from HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works to world@lemmy.world on 05 Jan 22:21
https://sh.itjust.works/post/52887571
Volkswagen will restore physical buttons to the dashboard in its latest compact car, part of a wider move away from touchscreens.
In a particularly retro touch, the new ID Polo will even have a volume dial.
For a decade or so, automakers rushed to replace knobs and switches with screens, Autoblog noted in October, but users largely disliked them: Controlling the air conditioning, for example, required delving through submenus while driving, which was both difficult and dangerous. Research found that using touchscreens took longer and distracted drivers.
Hyundai, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche, and VW have all announced plans to return to more tactile controls, and US and EU regulators announced last year that cars with touchscreen controls could get worse safety ratings.
#world
threaded - newest
So happy.
Hope our current car holds out long enough for those buttoned cars to arrive in the used car market.
Exactly what I’m saying.
Touchscreens in cars was a terrible development. The natural haptic feedback of physical buttons is a must, while operating a vehicle.
Touchscreens are wonderful in a car, just not for basic functionality. You can pry my Android Auto out of my cold dead hands.
The mini-map and cameras are nice on touchscreen too.
Then there’s me who disables that every time I get into a work car with it. I’ll just put my GPS in the cup holder, thanks.
Yes, that’s the idea after your distracted driving caused fatal accident. Exactly!
Not like I can watch movies on the thing, bub. It's navigation and 99% of the time my audiobook player. Which, guess what, I control from my steering wheel. And it's an audiobook. What's there to be distracted by?
The audiobook? The answer was contained in your question. The result varied by type of drive though. They improve drivers during boring drives and well:
I thought I saw another study some yesteryear about spacial reasoning tasks demanded by some audiobooks (describing a scene, what a building looks like, where it is etc) impaired spacial reasoning while driving. While music doesn’t use spatial reasoning hardly at at all. That’s why I stopped using audiobooks while driving, but I can’t find it so maybe I’ve been lying to myself all along.
The takeaway: boring drives secondary tasks could be good. Complex drives secondary tasks could be bad. I’ll stick with music but be more readily muting it for potentially interesting interactions. In a use the secondary task to keep focus and identify the hazard, once identified mute secondary task to react to the hazard.
But I play focus games while driving anyway. I don’t indicate out of habit: I reason if there’s someone to indicate to, then decide whether to indicate. I find it forces observations and space/speed reasoning to infer whether my changing direction presents a hazard to someone somewhere.
You can have Android Auto without a touchscreen. My newish Mazda has joystick like controls for the screen.
Seems even more distracting than a touchscreen.
It’s not a joystick per se, it’s a tilting knob, kind of like a 3D mouse. Older Benz models had the same setup, it’s great.
Still requires you to stare at a screen while guiding a 3000lb slab of steel in public.
Up to a point. The rotation wheel has tactile feedback, it works really well in practice.
The Mazda rotary dial is awesome. It does 90% of what a touchscreen does, and voice control or a passenger can do the rest. If it can’t be done with three or four clicks of the wheel or Siri, then pull over safely and use the phone.
My old car had an aftermarket touchscreen CarPlay headunit, and I much prefer the buttons and dials on the newer Mazda. Borrowing somebody else’s (usually newer) car with a touchscreen feels like a massive step backwards.
Sadly it looks like they’re also falling for the touchscreen b.s. on the ‘26 year vehicles, big L for safety.
Yeah there is a lot of fuss about the cx5 turning to touchscreen and people hating it (in literature, not sure on the experience side yet). I have a 2020 and like the setup it has for sure.
Phone holders are wonderful in a car. Get rid of the built-in touch screens entirely.
Phone integration with the car is handy. Bigger screen + integrated controls. I have volume controls on my steering wheel and a button to issue voice commands to Android Auto.
A $200 tablet and $50 holder is much more capable than the built-in touch screen. The built in touch screen is adding more $2500 to the price of the vehicle.
Others will say that touch screens are replacing physical buttons to reduce cost. So which is it? Touch screens add big cost or touch screens reduce cost?
/Not aimed at you, since you didn’t assert conflicting info
cost != price.
The costs involved with that touchscreen are in the tens of dollars, and much lower than the myriad physical hardware it replaces. The costs of producing the car are considerably lower. The price manufacturers charge for that vehicle are considerably higher.
Try to replace a defective touchscreen: the charge for the proprietary replacement screen is more than a flagship phone, but provides fewer capabilities than a budget tablet.
I recently fixed a phantom/ghost problem in my GMC acadia by replacing the touch glass for about $100. It was easy peasy. Had I taken it to the dealership, I assume it would have been a $1000 repair as they would have replaced the whole head unit rather than just the warped glass.
