No, the point is that they are made specifically to make children addicted. It’s not the “think of the children” hoax like for ex. videogames because (most of) them are not made to be addictive or to appeal specifically to children, actually that’s the exact opposite most of the times. In other hand, vapes are specifically built and engineerd to be addictive to children even without using nicotine or psychoactive substances. Just like it should be illegal to put high amounts of sugar of corn syrup in sweets
SupraMario@lemmy.world
on 01 Feb 03:18
nextcollapse
Lol Roblox??? And every damn gatcha game out there.
Think of the children bullshit line…vices exist, and adults make adult choices… because they’re adults. Prohibition has never caused black markets ever…
They are not made specifically to make chicken addicted. Some companies did, but vaping itself wasn’t made to get children addicted… It is addictive, and not as smelly, and doesn’t make you cough your tar covered lungs out, so kids who can get their hands on them get addicted.
Kids will still get them, but now they’ll have more questionable ingredients, they’ll be more expensive, and they’ll be funding organized crime. Good job government.
Teach your kids about the importance of saying no, and let them make their own mistakes every now and then. Vaping is hardly the worst thing they can get hooked on.
From what I’ve read, there are 2 chemical-kinds of nicotene, 1 of which is called “freebase” nicotene, which hits quicker, & therefore is more addictive.
Yes, cigarette-tobacco has been bred ( if not engineered ) to increase the freebase nicotene ( can’t remember which company it was that got caught on that, their actions demonstrating that it’s a drug they were optimizing-for ),
& vape-companies intentionally engineer their products to be as addictive as they can be.
Children don’t have fully-myelated-brains ( until about 21, which is why outlawing drinking until 21 so drastically reduces slaughter of lives on the roads ), & holding that they just have to “be more adult” when their brains literally can’t be, is either denial or machiavellianism ( depends on the person’s motivation ), AND victim-blaming, in my view.
What Mexico’s doing, effectively, is GIVING a chunk of their economy to the drug-cartels.
Which is idiocy.
Decriminalize everything, tax it to death, do whatever, but we need to be gutting, not increasing, organized-crime’s economy.
Nicotene kills the nervous-system of the gut, & it’s likely doing the same kind of damage to the rest of the nervous-system ( Dr. Gershon’s incorrectly-named book “The Second Brain”, about the nervous-system of the gut, which is the original brain! )
_ /\ _
blackris@discuss.tchncs.de
on 01 Feb 09:45
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Freebase was the standard in Vapes for many years. Vaping liquids with freebase nicotine will keep your nic level up for the day. There is not a kick involved. This is different with nic salts. They behave like the nicotine in cigarettes.
Also current vapes have a much higher percentage of nicotine. When I vaped (comming from smoking), I mixed my liquids with 6 mg/ml. I think the standard today is 20 mg/ml. That is the reason, kids like them. Not the taste. You have much smaller clouds, than in the previous generations, but the high doses of nic salt give you a real nice kick.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Feb 16:44
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Also current vapes have a much higher percentage of nicotine. When I vaped (comming from smoking), I mixed my liquids with 6 mg/ml. I think the standard today is 20 mg/ml.
Ehhh kinda. First of all when I started in like what 2012 using Kangertech pods and sticks, the vaporblunt brand liquid we were buying came in 0, 3, 6, 12, and 24mg options, and that was freebase liquid in the early days. Then mods came out and you didn’t need that high (and it would hurt lol) so most liquids were sold in 0 (sometimes, but it started falling off), 3, and 6mg options. Then salt nic came out, but due to being absorbed differently by the body and consumers mostly not wanting to use sub-ohm mods instead opting for smaller devices ~1.6ohms, the nic contents went back up (as high as 50mg, actually), but since it’s salt not freebase and something about the absorption and the amount of smoke difference from .1ohm to 1.6ohm it sort of evens out. ~45-50mg is still a little more iirc than say sub-ohm dripping a 3mg freebase, but not as wild as it sounds.
