anteaters@feddit.de
on 24 Oct 2023 07:05
nextcollapse
So Egypt’s position is that the people in Gaza are subhumans who don’t deserve any rights?
jeena@jemmy.jeena.net
on 24 Oct 2023 07:20
nextcollapse
They believe in the Palestinians right not to be the victims of a genocide.
metaStatic@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 08:10
nextcollapse
should probably let a few more trucks in then
NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 09:35
collapse
That's on Israel. Egypt has been demanding to let aid in Gaza for a while, but the crossing can't be opened without Israeli agreement.
HeartyBeast@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 08:21
collapse
Not quite sure how you reached that conclusion from the article.
takeda@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 08:23
nextcollapse
The truth is that pretty much all countries in the region hate Palestinians, even the ones that cheer Hamas. They don’t cheer Hamas because they love Palestinians, but because they hate Israel even more.
You can see that none of the countries that supports Palestine are offering to take any Palestinian refugees. They can all die as far as they are concerned.
That’s how much the whole situation is fucked up.
Hyperreality@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 08:32
nextcollapse
They can all die as far as they are concerned. ... That’s how much the whole situation is fucked up.
Very fucked up. Additional examples of how fucked up it is.
NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 09:50
nextcollapse
Okay you're making up a lot of shit. While I hate El Sisi with all my guts his logic for not taking refugees is sound. Also, taking refugees means Gaza falls under Israel, because those people will not be allowed back in. Taking refugees in this situation helps Israel carry out their genocide.
Also, taking refugees means Gaza falls under Israel, because those people will not be allowed back in. Taking refugees in this situation helps Israel carry out their genocide.
How nice of Egypt to make that decision for the people of Gaza and refuse them refuge.
superguy@lemm.ee
on 24 Oct 2023 13:03
nextcollapse
I’d be willing to take in Palestinian refugees, but the government does not represent my interests.
What exactly is your evidence that somehow of ALL Arabs, Palestinians are “hated” the most? Trying to make it look like there is something genetically wrong with these people undergoing decades of apartheid? Like somehow how we justify murder depends on how we see those murdered and if you can’t see them as human beings then it is easy to make such dumb blanket statements.
dingleberry@discuss.tchncs.de
on 24 Oct 2023 08:34
nextcollapse
No, it’s that they did accept them in the past and Palestinians (or Hamas disguised as Palestinian civilians perhaps, I don’t know it’s very complicated) have tried to destabilise and overthrow their government.
Edit: can someone with more brainpower, no fibro fog and knowledge explain please?
It’s because Israel causes a forced mass exodus of Palestinians into other Arab lands with the right of return and they were never able to return. The attempt to drive Gaza’s population (which is already full of refugees who were driven to Gaza by Israel in the first place) are a war crime and are meant to displace them and ethnically cleanse them. Gazans should have the right to get care and shelter in their own homes or whatever is left of those homes now.
Israel may like to make it look like it’s a humanitarian thing to fling the doors open and have 2 million people kiss their homes goodbye… It’s not. It’s a war crime.
“Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, I don’t like being addressed as sir.”
GentlemanLoser@ttrpg.network
on 25 Oct 2023 10:58
collapse
Whoa wtf did you just assume someone’s rank
febra@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 07:17
nextcollapse
Refugees are a financial and societal strain on any country taking them. That is not to say that no one should take in refugees at all. We as humans should take care of other people running away from death. At the same time I can definitely see why a developing country like Egypt isn’t willing to take any refugees due to the immense implications that comes with.
Having said that, what I find very interesting as a European is that we, and our allies are poruing money and weapons into Israel, weapons which they use to carpet bomb and level Gaza to the ground, leaving over a MILLION people without homes in an already empoverished country where 70% of the population are refugees. Why aren’t we as Europeans saying anything to our “allies” over the pond pouring weapons into Israel? At the end of the day, if Israel continues with this campaign of ethnic cleansing these people will have to run somewhere, and some of them will end up here.
NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 12:02
collapse
That's the thing, over the years. Taking 2 million refugees at once is asking for them to die. Not gonna defend Egypt's behavior in post-1948 Gaza, but right now it's another story. There's just no way to take in that many people, not to mention that if they enter Hamas attacks will come from Sinai, causing retaliation from Israel in Sinai and you just have another war between Egypt and Israel.
joel_feila@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 12:03
collapse
Because international law is enforced to help powerful counties.
As a Turk, I find them right. If you support attacks to Syria, you shouldn’t be surprised when the Syrians come knocking at your door. If you support bombing Palestine, you still shouldn’t be upset. This is a natural phenomenon. It’s a matter of action and reaction.
Unfortunately the case of Syria applies to Turkey as well. We should have been impartial from the very beginning. However, Erdoğan, the leader of the Ummah, wanted to intervene, as usual.
gnutrino@programming.dev
on 24 Oct 2023 10:55
collapse
By that logic most Syrians would be knocking on Russia’s door…
US too. But why would US or Russia think about it while there is open border, welfare countries in EU? I’m pretty sure these both would prefer a non-stable, right wing managed EU.
SilentStorms@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 24 Oct 2023 07:43
nextcollapse
If we care about human rights we should be stopping the bombings. People keep treating this like an earthquake or a hurricane or something.
true, the attacks against the palestines should stop immediately. But the attacks from gaza and the surrounding areas should also stop. Its not like Israel has lived in peace for the past 20 years.
NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 09:33
collapse
Its not like Israel has lived in peace for the past 20 years.
Israel created its current situation. No kidding they actively funded Hamas (and, more commonly, allowed foreign money to reach them) and intentionally created conditions where nobody but them could govern, all so they don't have to bother with peace. Hell, Israel signed two ceasefires in the past, one in 2008 and one in 2012. Well Israel didn't follow those ceasefires so nothing came out of them. Then in the great march of return, Gazans once again tried peaceful solutions (which had already failed thrice), and their reward was getting shot by IDF snipers.
Just what are they supposed to do?
avater@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 09:58
nextcollapse
maybe not fire rockets into Israel? Killing civilians and taking hostages also did not help in this conflict I suppose. And let’s not forget it’s not only the Hamas that is fueling this conflict but Iran and some Jihad terror groups too…
We have Israel on one side of the conflict and they did their fair share of atrocities but they are only one side of this mess.
NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 10:18
nextcollapse
No, not what they're not supposed to do, what are they supposed to do? Because they've already tried peace multiple times and it didn't work. It's still not working in the West Bank.
which still sucks because of the civilian casualites. But how do you fight a terror organisation that is hiding behind their citizens and I dont say that mass bombing is the answer, cause I don’t have one. But I understand that there is a need to defend yourself from such terrorists.
medgremlin@lemmy.sdf.org
on 24 Oct 2023 12:41
collapse
Then perhaps Israel should have maintained their border security with Gaza instead of pulling IDF forces away to assist with the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. If the “settlers” didn’t need IDF protection for their raping and pillaging, the border of Gaza would have been better watched during when the Hamas attack happened.
uff…dont know how to respond that. Any valid source for those accusations?
Especially for the raping and pillaging under the watch of the IDF, cause this is some hefty shit.
filister@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 12:38
collapse
Can’t you guys keep this more civilized without insulting each other. People have different opinions and we should respect that even if we don’t fully agree with one another.
RickyRigatoni@lemmy.ml
on 24 Oct 2023 11:52
nextcollapse
You know the basic concept of cause and effect, right?
Well, palestinians are firing missiles into israel as an effect caused by israel firing missiles into gaza and west bank.
probablyaCat@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 12:03
nextcollapse
And what happened before that?
avater@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 12:24
nextcollapse
and Isreal is shooting missles as an effect of the missles send from Gazah every day. So what? You created an Ouroboros, congrats to that. This won’t end until either side stops.
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 12:37
collapse
If you really want to trace all this back to the root it was the Arab states that started the 1948 war that kicked all this off. I can understand why they did but still, that was what set us down this mess of a road.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 12:50
collapse
Root cause goes back further than that, but also having your land cut up by colonials and then kicked out would absolutely piss off the Arab popular.
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 13:04
collapse
Yeah that’s why I said I understand their motivations for the war. It’s messy, I don’t have any answers. I just wish the cycle of violence would end already.
T00l_shed@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 13:17
nextcollapse
You and me both. It is a shit show with no end in sight. People will keep killing each other for their interpret of an old work of fiction.
Insane that this comment is downvoted. There are 1400 dead Israeli civilians and hundreds more still held hostage by Hamas. If they want peace so bad, maybe release the hostages?
Ah yes the UN stopped mattering the minute it started reporting on Israel’s horrendous human rights violation. Suddenly they don’t matter as a body. I suppose every human rights organization that has been documenting Israeli crimes is also not good enough?
The UN has never really mattered in any practical political sense. They do great humanitarian work, though, and are a major contributor to the success of developing nations.
They can’t prevent wars or stop atrocities though. They need NATO for that, generally.
gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 2023 12:08
collapse
Israel created its current situation
Kinda, in terms of current policies and actions, but in terms of root causes? It’s not fair to put ALL the blame on the Israelis, because the evolution of the area in the last 70 or so years is VERY MUCH a legacy of colonialism.
Remember: this all started back after the end of WW2, a mere handful of years after the Holocaust concluded, when the UK the time owned the area that is now Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. The UK and the UN (with the notable exception of the then Arab League countries) decided to partition the area, giving much of it to the Jewish people, while relocating Arabs to other areas (I am hand-waving a lot here); this became Israel and Palestine respectively.
The Arab League didn’t appreciate that colonial overlords were unilaterally redistributing land they had historical claim on to another group that had historical claim (understandable, if nuanced), and so they decided to immediately attack the fledgling state of Israel literally the day it was established in an attempt to, in their own words, “sweep them into the sea” (not cool). For those in the back: the surrounding Arab countries and the Arab league, (justifiably) upset at having their land unilaterally reapportioned, decided the best move was to effectively try to conduct another genocide on the now-Israelis (not cool), and the Israelis (understandably) took exception to that. This is known as the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
Thus, the initial unilateral reapportionment of the land, and the wildly violent reaction of the surrounding Arab countries set the tone for regional interactions for the foreseeable future.
As I mentioned above, there is a LOT of detail I’m glossing over, but those are more or less the core points of the situation.
Edit: and the comment under this adds some additional important context that you should also read. There’s a TON of nuance to this situation. People can, have, and will continue for the foreseeable future to write doctoral theses on this conflict. You are not going to get a truly comprehensive analysis of the situation from a social media platform.
dustyData@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 14:16
nextcollapse
The first Zionist congress was held in 1897 in Switzerland and after the first Alihya, which was a migration wave politically coopted by the Zionists. They just took advantage of the Mandatory Palestine situation created by the British and the US in 1922 and severely aggravated by WWII. Their plans considered several alternatives for the state of Israel that even considered Uganda, also under British rule at the time.