I’m not going to speculate on the cost (or price) differential, but due to the requirement for backup cameras, screens have been required in cars for almost 10 years now (in the U.S. , no idea about other vehicle markets). However, these need not be touchscreens.
Touchscreens are good for context-sensitive controls. They don’t make sense for basic controls that should always be available.
I’m fortunate that I have a good touchscreen for use with Android Auto + physical buttons for things like HVAC and volume.
If they’re undoing changes that customers hate, maybe they’ll get rid of automatic stop-start too?
How does this automatic start stop work that you don’t like? And what brand of car is your experience with?
I have a VW ID.4 and I have no idea what you mean? If I use adaptive cruise control it will stop if the traffic stops, and it will start again automatically when traffic moves again. Working exactly as it is supposed to.
However if I don’t want that, I can touch the break at any time, which obviously disables cruise control, and release the break to roll slowly forwards like a traditional automatic in drive gear position.
Or if I hold the break for a short while, it will engage auto hold, and only go forwards again if I use the speeder.
Auto hold can be disabled if I don’t want it. But I like the feature, as I’m used to drive a manual.
Everything works perfectly and intuitively, I’ve only had the car for a month, and it’s so nice to operate compared to an older car.
If I don’t want the adaptive cruise control, that too can be disabled, and it will work like a traditional dumb cruise control.
Edit: The post I responded to is apparently about start stop of the engine, which was in no clear, especially since automatic start stop of the car is a common feature of modern cars, just saying start stop in no way indicate the engine more than the air condition.
No, this is a feature that cuts the engine off when you’re at a stop. Then the engine re-starts when you try to accelerate again. Or if the AC needs to kick on. Or if the car needs literally anything. It’s jarring, and it’s little more than a gimmick that manufacturers used to improve gas mileage in testing.
And you know, reduce unnecessary emissions
I’ve yet to find any testing that would indicate it doesn’t work, only few where the effect has been quite small.
But even the tiniest effects become massive when multiplied by the amount of vehicles on the road. Like how turning your headlights off and using LED DRLs reduces fuel consumption by roughly 1-3%, which is quite a lot less pollution once you multiply that by the 250 million cars zooming around the EU and so on.
Stop-and-start systems usually result in a reduction of emissions somewhere between 3-10% in city traffic. That’s huge.
But because most people find it a tiny bit irritating, you are required the massive effort of pressing a button to turn it off every time. Most quickly realize it’s not all that irritating, because having to press a button to turn it off is actually more irritating, and so it stays enabled for a few hundred million cars reducing emissions.
I disagree. I like a car that does what I tell it to do. On older cars, when I press the accelerator they accelerate. On cars with stop-start (and mine does), when I press the accelerator it starts the engine, then accelerates.
And it’s not like it reliably turns the engine off anyway. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn’t. If i so much as touch the sterring wheel it restarts the engine. If a pigeon sneezes nearby the same…
And lastly, it will wear out your battery slightly quicker according to the guy who replaced the battery that died on my car.
OK that’s very different from start/stopping the car, which is an actual function of modern cars. He should have specified he was talking about the engine.
I’m used to driving a car from 2008, but I borrowed a friend’s 2021 Subaru Forester and there the engine just shuts off after the car is stopped for a few seconds, even without any sort of cruise control. The engine turns back on when I let go of the brake, but I find the noise, the vibration, and the delay of the startups irritating. There’s no way to get the feature to stay off - it defaults to on every time the car starts and it will eventually turn back on while you’re driving even after you’ve pressed the button to turn it off temporarily. I find that especially irritating. (IMO it’s simply not OK for a car to do something after I’ve pressed the button telling it not to do that.)
Well IDK if VW is better in that regard, what I do know is that it’s to save fuel, and ICE cars are on their way out anyway. So it’s kind of a moot point to talk about improving on them now IMO.
That’s not the feature they’re talking about.
Which I suspected, so I started out asking what the “feature” actually is!
Turns out it is NOT automatic start stop of the car, but of the engine. Very poorly formulated post IMO.
That was a federal regulation that Trump undid. Won't get rid of it on your car, but it will for future cars.
Really? I wonder what model year will have cars available without it. I was thinking of buying a new car but I can wait.
Complaining about making less pollution. And demand improvements on ICE cars that are going obsolete.
Wake up FFS! This is not the 90’s.
Buttons that you can use without looking at them, please.
On my old car, the temperature dial had a notch, and you could set it to heat/cold by whether it was left or right of center, now it’s a free-spinning dial. Old fan control was a dial with stops, now it’s two buttons with no tactile distinction. Old vent selector was a dial with stops and I knew the foot/defrost setting was one from the top and the foot/body setting was one from the bottom, now it’s a single button same as the fan buttons that cycles through all the options. If I want to change anything, I have to wait until I’m at a red light or something so that I can look down and fiddle with it. I used to be able to do it all blind.