I make my own juice anyway at 4mg freebase.
blackris@discuss.tchncs.de
on 02 Feb 17:34
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Wow, 50 mg/ml is wild. I am out of the game now for a while, I am Vape and smoke free for nearly two years now. Maybe those 20 mg/ml are/were a german thing.
Here we had restrictions (and high taxes) for some years now and you only could buy nicotine liquids in 10 ml portions with max 20 mg/ml. So for some time we bought 1 liter of 0 mg base and mixed it with the small 20 mg packages and flavour.
I tried those nic salt vape pens a few times and while you are probably right and the nicotine level in the body doesn’t differ wildly, I always experienced a hefty buzz from that.
But maybe that was the result of me trying to suck on those pens like on my Dead Rabbit SQ RDA. 🤷
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Feb 17:48
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Yeah but honestly not that wild due to how it gets absorbed and how little vapor you get. Not for me but y’know to each their own, I’m already on the other end of the nic spectrum myself anyway.
Yeah you definitely can get a buzz easier from salts especially using a dripper haha, they’re meant for like Juuls lmao. That’s intense!
You’re sort of right it’s not all of them with lead, just the biggest disposable brands with toxic metals. ELF, ESCO, JUUL, SMOK MODS, Flum Link to research. They’re already illegal in the US, but are still widely distributed and sold here with no signs of slowing.
Because its arguably worse than smoking cigarettes overall.
The health effects aren’t researched enough for a proper comparison between the two, but at least short term studies, while being inconclusive, show that vaping is just as damaging as smoking. The glycerine based liquid can damage your lungs more than smoking would. And while cigarettes have a lot more different carcinogens, what matters more is the amount.
In addition to that, vapes taste a lot better than cigarettes, which removes the first hurdle that smoking usually has. And this isn’t only relevant when talking about children, its the exact same thing for adults. Most smokers I know startet smoking more when they switched to vapes.
Then there is the whole issue with one time vapes and batteries in landfills
TheRealKuni@piefed.social
on 01 Feb 16:34
nextcollapse
but at least short term studies, while being inconclusive, show that vaping is just as damaging as smoking
Citation needed. Every study I’ve seen, with the exception of the ones where they were burning wicks, has shown the opposite. Vegetable glycerin and propylene glycol are far less damaging than burnt plant matter.
Most smokers I know startet smoking more when they switched to vapes.
Anecdotal, and I can counter with my own. When I vaped, the vast majority of people I knew who did were former smokers. I don’t know that I’ve ever met someone who went the other direction. I could see that happening among younger people, but switching from vaping to smoking is one of the most braindead things a person could do.
Then there is the whole issue with one time vapes and batteries in landfills
So ban single-use vapes, or come up with a core-charge recycling scheme like we do with lead-acid batteries. Lithium batteries are recyclable.
NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world
on 02 Feb 09:42
nextcollapse
I’ve read stories of certain flavors having chemicals that aren’t good to be vaping as well. That’s not a vaping issue though, that’s a regulation issue about what can be in the vape liquid. It’s is or at least was the wild wild west on what was being put in them.
I could see that happening among younger people, but switching from vaping to smoking is one of the most braindead things a person could do.
Why would anyone switch from one addictive nicotine delivery device to another? Why do you think tobabacco companies own vape companies or Zym? To keep you sucking the nicotine while you pay.
TheRealKuni@piefed.social
on 02 Feb 14:58
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Obviously. So if you do vape, buy your liquid from a local shop and don’t use disposables.
Vaping is a safer delivery system than smoking. Nicotene addiction is bad, but banning the safer delivery system is idiotic.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Feb 16:25
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Or make your own juice, it’s easy as fuck. So much cheaper too a bottle costs me like $3.
TheRealKuni@piefed.social
on 02 Feb 16:28
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100%.
I made my own liquid for a couple years. Made it extremely really easy to taper my nicotine amount and quit.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Feb 16:49
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If I were trying to quit I would too (and will if that time comes), I just wanted to switch from a pack and a half a day to vaping lol.
TheRealKuni@piefed.social
on 02 Feb 17:09
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Totally understand. I quit in early 2020, when I heard reports from other people who vaped that, when they got COVID, dealing with nicotine withdrawal at the same time as COVID was awful. I decided it was finally time to kick the habit just in case.