The whole characterization you made of the first Arab-Israeli war is a bit off. There were intense terrorists campaigns by Israel paramilitary years before the war broke out. Killing both British and Palestine civilians with fervor. The detonator was the idiocy of UN resolution 181 where a drunken cartographer drew lines separating the Palestine and Israeli states, which the General Assembly approved without consulting, you know, the people living there.
gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 2023 15:27
collapse
I am hand waving a lot here
That aside: for what it’s worth, thank you for adding additional context. More people need to understand more details and historical background of the situation. The vast majority of people who seem to have strong opinions on the matter appear to have a shaky understanding of the historical context at best.
dustyData@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 15:56
collapse
Yeah, I’m not disagreeing with you, just adding. I just think it would be disingenuous to downplay the role of extreme right wing zionism and terrorism in the creation of the current conflict. Certainly historical British colonialism and current USA imperialism enables and makes it all worse. But both leaders of Israel and other Arab states aren’t scot-free victims here. The only constant losers in this conflict are civilians at the mercy of warmongers in positions of power throughout all of history.
Palestinians in Israel do not live under apartheid, and apartheid is not when you blockade a place outside your country’s borders that continually bombs you.
avater@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 08:20
nextcollapse
oh boy refugees are the achilles tendon of our current europe. This topic brings all the people in the arms of the far right political parties.
PugJesus@kbin.social
on 24 Oct 2023 10:14
collapse
Bibi's government would love more far-right allies in Europe instead of disgusting 'centrist' and 'center-left' governments that might actually say a few words against genocide.
jet@hackertalks.com
on 24 Oct 2023 08:34
nextcollapse
They say they’re quoting the financial times. But I can’t find this article, or this quote on the financial times
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 09:55
nextcollapse
That’s rich considering how few Gazans Egypt has taken in over the years. Europe doesn’t want them, true, but neither does the Arab world. Palestinians have always been at the bottom of the strata.
There’s a reason that Egypt will not take them in and I understand and respect that. No hard feelings there.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 11:26
nextcollapse
The reason is that they’re assholes. They claim that they can’t do it because there’s no assurance of return and because they’re worried about Hamas. Sorry, those are not reasons to ignore a humanitarian crisis at your border.
there1snospoon@ttrpg.network
on 24 Oct 2023 13:17
nextcollapse
What would happen if Hamas started launching attacks against Israel from Egyptian soil?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 13:28
nextcollapse
Are you saying they shouldn’t take in refugees just in case Hamas attacks from Egypt because it might result in an Israeli response? Because you could make that same argument about Ukrainians fleeing to Poland. They might secretly be backing Russia. What if they launch attacks against Ukraine from Polish soil?
EDIT: I’m sorry, you can downvote me all you like, but this is a bullshit excuse to stop taking in people who are facing a genocide. Egypt sees a genocide happening on their border and, instead of letting refugees in, they say, “why can’t Europe take care of it?” I’m sorry, it’s bullshit. They’re complicit in this genocide. They aren’t the cause- the cause is Israel- but they’re complicit. They’re letting Gazans die.
there1snospoon@ttrpg.network
on 24 Oct 2023 13:44
collapse
Alright, let me ask this question. Why does Hamas exist in Palestine? Did Palestine take any steps to remove or eliminate Hamas before this war broke out?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 13:57
nextcollapse
What relevance does that have to Egypt refusing to help refugees fleeing from a genocide? Should no one take in Gazan refugees?
there1snospoon@ttrpg.network
on 24 Oct 2023 14:12
collapse
Because if the government of Palestine and the people of Palestine were willingly housing a known terrorist organization, I might be hesitant to let them through my country as well.
Or would you let Russians from either the occupied Luhansk or Donetsk oblast stay with you?
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 14:18
collapse
Well it’s either be terrified of letting terrorists into your country or be complicit in a genocide. Personally, I would say ‘don’t be complicit in genocide.’ You apparently would say the opposite.
there1snospoon@ttrpg.network
on 24 Oct 2023 14:23
collapse
Because it’s so simple for you eh? You are a disingenuous, bad faith actor. You know as well as I do that you would never allow your family or friends to be put at risk for either Israel or Gaza, so stop acting like you have the high moral ground here.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 14:25
collapse
I absolutely would put my family at risk to help stop a genocide. How is Hamas going to even attack Israel? With what weapons? Do you think they would be allowed to bring missiles across the border with them? Do you think they would just let everyone run through without stopping them at checkpoints?
Again, it’s either be afraid of a hypothetical terrorist attack or help stop an actual genocide.
there1snospoon@ttrpg.network
on 24 Oct 2023 14:30
collapse
Then stop armchair arguing with me on a website and go fucking help them, and take your wife and kids while you’re at it.
My god the people on this website who think they’d be so much better at things than elected officials or trained servicemembers or ems is astounding.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 14:31
collapse
Now you can do something. I’m sure if you don’t live in the US then you can find your country’s equivalent
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 24 Oct 2023 16:48
collapse
Room for Refugees is currently registering and matching refugees from Ukraine with sponsors across the U.K.
