from jeffw@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 22 Sep 2023 22:34
https://lemmy.world/post/5544703
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu angered Palestinians and their defenders Friday after presenting a map of “The New Middle East” without Palestine during his speech to the United Nations General Assembly in New York.
Speaking to a largely empty chamber, Netanyahu—whose far-right government is widely considered the most extreme in Israeli history—showed a series of maps, including one that did not show the West Bank, East Jerusalem, or Gaza. These Palestinian territories have been illegally occupied by Israel since 1967, with the exception of Gaza—from which Israeli forces withdrew in 2005, while maintaining an economic stranglehold over the densely populated coastal strip.
Middle East Eyereported Netanyahu also held up a map of “Israel in 1948”—the year the modern Jewish state was established, largely through the ethnic cleansing of more than 750,000 Arabs—that erroneously included the Palestinian territories as part of Israel.
Palestinian Ambassador to Germany Laith Arafeh said on social media that there is “no greater insult to every foundational principle of the United Nations than seeing Netanyahu display before the UNGA a ‘map of Israel’ that straddles the entire land from the river to the sea, negating Palestine and its people, then attempting to spin the audience with rhetoric about ‘peace’ in the region, all the while entrenching the longest ongoing belligerent occupation in today’s world.”
As Middle East Eye noted:
The inclusion of Palestinian lands (and sometimes land belonging to Syria and Lebanon) in Israeli maps is common among believers of the concept of Eretz Yisrael—Greater Israel—a key part of ultra-nationalist Zionism that claims all of these lands belong to a Zionist state. Earlier this year, Netanyahu's finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, spoke from a podium adorned with a map that also included Palestine, Lebanon, and Syria as part of Greater Israel. In the same event, he said there was "no such thing as Palestinians." The use of such maps by Israeli officials comes at a time when Netanyahu's ultra-nationalist government has taken steps that experts say amount to the "de jure annexation" of the occupied West Bank.
Netanyahu used the maps in an attempt to illustrate the increasing number of Arab countries normalizing relations with Israel under the Abraham Accords brokered by the administration of former U.S. President Donald Trump.
“There’s no question the Abraham Accords heralded the dawn of a new age of peace,” the Israeli prime minister said. “But I believe that we are at the cusp of an even more dramatic breakthrough, an historic peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia. Peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia will truly create a new Middle East.”
ritics have countered that peace between apartheid Israel and Arab dictatorships has come at the cost of advancing Palestinian rights. In the case of Morocco, the United States recognized the North African nation’s illegal annexation and brutal occupation of Western Sahara in exchange for normalization with Israel.
Netanyahu’s props on Friday reminded numerous observers of the time during his 2012 General Assembly speech when he used a cartoon drawing of a bomb to illustrate Iran’s progress on advancing a nuclear weapons program that both U.S. and Israeli intelligence agencies said did not exist.
#world
threaded - newest
Dick
what’s hilarious is… you know how everybody would respond if somebody showed a map without Israel on the map… the accusations of antisemitism would be swift, angry and quite probably violent.
The accusations would also be accurate. Just because Netanyahu is saying some batshit insane thing again doesn’t mean antisemetic fuckers get a pass.
I’m not saying they wouldn’t be. But… particularly among american evangelicals… the response is extremely disproportionate. for them, just because it’s israel… and they want to end the world (yeah. nutters think that the end times will only happen if Israel exists as a state…) netanyahu gets a free pass. in fact, if they see this, they’ll probably start accusing me of being antisemitic just for criticizing a secular head of state for being a prick.
Showing a map without and wishing Israel not to exist = antisemitism
Again, ethnic cleansing and apartheid is not a cultural trait. Israeli =/= Jewish.
Oh and how much ethnic cleansing is the average jewish person living in Israel doing?
Depends on whose house or land they’re living in/on.
Conflating Israel and Jewishness is antisemitic, especially when Israel is abusive to Jewish populations they don’t like, like the mizrahim and the Beta Israel.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.fbmac.net/pictrs/image/f97e427a-2eed-4c70-8034-090de9f2e471.png">
Israel in its current form absolutely shouldn't exist though. We should be against ethnostates as a rule.
I see this said a lot and it always confuses me. Wouldn’t an independent Palestine also be an ethno state?
