oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 18 Sep 2024 15:48
collapse
These are extremely targeted attacks, not aimed at the wider population. It is meant to more than scare Hezbollah members for sure.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 18 Sep 2024 15:49
nextcollapse
So would you say it’s using violence to instill terror and achieve political goals?
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 18 Sep 2024 15:51
collapse
Terrorism, in its broadest sense, is the use of violence against non-combatants to achieve political or ideological aims.
Since this targets explicitly combatants, it’s not terrorism.
Different definitions of terrorism emphasize its randomness, its aim to instill fear, and its broader impact beyond its immediate victims
The attacks are extremely targeted, and thus not random at all. No terrorism.
wildbus8979@sh.itjust.works
on 18 Sep 2024 15:54
nextcollapse
Since this targets explicitly combatants
Hezbollah is, also, a political party. It’s military wing was formed to fight the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space
on 18 Sep 2024 16:32
nextcollapse
It is classified as a terrorist organisation by the majority of the international community. By legal definition, all Hezbollah members are terrorists regardless of what they do in the organisation, in the same way that all SS members are war criminals even if they were an office janitor or something, which makes them legitimate targets in a broader way than ordinary combatants who are bound and covered by the laws of war.
superkret@feddit.org
on 18 Sep 2024 17:29
nextcollapse
in the same way that all SS members are war criminals
That’s absolutely not how the nazis’ war crimes were handled post-war.
Only those with a direct active role and sufficient knowledge were charged in the post-war trials.
90+% of the SS members just went right back into their pre-war jobs.
(At least in the western part, the Soviets were much more…thorough in their de-nazification.)
Also, a janitor in a civilian building will never be an active combatant by any stretch of international law, no matter which organisation they belong to.
InvertedParallax@lemm.ee
on 18 Sep 2024 17:40
nextcollapse
Do the confederates next, they were back in power in 10 years and terrorizing black people with the KKK shortly after.
AllNewTypeFace@leminal.space
on 18 Sep 2024 18:38
collapse
In law, every SS member, without exception, was axiomatically classified as a war criminal, with membership being sufficient evidence in itself. Of course, the western allies were not above looking the other way if it potentially meant the difference between victory and defeat in the Cold War, but this was an informal policy imposed from high up.
pandapoo@sh.itjust.works
on 18 Sep 2024 17:59
collapse
I don’t know if you grew up during the color coded terror threat level days, but after updating everyone on the days terrorism threat color, the nightly news anchors would share how many terrorists were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Even as a kid, I thought to myself, “how is everyone killed by coalition forces a terrorist?”
Or, “why are car bombs that kill coalition forces in theatre, called terror attacks?”
News flash, governments and media label all sorts of organizations and actions terrorism, 90% of it is propaganda, or bullshit.
Otherwise, I guess that would mean Ukrainian forces fighting Russians are also terrorists, which is how the Russian government and media refers to them.
NOT_RICK@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 16:49
nextcollapse
From what I can tell online its militant wing predates the political wing. Just adding that in because I thought it might be the other way around based on your comment
Do you think Hezbollah gave her a pager? What was her father’s position within Hezbollah? Maybe he’s the one that fired some rockets that killed someone else’s kids recently
I’ll engage with your shitty whataboutism after you answer which it is: were the bombs “surgical” and killed a 9-year-old girl on purpose, or were they sloppy attacks which caused civilian casualties on accident?
Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today. The use of an explosive device whose exact location could not be reliably known would be unlawfully indiscriminate, using a means of attack that could not be directed at a specific military target and as a result would strike military targets and civilians without distinction. Human Rights Watch
Although they did kill that girl (and others) on accident, the attack as a whole seems to have been far more surgical that what we usually see in this conflict (and dare I say, certainly more surgical than most attacks from Hezbollah)
Either it was “very surgical” and still killed a small girl (ie the girl was targeted) OR Israeli attack methods are so indiscriminate and poorly aimed they end up killing INNOCENT CHILDREN.
Imagine if Hezbollah managed to send a missile right up Bibi’s bedroom window and killed both him and, unbeknownst to them, some child that was with him. Would you then conclude that it was an ‘indiscriminate’ attack? Would you not make a difference between that and say a carpet bombing where they just try to level the city block he’s in?
Please use more caps and bold formatting in your posts
Bibi’s bedroom window and killed both him and, unbeknownst to them, some child that was with him.
Bibi is fucking kids at night? I thought he couldn’t get more disgusting for fucks sake.
Someone’s personal bedroom has a bit more of what is known as “a reasonable expectation of privacy” than… *literal marketplaces. To pretend you don’t understand the difference is pathetic.