I don’t live in the UK. I also don’t have a spare bedroom. I would if I did. And how are Gazan refugees supposed to get to me? Because as far as I can tell, the only two countries bordering them are Israel and Egypt and neither will let them out.
can@sh.itjust.works
on 24 Oct 2023 20:51
nextcollapse
Why does Hamas exist in Palestine?
At least partially because Israel saw it as beneficial.
Then Egypt needs to eliminate the threat of Hamas in their country.
Oh - that’s not possible without collateral damage since the absolute love using civilians as human shields? Better not take them in and let Israel take the blame…
Forced displacement of a people *is a war crime" and given the Nakba it’s not such a bad idea to not give this to Israel. We’ve played this game before in 1948 and did any refugee from that era get to ever return home? Nope.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 10:43
nextcollapse
Okay, then what should Gazans do, stay put and die? Because unless they’re either staying put or somehow getting into Israel, Egypt sounds like their only option. Except Egypt won’t allow it.
Gazans and double nationals are as we speak now at the Rafah crossing and no government was able to get them out.
What they should do is get aid and a ceasefire and an end to the blockade. There is nothing you can expect from a group of civilians dying every day under bombing. There is nothing they as a group “should do” other than try to survive and not be forced out of their homeland.
Even if they get to leave, their lives will still be shit. Once a refugee forever a refugee.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 10:50
collapse
So you’re basically saying Gazans should stay put and hope that there’s peace before they’re murdered. I see.
I’m saying that if Gazans move now, it’s one extra tragedy they don’t need to fucking deal with. Gazans are in this now because Israel is killing them and destroying their homes, and yet on top of that they have to also take all their shit and leave, which can only be done with great difficulty already, not to mention Israel made sure to displace 1m+ people already in the past two weeks?
You can mold this statement to whatever form you want that makes you feel better.
Every single thing Gazans are going through now is with Israel literally pulling the trigger and making the decision. I read today that one Hamas official was killed. I wondered if it was worth it? 5kcivilians dead, thousands missing, almost half of the dead are children, people buried in mass graves… was it worth killing one single Hamas fighter for this many civilians? Was it worth making a new holocaust? Was it worth committing genocide? And Israel’s “only solution” with their infinite power and technology and foreign support was to bomb the shit out of them, breaking their bones under their own destroyed homes? Fuck this.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 11:57
collapse
There are three things Gazans can do: Flee through Israel (never going to happen), flee through Egypt (all Egypt has to do is say yes), or stay put and die.
You are repeatedly suggesting they should stay put and die.
Actually what I’m repeatedly suggesting is that Israel stop fucking bombing them.
Israel’s genocidal. Get over it.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 12:00
collapse
What is a more likely scenario: Gazans get to flee Gaza or Israel stops the genocide?
This is like someone saying “Jews shouldn’t leave Germany, Germans should stop the Holocaust.” As if either was something that Israel or the Nazis would be willing to do.
Because, again, Gazans have three options: Flee through Israel (impossible), flee through Egypt (could be possible), or stay put and die.
There are no other options.
You would have them stay put and hope Israel says “sorry, our bad” and stops bombing them.
Also, I’ve been saying Israel has been perpetrating a genocide repeatedly this whole time, so what exactly do I need to get over?
What is a more likely scenario: Gazans get to flee Gaza or Israel stops the genocide?
What you should ask is which one is the correct one. And we all know which one that is.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 12:08
collapse
What is “correct” and what will actually happen are two different things.
Do you think Israel will just say, “whoopsie! Sorry about that! We’ll stop bombing you now!” I mean what, in specific, realistic terms would get them to stop doing that? Let’s hear your plan. Because I told you what I think- I think there’s no way to stop Israel committing a genocide so Gazans need to get the hell out of Gaza before they’re all murdered and Egypt should let them.
So let’s hear your plan. “Israel needs to stop the genocide” is not a plan. Let’s hear what specifically you think should realistically happen and how it should happen.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 12:12
collapse
Because sanctions have totally stopped Russia from invading Ukraine, right? And what should Gazans do while waiting for the sanctions to take effect? Stay put and hope they don’t get murdered?
I never said there are safe places in Gaza. All I said is that the tragedy would double if Israel also forces them to leave their lands…
They are not b being “allowed” to leave. They are pushed out, ethnically cleansed…
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 13:44
collapse
They aren’t being pushed out. They can’t leave. They could if Egypt would let them. You have this strange desire for them to stay put while the bombs are raining down on them. Would you tell a loved one that they just have to hope the Israelis stop?
Actually one friend of mine traveled to Gaza just some days before this all broke out and he is now stuck there despite being a double national. I would never want for his family to have to abandon their home nor to die. I don’t want them to be displaced nor to be killed. I hope this is sufficiently clear. The ones killing Gazans and who can stop this all are Israel and the countries who should sanction Israel if it continues. If Gazans leave, Israel will never ever let them return. They will live a life just as shitty as the one in Gaza except they would also be ethnically cleansed and displaced on top of it.
FlyingSquid@lemmy.world
on 25 Oct 2023 14:12
collapse
Their options right now are be displaced or killed. You’re saying killed is the better option. I don’t think a home matters if you’re dead.
threaded - newest
So Egypt’s position is that the people in Gaza are subhumans who don’t deserve any rights?
They believe in the Palestinians right not to be the victims of a genocide.
should probably let a few more trucks in then
That's on Israel. Egypt has been demanding to let aid in Gaza for a while, but the crossing can't be opened without Israeli agreement.
Not quite sure how you reached that conclusion from the article.
