it’s not all smear campaigns that actually work.
The first past the post system is really damaging to democracy, and you are right we are seeing that in UK just as much as in USA.
Still UK has a tradition of a more humane society and not as cutthroat brutal as USA, so I think the level of sociopathy in society is lower in UK than in USA.
But unfortunately this has clearly gotten worse in every way over the past decade or two. With increased surveillance, cutting social programs and NHS hard, and increased xenophobia.

The part about antisemitism, was that Jeremy Corbyn? IMO he was very much to blame for Brexit too, and he was himself a brexiteer AFAIK. He was a very poor candidate for Labour IMO.

Anyways I think there is hope for UK, they are traditionally a more social society, but Russian propaganda has really done a lot of harm, and COVID amplified it.
Hopefully the Russian interference will end, and that will make it easier.

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 15 May 10:33 collapse

Still UK has a tradition of a more humane society and not as cutthroat brutal as USA, so I think the level of sociopathy in society is lower in UK than in USA.

That’s the thing, it doesn’t.

The UK was incredibly inhuman in the time of the Empire, committing several genocides abroad (to the point that Churchill, before his greatest and highly celebrated moments during WWII, presided to once such Genocide in India) not just against the people who they ruled abroad but also against their own people (for example, they replaced Slavery with Indentured Servitude, a similar system but targetting their own poor and based on Debt, and who can forget the Workhouses of the 19th Century).

The post war period with a genuinelly leftwing Labour party, the growth of Unions, Worker Rights, broadenning coverage of Education and the creation of the National Health Service and Social Security, was the exception to literally centuries of crushing, extreme inequality and has been in reversion since the 70s.

What Britain does have is amazing cultural propaganda (unsurprisingly in the nation which IMHO, has the greatest Theatre culture in the World) that relentlessly pushes a whitewashed version of the nation (for example, all of productions about the Victorian era embelish it with none showing such details as how back then, when the lord and lady of the manor passed servants in a corridor, the latter had to turn to the wall and could not look at them).

The problems of Britain are far deeper and more ancient than mere Russian Propaganda (though that was a wonderful excuse for the local parties to excuse their at best ineptia after Brexit) and are entrenched in just how deeply stratified and conservative British Society (especially the English one) is, not to mention the quite high levels of Nationalism and delusions of National Superiority that are constantly fed by both the Press and Politicians.

(I was there during the Leave Referendum campaign and one of the problems the Remain side suffered was that the politicians campaigning for it - mostly from New Labour - had been in Government themselves and had used the EU as scapegoat for their own unpopular measures as well as eagerly participated in the whole blame-the-EU trend from the Press, so they if they openly mentioned most of the good things about the EU and British membership of it, that would go against the lies they themselves had once said about the EU)

Not to exonerate Russia, but most of the external support for Brexit came from America - for example Cambridge Analytica was paid by rich Americans, not Russia.

I mean, I used to think like you, and then I went to go and live in the bloody place for more than a decade and English society isn’t at all “social”, unless by social you mean Racist and incredibly stratified (think the Indian Caste System, though a bit less bad and not as overt). Things there really are massivelly rigged for inequality and very low social mobility. Probably explains why the social conquests of the post-WWII period were so easilly reverted and now even Labour is running around parroting “the Poor are lazy” propaganda and passing laws to punish the poor for being poor, IMHO the very opposite of “social”.

I could go on about the general behaviour I’ve observed in British society when it comes to were one is in the social ladder and others elsewhere in that ladder, or about the process through Public Schools and Oxbridge which makes sure the scions of the elites remain elite, but this is already far too long a post, so I’ll leave you with “just” this wall of text.

Buffalox@lemmy.world on 15 May 11:40 collapse

Clearly you have thought more bout this than I have, which makes sense since you lived there for a decade.
But to the defense of UK, I think very many considered non western countries primitive and uncivilized, so they needed to be treated as such.
Which is of course sick and immoral as hell, but it wasn’t something exclusive to UK. Also UK did give voting rights to women pretty early, only shortly after the Scandinavian countries, and way earlier than USA, which was founded on being a democracy!
But I was thinking mostly about the time after WW2, where as you say they made many improvements. There’s a HUGE difference in the culture of our societies in the west from before and after WW2.

Cambridge Analytica

What a shitshow! But it was British, so the bigger scandal here is probably that they helped Trump win against Hillary. But clearly an example of underhanded upper class controlling the masses.