And no-amount of your garbage propaganda will change the fact that you’ve tried asserting mutually exclusive things to be the case. Like propaganda usually does, claiming literally impossible things.
You CAN NOT answer the question. Was it extremely targeted and Israel killed a child on purpose, or did Israel attack so indiscriminately that it killed several innocents and harmed thousands of innocents.
It can’t be both. And I know Netanyahu is a scumbag politician, but I’m sure even his personal bedroom wouldn’t fit 3000 people.
So which is it? Extremely targeted (meaning these civilians are dead on purpose) or wildly uncaring (an indiscriminate bombing)?
Some things are really that binary, when they’re MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
Even in the real world, you can’t have you cake AND eat it too. Do you not understand what that means?
You can’t claim “it was extremely targeted, but all the civilian casualties were an accident, even though the accidental things happened on purpose.”
It’s like saying “up is down”. Some things are mutually exclusive.
I keep underlining these things so even a cowardly whataboutist would understand.
You have to choose one, there is no middle-ground as these are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE (you may need to Google the term): was the strike “extremely surgical”? If it was, then the 3000 injured plus ~10 dead, including children, are dead on purpose.
OR
Israel indiscriminately bombs civilians.
There’s no middle option here, no matter how much you’d like for there to be. Either Israel targeted civilians or didn’t care they’d end up killing them.
Just to be clear on definitions here: could you give me an example of something that you personally believe can be respresented on a scale (as opposed to binary)?
Sexuality is on a spectrum, because the opposing ends aren’t mutually exclusive. You can do both. What you can’t do is have a cake AND eat it. Because if you eat the cake, you won’t have it. See?
Have you ever driven a car? You come to a crossing where you can go left or right.
If you go left, you didn’t turn right, and if you turn right, you’re turning away from left.
The choices are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. You seem to be really struggling to understand what that means.
Just a reminder, it’s YOUR assertion that these were “extremely targeted, no accident”.
So you yourself have said that Israel bombed and killed civilians on purpose. That’s a crime against humanity. Terrorism.
Fuck terrorist scum like whoever did this cowardly pager attack. Disgusting pos.
I kinda love how you’re using the example of sexuality and a traffic crossing together. It’s no different than someone ‘explaining’ how there are only two genders, really.
With violent acts like what we’re talking about here, both intent and outcome are on a spectrum. There’s a luck factor involved between the two. These clues should be enough for you to understand it’s not as binary as you’ve been led to believe
I kinda don’t love how you’re unable to imagine that your b-grade logic would make Israel any less of a terrorist state.
Trying to assert the problem of induction into anything when faced with shitty things your people have done is honestly just shitty rhetoric. Like trying to play hide and seek with a 2-year old who thinks if they close their eyes no-one can see them.
You fail to stand behind your OWN WORDS.
YOU wrote:
the attacks are extremely targeted, thus not random at all
And
People in the vicinity are not harmed
This wasn’t Israeli outlets saying these things. It was YOU. I’m having an issue with YOUR statements, which you’re desperately trying to run away from.
So the attacks are extremely targeted, and don’t harm “people in the vicinity”. Those are your statements. Then how come a 9-year old girl among others is dead? (And 3000 people injured?)
Oh right, you’re just another troll backing the bullshit of another person who started this thread, I see, I didn’t pay attention to the username. Apologies, terribly.
So just read the comment again and input him where I say “you”.
Like I said, you don’t have any logic here. Some things are mutually exclusive.
Dasus@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 16:40
nextcollapse
Explicitly combatants… and anyone who happens to be in their vicinity when the bomb goes off.
“Extremely” targeted you say? So when they were detonated, the people doing the detonating had visual confirmation of the targets not being in close proximity to civilians?
nogooduser@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 17:09
nextcollapse
the people doing the detonating had visual confirmation of the targets not being in close proximity to civilians
Or even had the pager at all instead of leaving it at home where their kids could get hold of it or a fire could be started.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 07:44
collapse
The bombs are small. People in the vicinity are not harmed. You can see videos of them exploding in supermarkets and on streets. The only one injured is the owner of the pager.
You say that “people in the vicinity are not harmed.” Either the 9-year-old-girl was targeted, or she wasn’t. If she was harmed, it was according to you, a targeted strike at her, or she would not have been harmed.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Either she was harmed on accident by a bomb which did end up harming innocents, or she was targeted on purpose. THOSE ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE STATEMENTS.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 10:40
collapse
You’re on a soccer field and try to kick the ball into the goal, miss and hit a spectator. The goal was targeted, the spectator wasn’t.