One of my cars has climate control with a knob, so I have to look at the (small) screen to see what the temperature is.
My other car has a hot/cold knob that I can just crank all the way to the stops. It even turns the A/C full blast on full cold.
I prefer the latter.
If you just leave the climate control set to a temperature that you find comfortable then the car will heat or cool as it needs to, to achieve that temperature.
I know cranking it over to hot or cold probably makes you feel better but it won’t make the engine warm up any faster or make the aircon cool any more.
Yes but I want the absolute maximum heat or cool it can provide, starting immediately. Even if the air coming out is only slightly warmer/cooler it’s still warmer/cooler.
I can always turn it down later.
My understanding of climate control systems is that it does only provide maximum heat or cool. There’s a temperature sensor in the cabin that tells the car when it’s at the right temperature, but until that point is hit, it is heating or cooling as much as it can.
The only difference between climate control and traditional a/c is it knows when to stop and when to turn on again
Your understanding is wrong. I’ve tested the output air on both settings in the winter. Max heat had like a 30° difference. The engine doesn’t want to pull that much heat unless necessary because it reduces fuel economy when the block isn’t saturated. So unless you specifically ask for 110° air, it’s going to give you 80°
Most car ac systems are either on, or off. They don’t have variable compressor speeds. They cool at maximum until they reach the temp you set then they switch off. If the temp rises again then they switch back on.
A non EV cars heat is provided by the coolant that circulates through the motor. Nothing you can do will make the heater heat up faster.
Even if they do, feedback systems generally run full blast until they just about hit the target number, then tweak it from there.
Nothing I can do? If I drive my car at higher rpms, wont that make the engine hotter thereby also heating the coolant faster?
Yes that is true, I assumed everyone knew that 90% of engine wear occurs during the warm up period so you’d be foolish to ever run the car harder than needed in that period.
I was referring to turning up the heat to full or anything you can do in the cab as the poster seemed to think he could get more heat from the old analog systems faster than a standard climate control system.
It’s shocking how many otherwise educated people don’t understand how a thermostat works.
In the old car, it was an analog system. These systems are digital in newer cars. So while you may get a knob or button, it's still sending digital signals. That's why there's no distinction when you turn the knob, because there literally isn't a distinction.
to be fair, it’s an encoder and the distinction is in the “direction” of turn. they could indeed make it both an encoder and tactile but where’s the profit in that?! :p
My car is like that, you can adjust temperature without looking at the screen, and the temp knob has detents every half a degree.
It’s good to see manufacturers going back to physical controls for key functions.
Finally undoing the damage to design apple and John goingToSt Ives did.
If only we would also undo the other trends apple did, “Treating the customer like they are stupid”, walled gardens(we control your device not you) and everyone’a favourite: it’s in the store for 99cents
Edit: there’s a time and a place for multi touch, capacitive screens; it’s with unorthodox uis or things with a heavy emphasis on portability and video.
Blame Tesla for starting this garbage.
I think the Iphone came before the massive boost in tesla popularity.
But Tesla was the first to glue an iPad to the dash that does everything, because Tesla builds cheap crap and buttons cost money.
is that why my fucking electric hob has no buttons? no. the general wave that led to the fucking car having an Ipad was… the iphone
Thanks to these visionary titans of industry we’ve now got 10+ years of used cars with HOT GARBAGE interfaces. Guess they learned their lesson eventually but the used market is screwed for a long time.
Before buying our latest, the family sat down and defined the minimum physical controls a car needs to have; functions that are used often while the vehicle is actively moving.
Wipers, maybe. Automatic wipers are annoying, but deemed not a dealbreaker as long as the others above are present.
It was shocking how many makes/models did not even meet the bare minimum.
Are they? I like mine - not having to operate my wipers manually like some kind of peasant.
Ja bitte!
I swear I’ve seen an article about that every year for at least the last 4 years. It’s always about Volkswagen too. Are they really changing things or they’re just talking about it?
The next generation of vehicles typically takes 4-5 years of design to be released, so I’m not sure what else you expect?
The new Toyota crown has lug
studsbolts. The vein in my forehead when I saw itIsn’t this fairly typical for Japanese cars?
No. European
Definitely not. I’ve worked on Mercedes, BMWs and VWs and they all had wheel bolts. I’ve seen plenty of Toyotas, Lexus and Mitsubishis with lug nuts though.
Yeah I’m saying the new crown has wheel bolts and I don’t like it, we’ve been calling them lug studs but I see now they’re called wheel bolts
What the hell is lug studs?