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 15 May 13:17 collapse

Well, considering non-western countries primitive and uncivilized hence needing to be treated as such was a very popular “civilized (white, always white) man vs savages” centuries old fable used all over Europe to justify inhuman treatment of those in cultures deemed “uncivilized”, and still is today - for example, why do you think Israel as always pushed so hard the idea that Palestinians (not Hamas, the actual Palestinians) are “violent” and even “human animals”, which is really just a “civilized man vs savages” framing of their white colonialism (and hence justifies stealing the land from the “violent savages” and even the Genocide as “self-defense” from said “violent savages”).

If you think about it, claiming that your own culture is superior hence it is moral to members of that culture to lead “lesser” cultures, with the conquest and domination of said “lesser” cultures being used as proof of one’s cultural superiority culture is self-serving circular logic. I mean, it’s fair to claim that such culture is “martially” superior, but that’s not at all the same as “civilized”.

One needs to be very, very weary of self-serving proclamations of one’s own group’s “superiority” in any way (be it Culturally or Racially) as justification for conquest, pillaging and even murder of those in cultures one claims are not “superior”.

If one learns a bit about British History, the word “civilized” isn’t exactly they one that emerges: absolutelly, they were and are heavy on their own version of ritualism in the exercise of power (as seen in things like judges and barristers wearing wigs in High Court) but highly refined rituals isn’t the same as being civilized, at least not by the standards of the later half of the 20th Century when ideas like Humanitarianism and Environmentalism (more specifically “the love of Nature”) became widespread. As I said, Britain ditched Slavery (good) but did so by paying compensation to all slave owners (bad) and 30 years later created Indentured Servitude (almost as bad as Slavery) which almost nobody else had so in practice the didn’t stop slavery, they just replaced Chattel Slavery with a different kind of Slavery and yet nowadays they really try an extract the maximum positive optics from the first (and only good) of those acts whilst never mentioning the other two.

Akasazh@feddit.nl on 13 May 20:24 next collapse

Well of course Lawyers would say that. Defending amoral actions by their clients is their raison d’etre.

I’m more curious what the judges say tbh

MyOpinion@lemm.ee on 13 May 20:38 next collapse

As they walk over the dead bodies. Nothing to see here. Business as usual.

taladar@sh.itjust.works on 13 May 22:03 collapse

Business as usual.

Well, by the standards of the British Empire that could very well be considered true.

nocklobster@lemmy.world on 13 May 23:58 next collapse

Israel is trying to limit incidental harm to women and children? THEY ARE STARVING THE FUCKING REGION!

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 06:12 collapse

No no, you see, it’s a targeted starvation, they are only cutting power, medicine, water and food to the men… /s

b161@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 14 May 00:07 next collapse

The UK is participating in genocide.

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 14 May 17:35 collapse

The current leadership of the British party which is now in Government has a MASSIVE personal debt to Israel and Israeli-linked Jewish Organisations in Britain for their campaign to oust the previous leader of the party - the first actual leftwinger elected to it since the 80s - using accusations of anti-semitism which were so wild that at one point a Jewish Holocaust Survivor was repeatedly said to be an anti-semite for what he said in a conference for Palestine, as a means to claim that Labour leader was an anti-semite by association (they sat in the same panel in that conference).

Israel delivered Sir Keir Starmer the top position at the party which was the next in line to get into Government and hence his premiership and Sir Keir Starmer is paying them back by having Britain help Israel mass murder Palestinian children.

The very Prime Minister of the British Government (as well as pretty much the whole of the Labour leadership) has been bought by Israel, not with money but with the greatest favour in their lives.

Geetnerd@lemmy.world on 14 May 03:01 next collapse

Israel is a valuable strategic staging point for The West in the The Middle East. No Western Power will jeopardize access to it.

That’s why Israel’s behavior is tolerated, and Israel knows it.

And no, I’m not an Anti-Semite. Not all Jews are Israelis.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 04:06 next collapse

Yup Israel has always had a free pass cause they’re basically the only ally of west in broken and dangerous middle east.

Thats why Saudi Arabia is so fascinating - if they drag middle east out of swamp of incompetence they could make Israel redundant and take away its free pass.

Geetnerd@lemmy.world on 14 May 04:10 next collapse

They also funded the 9/11 terrorists. Fuck that apologetic bullshit.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 04:14 collapse

Not sure what that has to do with anything I said but sure

Geetnerd@lemmy.world on 14 May 04:19 collapse

Well, you were kissing their asses like they were the Saviors of The Middle East.