The target was a Hezbollah member, the weapon was a pager bomb, the child is an innocent bystander hit by accident.
These attempts at defending indiscriminate attacks on civilian population are fucking disgusting. I genuinely don’t know how you sleep at night when you’re defending the death of a 9-year-old girl.
More like “you want to kill a soccer player who did something very bad to you. You get a soccer ball and plant it full of explosives. You leave it on a football pitch. Not even necessarily the one the player you’re trying to kill uses. Just a pitch. Any pitch. Then you hope that the first person to touch the ball and explode is the person you intended. You end up killing several innocents and injuring hundreds.”
Despite all your shitty propaganda, THE STATEMENTS ARE STILL MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They can’t be “extremely surgical attacks” which accidentally kill innocent children.
That’s like saying you’re a vegan who eats meat. Doesn’t fucking work.
So was Israel’s attack “extremely targeted” and they 'chose* to kill a 9-year-old-girl OR were these terror attacks so uncontrolled and chaotic that a child died on accident?
It’s EITHER OR.
TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 19:37
nextcollapse
Customary international humanitarian law prohibits the use of booby traps – objects that civilians are likely to be attracted to or are associated with normal civilian daily use – precisely to avoid putting civilians at grave risk and produce the devastating scenes that continue to unfold across Lebanon today. The use of an explosive device whose exact location could not be reliably known would be unlawfully indiscriminate, using a means of attack that could not be directed at a specific military target and as a result would strike military targets and civilians without distinction. Human Rights Watch
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 07:53
collapse
Hezbollah are not civilians, but combatants. So this is legal under international law.
TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 13:51
collapse
Feelings don’t care about the facts.
corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca
on 19 Sep 2024 00:17
collapse
The stuff is blowing up inside stores and buildings around innocent people. How is that targeted? Israel doesn’t give 2 shits about innocent people being injured and possibly killed.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 18 Sep 2024 18:07
nextcollapse
How is this not super targeted? Hitting 3000 terrorists and and only a handful of civilians as collateral is exceptionally good. For you it’s probably bad anytime Israel kills one of their enemies.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 18 Sep 2024 18:17
nextcollapse
So like killing a “handful” of Israeli civilians would be “exceptionally good” if the target was a bunch of IDF reservists?
nonailsleft@lemm.ee
on 18 Sep 2024 18:34
nextcollapse
It’s never good, but when Hezbollah chose to restart the violence they knew it was never going to be without collateral
BakerBagel@midwest.social
on 18 Sep 2024 19:09
nextcollapse
Israel has been massing forces on the Lebanon border and saying they will invade for months now. At what point is the Lebanese government allowed to defend itself?
nonailsleft@lemm.ee
on 19 Sep 2024 07:48
nextcollapse
Which of my statements is contradicted by this?
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 07:57
collapse
Occupying parts of Lebanon? The Sheba farms are a tiny sliver of land. Syria even has a better claim to it than Lebanon.
TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 19:18
collapse
Ahistorical
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 08:21
collapse
Hezbollah could just chill and not attack Israel and this wouldn’t happen.
TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 13:55
collapse
Argue the opposite and surf the wave of dialectic to the truth.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 15:28
collapse
Something we can agree on.
xor@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 19 Sep 2024 08:58
collapse
I mean, yeah. The tragic answer is that civilian casualties are inevitable in war, unfortunately.
According to a UN meeting from 2022, 90% of war casualties globally are civilians. That’s not to say that’s an acceptable ratio, in fact it’s horrifying, but it does show that a ratio of “a handful” to “a bunch” is quite a lot better than the average.
Traditionally, a targeted attack minimizes collateral damage to almost zero. Do you have stats on who was killed/injured? I do know 2 children were killed. I’m sure they were hard-core Hezbollah.
Doing this kind of attack indicates Israel didn’t care AT ALL who they took out. Ah, much like their reactions in Gaza.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 07:41
collapse
3000 pagers exploded. All had small amounts of explosive like 20 g. You can watch videos of them exploding in traffic, supermarkets, etc. people next to them remain unharmed. So you have 3000 explosions all over the place including crowded areas. Two dead children is a quota of 1500:1. That is exceptionally good.
Are you both siding this shit? Let me be clear, Hezbollah, Hamas AND Israel each have done awful things to innocent civilians in the name of revenge. How hard is it to say enough is enough and want innocent civilian populations ON ALL SIDES to not die? Children born into these situations, and many adults have zero opportunities to get away from the violence. They should not die due to factions and government decisions.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 16:59
collapse
I agree that this war should end. It doesn’t simply end, if Israel stops military operations though.
filister@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 05:04
collapse
ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/…/rule80 you know International laws exist for a reason, and Israel clearly violated many international laws, which by the way were created to prevent such events like WWII.
