I’m not talking about the law. Laws change over time. Not all laws are just. Not everything just is a law.

Hamas knows they can and will retaliate so they form their strategy to leverage this. And Israel thinks they can get away with bombing hospitals by dumping shit tons of money on pr. What should be done is it should be made illegal according to international humanitarian laws, god knows why it isn’t.

The law says its OK so it must be OK!

Not unconditionally though. From your own linked source:

Before carrying out an attack on a medical establishment or unit that has lost its protected status, a warning must be given. Where appropriate, this should include a time limit, which must go unheeded before an attack is permitted. The purpose of issuing a warning is to allow those committing an “act harmful to the enemy” to terminate such act, or – if they persist – to ultimately allow for safe evacuation of the wounded and sick who are not responsible for such conduct and who should not become the victims of it.

Where such a warning has remained unheeded, the enemy is no longer obliged to refrain from interfering with the work of a medical establishment or unit, or to take positive measures to assist it in its work. Even then, humanitarian considerations relating to the welfare of the wounded and sick being cared for in the facility may not be disregarded. They must be spared and, as far as possible, active measures for their safety taken.

This derives from the obligation to respect and protect the wounded and sick as well as the general rules on the conduct of hostilities that apply to attacks on any military objective. Notably, an attacking party remains bound by the principle of proportionality. The military advantage likely to be gained from attacking medical establishments or units that have lost their protected status should be carefully weighed against the humanitarian consequences likely to result from the damage or destruction caused to those facilities: such an attack may have significant incidental second- and third-order effects on the delivery of health care in the short, middle and long-term.

An attacking party remains also bound by the obligation to take precautions in attack, in particular to do everything feasible to avoid or at least minimize harm to patients and medical personnel who may have nothing to do with those acts and for whom the humanitarian consequences will be especially dire.

So leveling an entire hospital because a single rocket is fired from one by terrorists isn’t exactly justified by the law, even if firing rockets from a hospital is a war crime and justifies some degree of proportional reaction assuming humanitarian concerns can be justified.

As for why Hamas does this, it’s because it’s a win win for them. Either they reduce the capabilities of retaliation when humanitarian concerns are factored in, or they harm Israel’s image when engaging in disproportionate retaliation that isn’t adequately factoring in humanitarian concerns.

But the whole point of the Geneva convention and regulation regarding conduct in war is that even if your enemy is the literal worst, that stooping to their level is not what modern nations should do, and concern for the civilians even in enemy territory is a worthwhile endeavor regardless of the disregard for those laws by your own enemies.

I can’t regard Hamas as anything but disgusting terrorists and it’s troubling how much I see apologist rationalization for their terrorist acts on here.

But that doesn’t justify the IDF throwing the Geneva convention out the window and bombing civilian infrastructure to rubble any more than ISIL’s activities in Syria justified Assad’s bombing civilian areas where they were present to rubble.

It’s tiring to see everyone taking sides. Just admit that both sides are wrong: Hamas are using civilians as cover, Israel is just killing everyone to get at Hamas. The people suffer. :-(

So glad you brought this up… I am 100% team Voltari. Edward is like over 100 years old and Bella is like 16, 17 maybe? Seems a little statutory rapey. Oh then Jacob falls in love with their child at the age of like less than one…

Voltari should have ripped them all apart and threw them in the fire.

Lol, ya to many people are stuck on this being black and white and thus you have to take a side. When in reality it’s just a mess, a mess of history , a mess of religion, a mess of unfounded hatred. The only side people should be takeing is the civilians who are stuck in the middle.

The more I learn about the history, because am/was whole heartily ignorant of it. The more I have a hard time seeing a solution to this.

I have my opinion on what I think should happen but its not realistic or practical.

No, there aren’t. There are plenty of people willing to state the reasons why Hamas does things. That isn’t to defend or justify what Hamas does. But they do have the reasons. And Israel has proven themselves time and again worthy of suspicion in all things.

Regardless, this does not justify what Israel has been doing. Someone standing out front of any building with an RPG does not give carte blanche to level a building with military weapons fire.

You really believe the IDF avoids civilian deaths when possible???

11,000 and growing massacred civilians (mostly women and children) would beg to differ

That’s one in every 200 civilians, just to clarify

You're totally right.