Instead of studs that come out of the hub and a lug nut bolts down on the other side of the wheel, you have a threaded lugnut as one piece that bolts from the outside of the wheel into the hub. Less diy friendly imo and seems far less secure
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7f93a4ba-e7a5-4c05-b62c-6351bfa12705.jpeg">
I had a vehicle with the lug bolts, but it was more like an Allen key with the hex in the middle. Caused me all sorts of trouble when the head cracked while I was trying to change a tire.
Sounds like one of those anti-theft sets where one lug bolt requires a special key. The rest (or on my old Golf: all of them) are standard 17, 19 or 21 mm heads.
Yes, it’s called a wheel bolt. And they are much better than studs in every way. It’s why all the German brands use them.
Edit:
Yeah, no, eat a dick. Wrong
Ah yes the genius engineers that brought you the easy to maintain and repair: audi, vw and Mercedes. Germans do a lot of things right but cars are not one of them
It is maybe less DIY friendly because the wheel will not stay on the hub without at least one bolt inserted. Once you realize that’s the case, you put the wheel on and one of the bottom lug bolts maybe 2-3 turns in to prevent the wheel from falling off. I don’t see how they would be any less safe than studs and nuts. You tighten them to the appropriate torque spec and will never lose a wheel. The only other disadvantage I see is that you’re not gonna be able to easily fix badly damaged threads, but when and how would that happen?
Yes. Well with regular studs you can hang the wheel off the studs and it’s easy to line up. Also yes with studs you just replace the stud, with wheel bolts you’re tapping the hub to repair it or replacing the hub. It’s just enshitification to sell parts and laboris what I’m getting at
My car is 26 years old, with OE hubs and wheel bolts. My family traditionally had VWs; none ever had any issues with broken threads or bolts. I’m pretty sure that the approach works and has worked for many decades.
Well it’s dumb
Skill issue.
This seems like a weird thing to mention because every stupid touchscreen car I’ve driven still has a volume dial.
It’s not, when many have buttons and not a dial, and the Golf Mark 8 specifically had two capacitive (IIRC) surfaces under the touchscreen.
Describing volume dials as “retro” is setting a very low bar for what can be considered retro. Also, it should have been super obvious to car makers from the start that using a touchscreen for almost everything was a really bad idea! As others have pointed out, you need to be able to control the car without having to take your eyes off the road for more than a couple of seconds.
Did they really need research to realise that?
They needed research to realise the cost was greater than the savings.
Touchscreen interfaces are absolutely wonderful if you are a car manufacturer, as they massively accelerate the designing process; slap a rectangle in the centre console and start manufacturing the car, you have until first units are sold (or even way later, yay updates) to figure out how it looks and works. And you don’t need to make and assemble hundred little dials and buttons either, just a single screen.
Same goes for the speedo etc display, but there at least everything is purely visual and being customizable is actually a benefit for the user too.
I wouldn’t have minded quite so much if they made everything voice controlled. But all my speech recognition system can do is just call and text people. It can’t turn on the AC, you can’t even navigate to a destination with the GPS unless you go into the GPS app first.
Also it would be really nice if the activation phrase was something other than the word “hey”, you know perhaps they could go with a word that isn’t said 5,000 times a day anyway.
Peak control design
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/fa0e03fc-3b02-40d3-8e2f-2b45541cd590.webp">
The car I drive now is the newest car I’ve ever owned. It’s a 2006 Suzuki Grand Vitara, V6 AWD. I like everything about it. I’ll keep it running as long as I can.
This is what a car should look like inside. Everything in reach, physical knobs I can set without looking, no distractions. Peak design:
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8c8e6dbd-0e99-46eb-a144-6a76e0288c7b.jpeg">
No internet account required, of course, which also means they can’t nerf my car from the other side of the planet, or charge me for 50 more HP, or heated seats. The most sophisticated display is the red LEDs that tell time, outside temp, and real time MPG. Also, I like having a car I actually own, Suzuki doesn’t want anything to do with me, and I don’t want anything to do with them. It was a one-time transaction, like a hooker and a john. We’re not in a fucking life-long relationship.
Cars should not be this inside. While I agree it’s cool and futuristic, it is not practical. Form should follow function, everything about this is the opposite:
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/bdac1815-977b-491e-960a-a8d07ccd8803.jpeg">
Not only no physical controls, but no fucking instrument cluster either. Tesla interiors are such a bad design. I don’t like the exterior design either, but that’s more of an aesthetic preference than a functional one.
Wow that’s a very cool looking cabin on the Suzuki!
We had an Opel Vectra from the same year, with leather cabin and manual 6 shift gear. We really liked that car, and would have kept it longer. But safety regulation required some pretty expensive repairs to keep it legal, and the yearly tax on petrol cars that don’t have high mileage is becoming pretty significant here in Denmark.