You know Israel can find a peaceful solution if it only permits the establishment of an independent state of Palestine. But instead they prefer to continue their warmongering politics.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 08:14
collapse
Why was there no independent state of Palestine established in 1949-1967?
filister@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 10:07
nextcollapse
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 10:24
collapse
Nakba was in 1948. 1949-1967 Israel did not occupy the West Bank and Gaza. Why didn’t Palestinians establish a state then and there?
filister@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 13:00
collapse
Why Jews didn’t forgive Nazis in 1946?!?
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 15:29
collapse
Jews founded a state of their own in 1948. Forgiveness of others is independent of building a safe home for your people.
filister@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 16:28
collapse
On a land that didn’t belong to them. And in the process killed 15000 Palestinians and expelled 750.000 to create their dream ethno state. Prior to 1900 very few Jews were living there and the local population was mostly Arabs.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 16:42
collapse
The League of Nations created a mandate for the foundation of a state for the Jews in the Levante. So there’s a basis in international law for it.
Most of the land on which Israel was founded in 1948 was state owned land and land owned by Jews they had purchased.
No Palestinian would have lost their land, if the partition plan would have been accepted. Instead they chose war and lost it.
Prior to 1900 the land was only sparsely populated in the first place.
More than 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab and Muslim countries in the region and had to flee to Israel. It was a population exchange like India and Pakistan around the same time.
filister@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 18:51
collapse
The Jewish Agency, the recognized representative of the Jewish community, accepted the plan, which assigned 55–56% of Mandatory Palestine to the Jews. At the time, the Jews were about a third of the population and owned around 6–7% of the land.
And then you wonder why Arabs weren’t happy. Would you be happy if someone comes to Germany and tells you from now on, 55% of Germany belongs to Turkiye?
But arguing with you and trying to show you the other point of view is like fighting with windmills.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 18:55
collapse
A huge part of the land for the Jewish part was the Negev desert. And as I said most of the land in general was state owned. Lots of Jewish immigration was expected, which would quickly change the population disparity as well.
You can read the old documents about how they arrived at the plan on the UN’s website.
filister@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 20:52
collapse
So you are trying to tell me that if you were on the other side of the fence you would be happy if some colonial Western countries gave your land on a silver platter to an ethnic group, consisting of new emigrants who were not even living there before 1900.
I have all the compassion for the Jews and what they experienced in WWII. But this doesn’t also give them a carte blanche to expel people from their own homes and declare Israel as an ethno state.
The reality is that Israel has killed and destroyed a lot more civilians and their infrastructure compared to any of their proclaimed terrorist neighbours. And then it is just logical to ask who is actually worse, the so-called terrorist organisation, or the state of Israel of their indiscriminate killings. And believe me, through the years Israel committed well documented plenty of human rights violations, war crimes, etc.
You know if you disregard international law so blatantly, you are creating a dangerous precedent and other countries would do the same. The whole idea of those international laws is to prevent large scale conflicts and to minimise the civilian casualties. But nowadays no one bats an eye if Israel breaks another one.
And this double standard, is infuriating. Because if you are a war criminal, you should be put into jail, no matter your country of origin, skin colour, religion, etc.
And the same applies to Hamas and Putin, of course.
Instead we have Israel trying to sabotage the international criminal court, tapping phones, blackmailing prosecutors and on top of everything else the US is considering sanctioning the prosecutors just because they dared to issue an arrest warrant for Bibi and Gallant. That’s how rotten our world is.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 20 Sep 2024 07:25
collapse
The reality is that Israel has killed and destroyed a lot more civilians and their infrastructure compared to any of their proclaimed terrorist neighbours
Take a look at Syria or Yemen, if you get the chance. Israel is the strongest military in the region and has good civil defense infrastructure as well with bomb shelters in every house. Hezbollah and Hamas could just not attack Israel and they would be left alone.
filister@lemmy.world
on 20 Sep 2024 16:43
collapse
The way Gaza and the West bank are left alone, behind big walls, with plenty of checkpoints, restricting the free movement of people and stock with severe economic sanctions and so on. Oh what a paradise on Earth.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 19 Sep 2024 10:22
collapse
You think that’s some kind of gotcha. It isn’t.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 10:30
collapse
Would you care to elaborate?
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 19 Sep 2024 10:52
collapse
The unsaid implication of your loaded question is that the absence of a Palestinian state is “the fault of the Palestinians”. The further implication is that “Israel has no partner for peace” even now. Basically, the implication being we need to keep doing whatever the Israeli right wants in perpetuity.