Israel has not been murdering innocents consistently for 60 years.

One retaliatory strike, leading to 260 deaths, not 1200, deserves a response of 11,000 dead civilians in a month and a half.

/s

How is this defense? It’s revenge.

Yeah I mean that’s why we declared war on airplanes after 9/11

If cancer does cancer stuff around my stomach, you shoot my stomach. It’s the only logical answer. /s

Yup, just like a person that has a splinter in their finger needs that arm amputated, for the safety of the rest of the body. /s

Nope, they are a terrorist criminal organization allowed to take over in the chaos caused by a never ending occupation intended to force People there to allow their land to be settled by the occupiers as the folks living their are systematically genocided.

And we all know that October saw the first civilians killed in this conflict.

Israel has killed more children than Hamas did people in that attack.

As in innocent children.

Why is the IDF in the West bank, and actively trying to stir up conflict? And if a radical group/government took control of the West bank because of it, would you blame both sides?

You are skipping over a sixty Year occupation to get to your "unprovoked" pretending.

They couldn’t do that or leave due to Hamas.

They oppressed by Hamas

That’s some qanon-level bullshit

You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.

Of course many of those people can’t help that Hamas is set up there.

However, that doesn’t change the fact that places like hospitals can go from protected to valid targets when militaries start fighting out of it.

That’s exactly what Israel said was happening which was doubted by many in the fediverse and other lefty spaces (I count myself as a lefty for whatever that’s worth). Now we have receipts.

Hamas is fully responsible for the endangering those people.

If there’s ever another election there hopefully people remember this and don’t elect them again.

In the full-length interview, Porat states that the Palestinian fighters – who she says treated her and the other Israeli civilians “humanely” – intended to “kidnap us to Gaza. Not to murder us.”

Ohhh Hamas was only there to do a little light kidnapping. Please ignore the beheddings and people burned alive. It’s damaging to our current propaganda efforts.

Also ignore this call from a terrorist to his family bragging about all the Jews he killed and attempting to get his father to open WhatsApp to see the awesome photos.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/…/ar-AA1iLVgN

I don’t think any instance should have downvotes anyhow. A bit too much like Reddit.

Sadly I think there’s just an overwhelming tendency for bias to make people think “everything my side does is right and everything the other side does is wrong”.

The good old “they” mentality strikes again. You are completely correct in everything you have said, and I think this is one of the first major global issues where social media has really come to the forefront - just like the TV for Vietnam everyone can see it, but now everyone can put in their own opinions and with the 5-15 sec clips you don’t get verifications, or balanced arguments, or anything that says this person is actually well informed and not coming in with an agenda.

I think what gets me the most is how would anyone else react if their country had a neighbor whos founding document screamed for the death of you. Who ripped up their infrastructure to send rockets against you and made you develop one of the best counter-missile battery in the world to protect your civilians. Who invaded across your boarder to shoot and abduct civilians and openly brags they wanted to get more.

I would argue that people do consider the innocents caught up in it, but the unfortunate fact is that these actions can’t be allowed to continue otherwise more will be affected in the long term. I support Israeli invasion, because dragging this out, allowing Hamas immunity because they have human shields, and keeping the blockade up means help can’t get to those that need it. Attacking civilian structures should be a last resort, but if they are being used to stage attacks its not something you have the luxury of shying away from.

I doubt anyone thinks they are the good guys, but there are multiple trying to justify blatant war crimes and thinking they should be able to operate with immunity because they have civilians in the cross fire.

Im also doubting some “intellectually honest” people on both sides if the arguement. Well, with this CF all six sides of the arguement…

Unfortunately as soon as they garrisoned it it became a legitimate military target and yes, they literally now have a right to bomb it. Level it, no, you are right on a proportional response and that would still be a war crime, but bombing what is now a legitimate military target prior to any invasion (like any other military target) can absolutely be justified.

Hamas knows this, and are deliberately trying to put the global blame on Israel when THEY GARRISONED A FUCKING HOSPITAL.

Biden graduated in 65 from uni of Delaware… c average but still passed

Thank you for sharing

My friend, they celebrate an airstrike with multiple rocket enough to create a crater few meter wide, using it on a human target, inside a crowded refugee camp. They certainly will not listen to any reasoning.