But our VW ID.4 is a far cry from as bad as the EV you are showing.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/85e4cb9b-fa92-4331-a5ee-1aa981615809.webp">
Everything required for everyday driving has buttons and levers like traditional cars.
VW is already doing it pretty well IMO, improving further on it to include for instance air condition is nice, but no biggie IMO.
But again your Suzuki look REALLY nice. 😎
Why is the ocean in front of and behind the car? The mirror never lies. :)
My 2002 Eclipse and 2004 F150 have the exact same climate controls. Three dials. All ya need, adjustable without a glance.
Wife’s 2014 Outback has gray buttons with black markings by day, nearly identical red markings at night. “Is that front or rear defrost?” Got in deep shit the other night because, all at once, the interior windshield fogged, rain was misting too light to clear the outside, wiper fluid smeared a gray screen in front of me. In old cars I could have slammed the front defroster without a glance, been back in business within seconds.
You can’t flip the rearview mirror with a mechanical switch. Blinded from behind? Use your muscle memory to find the up/down buttons to move the motorized internal mirror, takes a few seconds. But it has a cute rearview display! Which is broken. BTW, you can’t see the buttons, just use the Force.
I loathe modern cars. My 2004 truck runs circles around her broken down 2014. Oh, and my 2004? Can’t figure out how to change the plugs without 5-hours of fucking hassle.
Finally, some good fucking cars
I don’t own a car and probably never again will, but God damn yes. Knobs not screens in a vehicle.
I wish they sold this model in the USA. We need a good selection of compact models
Please bring this to North America. Please god.
Nope. Trucktards won the war.
This seems like an obvious improvement and I kind of want everyone who thought otherwise to be banned from working in decision making roles.
It’s way cheaper and easier to not have to source the buttons. The bean counters saw Tesla get away with doing it on the touchscreen, so they figured they’d get away with it, too.
Yeah, never mind the additional casualties caused by distracted drivers.
If VW made a car that randomly exploded every time it went over 40 miles an hour they would still sell it if in some way that saved the money.
Tesla has the highest crash rate of any manufacturer. In particular, rear ending other cars. It’s the stupid touchscreen.
Source?
I’m not a journalist. Search it. Start here, forbes.com/…/tesla-again-has-the-highest-accident…
It’s a function of touchscreens, high acceleration rate and very heavy vehicles which are difficult to stop in rain and snow.
Maybe. Not disagreeing but I’ve never seen data to support that, have you? Some people blame it on self-driving, some blame it on the higher performance, and yes the touch screen is plausible. But we need to know. That accident rate is too high to be guessing.
Unfortunately my experience supports all of the above
Imitating the trending brand or model, including their terrible design decisions. It drives me nearly insane that so many companies do this. Look at how many companies have been copying Apple’s horrible hardware design decisions over the last few decades. SMDH
I think you just move a lot of cost and resources towards software instead of actually making it cheaper.
It’s cheaper to use one screen. They make the decisions based on profits and not anything else. They’re only changing things back because of safety issues.
not quite - they’re changing things back because they think they will make less money if they don’t, as a result of safety ratings being affected by their shitty cheaper screen design
that’s a bit more clear than the way you worded it, which could be understood as they are choosing to do this of their own volition because they think that it is safer and the best decision
I know that’s what you were trying to say, but that last sentence just needed clarification, because I want this to be very clear that they do not give a fuck about safety, they ONLY give a fuck about making money. also see: blinding LED headlights
This is horrible. People i think tend to equate the poor user interface that a lot of traditional car makers have, with the general idea of a touchscreen. I have 4 buttons on each side of the steering wheel and everything else is touchscreen (or voice command), my air-conditioning controls have a shortcut interface on the screen. I almost have a panic attack getting into a car with all physical controls, at worst in my car I’m searching through the one screen, not hunting through a field of obscure symbols with no standardisation on where anything is, and all those little lights.
If you’re having to spend so much of your trip accessing all those physical controls in a modern car, whilst driving, then your car is poorly designed.
That seems odd to me. I think most of us learn where the physical controls are, and then operate them by touch while driving.
We don’t take our eyes off the road to read the brake pedal or gear shifter, either. ;)
I would be excited about this coming from anyone but ‘lets make it neumatic’ VW
Yeah that’s the real reason they’re moving back it’s got nothing to do with the complaints from the customers because they’ve been ignoring those for over a decade. They just know that people won’t buy their cars if it receives a substandard rating.
But hey I’ll still take the win.
Now get rid of point-source quasar LED headlights. OK, we get it, science now allows us to get every electron in every atom to emit bazillions of photons every picosecond. That’s nice. Like AI, we don’t need it and no one asked for it.
I agree with all of this except the end.
People absolutely asked for AI. I hate it, but it’s false claiming it wasn’t desired. Tons of people in STEM fields dreamt about it for years.