The truth is that pretty much all countries in the region hate Palestinians, even the ones that cheer Hamas. They don’t cheer Hamas because they love Palestinians, but because they hate Israel even more.
You can see that none of the countries that supports Palestine are offering to take any Palestinian refugees. They can all die as far as they are concerned.
That’s how much the whole situation is fucked up.
Very fucked up. Additional examples of how fucked up it is.
Okay you're making up a lot of shit. While I hate El Sisi with all my guts his logic for not taking refugees is sound. Also, taking refugees means Gaza falls under Israel, because those people will not be allowed back in. Taking refugees in this situation helps Israel carry out their genocide.
How nice of Egypt to make that decision for the people of Gaza and refuse them refuge.
I’d be willing to take in Palestinian refugees, but the government does not represent my interests.
What exactly is your evidence that somehow of ALL Arabs, Palestinians are “hated” the most? Trying to make it look like there is something genetically wrong with these people undergoing decades of apartheid? Like somehow how we justify murder depends on how we see those murdered and if you can’t see them as human beings then it is easy to make such dumb blanket statements.
You can touch the moon with that reach.
No, it’s that they did accept them in the past and Palestinians (or Hamas disguised as Palestinian civilians perhaps, I don’t know it’s very complicated) have tried to destabilise and overthrow their government.
Edit: can someone with more brainpower, no fibro fog and knowledge explain please?
It’s because Israel causes a forced mass exodus of Palestinians into other Arab lands with the right of return and they were never able to return. The attempt to drive Gaza’s population (which is already full of refugees who were driven to Gaza by Israel in the first place) are a war crime and are meant to displace them and ethnically cleanse them. Gazans should have the right to get care and shelter in their own homes or whatever is left of those homes now.
Israel may like to make it look like it’s a humanitarian thing to fling the doors open and have 2 million people kiss their homes goodbye… It’s not. It’s a war crime.
Thank you sir!
“Ensign, despite Starfleet protocol, I don’t like being addressed as sir.”
Whoa wtf did you just assume someone’s rank
Refugees are a financial and societal strain on any country taking them. That is not to say that no one should take in refugees at all. We as humans should take care of other people running away from death. At the same time I can definitely see why a developing country like Egypt isn’t willing to take any refugees due to the immense implications that comes with.
Having said that, what I find very interesting as a European is that we, and our allies are poruing money and weapons into Israel, weapons which they use to carpet bomb and level Gaza to the ground, leaving over a MILLION people without homes in an already empoverished country where 70% of the population are refugees. Why aren’t we as Europeans saying anything to our “allies” over the pond pouring weapons into Israel? At the end of the day, if Israel continues with this campaign of ethnic cleansing these people will have to run somewhere, and some of them will end up here.
That's the thing, over the years. Taking 2 million refugees at once is asking for them to die. Not gonna defend Egypt's behavior in post-1948 Gaza, but right now it's another story. There's just no way to take in that many people, not to mention that if they enter Hamas attacks will come from Sinai, causing retaliation from Israel in Sinai and you just have another war between Egypt and Israel.
Because international law is enforced to help powerful counties.
<img alt="" src="https://lemy.lol/pictrs/image/ddabc478-d8d7-428e-9704-faf3ddd8ff1b.png">
As a Turk, I find them right. If you support attacks to Syria, you shouldn’t be surprised when the Syrians come knocking at your door. If you support bombing Palestine, you still shouldn’t be upset. This is a natural phenomenon. It’s a matter of action and reaction.
Unfortunately the case of Syria applies to Turkey as well. We should have been impartial from the very beginning. However, Erdoğan, the leader of the Ummah, wanted to intervene, as usual.
By that logic most Syrians would be knocking on Russia’s door…
US too. But why would US or Russia think about it while there is open border, welfare countries in EU? I’m pretty sure these both would prefer a non-stable, right wing managed EU.
If we care about human rights we should be stopping the bombings. People keep treating this like an earthquake or a hurricane or something.
true, the attacks against the palestines should stop immediately. But the attacks from gaza and the surrounding areas should also stop. Its not like Israel has lived in peace for the past 20 years.
Israel created its current situation. No kidding they actively funded Hamas (and, more commonly, allowed foreign money to reach them) and intentionally created conditions where nobody but them could govern, all so they don't have to bother with peace. Hell, Israel signed two ceasefires in the past, one in 2008 and one in 2012. Well Israel didn't follow those ceasefires so nothing came out of them. Then in the great march of return, Gazans once again tried peaceful solutions (which had already failed thrice), and their reward was getting shot by IDF snipers.
Just what are they supposed to do?
maybe not fire rockets into Israel? Killing civilians and taking hostages also did not help in this conflict I suppose. And let’s not forget it’s not only the Hamas that is fueling this conflict but Iran and some Jihad terror groups too…
We have Israel on one side of the conflict and they did their fair share of atrocities but they are only one side of this mess.
No, not what they're not supposed to do, what are they supposed to do? Because they've already tried peace multiple times and it didn't work. It's still not working in the West Bank.
well then let’s see who wins, right. /s
which still sucks because of the civilian casualites. But how do you fight a terror organisation that is hiding behind their citizens and I dont say that mass bombing is the answer, cause I don’t have one. But I understand that there is a need to defend yourself from such terrorists.