While proportionality is in LOAC, if there is ample intelligence that the hospital is being used to commit attacks, it doesn’t have to be used exclusively to commit attacks to be a legal target.

Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy.

ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/…/rule28#….

“the protection of medical units ceases when they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy. This exception is provided for in the First and Fourth Geneva Conventions and in both Additional Protocols.[37] It is contained in numerous military manuals and military orders.[38] It is also supported by other practice.[39]”

“While the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocols do not define “acts harmful to the enemy”, they do indicate several types of acts which do not constitute “acts harmful to the enemy”, for example, when the personnel of the unit is armed, when the unit is guarded, when small arms and ammunition taken from the wounded and sick are found in the unit and when wounded and sick combatants or civilians are inside the unit.[40] According to the Commentary on the First Geneva Convention, examples of acts harmful to the enemy include the use of medical units to shelter able-bodied combatants, to store arms or munitions, as a military observation post or as a shield for military action.”

And that’s before we get into the creative reinterpreting of LOAC for terrorists in non- international armed conflicts fought by non-state insurgent groups which were invented post 9-11.

First off, a single incident isn’t enough.

This is not an isolated incident.

In that case, let’s talk soldier to sailor as I suspect I’ve been out much longer than you and can provide the perspectiveof what is being seen. You’re logically spoken, so I’m going to assume ~sgt rank and American.

During the US time in Afghanistan there was significant urban combat, with multiple civilians around, limited identification of combatants and a campaign to win over the local population so you had to be absolutely sure of your target and operations. This was not just the guy on the ground, but the operations planning at officer level, approval to senior command and in liason with local forces. Post patrol or fire fight the was debriefs, justification of actions, and improvement points to be discussed, remedied and distributed. This happens across theater, from rifleman to pilot to special ops. You likely sat in brief after brief, got frustrated at ops planning, and had to debrief and relive the worst day of your life in hopes lessons could be drawn to save lives down the track.

We civilians saw none of that. We saw videos of tomahawks being launched, helicopters flying, burnt out trucks. Civilians screaming, dead kids, burnt buildings. Coffins coming home, memorials, speeches.

What is happening in Israel is likely very similar. Im not Israeli intelligence so I don’t see the planning that went into the attack, didn’t sit in the ready room as the pilots got briefed, haven’t seen the after action reports - because this information doesn’t make it to the news and isn’t distributed. The best we have to go off is exactly the same as we had for America - there are laws around it, civilians will get harmed in virtually any conflict, but a person who is well aware of the damage they are about to inflict, where, and who else will be affected still has to press the button or pull the trigger knowing exactly where that round is going.

The flaw in your argument is not that you are incorrect - far from it. It’s the belief that because you were not directly involved to witness it it didn’t happen.

Jokes on you. I’m a ginger so I’ve just been “tactically acquiring” them.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Miramar_shootout

Same vibes

No it doesn’t, and you’re a shitty person for thinking that.

50% of the people alive in Palestine today weren’t born when the last election was held and then elections were shut down.

Nah the PLO is the official government of Palestine and is recognized as so by basically everyone, but they are stationed in the West Bank and Israel tries to keep them separated. Hamas has some control over Gaza and held an election decades ago before most of the people there could vote and hasn’t held another one since.

I don’t see how ANYTHING would justify bombing a hospital full of innocent people.

You’re a better person that me - I’m envisioning a gruff old racist nam vet who is proud of a few napalm stories, saying to just kill them all and move on.

That was best case scenario from a POV of someone who’s done the job. Regardless of your keyboard warrior virtue signaling, no one sane is going to sacrifice their people to save a known terrorist base.

I didn’t provide my personal opinion, I provided a description of why your view on the topic is insane.

Edit for clarification: The ELECTED officials of Palestine, HAMAS, their government, has taken their own people hostage and you expect the people who were offering a permanent peace agreement LITERALLY THE DAY BEFORE THE ATTACK, that had their peace party literally interrupted by an act of war by hamas, to sacrifice their own people to save potential attackers pretending to be victims?