If by some miracle you’re not just parroting right wing pro-Israeli talking points, please elaborate what the hell you mean with your question instead.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 15:51
collapse
This is primarily a call to learn about the history of the conflict.
Palestinian political strategy and tactics have been moderately successful at best, IMHO. It’s worth knowing about them and their history. Black September and the role of Palestinian groups in the Lebanese civil war are also worth learning about to better understand the current situation.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 19 Sep 2024 17:26
nextcollapse
Nice word salad. If you want people to learn more, say that (ideally also pointing to specific resources) instead of derailing discussions with open ended loaded questions.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 18:26
collapse
Salad is good for you. I won’t provide sources as you will dismiss anything I link anyway. You have enough terms to start googling.
theacharnian@lemmy.ca
on 19 Sep 2024 18:45
collapse
Fascinating lack of good faith. Paired with your penchant for open ended leading questions, I’m ready to make the call: you’re trolling.
Edit: just to clarify by “word salad” I meant calling the Palestinians, i.e., a stateless, disposessed, oppressed, subject to apartheid, and genocided people… “moderately successful”. While at the same time making the assumption your interlocutor does not know the history. I mean, to be as polite a Greek as I can: go to the port and come back to tell me if the boats are bobbing.
Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 21:11
collapse
SkyezOpen@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 18:19
collapse
It’s still a million times better than dropping a thousand pound bomb on a refugee camp to take out 1 hamas guy, and that’s at least commendable.
It’s worse that they’re blowing up people in a country they’re not openly at war with, stirring shit and risking even more retaliation.
Keeponstalin@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 21:01
nextcollapse
Bombing Refugee camps is not commendable
BearGun@ttrpg.network
on 20 Sep 2024 18:24
collapse
Being better than war crime is not commendable if you’re still at terrorism. Just because they’ve done horrible shit before doesn’t mean slightly less horrendous shit should be remarked upon and punished.
NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
on 18 Sep 2024 19:15
nextcollapse
The pagers were very questionable. Even assuming ONLY hezbollah had the explosive pagers, they were still detonating in public since the point of a pager is to be able to carry it around.
Walkie talkie wise? I still need to reflexively condemn anything that kills children. But… that actually does seem super targeted and would presumably not be something a terrorist “should” carry around in public during their non-terrorist lives.
oberstoffensichtlich@feddit.org
on 19 Sep 2024 07:55
collapse
TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 19:16
nextcollapse
Mission :: Fail
Broken_Orange_Juice@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 10:15
collapse
We’ve seen targeted attacks before in Lebanon, and they can hit an individual target with a drone without any interference. A targeted attack kills and harms its target, and only it’s target. No one else.
The shit the Mossad comes up with and pulls off would be impressive if it weren’t to serve an appartheit State.
It also helps they can ignore the fallout from blowing up stuff with total disregard for international law or basic morals
Altofaltception@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 18:51
collapse
The BBC reported it was a Taiwanese brand to let a Hungarian company manufacture them on their behalf. The pagers were brought to Lebanon 5 months ago. The Hungarian company has been around since about 2022.
For this to be a supply chain attack, the level of sophistication indicates Israeli intelligence was at this for years, from setting up a shell company, infiltrating manufacturing companies, etc. We don’t know whether the Taiwanese company was compromised as well.
Now this last part is a bit of a conspiracy theory, but it makes you wonder what the real reason the US banned Huawei. Could they have been approached as a potential manufacturer and they said no? The timeline certainly works.
You must have limited retrospective abilities, because sure as hell, the ideas from your childhood guided your life.
Landslide7648@discuss.tchncs.de
on 20 Sep 2024 22:13
collapse
My point is that children lack the understanding of what caused this. It’s the reaction of the adults / role models in their life that will radicalise them.
I think you misunderstand how people grow up and introspect. There is a lot in childhood that will give an initial push and motivation, and it is not a desire to live up to their parents or other adults, and their desires. As people grow up they desire individuality, and their own life.
Role models can be a part, but these are usually exceptional people in some way. But at this point, wrt the topic, you should consider why these role models exist, and what they stand for. Not immediately jump to the conclusion of smth smth propaganda. If you want that discussion you should very specifically define the term of propaganda.
Landslide7648@discuss.tchncs.de
on 21 Sep 2024 16:16
collapse
I’ve worked quite extensively with youth, including in radicalisation prevention. Children model their lives after adults. The term role model is simply different for children and for older people.