Then perhaps Israel should have maintained their border security with Gaza instead of pulling IDF forces away to assist with the ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. If the “settlers” didn’t need IDF protection for their raping and pillaging, the border of Gaza would have been better watched during when the Hamas attack happened.
uff…dont know how to respond that. Any valid source for those accusations? Especially for the raping and pillaging under the watch of the IDF, cause this is some hefty shit.
I don’t have the time to pull quotes from the articles, but I tried to pull articles from a variety of sources to prevent claims of source bias.
About reallocation of weapons and forces: archive.ph/…/0000018b-4d6d-dbe0-a38b-cdfd0d4f0000
Article from September about Israeli invasion into the West Bank: archive.ph/C27qm
Settler attack from the day before the Hamas attack: reuters.com/…/palestinian-killed-during-settler-a…
Ongoing violence from the settlers:
www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67173344
theguardian.com/…/gaza-palestinians-west-bank-vio…
middleeastmonitor.com/20231020-israel-soldiers-an…
archive.ph/…/00000189-0abc-d572-af9b-0afffdd50000
middleeasteye.net/…/israel-palestine-war-settlers…
middleeasteye.net/…/israel-palestine-war-west-ban…
Can’t you guys keep this more civilized without insulting each other. People have different opinions and we should respect that even if we don’t fully agree with one another.
You know the basic concept of cause and effect, right?
Well, palestinians are firing missiles into israel as an effect caused by israel firing missiles into gaza and west bank.
And what happened before that?
and Isreal is shooting missles as an effect of the missles send from Gazah every day. So what? You created an Ouroboros, congrats to that. This won’t end until either side stops.
If you really want to trace all this back to the root it was the Arab states that started the 1948 war that kicked all this off. I can understand why they did but still, that was what set us down this mess of a road.
Root cause goes back further than that, but also having your land cut up by colonials and then kicked out would absolutely piss off the Arab popular.
Yeah that’s why I said I understand their motivations for the war. It’s messy, I don’t have any answers. I just wish the cycle of violence would end already.
You and me both. It is a shit show with no end in sight. People will keep killing each other for their interpret of an old work of fiction.
Yeah no sorry cause and effect is only acceptable when Israel kills civilians. Otherwise it’s an unprovoked conflict or some other such excuse.
Insane that this comment is downvoted. There are 1400 dead Israeli civilians and hundreds more still held hostage by Hamas. If they want peace so bad, maybe release the hostages?
Depitie this, Israel responds by bombing civilians. I believe that’s the reason for the downvoted and I agree.
They’re not intentionally bombing civilians. They even specifically tell civilians where not to be.
That’s a big difference between the two adversaries.
I don’t really know how naive you have to be to believe that about Israel.
I just don’t dive face-first into propaganda and like, read.
Do you dive into UN resolutions against Israel though?
Not generally, no. The UN is, ultimately, a political body.
I’d take the UN more seriously if they took themselves more seriously. Their “Human Rights Council” membership, as an example, is a bad joke.
www.un.org/en/ga/75/meetings/elections/hrc.shtml#….
I think there is value in the UN, and it’s a net positive, but I don’t much care about any specific resolutions.
Ah yes the UN stopped mattering the minute it started reporting on Israel’s horrendous human rights violation. Suddenly they don’t matter as a body. I suppose every human rights organization that has been documenting Israeli crimes is also not good enough?
The UN has never really mattered in any practical political sense. They do great humanitarian work, though, and are a major contributor to the success of developing nations.
They can’t prevent wars or stop atrocities though. They need NATO for that, generally.
Kinda, in terms of current policies and actions, but in terms of root causes? It’s not fair to put ALL the blame on the Israelis, because the evolution of the area in the last 70 or so years is VERY MUCH a legacy of colonialism.
Remember: this all started back after the end of WW2, a mere handful of years after the Holocaust concluded, when the UK the time owned the area that is now Israel, Gaza, and the West Bank. The UK and the UN (with the notable exception of the then Arab League countries) decided to partition the area, giving much of it to the Jewish people, while relocating Arabs to other areas (I am hand-waving a lot here); this became Israel and Palestine respectively.
The Arab League didn’t appreciate that colonial overlords were unilaterally redistributing land they had historical claim on to another group that had historical claim (understandable, if nuanced), and so they decided to immediately attack the fledgling state of Israel literally the day it was established in an attempt to, in their own words, “sweep them into the sea” (not cool). For those in the back: the surrounding Arab countries and the Arab league, (justifiably) upset at having their land unilaterally reapportioned, decided the best move was to effectively try to conduct another genocide on the now-Israelis (not cool), and the Israelis (understandably) took exception to that. This is known as the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
Thus, the initial unilateral reapportionment of the land, and the wildly violent reaction of the surrounding Arab countries set the tone for regional interactions for the foreseeable future.
As I mentioned above, there is a LOT of detail I’m glossing over, but those are more or less the core points of the situation.
Edit: and the comment under this adds some additional important context that you should also read. There’s a TON of nuance to this situation. People can, have, and will continue for the foreseeable future to write doctoral theses on this conflict. You are not going to get a truly comprehensive analysis of the situation from a social media platform.
The first Zionist congress was held in 1897 in Switzerland and after the first Alihya, which was a migration wave politically coopted by the Zionists. They just took advantage of the Mandatory Palestine situation created by the British and the US in 1922 and severely aggravated by WWII. Their plans considered several alternatives for the state of Israel that even considered Uganda, also under British rule at the time.