Edit: this also meant my life insurance payments went down. 🤣
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Feb 17:12
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…I just vaped with covid hahaha. Fuck it we ball.
Iirc I did use zyns sometimes too if need be, I always keep a few around for “emergencies” anyway (like planes or whatever, or for a while my boss would call on the radio a code that basically meant “no vaping our landlord is here” and so I’d pop one in for the hour or two he’d be bugging us).
So because the studies haven’t found out that they’re more dangerous than smoking, means they’re arguibly worse than smoking? Solid logic.
Just FYI, glycerine has been used in smoke machines in concerts/events for decades with no known found risks. Better don’t look up what your soap contains
Make more sense than huffing large volumes of unknown chemicals from Chinese factories that are completely unregulated or tested.
What’s with these weird wild assumptions? You clearly have an agenda. Who tf buys sketchy Chinese vapes and why is this even your argument? What goes into your vape, is actually regulated in both EU and US and regulations actively follow science. Ie. It was found that a compound diatecyl harms users and is found in some vapes. Regulations quickly banned that shit and it’s no longer found in vapes.
Trust the science.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Feb 16:23
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Btw the thing with diacetyl was overblown itself. The only recorded cases of popcorn lung came from a microwave popcorn factory working with the powdered form and no respirators, where it acted like asbestos and settled in the lungs. It has never been observed from the liquid form (or literally anywhere but that one factory actually, but), and never been observed due to vaping. Moreover, traditional cigarettes contain 2,000x the diacetyl that any vape did, and nobody has ever gotten popcorn lung from those, either.
Basically don’t rail lines of diacetyl powder (or just wear a respirator if you’re in a microwave popcorn factory on the “butter floor,”) and you’ll be fine.
Because huffing random unknown chemicals from a Chinese factory is not the great idea it seems.
Captainautism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 31 Jan 17:52
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When are the old conservative governments going to learn the lesson here?! Anytime you prohibit something it only gives all of the power to the streets? So dumb.
lofuw@sh.itjust.works
on 01 Feb 04:44
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I think they know, they just don’t care at this point.
that may be the way they want it. My understanding is that it’s hard to get into mexican politics without a connection to one of the various cartels.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 01 Feb 12:51
nextcollapse
Prohibition just gives power to the smugglers and the enforcers. Imagine if all consumer drugs and related shit was just legalized across the hemisphere. No more chartels, drug war, drug running, drug police. Just taxes, public health interventions and regulatory enforcement. Canada took the first step with cannabis and guess what, society hasn’t collapsed.
Manifish_Destiny@lemmy.world
on 02 Feb 10:29
nextcollapse
They took it further in Oregon and then underfunded the enforcement and intervention so heavily I’m fairly certain it was on purpose to kill the program.
Canada also had gay marraige and we didn’t all turn gay.
Cannabis legalization was kinda hilarious, it was not driven by some open minded agenda or crime, it was driven by Boomers in Toronto looking to get rich off selling weed. TSE boomed on pot stocks, then the same Boomers decided to invest in their little Stoner Jimmy, and suddenly every convenience store on every block was replaced by two dispensaries.
5 years later, the stocks are mostly worthless, and most of the dispensaries shut down because people either buy online or grow their own. But we have seen an increase in addiction and pot-related diseases, two things the internet says can’t happen with pot.
blackris@discuss.tchncs.de
on 02 Feb 15:46
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This won’t work. The kids don’t use them because of the flavour but because of the flash. Even if the liquids tasted bland, you can easily add flavour.
ArcaneSlime@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 02 Feb 16:14
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Adults hate things that taste good, and kids never used to smoke cigs that tasted like shit before vapes. Solid plan lol.
mexicancartel@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 01 Feb 17:30
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Boom
NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml
on 01 Feb 17:51
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I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that these were the intended consequences. Mexico knows better than most about the consequences of prohibition.