Nope. Israeli law actively discriminates against non-Jews to the benefit of Jews, and the Israeli government government gives so much preferential treatment to Jews outside the law (mostly by taking away the rights of non-Jews) it's not even funny. AFAIK neither of the two Palestinian states that currently exist do that. I mean they discriminate against Jews, but not to the benefit of any particular ethnicity.
In an area full of ethnocracies, authoritarian regimes and dictatorships,I doubt that a free Palestinian state wouldn’t be one as well. After years of persecution from Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Jordan, Egypt… A free Palestinian state would most likely copy the Israeli model and make a refuge for all Palestinians of the world. I’m interested to hear why you think it wouldn’t be an ethno state.
The area is full of authoritarian regimes, but ethnocracies? Where are those?
I mean the "free" part is pretty dubious but there are already two Palestinian states and it doesn't seem they're interested in going down that route. Also considering being Palestinian an ethnicity is already pretty dubious when the Palestinian identity evolved as a response to Zionism in the 20th century. The factors that led to Israel being in its current state simply don't exist for Palestinians.
Lebanon, Turkey…
I would argue that we can’t really know because Palestinian states are not really free states - they don’t have an army, don’t have their own monetary system, limited foreign trade, Israel and other international bodies control it’s borders, Jordan controls it’s religious sites, etc.
I also disagree with how you characterise the Palestinian identity, but we can ignore that for the sake of discussion. According to 2018 statistics - West Bank: 72% Arab (Sunni), 28% Jewish. (We can ignore the Jewish number as is mostly in eat Jerusalem) Gaza: 98%-99% Arab (Sunni) Both have less than 1% Other.
But if you want to insist that they have a functional government(s) at the moment, then their demographics are worst than Israel’s. And I can’t see how it’s not an ethno state.
What kind of policies do the Palestinian authorities offer to attract minorities?
Yeah fair point about Turkey, but is Lebanon an ethnostate?
I mean you can call Gaza a lot of things, but they're free in the domestic politics sense. As in nobody can really tell them what to do with their people because they're already cut off from the world by Israel.
An ethnostate isn't just a state compromised of one ethnicity; it's a state that's meant for one ethnicity. Like, Germany is an ethnostate, for example. And then Israel takes that to another level by creating laws that favor that ethnicity. While most developed ethnostates have abandoned their ethnocentric roots, Israel actively embraces them. That's not how a modern state should be, as it compromises equality between citizens from the get-go.
Oh and also, while Arab is a collective identity, it's not an ethnicity. There are things you can call ethnicities within the Arab world (Egyptian, for example), but Arab itself is more of an umbrella term for native Arabic speakers.
No no that's not the level we're talking about. Jewish law actively favors Jews over non-Jews. Does any Palestinian state have something like that? A state that does nothing has that beat.
And Egypt.
This is incorrect. There’s a scientific consensus of nationality, ethnicity and identity. Arabs are an ethnicity. Egyptian are a nationality. I gave you demographical statistics, you can check them yourself - they clearly state Palestinian Arab (Sunni) - nationality ethnicity (identity). I’ve dropped the Palestinian part because of your previous comment.
This whole paragraph makes no sense. You use the same criteria but apply it differently as you see fit.
I didn’t see any facts to prove otherwise. There’s a reason why Palestinian minorities like the Palestinian Druze, Baha’i, etc. live outside of the Palestinian authorities - like Israel or Lebanon.
I was wondering if Ethno state actually means anything. But it seems to be just a buzz word that people use. Either that, or people conflate it with apartheid.
If you said that Israel is an apartheid state, I would agree with you. When there’s no difference in other countries, to say ethno state is hypocritical at best… or straight on antisemitic.
I’ll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume that you just confused your terms and meant apartheid.
Yeah true enough.
No no, Egyptian is a nationality and an ethnicity. Quick reminder that Egyptians have shared a collective identity for 6000+ years. And to correct myself earlier, Arab is also an ethnicity, but one that only applies to people from the Arabian peninsula. As an Egyptian I certainly wouldn't say I share an ethnicity with someone from, say, Qatar.
How so?
I didn't say Palestine didn't have discrimination. I just said that ethnic discrimination there wasn't baked into the law.
Now that I looked up the definition, what I was talking about was basically Apartheid, but I was talking more about the philosophy behind the policies that make it an Apartheid. So to rephrase myself earlier, Israel sees itself as the land of the Jews, not the land of Israelis, and bakes that view into law. Therefore any non-Jewish Israeli is automatically disadvantaged, creating an Apartheid state.