They’re not.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 04:24 collapse

That’s not what I said, maybe take a nap or something? You seem groggy

Geetnerd@lemmy.world on 14 May 04:49 collapse

Thats why Saudi Arabia is so fascinating - if they drag middle east out of swamp of incompetence they could make Israel redundant and take away its free pass.

Remember that part?

I’m not interested in conversing with you ever again. Goodbye.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 05:01 next collapse

Reading comprehension and mental healthcare of a true American lmao

Take care

dogslayeggs@lemmy.world on 14 May 15:39 collapse

You have very bad reading comprehension. The person you are quoting never praised Saudi Arabia and never said they were the saviors of anything.

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 06:10 next collapse

They already have that free pass, they just choose to use it to murder journalists, gays, aposthates and opress women, immigrants, non-muslims and political adversaries.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 08:05 collapse

I said absolutely nothing about free pass and Saudi Arabia - where are you getting that?

My point being is that Saudis connecting middle east to the west could make Israel redundant and too expensive to support. Is that clearer? There’s 0 opinions in this comment just a geopolitical observation.

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 08:24 collapse

I said absolutely nothing about free pass and Saudi Arabia - where are you getting that?

Well, absolutely nothing…

Thats why Saudi Arabia is so fascinating - if they drag middle east out of swamp of incompetence they could make Israel redundant and take away its free pass.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 10:54 collapse

Take away Israel’s free pass not take over. Jesus dude you have reading comprehension of a 3rd grader and that’s generous.

Take away does not mean “steal” or “take over”. Just like when your mom takes away your dinosaur figurines before dinner she’s not really playing out t-rex vs stegosaurus battles herself right?

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 11:10 collapse

If I take away your phone, who has your phone? Maybe you should write clearer and be a bit more respectful, not jumping to insults right away.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 11:19 collapse

Maybe you should take your advice and work on your reading comprehension before jumping to conclusions and trying to gaslight people. Bye

supernight52@lemmy.world on 14 May 12:44 next collapse

lol what a coward you are. Can’t defend or cede a point, so you run away.

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 14:14 collapse

My advice wasn’t about reading comprehension, so taking my advice would just make my writing clearer. As far as I can tell I was quite respectful and haven’t insulted you at any point.

And gaslighting has a very specific meaning, it’s not a “get out a discussion” free card. I cited everything I was commenting about.

Bye.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 06:25 next collapse

Yup Israel has always had a free pass cause they're basically the only ally of west in broken and dangerous middle east.

I fucking wonder who made it so "broken and dangerous". That aside the Middle East being "broken and dangerous" is a relatively recent phenomenon; the Israeli-Western relationship came to be because the Arab world mostly fell on the side of the USSR during the cold war.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 08:08 collapse

Ah yes it’s the west that did it! Not the oppressive local religion and failed culture, not that at all! /s

The perpetual victims while also being the greatest and god chosen too.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 08:11 next collapse

Ah yes it's the west that did it! Not the oppressive local religion and failed culture, not that at all! /s

Yes, exactly, good thing you're aware of that. It was the West, specifically America but also some Brits and Poles, blowing up Iraq that set this whole mess in action.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 08:22 next collapse

Sure it’s everyone’s fault but the guys who are beheading children lmao

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 08:27 next collapse

Who is that again?

futatorius@lemm.ee on 15 May 18:10 collapse

You forgot the incubator babies. Try harder.

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 08:27 collapse

Yep, Iraq was a oasis of peace and tranquility before dubya. Peace, and tranquility. And war. And terror. And some ethnic cleansing. But mostly the tranquility.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 08:33 next collapse

Iraq was never a good place to live after the Iraq-Iran war, but it wasn't in a fucking civil war either. Nothing Saddam's government did comes even close to this.

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 11:17 collapse

We have a very different view of Saddam Hussein I assume.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 11:21 next collapse

I know he literally committed genocide against Iraqi Kurds that one time, but that still doesn't come close to the sheer amount of death and destruction the West caused by violently overthrowing him. Just read the link in my reply and compare the numbers.

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 14:23 collapse

I know the numbers. If you take the deaths from the Iraq Iran war, the gassing of kurds and the direct deaths during the general repression, they are comparable. From 300k to 1M on each side, depending on the source.

