Reuters- Putin says West will be fighting directly with Russia if it lets Kyiv use long-range missiles
(www.reuters.com)
from ms_lane@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 13 Sep 2024 09:38
https://lemmy.world/post/19720408
from ms_lane@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 13 Sep 2024 09:38
https://lemmy.world/post/19720408
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Okay. Send in Poland to end the war. They’ll be thrilled, I’m sure.
At this point, I think Estonia could do it alone.
I know some Estonians, they could do it while black out drunk
Easy loophole. Tell Eastern European countries they can do whatever the hell they want. I think several have a score to settle with Russia.
But seriously if Putin would prefer to not have deep strikes into Russia, then maybe we could meet him halfway – send a NATO coalition to Ukraine and steamroll Russia out. Including from Crimea.
Ok 👍
The russian army is entirely bound in its invasion into Ukraine. If it weren’t for the threat of nuclear annihilation, NATO would get to Moscow within 3 days. A true 3-day military operation.
No, no, don’t worry, they still have their secondary army of sad conscripts (poor people only, don’t worry) who are ritually tortured for a year as a rite of adulthood.
I’m pretty sure that’s the army they’re using at the moment, I remember seeing news stories of elderly Farmers being conscripted over a year ago
There’s a second, even-sadder army behind that one. In the Donbass, (previously? Not sure how it is now) legally distinct from Russia itself, they were just mass-conscripting people for the meat grinder. The actual Russian citizens in Ukraine, though, are overwhelmingly volunteers (and overwhelmingly impoverished ethnic minorities) who were bribed or tortured during their rite of adulthood until they said “Dying in Ukraine is better than this” and ‘voluntarily’ signed a service contract.
Even with nuclear annihilation, NATO could still get to Moscow in a three day operation. It’s just a question of which cities back home are still standing.
Moscow is not the big prize you might think it is. Russia can just retreat hundreds of kilometers further east and carry on.
NATO can do the thunder run, but they are not equipped to win a massive land war in Asia. You really gotta listen to the Sicilian from Princess Bride on this one.
If nukes started popping off, there’d be zero reason to send in ground forces until it was all over. Lastly, I’m not convinced Russia’s nuclear program is much better off than NATO’s. So many interviews with nuke watch officers talking about how old and decrepit our silos are. The DoD supposedly approved a modernization package a few years ago for all of them, but I’m still skeptical how efficient the targeting is on everything and how well they’ll avoid missile defense systems.
None of the current ICBM platforms were designed for missile defense. Missile defense simply did not exist at the time.
Sentinel is busting its budget because it’s renovating and rebuilding all of the ground segments: all of those decrepit silos and computer systems. It’s still money well spent in my opinion.
Missile guidance is not a computationally hard problem, and it hasn’t changed much since the 50s. Terminal missile defense is a fantastically hard problem, and wasn’t mastered until the last decade or two. And the current generation missile defense capabilities still haven’t all been demonstrated in combat.
Having said that, I would generally expect NATO’s missiles to work as advertised in a hot war. And I would plan for Russia’s missiles to be somewhat less effective than they advertise, but still a credible threat.
All valid and fair points.
Regardless, I truly hope we never have to find out either way. The human species is capable of incredible things if we just set aside historical, cultural, and petty differences and worked towards a common goal of lifting everyone up. Wars of aggression are barbaric and unnecessary and I hope one day we all mentally evolve past such tendencies for mass violence. It’s a naive pipe dream, but one can always dream.
It’s difficult to counter a MIRV regardless of how old it is.
Into what, a wasteland full of snow and bears? Russia might be massive, but it works like Canada. Everybody is huddled into very specific regions for a reason.
I’m just repeating what happened or what the plan was the last couple of go arounds, with Napoleon and Hitler.
Napoleon did occupy Moscow, but it didn’t help him very much.
Hitler was turned back just short of Moscow, but the Russian government had all sorts of continuity plans that involved moving further east. Entire factories were uprooted and shipped into the Urals.
Soviets would’ve gotten their ass handed to them without lend lease.
Because he was trying to wait for the Tsar’s peace negotiations. Not because taking Moscow wasn’t a major victory. The issue is that Napoleon had no intention of pursuing the war any further, but the Tsar was not willing to give up at the point they were at, because the Tsar realized that Napoleon wanted a quick surrender, not a chase across the Asian steppes.
Try doing that now
Occupying Moscow is like occupying DC. The politicians will fly to safety and you are left occupying a city of low level administrative personnel and restaurants. Nothing of military value is manufactured in Moscow just like DC.
Except there isn’t a California 1000 miles away, there is only Bumfuck Alabama.
Most of their industry is there, because it’s where most of people live.
No, it’s in the Urals
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motovilikha_Plants
Nobody has ever considered Russia a prize, or at least nobody that wasn’t a complete idiot.
It’s a festering shithole full of Russians, a nuke would improve it dramatically.
Nobody wants to win a war in Russia, but nobody has to.
Knock out Moscow, the rest of Russia hates them and will fracture instantly.
Many beautiful women that never smile.
third times the charm right?
Implying western countries never invaded Moscow or something? Poland held it for a year, russians made it a national holiday when they finally got it back.
Too bad Poland didn’t stay
Then what? Let us not fall into the Iraq trap
I hate jingoistic bullshit. 3days? How many years were we in Afghanistan?
Ukraine troops are battle hardened and have NATO tanks and weapons. They are holding on but territory changes are tiny. Modern war isn’t WW2 blitzkrieg.
The actual entry into Afghanistan and overwhelming of local forces was wildly fast? The majority of our time in Afghanistan wasn’t slowly advancing on Kabul. It was failing miserably to build a coherent state sympathetic to US interests amidst a mad dash of privatized MIC interests maximally extracting revenues from the US.