ParadoxSeahorse@lemmy.world
on 02 Feb 14:01
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What could possibly go wrong if they’re unregulated
threaded - newest
Oh man, another delivery from Cyberpunk Dystopia Cliche of the Month Club?! We have got to cancel that membership
Why in the fuck would you ban vaping? I mean unless cigarettes are ALSO banned.
It’s more appealing to kids is the reasoning.
So is all kinds of shit. Doesn’t mean it isn’t safer for adults than smoking.
Just answering your question dude, go whinge somewhere else.
“think of the children”…cause that’s never been the dumbest fucking reason to do something…
It’s the reason they banned sugar, and that’s turned out pretty well hasn’t it?
What? Sugar is banned? In which country?
I don’t know, but Mexico has a town where they drink more Coke than water.
American kids drink more soda than water.
Mexico… Mexico has banned sugar in schools and also high fructose corn syrup from being used in anything.
You know you could just google this…. Yeah….? Also context made this pretty damn obvious as well.
No, the point is that they are made specifically to make children addicted. It’s not the “think of the children” hoax like for ex. videogames because (most of) them are not made to be addictive or to appeal specifically to children, actually that’s the exact opposite most of the times. In other hand, vapes are specifically built and engineerd to be addictive to children even without using nicotine or psychoactive substances. Just like it should be illegal to put high amounts of sugar of corn syrup in sweets
Lol Roblox??? And every damn gatcha game out there.
Think of the children bullshit line…vices exist, and adults make adult choices… because they’re adults. Prohibition has never caused black markets ever…
They are not made specifically to make chicken addicted. Some companies did, but vaping itself wasn’t made to get children addicted… It is addictive, and not as smelly, and doesn’t make you cough your tar covered lungs out, so kids who can get their hands on them get addicted.
Kids will still get them, but now they’ll have more questionable ingredients, they’ll be more expensive, and they’ll be funding organized crime. Good job government.
Teach your kids about the importance of saying no, and let them make their own mistakes every now and then. Vaping is hardly the worst thing they can get hooked on.
From what I’ve read, there are 2 chemical-kinds of nicotene, 1 of which is called “freebase” nicotene, which hits quicker, & therefore is more addictive.
Yes, cigarette-tobacco has been bred ( if not engineered ) to increase the freebase nicotene ( can’t remember which company it was that got caught on that, their actions demonstrating that it’s a drug they were optimizing-for ),
& vape-companies intentionally engineer their products to be as addictive as they can be.
Children don’t have fully-myelated-brains ( until about 21, which is why outlawing drinking until 21 so drastically reduces slaughter of lives on the roads ), & holding that they just have to “be more adult” when their brains literally can’t be, is either denial or machiavellianism ( depends on the person’s motivation ), AND victim-blaming, in my view.
What Mexico’s doing, effectively, is GIVING a chunk of their economy to the drug-cartels.
Which is idiocy.
Decriminalize everything, tax it to death, do whatever, but we need to be gutting, not increasing, organized-crime’s economy.
Nicotene kills the nervous-system of the gut, & it’s likely doing the same kind of damage to the rest of the nervous-system ( Dr. Gershon’s incorrectly-named book “The Second Brain”, about the nervous-system of the gut, which is the original brain! )
_ /\ _
Freebase was the standard in Vapes for many years. Vaping liquids with freebase nicotine will keep your nic level up for the day. There is not a kick involved. This is different with nic salts. They behave like the nicotine in cigarettes.
Also current vapes have a much higher percentage of nicotine. When I vaped (comming from smoking), I mixed my liquids with 6 mg/ml. I think the standard today is 20 mg/ml. That is the reason, kids like them. Not the taste. You have much smaller clouds, than in the previous generations, but the high doses of nic salt give you a real nice kick.