Let alone the Kuwait war and the excess deaths caused by the corruption and mismanagement leading to lower quality of life and lack of services.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 14:48 next collapse

Wow, he really managed to outdo the war on terror. That's fair, but I don't know of any indication that he had the capability or willingness to do anything that flashy again, so America overthrew him after he'd been mostly pacified.

Tja@programming.dev on 14 May 18:17 collapse

He was staying quiet, but you never know what he (or his sons) could have done if they stayed in power. Not that the shitshow the Americans did was right, but it’s complicated… Poor Iraqis don’t have an easy life.

hark@lemmy.world on 15 May 04:07 next collapse

Saddam was backed by the US. In fact, during the Iraq-Iran war, the US was supporting Iraq while Israel was supporting Iran. The goal of the west (and Israel) has been to play Middle Eastern countries against each other in a prime example of divide and conquer.

shitmenot@lemmy.cafe on 16 May 08:01 collapse

So you’re not better than saddam. Got ya

Tja@programming.dev on 16 May 08:27 collapse

Sir, this is a Wendy’s restaurant.

shitmenot@lemmy.cafe on 15 May 10:20 collapse

We have different view of international laws I assume. Or morality.

But hey one day you’ll find them weapons of mass destruction. You liar.

futatorius@lemm.ee on 15 May 18:09 collapse

Saddam was a murderous psychopath. By most accounts, he killed a few thousand Iraqis during his time in power. Bush Jr killed 500,000 during the invasion and its aftermath.

Tja@programming.dev on 16 May 00:25 collapse

I wasn’t there, I just go by Wikipedia numbers which put it in the 6 figures.

futatorius@lemm.ee on 15 May 17:19 collapse

Ah yes it’s the west that did it!

There is a long history of Western interference in the Middle East, and yes, it’s the cause of at least some of the instability there.

InvertedParallax@lemm.ee on 14 May 09:42 next collapse

if they drag middle east out of swamp of incompetence they could make Israel redundant and take away its free pass.

Is that supposed to be some kind of joke?

Saudi Arabia is the MOST incompetent of the whole bunch!

It just doesn’t matter because they literally have more money than God.

They’re so ultra-inbred incompetent that they literally founded, funded and armed a terrorist group that made their first and foremost goal the fall of Saudi Arabia under an Islamic caliphate.

They learned to stay out of wars decades ago, because they’re too mentally damaged to fight them.

I mean, until they tried to genocide Yemen, and of course got their asses handed to them by unarmed goat-herders who are still infinitely less trash.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 10:57 next collapse

You seem wildly confused what competence we’re talking about here. Saudi Arabia by far is the most competent Middle East country when it comes to building relationships with the west, no?

supernight52@lemmy.world on 14 May 11:15 next collapse

No.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 11:20 collapse

First of all no, that'd be the UAE, but more importantly you don't need competence to build relationships with the West; you need to be a fucking sellout. Which most of the region is, but still, it's not a matter of competence.

drmoose@lemmy.world on 14 May 12:44 collapse

Yes geopolitics is about selling out to the evil capitalism scary spooky west! Don’t trip over your tank tracks.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 14 May 12:47 collapse

Yes geopolitics is about selling out to the evil capitalism scary spooky west!

When that geopolitics comes at the cost of ignoring an ongoing genocide on your doorstep (and a litany of other, less flashy manifestations of Western tyranny), yes that's true.

futatorius@lemm.ee on 15 May 17:17 collapse

They learned to stay out of wars decades ago, because they’re too mentally damaged to fight them.

The Saudis fought in the first Gulf War (though not in the second one). There were Iraqi incursions in northeast KSA near the Kuwaiti border, and Scud missile attacks on Dhahran/Al-Khobar. I am acquainted with a US general who commanded a tank battalion in that war. He said one of their orders was to shoot the Saudi tanks if they tried to run and hide. He said they had to do that twice before the rest got the message.

I mean, until they tried to genocide Yemen, and of course got their asses handed to them by unarmed goat-herders who are still infinitely less trash.

With the exception of some of the Bedouins, Saudis are soft. Yemenis are mean, qat-chewing sons of bitches who’ve been through a long civil war and who all seem to own AK47s. MBS’s genocide is accomplished entirely by aerial bombardment of largely civilian populations. Fighting house-to-house in Yemen would incur too many casualties, even if the Saudi armed forces were at the top of their game, which they most decidedly are not.

futatorius@lemm.ee on 15 May 18:16 collapse

It’s not unusual to see bootlickers on Lemmy, but sandal-lickers are relatively rare. How do you enjoy the taste of shib-shib?