You are mixing up a lot of terms here without actually defining for what age group you want to apply them. So yeah, I can say with a lot of confidence that the death of young children is horrible, but it’s not the driving factor behind radicalisation. The reaction of the people around is.
I dont apply to a specific age group. From my personal understanding, as people grow up (and of course it depends heavily on education, culture), people will have strong memories from childhood and will reflect on them throughout life.
Hardships would likely cause people to not want their children to have hardships. Loss would likely cause vengeful directions to be righteous.
It’s only if the losses or hardships (over their life) are resolved do they go away, otherwise, it is fuel for fire. Whether radicalized or not. In this case, I would like to know what you perceive as radicalized here. I would only attribute terroristic desires or genocidal intentions, or other inhumane (as defined by international law) goals as radicalization.
It is not radical at all to want vengeance, or to punish for pain inflicted. It’s natural and even lawful if done within confines of agreed law, and many times required, otherwise anyone can do anything without objection or accountability.
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 19 Sep 2024 11:43
collapse
Ironically if they do capture and interrogate one ‘terrorist’ who was a childhood friend of theirs, all they will talk about is mosques and ancient Islamic antisemitism.
distantsounds@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 16:56
nextcollapse
Terrorists being terrorized until more terrorists can terrorize the terrorizers.
ours@lemmy.world
on 18 Sep 2024 17:15
nextcollapse
Bibi and co need the endless cycle of hate and violence to go on so he can rob his own with impunity.
NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip
on 18 Sep 2024 19:24
collapse
It is the biggest “problem” of modern warfare. We don’t fight wars of conquest anymore because that tends to actually make other countries care (because those brown people have resources!). So we attack and then leave.
It is similar to why France and England (or China/Japan/Korea) were basically at continuous levels of war for hundreds (?) of years. Because when you roll up and kill a bunch of people and maybe steal a goat? The remaining people want revenge. When you conquer them and either ethnically cleanse them to nonexistence or integrate them into your society? They forget why they were angry after a generation or two.
I very much do NOT believe the world would be a better place with more ethnic cleansing and stealing of land. But we also are in a mess where retaliation between countries just continues with no real consequences to the people who are calling for the attacks. And the civilians just get rightfully angry when their kid is permanently blinded because she was looking the wrong way at the Lebanese equivalent of a Kroger.
And then you get the keyboard warriors who hop in decades (or even centuries) into the conflict, pick a side, and immediately say THESE terrorists are good guys and THOSE terrorists are bad guys.
LouNeko@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 08:27
nextcollapse
You know whats even scarier? Out of the thousands of devices produced I bet none of them have gone through proper quality control and testing (because it requires documentation, which kind of goes against the whole “covert” thing), which means the failure rates are probably through the roof. This means that there are most likely dozens of unexploded devices still around filled with plastique. This means 2 things, 1st you essentially gave away military grade explosives to uncontrolled civilians which can be harnessed and reused for other malicious purposes, and 2nd if a media illiterate civilian doesn’t know to chuck their device in a tar pit, they will continue to walk around with an unexploded bomb strapped to their leg for a long time.
All in all, whoever came up with this Idea, should be gunned down in the streets like a dog. Or at least be prosecuted for every confirmed civilian death.
riodoro1@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 10:22
nextcollapse
All in all, whoever came up with this Idea, should be gunned down in the streets like a dog. Or at least be prosecuted for every confirmed civilian death.
Biden would personally strap a medal around their neck. As would Trump… and Harris
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 19 Sep 2024 11:42
collapse
Unfortunately.
PiousAgnostic@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 10:28
nextcollapse
Honestly, it’s a pretty brilliant idea. It did what it was intended to do.
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 19 Sep 2024 11:41
collapse
Murder civilians?
PiousAgnostic@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 12:17
nextcollapse
Militia not backed by a state are classified as unlawful combatants.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 20 Sep 2024 17:18
nextcollapse
Hezbollah are a political party with a non-insignificant number of elected seats in Lebanon’s parliament.
This is like targeting every UK Labor MP, and successfully assassinating several of them. Wonder if people would be talking about how cool it was then…
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 20 Sep 2024 18:55
nextcollapse
Lots of British fascists would love to murder labor MPs, unfortunately.
PiousAgnostic@lemmy.world
on 20 Sep 2024 20:09
collapse
Hezbollah paramilitary targeted by ISF black ops spooks is the same in your mind as a UK Labor MP being assassinated?🙄
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 20 Sep 2024 18:54
collapse
Kill, injure and seriously disrupt the communication of Hezbollah, no matter the consequences or civilian casualties. At least this time there was a tiny bit of military assassination type logic to it, and they weren’t just blatantly shooting civilians and bombing hospitals as they usually do, but they just had to trigger it during rush hour because of course they did.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 20 Sep 2024 17:15
collapse
Hezbollah is a legitimately elected party in Lebanon’s parliament. If this had been done by an Arab nation to a Western nation, it would be the end of the fucking world. October 7 all over again. Horrific terrorism.