Well… We still don’t have AI. We got language and picture generators…
Wrong. See the Nobel Prize to Google Deepmind team.
Prediction and pattern recognition is not general AI. This is just what LLMs and image generators do. They find plausible continuations starting from a noise to better fit the disired outcome. They don’t have real contextual knowledge about a domain. To them everything is just numbers that can be manipulated until they fit better. They don’t just instantly know the correct or incorrect answer because of a deeper understanding on the matter.
And I never said we did, so what’s your point?
Not a native English speaker but “dreamt” is past tense, so they stopped dreaming, implying they stopped because now we have “AI”.
The people wanted actual reasoning AI, not generative AI. They didn’t expect us to devote most of our nominal economic activity toward a few big tech companies to get it. They didn’t expect them to assert that text generators are ‘reasoning’ and when called on it declare that it’s not reasoning as humanity has known it, but here’s some buzzwords to justify us claiming it’s a whole new sort of reasoning that’s just as valuable.
Even though it’s not intelligent at all, chatGPT seemed groundbreaking when it arrived. Big promises were made and implausible amounts invested, and it doesn’t really seem to have gone anywhere since. It’s the same thing, just a bit better.
And I’d be more ok with LLM technology in general if not for:
In and of itself, ok a neat little trick with some utility so long as it isn’t taken too seriously.
I’m in STEM and have published a few AI based papers. I don’t want this in my house, car, or healthcare.
That’s great, and I am also in STEM and agree with you. But we’re only two people.
Yeah and I’ll counter-vote one of you.
I’m familiar with the use and the limitations of LLMs so I’m familiar with use cases where it adds value and where it should not be allowed
Realistically the biggest issue for consumers is privacy: most of the generally available LLMs hoover unprecedented quantities of personal data. But they don’t have to. There are choices that respect your data
There’s an underlying dystopian theme here that goes beyond LLMs and voice assistants where the technology for collecting personal data keeps getting more intrusive far beyond the nightmares of the general public. They have no idea how much they are losing and the harm it can do
I agree 100%, but the fact still stands that plenty of people absolutely want it, even if they don’t understand and are wrong about what it is.
the fact that blinding headlights are rated as “safer” is a prime example of how fucked up vehicle regulations and evaluations are
it also creates the opportunity to see just how much of a jackass the average person is - if you flash your brights at them because you can’t fucking see, they’ll turn their high beams on back at you. and you can see posts all over the internet where people love flashing people back, like there just isn’t any defense for that behavior. and the funny thing is that it often doesn’t even make a difference, because the high beams are no brighter than the low beams, they’re just aimed higher - so if the low beams are already hitting you in the face, turning the high beams on isn’t going to hit you more in the face
I asked for it. Brighter lights are safer. Seems to be a US problem, apparently most states either don’t have technical inspections or they don’t test the headlights. Adjust them correctly and it won’t be a problem. But “Muh freedumbs”…
It’s a problem in the Netherlands as well. Many cars have lights that are too damn bright.
We need to go even farther, not go back.
Brighter headlights are better for safety to allow drivers to see more …… but clearly humans can’t be trusted with them. Active matrix headlights are the best answer.
I find it fascinating to drive with high beams on, but watch a dark spot in my headlights follow oncoming cars so I don’t blind them. Everyone should have them
I met one of those cars the other day. Was absolutely fascinating watching the headlight matrix dim to not blind me. I am left wondering, how good it is at noticing bikes and pedestrians though.
Mine does not act on pedestrians
I haven’t been in a situation to see if it reacts for bicycles. It seems to react to lights, rather than shapes so it’s possible
Tangentially relevant. Anyone seen the new Microbus? It’s appalling. They gave it angry headlights like every other stupid generic car on the market. A hideous grille. And it’s got a giant flatscreen tv for all the interior controls. All in a 60s throwback vehicle specifically chosen for its nostalgic character. How do these people get promoted into decision making roles???
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/ae8f9104-1da0-4074-81df-cc5bcb5e5aa2.jpeg">
is this the new one? It has the angry headlights lmao
Never forget the VW emissions scandal. These cats are all about the bottom line; re-packaging nostalgia in only the most marketable way is exactly how and why.
I saw it in person at the weekend, and tbf it did look kinda cool, but I am not a car guy
The concept looked cool and they talked about releasing it for the last 20 years but the proportions on the outside of the production version are all wrong.
Good. Hate touchscreens. It never fails that as you are going to touch something, you will hit a bump and miss. And that’s after taking your eyes off the road to find the button or dig through 4 menus to find it.
they have to
it’ll be a law in china in the future
And EURO NCAP (who make safety ratings for cars) have said they’ll stop giving 5 stars, if a car has no physical buttons for essential controls (i dont reclal what they believe is essential though)
apparent it’s
turn indicator signals, hazard lights, windshield wipers, and the horn
That’s weird, no car has those in the touch screen. Dumb steering wheel placement, sure (tesla), but still physical.