Why can’t any of the countries that are asking that israel don’t bomb the hospitals send their own special forces to rescue the hostages? They have hostages of many nationalities so for example macron could risk the life of french soldiers to minimize palestinian casualties. I don’t get why they have to sacrifice idf soldiers.

Infantry are tasked to take the hill when it is strategically and operationally required, not when the enemy presents ‘hostages’ to which we cannot verify the identities of, nor confirm are not enemy combatants as the legal government, hamas, committed an act of war, Israel responded in kind, and in most full-war scenarios, the civilians are also considered hostile if they can be listed as ‘military age’.

The age of throwing soldiers into the hill with abandon is way over, you require intelligence and operational equipment and engagement now. (drones, munitions, local assets to guide the engagement/translate, vehicles, etc). Israel had a complete intelligence failure and to prevent mass casualties going in with infantry, they used the next best thing, artillery.

One of the leading causes of death in the Canadian and American militaries during the last two decades of engagements was due to IED or VBIED’s (vehicle born improvised explosive device), and every green military learned from this to do vastly more reconnaissance before wasting the LITERAL MILLIONS OF DOLLARS PER TROOP IN TRAINING throwing them uselessly at an enemy.

A fully qualified regular force of 11A(USA)/0010(CDN) is given around ~375k USD in training and development costs (per person) just to do their base job of firing a rifle, this does not include specialist training or anything beyond maybe how to effectively conduct a vehicle check point. All other skills require a vast amount of training as well as leadership courses, CQB courses, vehicle courses, medical check up, engineering courses, oreinteering courses, wilderness survival courses, etc.

Actions have consequences and where I would like the aggression to stop today, hamas still exists and their MANDATE of existence, their literal raison d’etre, if you will, is to eliminate all jewish people.

No one wants the killing of civilians, however the reality on the ground is the IDF using our weapons, uniforms, vehicles, and ammunition to gun down innocents and guilty alike, just like how we sell saudis weapons and how we sell weapons all over the world for abuse by various dictators.

This isn’t a situation where ‘stop, please stop’ is going to work for either hamas or the IDF and the US leadership is basically nonexistent with the current administration and if 45 wins again, the USA will probably crumble worse than Rome.

Everything will simply escalate from here, and with the continuing fall of governments across the African continent and economies failing in the EU, it’s not long before lines are drawn and an ‘axis’ is presented in the propaganda.

It’s not the IDF’s responsibility to protect Palestinians, it’s HAMAS’, the legally elected government of Palestine… You know, the country which just launched an attack against Israel to which Israel responded with violence and then hamas hid behind civilians in a hospital.

Can’t have missed it, it’s been all over the news.

I mean, they signed off to protect Israelis. If Palestine were Israeli citizens then maybe they’d have some obligation to risk their lives to minimise damage to them but otherwise why should they? Soldiers aren’t expected to sacrifice themselves for foreign citizens. Hell some are just brutally sadistic towards them with legal impunity because the citizens of one government have next to no rights in the other aside from whats deemed diplomatically useful and even that is beyond the purview of the average soldier. Theres a reason America switched to using drone strikes on enemy infrastructure instead of sending their soldiers. That has the exact same trade off as well which is more civilian casualties and less soldier casualties. The bad thing here is israel is actively targetting civilian infrastructure and hamas is known to hide in such infrastructure, both things raising the innocent casualty rate immensely.

I mean America funded and trained what became al qaeda as well. If your only justification here is Israel was aligned with another government 40 years ago and that means their personally responsible for all the people under that government jurisdiction while in hostilities with it then you’re talking crazy. The Palestinians are hamass responsibility as their representative. It sucks hamas doesn’t care about them and most Palestinians would reject them if able but i don’t get why that then means Israel is meant to care instead. Theirs a case for moral compassion from Israel but that flies out the window when hamas is actively attacking them from Palestinian territories. I’d be more inclined to support your viewpoint if hamas was only attacking Palestinians and Israel let them do it because they supported their rise to power in the past.

We should nuke it, then. there might be underground tunnels and bunker that run very deep. that’s only way to be sure that guy is dead. fuck everyone else, lmao.

No one here said that. Stop reading what you want to from what people say just so you can rant about it.