But seriously, Imagine all of the members of the UK labor party being injured or killed by a coordinated attack like this. Do you think people would be talking about how cool it was then?
When Israel does it? “Self defense”
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 20 Sep 2024 18:54
nextcollapse
Oct 7th and Sept 11th all over again.
And hezbollah is a fuckload more restrained in how they target Israel with rockets than how Israel bombs Lebanon.
Hezbollah is a legitimately elected party in Lebanon’s parliament
“… and paramilitary group,[44][45] led since 1992 by its Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah. Hezbollah’s paramilitary wing is the Jihad Council,[46] and its political wing is the Loyalty to the Resistance Bloc party in the Lebanese Parliament. Its armed strength was assessed to be equivalent to that of a medium-sized army in 2016.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
What’s the armed strength of the UK labour party, just curious?
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 19 Sep 2024 11:41
nextcollapse
The Israelis are the world’s largest terrorists and the world’s largest cause of terrorism. I have had many ‘debates’ with zionists before getting permabanned off reddit who actually tried to frame Israel as a stabilizing force in the region where all the whining infantile Arabs can blame all their problems on (which they don’t and never did BTW) instead of tearing each other apart for land and on religious grounds (also bullshit).
I simply pointed out how absurd their beliefs are and how utterly baseless. As you would expect, they constantly shifted the goal posts in ways that revealed the sheer depth of ignorance that they had about anything.
AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world
on 19 Sep 2024 15:47
collapse
I’ll agree with that only because the US cops aren’t using their military hardware yet. Give them time and they will start giving Israel pointers.
Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee
on 20 Sep 2024 20:31
collapse
Israel has been the one giving pointers to the US police. They will never outdo the IDF.
threaded - newest
KABC - Los Angeles News - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)
Information for KABC - Los Angeles News:
> MBFC: Least Biased - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
> Wikipedia about this source
Search topics on Ground.News
https://abc7.com/post/explosions-witnessed-beirut-funeral-hezbollah-members-child-killed-pager-attack/15320074/
Media Bias Fact Check | bot support
Terrorism.
I bet this terrorist group will be using pigeons from now on.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pigeon
These are extremely targeted attacks, not aimed at the wider population. It is meant to more than scare Hezbollah members for sure.
So would you say it’s using violence to instill terror and achieve political goals?
Since this targets explicitly combatants, it’s not terrorism.
The attacks are extremely targeted, and thus not random at all. No terrorism.
Hezbollah is, also, a political party. It’s military wing was formed to fight the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.
It is classified as a terrorist organisation by the majority of the international community. By legal definition, all Hezbollah members are terrorists regardless of what they do in the organisation, in the same way that all SS members are war criminals even if they were an office janitor or something, which makes them legitimate targets in a broader way than ordinary combatants who are bound and covered by the laws of war.
That’s absolutely not how the nazis’ war crimes were handled post-war.
Only those with a direct active role and sufficient knowledge were charged in the post-war trials.
90+% of the SS members just went right back into their pre-war jobs.
(At least in the western part, the Soviets were much more…thorough in their de-nazification.)
Also, a janitor in a civilian building will never be an active combatant by any stretch of international law, no matter which organisation they belong to.
Do the confederates next, they were back in power in 10 years and terrorizing black people with the KKK shortly after.
In law, every SS member, without exception, was axiomatically classified as a war criminal, with membership being sufficient evidence in itself. Of course, the western allies were not above looking the other way if it potentially meant the difference between victory and defeat in the Cold War, but this was an informal policy imposed from high up.
I don’t know if you grew up during the color coded terror threat level days, but after updating everyone on the days terrorism threat color, the nightly news anchors would share how many terrorists were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Even as a kid, I thought to myself, “how is everyone killed by coalition forces a terrorist?”
Or, “why are car bombs that kill coalition forces in theatre, called terror attacks?”
News flash, governments and media label all sorts of organizations and actions terrorism, 90% of it is propaganda, or bullshit.
Otherwise, I guess that would mean Ukrainian forces fighting Russians are also terrorists, which is how the Russian government and media refers to them.
From what I can tell online its militant wing predates the political wing. Just adding that in because I thought it might be the other way around based on your comment
The people getting these communication devices aren’t exactly the kitchen personnel
True. Who would want a 9-year-old-girl as kitchen personnel?