I also object to the hazard light button in my Tesla. While it’s great that it’s a physical buttons, it’s not tactile - I can’t use it without taking my eyes off the road
It’s not that weird IMHO. Anything driving related should be a button or a stalk, like EuroNCAP is saying. All non-driving related stuff can be on screen, which I believe is fine. Personally, I think people have been driving the wrong vehicles, or drive older vehicles, when they say that they can’t use HVAC controls on a touchscreen. It’s not that much more different than a button, in most cars it’s in a dock on a touchscreen, easily accessible. I also strongly believe that you don’t use the HVAC buttons as much on newer cars, because the systems have become so much better, that’s probably also what the manufacturers see in their data when deciding for their new designs.
The touchscreen hate is a little blown out of proportion IMO. People that drive Tesla’s hardly complain about the touchscreen, mostly about the removal of stalks. I also don’t hear people complaining in newer BMW’s and other more luxury brands, even though those brands use touchscreens for a lot of stuff these days.
I meant I find the announcement weird, because there aren’t any cars currently to have those controls listed as touchscreen buttons. And the emergency lights already has to be a physical button, at least in the EU.
Maybe it’s about preventing those features…
Yeah perhaps. I can imagine that the indicator buttons on Tesla’s was the final straw to take this action, before other manufacturers started pulling of weird shit like that.
Ferrari did it before Tesla, just slightly more logical.
That touchscreens in cars are still allowed while using a phone is not?
You are supposed to look at the road, yet we have roadside billboards.
You are supposed to go the speed limit but it is safer to follow the flow of traffic if everyone is speeding.
ID.BUZZ with physical buttons, 4WD and an upgraded heat pump (the current one is designed for ID.4 sized cars) would be the perfect car for me.
The ID buzz needs significantly more range for me to consider it.
How much range do you need? My Chevy Bolt has a range of ≈350 miles, and it’s rather mountainous around here.
The id buzz has notoriously bad range, even worse than advertised, I think real world testing puts it a bit over 150 miles on a charge
That’s more than enough for daily commuting, though.
You don’t buy an ID.Buzz for commuting though. It’s for adventure! So low range is a problem in this one case.
Ya, it is but not for 70k+.
AFAIK it’s partially due to it being built on the ID.4 chassis
Excellent
While I agree mechanical buttons are better for driving than a touchscreen, I think voice controls are better than either and prefer it.
While I haven’t compared recently, just a year or two ago, I was comparing usefulness of voice assistants with a co-worker. I experienced very accurate responses, whereas he found them useless. As someone speaking English with a heavy accent, the voice assistants could not understand him.
Voice assistants can be useful but there are still too many people who can’t use them
100% but every interface is going to have some level of exclusion & requiring more inclusive language models or better user onboarding to say some phrases related to specific commands can be required by regulation. I think probably the best imo is a voice interface that falls back to mechanical buttons if we’re trying to maximize usability and safety.
“Car, help, I need the police”
“Sure. Now playing The Police.”
“Every Breath You Take” plays as you bleed out impaled on the steering column.
Do you have a “call police” button in your car now?
Yes, but I do drive a refurbished 1966 Batmobile and this comes standard.
I’ve never had a car with a police call button, but I’m not sure how much help that’ll be if you’re impaled if you could still reach it maybe.
Time for some cassette futurism design!
8-track would be interesting. ;)
Unironically I want this so bad, I’m one of those Gen Z guys who grew up around old tech but I love my clunky 1970s-1990s tech. There’s just something viserally satisfying about sloting in a tape.
I meant no irony either and I can point at one good reason for cassette futurism design: the soundscape.
I added a old radio with a Minidisk player into my car when the radio died
Fucken hell the fuck did you find a minidisk player? That’s unironically awesome, though whenever I see minidsiks I think of Starship Troopers.
My pencil is ready
EDIT: This is not a euphemism
Why can’t it be both?
My PEN IS working.
Who knew that would happen eventually after sensor screens failed time and time again at worst possible moments?
I hope regulators pay attention to technology this time instead of just reacting.
My car has controls with no physical buttons but I can control with voice assistant. Technically that means I can do it without taking my eyes off the road but it’s physical buttons are much better
VW cars are just so fucking behind it is laughable.
And you know what? So is Polestar/Volvo.
Don’t buy Chinese. Byd doesn’t even have 1 pedal driving.
While Tesla is still by far the most advanced tech car, you need £10 subscription to their network to get full use of their app. The likes of Korean manufacturers are really closing in the gap.