Ehhh kinda. First of all when I started in like what 2012 using Kangertech pods and sticks, the vaporblunt brand liquid we were buying came in 0, 3, 6, 12, and 24mg options, and that was freebase liquid in the early days. Then mods came out and you didn’t need that high (and it would hurt lol) so most liquids were sold in 0 (sometimes, but it started falling off), 3, and 6mg options. Then salt nic came out, but due to being absorbed differently by the body and consumers mostly not wanting to use sub-ohm mods instead opting for smaller devices ~1.6ohms, the nic contents went back up (as high as 50mg, actually), but since it’s salt not freebase and something about the absorption and the amount of smoke difference from .1ohm to 1.6ohm it sort of evens out. ~45-50mg is still a little more iirc than say sub-ohm dripping a 3mg freebase, but not as wild as it sounds.
I make my own juice anyway at 4mg freebase.
Wow, 50 mg/ml is wild. I am out of the game now for a while, I am Vape and smoke free for nearly two years now. Maybe those 20 mg/ml are/were a german thing.
Here we had restrictions (and high taxes) for some years now and you only could buy nicotine liquids in 10 ml portions with max 20 mg/ml. So for some time we bought 1 liter of 0 mg base and mixed it with the small 20 mg packages and flavour.
I tried those nic salt vape pens a few times and while you are probably right and the nicotine level in the body doesn’t differ wildly, I always experienced a hefty buzz from that.
But maybe that was the result of me trying to suck on those pens like on my Dead Rabbit SQ RDA. 🤷
Yeah but honestly not that wild due to how it gets absorbed and how little vapor you get. Not for me but y’know to each their own, I’m already on the other end of the nic spectrum myself anyway.
Yeah you definitely can get a buzz easier from salts especially using a dripper haha, they’re meant for like Juuls lmao. That’s intense!
“I don’t like it and neither should anyone else.”
There’s lead in virtually all of them.
maybe in unregulated ones, which is what you get when you ban them
You’re sort of right it’s not all of them with lead, just the biggest disposable brands with toxic metals. ELF, ESCO, JUUL, SMOK MODS, Flum Link to research. They’re already illegal in the US, but are still widely distributed and sold here with no signs of slowing.
Because its arguably worse than smoking cigarettes overall.
The health effects aren’t researched enough for a proper comparison between the two, but at least short term studies, while being inconclusive, show that vaping is just as damaging as smoking. The glycerine based liquid can damage your lungs more than smoking would. And while cigarettes have a lot more different carcinogens, what matters more is the amount.
In addition to that, vapes taste a lot better than cigarettes, which removes the first hurdle that smoking usually has. And this isn’t only relevant when talking about children, its the exact same thing for adults. Most smokers I know startet smoking more when they switched to vapes.
Then there is the whole issue with one time vapes and batteries in landfills
Citation needed. Every study I’ve seen, with the exception of the ones where they were burning wicks, has shown the opposite. Vegetable glycerin and propylene glycol are far less damaging than burnt plant matter.
Anecdotal, and I can counter with my own. When I vaped, the vast majority of people I knew who did were former smokers. I don’t know that I’ve ever met someone who went the other direction. I could see that happening among younger people, but switching from vaping to smoking is one of the most braindead things a person could do.
So ban single-use vapes, or come up with a core-charge recycling scheme like we do with lead-acid batteries. Lithium batteries are recyclable.
I’ve read stories of certain flavors having chemicals that aren’t good to be vaping as well. That’s not a vaping issue though, that’s a regulation issue about what can be in the vape liquid. It’s is or at least was the wild wild west on what was being put in them.
Why would anyone switch from one addictive nicotine delivery device to another? Why do you think tobabacco companies own vape companies or Zym? To keep you sucking the nicotine while you pay.
Obviously. So if you do vape, buy your liquid from a local shop and don’t use disposables.
Vaping is a safer delivery system than smoking. Nicotene addiction is bad, but banning the safer delivery system is idiotic.
Or make your own juice, it’s easy as fuck. So much cheaper too a bottle costs me like $3.
100%.
I made my own liquid for a couple years. Made it extremely really easy to taper my nicotine amount and quit.
If I were trying to quit I would too (and will if that time comes), I just wanted to switch from a pack and a half a day to vaping lol.
Totally understand. I quit in early 2020, when I heard reports from other people who vaped that, when they got COVID, dealing with nicotine withdrawal at the same time as COVID was awful. I decided it was finally time to kick the habit just in case.