[deleted] on 14 May 06:42 collapse
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feanpoli@lemmy.ml on 14 May 03:50 next collapse

Defense lawyers are ethically obligated to plead for their clients; just as Otto Stahmer denied overwhelming evidence to argue for Hermann Göring’s acquittal, despite his documented role as a chief architect of the Holocaust. Meanwhile, England acts as a co-belligerent in Palestine, supplying arms to Israel, vetoing ceasefire efforts, and challenging the ICC’s jurisdiction over crimes against humanity. Its refusal to recognize genocide follows a familiar pattern: admission would compel accountability for its own complicity.

Flyswat@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 14 May 07:02 collapse

Don’t forget active reconnaissance flights from Cyprus.

feanpoli@lemmy.ml on 14 May 09:35 collapse

Let’s hold the UK government to its own words.

Official UK statement (13 Oct 2023):

Prime Minister deploys UK military to Eastern Mediterranean to support Israel (gov.uk, archiveve.today, archive.org)

The UK government claims its military deployment, including surveillance flights from Cyprus, is for “supporting civilians to leave Gaza.” However, this aligns with Israel’s efforts to forcibly relocate Palestinians from Gaza, which many legal experts argue could constitute a war crime or even ethnic cleansing under international law.

Treczoks@lemmy.world on 14 May 06:21 next collapse

One cannot see what one does not want to see.

perestroika@lemm.ee on 14 May 09:04 collapse

Yes. These guys have a vested interest in their client selling F-35 parts, so they will try to paint white as black.

The interesting part will be whether the court accepts their reasoning.

DarkDarkHouse@lemmy.sdf.org on 14 May 14:23 collapse

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!” - Upton Sinclair

slaneesh_is_right@lemmy.org on 14 May 10:58 next collapse

That lawyer should be force to move there.

Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 14 May 15:42 next collapse

New Labour has fully transitioned the Labour Party to a Ethno-Fascist Genocide supporting Far Right party.

Almost every other week I get reminded of just how good my decision to leave Britain with Brexit was.

LordWiggle@lemmy.world on 14 May 19:09 next collapse

There’s no evidence there are trees in the forest.

There’s no evidence the earth is round.

Whateley@lemm.ee on 14 May 19:28 next collapse

I can show them ttlhe videos I’ve seen of fathers dragging the broken bodies of their children from burning rubble if they need evidence. Fucking ghouls.

A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world on 14 May 19:33 next collapse

Just like there is no war in Ba Sing Se.

altphoto@lemmy.today on 14 May 19:54 next collapse

We did however find many recently dug mini basements! There were lots of stinky people in them. We didn’t stop to ask because of the stink and I think you need to dig to go into the basements and many only fit one person. We did see a bunch of community basements and oh man those stunk! You know like road kill? Like that but worse! …hmmm…WAIT a god dammed minute! Those were bunkers! Wow! Incredible! And here we were thinking they were basements! But only some had a little house on them with a cross to fool us into thinking they were Christian! No! Those were bunkers!

SulaymanF@lemmy.world on 14 May 20:07 next collapse

Hmmm I wonder if they have any financial incentive to lie…

EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com on 15 May 02:33 next collapse

I’d like to hear from a nation that isn’t unfairly biased in favor of Israel.

TheFriar@lemm.ee on 15 May 03:16 collapse

You have. They’ve all said Israel is at least committing widespread war crimes, while plenty have said it’s a straight up genocide or apartheid.

mhague@lemmy.world on 15 May 11:33 next collapse

When I read through the American report, it detailed genocide by Israel. It painted a horrific picture with Israel holding up or “losing” food and medicine in order to starve civilians.

The report concluded with “There is no genocide.”

It’s what happens when there’s a genocide but you decide there isn’t one, but you still need to describe the genocide.

hedhoncho@lemm.ee on 15 May 11:38 next collapse

Of course there’s genocide. Palestine has been fighting for their homes since I was born. It’s so tragic

aeternum@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 15 May 13:43 next collapse

so what you’re saying is they’re fucking liars? Got it.

futatorius@lemm.ee on 15 May 17:03 collapse

Amazing how easy it is for some people to turn a blind eye when money’s to be made.