Yup, doesn’t help that Afghanistan is like 5 territories masquerading as one whole state. The only reason Afghanistan hasn’t split is because of the Taliban holding it together.
Was answering a different comment
Yes, you take Moscow in 3 days like Kabul, then what? It has no military value.
How many will then die over the decades to road side bombs?
Most of their people and industry is there, you can’t just lift all your factories and move them east like it’s 1940
Well, you can. They just had more than 3 days.
They never left the Urals
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motovilikha_Plants
Edit for the downvoters: I did more googling.
Here’s more
www.rferl.org/a/…/32658857.html
One in the list is near Moscow.
If you want to downvote, show your list of weapon factories in Moscow.
What kind of troll are you?
I’m attempting to be realistic in a thread filled with young kids who aren’t well educated on modern war.
Modern war isn’t WW2 armor thrusts where you take the capital and the war is over.
NATO needs to supply Ukraine so they win. Then you can start talking about how NATO could defeat Russia in 3 days. Show that we can win first.
I think you’re underestimating the importance of Moscow in today’s Russia. It’s not like it was in Napoleon’s time or even Stalin’s. Russia has become a much more centralized State and Moscow has become incredibly crucial to the way the country is run. To the point that there’s widespread dissatisfaction with the power of Moscow. Speak to anyone in outlying areas and they speak of Moscow with resentment. There’s a reason there’s so many separatist movements in Russia.
I don’t know anything about Moscow other than what I read. As to speaking about Moscow with resentment, that’s exactly how all of the rural US talks about DC.
Other than a nuclear strike, all politicians would have plenty of time to evacuate. Modern communications makes their physical location irrelevant.
Bring it you ruskie coward.
Really Reuters? This is news?
Sure, it’s relaying a statement by a country’s political leader. It’s literally a piece of news.
The joke is this is news like “Putin still breathing today”.
I see, his statement is in response to a specific threat from Ukraine to use British and American-made missiles to strike Russia across the border. There was talk of them receiving permission to do so within the day.
Yeah, it’s the same response for every event EU/NATO/Ukraine related. The news “EU/NATO/UA did something” = “Putin utters red line threat”
Good, fuck you Putin.
Is anyone, anywhere in the West afraid of this happening?
It might just be time to shut them the fuck up for good.
They won’t shut up they’ll give warnings each time something comes along. They switched their nonsense from “red lines” to “open war” because that sells better to fearmongers. In reality, Ukraine has shown in Kursk how much the red lines mean - that is fuckall. Biden just needs to stop being a pussy and say yes.
You corner a rat they will do anything to survive. You want all out war with Russia and to roll the dice on Putin launching the nukes?
They are a rat, I’m not afraid of a rat, we are going to stomp this rat’s head into mush.
The rat can hiss and threaten all it wants, it went too far and there is no alternative, we put up with the rat shitting all over us for far too long.
BTW, they really so desperate to survive?
GO THE FUCK HOME!!!
Staying in Ukraine is just begging for everyone else to revisit all the genocides they’ve inflicted on others, like Armenia, Ukraine, poles, the list is endless.
I think a lot of those people would love to lay hands-on Russian citizens right now, for old times sake.
It’s so delicious to watch karma unfold in real time to someone who so deserves it.
This is like a man trying to defend murder by saying you were just trying to rape her but she resisted.
If the alternative to “the nukes” is “gets steamrolled the old fashioned way” anyway, it’s not really an alternative.
I’m slightly worried about the really big guns russia supposedly have, but only slightly. At this point, it’s not like there’s a big red “launch” button on putin’s desk; it’d have to go through a few people that may have the actual big picture in their mind.
We bought those people off decades ago, all their yachts, townhouses and other decent shit is as far from Russia as possible.
But if they see they can back us down and let them invade a country by waving nukes, they will be greatly encouraged to do so again, the cost/benefit ratio is far too high, they’re getting something for literally nothing.
This is exactly how world wars start.
I can understand how the guidance systems being still controlled by NATO satellites/support mechanisms would be considered a different level for them, but is it just more sabre rattling? That’s the question.
Yes, this is just more saber rattling.
So he’s currently struggling against just Ukraine but he’s warning us that he could end up facing the whole of NATO?
Maybe the word “directly” didn’t translate well. If Russia engages NATO directly, their forces will be wiped off the map. Ukraine is using old NATO equipment from the 90s that was pulled out of storage and kicking all kinds of Russian ass. Direct NATO involvement would mean carrier groups, F35s, stealth bombers, and a whole lot of other fun things the Russians have zero answer for.
But answer me this: is Russia allowed to use long-range missiles?
Yes and so is Ukraine.
The issue was whether Ukraine using externally supplied long range missiles counted as escalation. Which is a non-issue since Russia is using externally supplied (from Iran and NK) long range missiles - they already escalated it.
Give to them by their allies?
Yes.
But using them long range?
Also yes.
On civilian targets?
Well actually yes too.
Just give the Ukrainians the needs to erase the existance of russian army inside its borders ffs (so including long range strikes inside all of russia).
Do eeeitttt. Russia is already invaded by Ukraine with no direct participation of NATO. Let’s see how they do against actual NATO planes, tanks, ships and soldiers.
Didn’t he already repeatedly claim that he’s fighting directly with the West?
Even in his own words what would this change?
And here is the moment it sails over everyone’s head that this is exactly the same claim for Palestine that many are claiming occurs when the US sells weapons to Israel.
Weird.
I always have to preface this by saying I am by no means a Putin apologist, but just follow the money. America loves a war no matter where it is. And why? Because we gotta sell all these bombs and missiles to someone…