The whole characterization you made of the first Arab-Israeli war is a bit off. There were intense terrorists campaigns by Israel paramilitary years before the war broke out. Killing both British and Palestine civilians with fervor. The detonator was the idiocy of UN resolution 181 where a drunken cartographer drew lines separating the Palestine and Israeli states, which the General Assembly approved without consulting, you know, the people living there.
That aside: for what it’s worth, thank you for adding additional context. More people need to understand more details and historical background of the situation. The vast majority of people who seem to have strong opinions on the matter appear to have a shaky understanding of the historical context at best.
Yeah, I’m not disagreeing with you, just adding. I just think it would be disingenuous to downplay the role of extreme right wing zionism and terrorism in the creation of the current conflict. Certainly historical British colonialism and current USA imperialism enables and makes it all worse. But both leaders of Israel and other Arab states aren’t scot-free victims here. The only constant losers in this conflict are civilians at the mercy of warmongers in positions of power throughout all of history.
No not fair at all to blame Israel for decades of apartheid against Palestinians… Not fair AT ALL!!
Palestinians in Israel do not live under apartheid, and apartheid is not when you blockade a place outside your country’s borders that continually bombs you.
oh boy refugees are the achilles tendon of our current europe. This topic brings all the people in the arms of the far right political parties.
Bibi's government would love more far-right allies in Europe instead of disgusting 'centrist' and 'center-left' governments that might actually say a few words against genocide.
They say they’re quoting the financial times. But I can’t find this article, or this quote on the financial times
www.ft.com/search?sort=date&q="you+want+us+to…
Does anyone have a link to the original source?
That’s rich considering how few Gazans Egypt has taken in over the years. Europe doesn’t want them, true, but neither does the Arab world. Palestinians have always been at the bottom of the strata.
There’s a reason that Egypt will not take them in and I understand and respect that. No hard feelings there.
The reason is that they’re assholes. They claim that they can’t do it because there’s no assurance of return and because they’re worried about Hamas. Sorry, those are not reasons to ignore a humanitarian crisis at your border.
What would happen if Hamas started launching attacks against Israel from Egyptian soil?
Are you saying they shouldn’t take in refugees just in case Hamas attacks from Egypt because it might result in an Israeli response? Because you could make that same argument about Ukrainians fleeing to Poland. They might secretly be backing Russia. What if they launch attacks against Ukraine from Polish soil?
EDIT: I’m sorry, you can downvote me all you like, but this is a bullshit excuse to stop taking in people who are facing a genocide. Egypt sees a genocide happening on their border and, instead of letting refugees in, they say, “why can’t Europe take care of it?” I’m sorry, it’s bullshit. They’re complicit in this genocide. They aren’t the cause- the cause is Israel- but they’re complicit. They’re letting Gazans die.
Alright, let me ask this question. Why does Hamas exist in Palestine? Did Palestine take any steps to remove or eliminate Hamas before this war broke out?
What relevance does that have to Egypt refusing to help refugees fleeing from a genocide? Should no one take in Gazan refugees?
Because if the government of Palestine and the people of Palestine were willingly housing a known terrorist organization, I might be hesitant to let them through my country as well.
Or would you let Russians from either the occupied Luhansk or Donetsk oblast stay with you?
Well it’s either be terrified of letting terrorists into your country or be complicit in a genocide. Personally, I would say ‘don’t be complicit in genocide.’ You apparently would say the opposite.
Because it’s so simple for you eh? You are a disingenuous, bad faith actor. You know as well as I do that you would never allow your family or friends to be put at risk for either Israel or Gaza, so stop acting like you have the high moral ground here.
I absolutely would put my family at risk to help stop a genocide. How is Hamas going to even attack Israel? With what weapons? Do you think they would be allowed to bring missiles across the border with them? Do you think they would just let everyone run through without stopping them at checkpoints?
Again, it’s either be afraid of a hypothetical terrorist attack or help stop an actual genocide.
Then stop armchair arguing with me on a website and go fucking help them, and take your wife and kids while you’re at it.
My god the people on this website who think they’d be so much better at things than elected officials or trained servicemembers or ems is astounding.
How would you advise I do that?
Ok? Not sure how asking you how I should help is trolling, but enjoy blocking me.
Have you opened up your house to refugees? Here you go www.paih.org/…/host-a-refugee-in-your-home
Now you can do something. I’m sure if you don’t live in the US then you can find your country’s equivalent
I don’t live in the UK. I also don’t have a spare bedroom. I would if I did. And how are Gazan refugees supposed to get to me? Because as far as I can tell, the only two countries bordering them are Israel and Egypt and neither will let them out.
At least partially because Israel saw it as beneficial.
With, let me guess, weapons Israel gave them to do it?
Seriously how do you expect people to get rid of a theocratic dictatorship, without external help, in the situation that Gaza is in.
I’d hope Egypt would then work together with Israel on disarming Hamas on Egyptian soil.
By bombing Egyptian soil?
Then Egypt needs to eliminate the threat of Hamas in their country.
Oh - that’s not possible without collateral damage since the absolute love using civilians as human shields? Better not take them in and let Israel take the blame…
Forced displacement of a people *is a war crime" and given the Nakba it’s not such a bad idea to not give this to Israel. We’ve played this game before in 1948 and did any refugee from that era get to ever return home? Nope.
Okay, then what should Gazans do, stay put and die? Because unless they’re either staying put or somehow getting into Israel, Egypt sounds like their only option. Except Egypt won’t allow it.