Terrorists kidnapping people, haven’t had any leads on where they are, but israel is taking its sweet time to plummet most of gaza infrastructures to the ground. Very very convenient excuse to drive out innocent palestinians off their land. hmm… it’s not like Israel helped create Hamas, and planned it.

Helped create hamas over a decade ago, yes. Planned what tho? If you say the Israeli government planned the October attack then you’re bordering on a qanon conspiracies level of uncoroborated BS.

Who’s betting they’ll find the hostages safe and sound, well taken care of, just after most of gaza becomes a wasteland and israel claims it for themselves. And they get a hero’s welcome while US, UN and EU gives a pat on the back.

No one. Some hostages have already died after excursion to Palestine so assuming hamas is treating them “safe and well” is very optimistic. Even if they wanted to their aren’t enough resources to care for actual Palestinians atm and Israel attacks don’t exactly leave leeway for safeguarding hostages. There’s a reason most hostages families are rejecting israels policy on this, its cause no one seems to be considering what would happen to the hostages and the government/bibi seem dead set on just retaliating for something they clearly should’ve been prepped to prevent.

Don’t tell me politicians haven’t sacrificed their own citizens to further their agenda. You’d be dumb ass propaganda guzler who needs to read a history book.

You’re reading a lot into a comment which basically amounted to someone saying this has nothing to do with the hospital and then someone pointing out the terrorist ran to hide in it at the end. Try not to conflate multiple pov and people together just so you can rant about everyone not being as flagrantly outraged as you. What israel is doing here is awful, no one is justifying that.

they do not in fact lose their immunity if there is a tank nearby

wuh-woh! ;3;

your endless sympathy for sick and injured civilians getting buried in rubble because of the actions of folks they have no control over is noted, you obnoxious scum

on second thought, this conversation was barely worth having the first time

I’m not okay with genocide against the Palestinians (or anyone else), hence the “pro-genocide” in my post above. I’m not okay with anti-Semitism either. I’m also firmly in the camp of “criticizing Israel is not anti-Semitic”.

Both Hamas and the IDF (by extension, the Israeli gov’t) are murderers or complicit in murder. Simple as that.

you completely misinterpreted their comment. they were contrasting the original comment made by Mean-Eye.

This is the first I’ve heard of it

Never seen any of those except the second one in the sense that it reflects articles like this and similar: timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-…

The other points are hexbear or lemmygrad trolls.

While the 1st and 3rd points are nonsense, there’s legitimate strong evidence for point 2. Far right Israeli politicians want this conflict.

haaretz.com/…/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be9000…

Which means there’s 3 sides to the conflict, not 2 - civilians and 2 governments. And a ton of people here are supporting mass murder of civilians because they were born on the wrong side of a border.

Edit: of course tribalists are downvoting facts with sources

Israel is responsible for Hamas’ own actions, often including the 7 October attack.

Israel not only created an environment where terrorism grows and thrives, they also funded Hamas early on in part of their effort to stamp out secular resistances. The burden of Hamas’ existences falls on Israel too.

No. I’m not seeing these talking points.

Okay genius, how do you kill them when they are in tunnels under neighborhoods? You cannot get into them without an explosion, even if present in person and they won’t just sit there either. This is not a war crime and I’m really questioning everyone’s collective intelligence and ability to think through problems instead of reacting to stimulus.

Go for it. If it is so easy you are welcome to go put yourself in harm’s way. Don’t criticize when you have not been faced with the decisions and a lack of full awareness. Hamas is not sitting out in the middle of a field waiting to be struck.

What possible line of logic would lead to that conclusion?

When someone says “Being a governing leader is really hard” they don’t talk about parties or meetings, they talk about these decisions.

I don’t think there are media controls on Lemmy but it also opens it up to automated propaganda and manipulation.

You are spreading their propaganda and disinformation.

Weird that the IDF didn’t indiscriminately kill civilians while raiding said hospital last night, then.

So much this. The Palestinian side has been more or less in stasis politically for what, a decade? Meanwhile Israel moves further and further to the right, constantly indulging their worst right flank including continued land theft. The Republicans in the US indulge Israel without question, while the Democrats question Israel without teeth.

Hamas and Netanyahu need to go as the baseline outcome of this debacle. I'm not sure how Hamas gets removed, or more importantly what takes its place.