Also, as isn't brought up as often as it should, Palestinians are also semitic peoples. So being against them is also antisemitism.
That's as likely as people not using phobia incorrectly to disparage people they don't like.
This is really dark.
I’m honestly kind of shocked, Because I’m convinced that the two-state solution is dead, and the only two remaining options are the one-state solution – Israel recognizes Palestinians as Israelis and affords them civil rights and political agency – or the ‘no-state’ solution – expulsion and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the territory.
I know that Netanyahu isn’t alluding to the one state solution, so when he stops talking about a two-state solution it really makes it clear that he’s going all in on the other one.
The final one?
It’s funny how Israel is doing their own ethnic cleansing bit
There’s basically one far right playbook. Did you really think Netanyahu would change tactics just because he happened to be a Jewish right winger.
There only being that one playbook is the exact reason why I have a patch on my backpack that reads: "Evil is boring"
Excuse me but where is not accepting a “country” a genocide?
It's easily arguable that Israeli settlement amount and the way the government basically encourages it amounts to ethnic cleansing by forcing Palestinians out of their homes. It's actual Lebensraum shit.
Are we talking about “not accepting a country” or “bulldozing Palestinian homes to build Israeli homes?”
The part where they bulldoze homes, blockade shipments, steal land, and restrict rights. Want more?
Don’t forget about shooting kids.
48 children killed by the IDF this year alone.
About 200 adults have also been killed this year.
Violence from Israeli settlers has displaced over 1000 Palestinians this year, attacks have mostly focused on burning fields and killing livestock, and sabotaging equipment.
i’ll spell it out really slow like for ya if it’ll help.
israel’s treatment of the palestinian people is that of an ethnic cleansing.
they are removing their heritage sites.
flooding their farmlands during winter so they’re fucked in the spring.
constantly boxing in all palestinians that live in any of the palestinian territories that still exist.
shooting palestinian women, children
shooting journalists and medics that choose to help or report on the situation.
bulldozing their land and homes to make room for new israeli settlers that will happily steal that land from the palestinians.
responding with disproportionate force after palestinians are goaded into defending themselves. one molotov should not equal days of missile strikes.
they have consistently “accidentally” targeted school buildings and hospitals for missile strikes during disproportionate responses.
basically all of these actions amount to ethnic cleansing, which is a facet of genocide.
israel’s M.O. is to act like nazi lite, then when the world takes notice and outrage occurs, they back off. during that time, they lobby the US government and pull strings and make threats.
and if you criticize israel at all for their behavior on the world stage? well then you’re just a fucking antisemite, and they’ll be quick to call it that.
they spend some of the most money of any world government using social media teams to protect their country’s interests.
you’re looking at smarter nazis with better PR and lots of money.
Is this the most egg you’ve had on your face?
What egg to the face? I say my opinion people don’t like it, i block them, they can cope to themselves.
Either you’re okay with being a piece of shit or your ignorant to the facts. Either way, you look like an idiot. That’s the egg on your face.
Im German and LGBT. I just don’t give a single fuck about people that want to genocide Jews and or LGBT people, wich means i absolutely do not give a fuck about “Palestine”
Yep every person in Palestine hates you because you’re gay.
You can have compassion for people and still not like them. You’d think someone in your position would understand that. Nobody deserves oppression.
Oh i don’t support oppression, wich is why im very pro Israel, as its a democracy.
Ah so you’re a garbage person. Got it.
As said, the amount of care i got for your opinion nears the absolute 0. Cope.
„garbage person“ wow, well done. I wouldn‘t want you on my side
If you’re taking their side of this then you aren’t on my side.
Take care.
It wasn‘t about that of course. I don‘t understand why you’d want to call that person that. Because you think what he said is garbage?
Israel is a dictatorship.
Just because they’ve elected a right wing government, doesn’t make it a dictatorship…
Fuck off back to hexbear.
What?!? Hexbear is exactly the opposite.
Also im here for longer than you.
This is one of my 7 accounts. Little 3 month adopter.
Or you could try learning from the responses people give you, maybe even recognizing the new information they have given in response to your question. After all, asking a question invites answers.
Why the hell should i do that? I gave the question with the intention to block people being pro “Palestine”
Read any chapter of history, particularly in the last several hundred years, and you’ll find no end of answers to this question.
I find infinite awnsers to why not to listen to some internet people, especially regarding politics.