Gazans and double nationals are as we speak now at the Rafah crossing and no government was able to get them out.
What they should do is get aid and a ceasefire and an end to the blockade. There is nothing you can expect from a group of civilians dying every day under bombing. There is nothing they as a group “should do” other than try to survive and not be forced out of their homeland.
Even if they get to leave, their lives will still be shit. Once a refugee forever a refugee.
So you’re basically saying Gazans should stay put and hope that there’s peace before they’re murdered. I see.
I’m saying that if Gazans move now, it’s one extra tragedy they don’t need to fucking deal with. Gazans are in this now because Israel is killing them and destroying their homes, and yet on top of that they have to also take all their shit and leave, which can only be done with great difficulty already, not to mention Israel made sure to displace 1m+ people already in the past two weeks?
You can mold this statement to whatever form you want that makes you feel better.
Every single thing Gazans are going through now is with Israel literally pulling the trigger and making the decision. I read today that one Hamas official was killed. I wondered if it was worth it? 5kcivilians dead, thousands missing, almost half of the dead are children, people buried in mass graves… was it worth killing one single Hamas fighter for this many civilians? Was it worth making a new holocaust? Was it worth committing genocide? And Israel’s “only solution” with their infinite power and technology and foreign support was to bomb the shit out of them, breaking their bones under their own destroyed homes? Fuck this.
There are three things Gazans can do: Flee through Israel (never going to happen), flee through Egypt (all Egypt has to do is say yes), or stay put and die.
You are repeatedly suggesting they should stay put and die.
Actually what I’m repeatedly suggesting is that Israel stop fucking bombing them.
Israel’s genocidal. Get over it.
What is a more likely scenario: Gazans get to flee Gaza or Israel stops the genocide?
This is like someone saying “Jews shouldn’t leave Germany, Germans should stop the Holocaust.” As if either was something that Israel or the Nazis would be willing to do.
Because, again, Gazans have three options: Flee through Israel (impossible), flee through Egypt (could be possible), or stay put and die.
There are no other options.
You would have them stay put and hope Israel says “sorry, our bad” and stops bombing them.
Also, I’ve been saying Israel has been perpetrating a genocide repeatedly this whole time, so what exactly do I need to get over?
What you should ask is which one is the correct one. And we all know which one that is.
What is “correct” and what will actually happen are two different things.
Do you think Israel will just say, “whoopsie! Sorry about that! We’ll stop bombing you now!” I mean what, in specific, realistic terms would get them to stop doing that? Let’s hear your plan. Because I told you what I think- I think there’s no way to stop Israel committing a genocide so Gazans need to get the hell out of Gaza before they’re all murdered and Egypt should let them.
So let’s hear your plan. “Israel needs to stop the genocide” is not a plan. Let’s hear what specifically you think should realistically happen and how it should happen.
If sanctions are placed on the they might.
Because sanctions have totally stopped Russia from invading Ukraine, right? And what should Gazans do while waiting for the sanctions to take effect? Stay put and hope they don’t get murdered?
And what should Gazans do while waiting for the sanctions to take effect? Stay put and hope they don’t get murdered?
YES. They should seek shelter and hope Israel doesn’t bomb the shit out of them.
Seek shelter where? Every place they go to seek shelter gets bombed.
Where specifically in Gaza is it safe for the population to go?
I think you missed what I was trying to say…
You said that Gazans should stay in Gaza and seek shelter. Where? Where in Gaza is safe from Israeli weapons?
I never said there are safe places in Gaza. All I said is that the tragedy would double if Israel also forces them to leave their lands…
They are not b being “allowed” to leave. They are pushed out, ethnically cleansed…
They aren’t being pushed out. They can’t leave. They could if Egypt would let them. You have this strange desire for them to stay put while the bombs are raining down on them. Would you tell a loved one that they just have to hope the Israelis stop?
Actually one friend of mine traveled to Gaza just some days before this all broke out and he is now stuck there despite being a double national. I would never want for his family to have to abandon their home nor to die. I don’t want them to be displaced nor to be killed. I hope this is sufficiently clear. The ones killing Gazans and who can stop this all are Israel and the countries who should sanction Israel if it continues. If Gazans leave, Israel will never ever let them return. They will live a life just as shitty as the one in Gaza except they would also be ethnically cleansed and displaced on top of it.
Their options right now are be displaced or killed. You’re saying killed is the better option. I don’t think a home matters if you’re dead.
So Egypt can’t take them because it would allow Israel to commit a war crime by displacing them, but Egypt thinks Europe should take them
“Hey stop bombing Gaza, they are not all terrorists!”
“Giving civilians refuge? But they are all terrorists!”
The duality of Palestine.
Is this the same Egypt who vocally supported Hamas for the last 16 years? Maybe they can take 1M.refugees too.
It’s so funny. Egypt also has a blockade in place on Gaza. Imagine them trying to have the moral high ground on literally anyone lmao
Seems like the checkpoint has been more open after Sisi’s coup.
Well that’s the the point. They don’t want to take Palestinian refugees because they’ve attacked Egypt and caused various problems.
The point they are making is “we don’t want them, and neither do you, so don’t try and take the moral of high ground”
Israel has tried to give Gaza ti Egypt. They won’t take it.
We could exchange them for a few million other refugees from your continent.
Or maybe Europe could pressure Israel to stop bombing civilians and carrying out ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
I wish the cowardly aliens would come back and finish us off like they tried to in 1908