Edit: this also meant my life insurance payments went down. 🤣
…I just vaped with covid hahaha. Fuck it we ball.
Iirc I did use zyns sometimes too if need be, I always keep a few around for “emergencies” anyway (like planes or whatever, or for a while my boss would call on the radio a code that basically meant “no vaping our landlord is here” and so I’d pop one in for the hour or two he’d be bugging us).
So because the studies haven’t found out that they’re more dangerous than smoking, means they’re arguibly worse than smoking? Solid logic.
Just FYI, glycerine has been used in smoke machines in concerts/events for decades with no known found risks. Better don’t look up what your soap contains
Make more sense than huffing large volumes of unknown chemicals from Chinese factories that are completely unregulated or tested.
But it’s pointless to argue with addicts on Lemmy or Reddit.
I dissolve my soap in water and wash it down the drain. Do you heat up your soap and suck in the fumes?
What’s with these weird wild assumptions? You clearly have an agenda. Who tf buys sketchy Chinese vapes and why is this even your argument? What goes into your vape, is actually regulated in both EU and US and regulations actively follow science. Ie. It was found that a compound diatecyl harms users and is found in some vapes. Regulations quickly banned that shit and it’s no longer found in vapes.
Trust the science.
Btw the thing with diacetyl was overblown itself. The only recorded cases of popcorn lung came from a microwave popcorn factory working with the powdered form and no respirators, where it acted like asbestos and settled in the lungs. It has never been observed from the liquid form (or literally anywhere but that one factory actually, but), and never been observed due to vaping. Moreover, traditional cigarettes contain 2,000x the diacetyl that any vape did, and nobody has ever gotten popcorn lung from those, either.
Basically don’t rail lines of diacetyl powder (or just wear a respirator if you’re in a microwave popcorn factory on the “butter floor,”) and you’ll be fine.
The glycerol in vapes, when heated, becomes dihydroacetone, which is OSHA regulated in a factory because it’s carcinogenic.
Because huffing random unknown chemicals from a Chinese factory is not the great idea it seems.
When are the old conservative governments going to learn the lesson here?! Anytime you prohibit something it only gives all of the power to the streets? So dumb.
I think they know, they just don’t care at this point.
The world is run by and for morons.
that may be the way they want it. My understanding is that it’s hard to get into mexican politics without a connection to one of the various cartels.
Prohibition just gives power to the smugglers and the enforcers. Imagine if all consumer drugs and related shit was just legalized across the hemisphere. No more chartels, drug war, drug running, drug police. Just taxes, public health interventions and regulatory enforcement. Canada took the first step with cannabis and guess what, society hasn’t collapsed.
They took it further in Oregon and then underfunded the enforcement and intervention so heavily I’m fairly certain it was on purpose to kill the program.
Canada also had gay marraige and we didn’t all turn gay.
Cannabis legalization was kinda hilarious, it was not driven by some open minded agenda or crime, it was driven by Boomers in Toronto looking to get rich off selling weed. TSE boomed on pot stocks, then the same Boomers decided to invest in their little Stoner Jimmy, and suddenly every convenience store on every block was replaced by two dispensaries.
5 years later, the stocks are mostly worthless, and most of the dispensaries shut down because people either buy online or grow their own. But we have seen an increase in addiction and pot-related diseases, two things the internet says can’t happen with pot.
Excellent summary.
And indeed even for a pendulum swing, it hasn’t been anywhere near as dramatic as the anti-legalization moral panic discourse would suggest.
I think a better approach is to ban it for underage.
Waste of time. They just buy it from a kid a few years older.
Add a ban to flavored ones 🤷♂️
This won’t work. The kids don’t use them because of the flavour but because of the flash. Even if the liquids tasted bland, you can easily add flavour.
Adults hate things that taste good, and kids never used to smoke cigs that tasted like shit before vapes. Solid plan lol.
Boom
I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest that these were the intended consequences. Mexico knows better than most about the consequences of prohibition.
What could possibly go wrong if they’re unregulated