Boycott divest sanction
Of all the things that the Jews have learned from their history, you’d think “genocide is bad” would be one of the first and most important ones…
It’s not genocide if the others are not real humans! And Palestinians can’t possibly be real humans, if they’re against the Israeli Reich!
Mike Peled(author of The Gererals Son) has also written that Israel’s educational system is designed to turn Israeli children into racists who view Palestinians “as culturally inferior, violent and bent on the annihilation of the Jews, and…void of a true national identity,” and “as a problem that must be solved and as a threat that must be eliminated.”
mikopeled.com/…/ethnic-cleansing-of-invented-peop…
Many have. And then there’s the far right.
Can’t you see that israel needs this lebensraum?
And unfortunately the world is doing nothing to stop them achieving their goal. No sanctions, no political isolation, no international outcry.
It just comes to prove how wicked international politics is and clearly showing the double standards there, where our allies are good no matter what they do. And believe me, if something like this was happening in Russia, China the reaction of the West would have been completely different. And no, I am not defending any of the sides for their wrongdoings, I am just triggered by the hypocrisy.
I mean, it happens in China…
It’s happening in Sri Lanka, China and India right now.
I guess the Arab countries that oppose them are doing something, but Israel have some powerful friends
Are the arab countries doing something? I’ve been educating myself on the situation, and historically the other Arab countries’ support has been very limited, at best. This has largely been due to the US’ influence on the region and players like the Saudis not wanting to upset their relationship with the US, despite their public proclamations of support for their Arab brothers and sisters.
But I’m also not very informed on the current state of things, so perhaps support has increased in recent years?
I’m not well informed, but sometimes there are some news headline like “Iran Bans Weightlifter for Life Over Handshake With Israeli”
To be fair, I don’t recall anyone with reasonable arguments and approach doing something strong against them. I think all reasonable countries want to be on the good side of the USA
Ah okay. The book I read went through 2017, and I don’t really know of trustworthy news sources to keep up with current events in that region.
Yeah the political posturing like getting upset over handshakes is nothing new (altho AFAIK that kinda support has increased in recent years) but as far as actual substantial support, it has often been quite hard for Palestine to get it. (for many reasons)
I read a book called the olive grove when i was a teenager about the true struggles of a palestian family when isreal took over. Its such a sad and messed up story that spans three generations. Ever since reading it ive been pro palestine. For anyone who loves reading should give it a try.
Fuck Israel and it’s leadership, the people are complicit or actively supporting a genocidal regime. And fuck the US for their continued support in propping up this aggressive shit stirring nation
No they’re not. I’m Israeli and I hate this government that doesn’t represent me at all. This is the same as saying all iranians agree with Khomeini. Haven’t you seen the demonstrations going on everyday for like 6 months?
Complicit or actively supporting. I’ve seen too many Israelis, members of the public canvassed on the street, in support of atrocities and how they talk about the Palestinians in general.
I’m not going to assume every person in Israel is an aggressive bigot warmonger, but the people allowed for it to get this far. The leadership is corrupt and evil and represent you.
It’s not a personal attack on you, it’s genuinely disheartening to see that there is support for the leadership among the people.
While I agree with you, you must recognize this is also true of almost every nation. Native American rights remain a universally ignored issue in American discourse, for example.
That is the definition of two wrongs not making it a right though. I get what you are saying though, it’s not a unique issue. But it is a current event, with recent roots and western approval. Living in the west this makes it more of an issue for me than other such cases and it being current makes it more important to me than the native American issue. Though the native American issue is important to me they are not hunted from their houses during the night…anymore.
For a people who have been through multiple attempts of being genocided, the Israeli government sure does have a weird love for genocide.
It’s hypocritical but not surprising. Humans as a collective are pretty shit most of the time. It’s just the same game with different nouns.
Their passions include genocide and drawing lines on maps.
Stop electing this fucking assclown.
Guess they are tired of pretending their policies are different.
I’m more puzzled about Sudan. What are these maps about, what’s “New Middle East”? I looked up articles about the speech but they don’t really clarify the deal about Sudan
Egypt and Sudan have a border dispute.
More than that, though, Sudan is an Arab-majority state. Many Arab countries have not recognized Israel as a legitimate state. This is basically Israel’s attempt at getting recognition from those countries which historically fail to recognize it, improve relations, and solve border disputes between said countries.
what is it with countries and bullshit maps lately