Porche is very unfortunate, Taycan is genuinely a lovely car, my best driving experience in EV… But they’re flawed in one crucial way… Thief magnets! Be it your lights or the car itself, not only are they prone for very low skill attacks, insurance is insane on them because of it.
Merc and BMW I think are just overpriced. While they’re not bad, they’re poor value for money.
I got no experience with Lucid or Rivian, but having chatted with genuine owners and watching reviews, they seem to be gunning for tesla at much higher price without delivering. Lucid software is plagued with bugs to this day.
Happy to answer any questions about EVs, it’s genuinely a fascinating scene and I’m lucky enough to be in dealership heaven, if a car manufacturer exists in the UK, I have a dealership 10 min away from me. I would suggest people to just go out and test drive! An hour or two of driving brand new car and having sales people kiss your ass, many got some good coffee.
Porche by far was the best “buying” experience. I was told to bring it back whenever as long as it’s back before closing. Only manufacturer to do it. Tesla offered overnight test drive which is also neat.
The swasticar manufacturer has the most advanced tech car?
Their cars are a joke. Opening glove boxes through menus. Getting rid of almost all buttons to just install a giant monitor in the middle?
And don’t get me started about their full self driving robo taxis next year since ages ago. At no point in time (even before the rest of the world caught on that Elon is a complete moron) was buying a Tesla a good idea.
Have you ever actually used one? Been inside one?
I’ve heard tesla drivers complain about a lot of things but the infotainment console is far above what other manufacturers do. Thats not because it’s great, it’s because other manufacturers are just worse. 🤷
Any car manufacturer who removes the instrument panel from right infront of the driver and placing the instruments in the infotainment system deserves to fail.
They’re not interested.
Robo taxi on the other side of the planet is meant to sway my opinion on the car…
Ah yes, robo taxi is what makes the car bad?
You’re not interested in an answer. You’ll just rewrite reality to fit your narrative. You can hate Elon and tesla all you want, doesn’t change the facts. As someone once said, science cares not about your opinion.
The car is bad because of it’s inherent design flaws and bad UX.
Robo Taxi, “not so full self driving” and similar things don’t make the car bad but show the practices Tesla uses to lure people into buying a car. By promising features they can’t deliver. Same with Tesla Semi, new Roadster, etc.
About hating Elon. Hate is a strong word but he is clearly a faschist moron. That doesn’t make cars technically bad but I’d like to hear some arguments how a moron being in charge helps the company make better cars.
And regarding science, there are some papers that show that cars with screens are way less safe because you have to look away to interact with it and that “glorified cruise control” too because you should pay attention because the car has too many flaws but in practice people stop paying attention.
So your response to “I don’t care about taxi that’s not going to be available to me” is to bring a truck to the discussion?..
Then you ramble on preferences and bring cruise control into this like every other car doesn’t have those and the screen being worse in 90% of the competition doesn’t exist, but that makes tesla bad?
Give me a fucking break, like I said, you’re rewriting reality. Go to Ford, I’m sure the screen being so far down at thigh level makes it so much safer! Or porche with their haptic screen? Or maybe let’s look at MG with everything behind hidden behind 4 menus? Oh while we’re at it! How come every car is now advertised as “its quick to turn off lane assist! Just takes few taps or dedicated button!” How about they make the lane assist actually work and not piss off the driver?
There were several cars I went to test drive where they turn it off before I got into the car.
But hey, Tesla has so many flaws! Not like they’re the most efficient and don’t need to have 30% bigger battery… No no no, that’s fine, we’ll ignore it, right? Because let me check notes… Ah yes, glove box is opened through screen. Pack it up boys, Tesla is done for. This guy came in and vaguely pointed irrelevant things to win the argument about personal cars.
Nature is healing?
Natura is healing indeed.
Not till we have robust, strong, public transit and walkable communities and the majority of personal cars are gone.
So long as I can keep my sports convertible for weekend cruising (350Z Roadster Touring 6MT in Daytona Blue), sign me the fuck up.
Touchscreens are so dangerous. Glad to see buttons coming back.
I’m almost surprised pedo elon didn’t make literally everything touch screens in his death traps, right down to the brakes and steering
Good. Now put round headlights on your new electric vans. They’ll look even better.
Great. Now (for cars in general) remove all the unnecessary computerization nobody asked for and have a physical link between the throttle, transmission and the pedals. That’s sure to help with all the sudden unintended acceleration issues that also cause drivers to be unable to shift into neutral because the computer (a single point failure) decided to shit the bed.
Yesss, now i can replace my 2016 car that still had buttons! (Not that i will… or need to…)
How is this the most upvoted news? The US liberally just went to war with Venezuela.
My guess? Because people are getting overwhelmed with Trump shit so like to be reminded of the olden days when news like this meant little to nothing.