Do you think Hezbollah gave her a pager? What was her father’s position within Hezbollah? Maybe he’s the one that fired some rockets that killed someone else’s kids recently
I’ll engage with your shitty whataboutism after you answer which it is: were the bombs “surgical” and killed a 9-year-old girl on purpose, or were they sloppy attacks which caused civilian casualties on accident?
Although they did kill that girl (and others) on accident, the attack as a whole seems to have been far more surgical that what we usually see in this conflict (and dare I say, certainly more surgical than most attacks from Hezbollah)
You can’t have it both ways.
Either it was “very surgical” and still killed a small girl (ie the girl was targeted) OR Israeli attack methods are so indiscriminate and poorly aimed they end up killing INNOCENT CHILDREN.
It’s one or the other.
That’s a very childish way to look at it.
Imagine if Hezbollah managed to send a missile right up Bibi’s bedroom window and killed both him and, unbeknownst to them, some child that was with him. Would you then conclude that it was an ‘indiscriminate’ attack? Would you not make a difference between that and say a carpet bombing where they just try to level the city block he’s in?
Please use more caps and bold formatting in your posts
Bibi is fucking kids at night? I thought he couldn’t get more disgusting for fucks sake.
Someone’s personal bedroom has a bit more of what is known as “a reasonable expectation of privacy” than… *literal marketplaces. To pretend you don’t understand the difference is pathetic.
And no-amount of your garbage propaganda will change the fact that you’ve tried asserting mutually exclusive things to be the case. Like propaganda usually does, claiming literally impossible things.
You CAN NOT answer the question. Was it extremely targeted and Israel killed a child on purpose, or did Israel attack so indiscriminately that it killed several innocents and harmed thousands of innocents.
It can’t be both. And I know Netanyahu is a scumbag politician, but I’m sure even his personal bedroom wouldn’t fit 3000 people.
So which is it? Extremely targeted (meaning these civilians are dead on purpose) or wildly uncaring (an indiscriminate bombing)?
The answer you seek is in my example: in the real world it’s not binary, it’s always a scale
btw I don’t understand why you’ve used so little formatting
Some things are really that binary, when they’re MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
Even in the real world, you can’t have you cake AND eat it too. Do you not understand what that means?
You can’t claim “it was extremely targeted, but all the civilian casualties were an accident, even though the accidental things happened on purpose.”
It’s like saying “up is down”. Some things are mutually exclusive.
I keep underlining these things so even a cowardly whataboutist would understand.
You have to choose one, there is no middle-ground as these are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE (you may need to Google the term): was the strike “extremely surgical”? If it was, then the 3000 injured plus ~10 dead, including children, are dead on purpose.
OR
Israel indiscriminately bombs civilians.
There’s no middle option here, no matter how much you’d like for there to be. Either Israel targeted civilians or didn’t care they’d end up killing them.
Just to be clear on definitions here: could you give me an example of something that you personally believe can be respresented on a scale (as opposed to binary)?
Sexuality is on a spectrum, because the opposing ends aren’t mutually exclusive. You can do both. What you can’t do is have a cake AND eat it. Because if you eat the cake, you won’t have it. See?
Have you ever driven a car? You come to a crossing where you can go left or right.
If you go left, you didn’t turn right, and if you turn right, you’re turning away from left.
The choices are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. You seem to be really struggling to understand what that means.
Just a reminder, it’s YOUR assertion that these were “extremely targeted, no accident”.
So you yourself have said that Israel bombed and killed civilians on purpose. That’s a crime against humanity. Terrorism.
Fuck terrorist scum like whoever did this cowardly pager attack. Disgusting pos.
I kinda love how you’re using the example of sexuality and a traffic crossing together. It’s no different than someone ‘explaining’ how there are only two genders, really.
With violent acts like what we’re talking about here, both intent and outcome are on a spectrum. There’s a luck factor involved between the two. These clues should be enough for you to understand it’s not as binary as you’ve been led to believe
I kinda don’t love how you’re unable to imagine that your b-grade logic would make Israel any less of a terrorist state.
Trying to assert the problem of induction into anything when faced with shitty things your people have done is honestly just shitty rhetoric. Like trying to play hide and seek with a 2-year old who thinks if they close their eyes no-one can see them.
You fail to stand behind your OWN WORDS.
YOU wrote:
And
This wasn’t Israeli outlets saying these things. It was YOU. I’m having an issue with YOUR statements, which you’re desperately trying to run away from.
So the attacks are extremely targeted, and don’t harm “people in the vicinity”. Those are your statements. Then how come a 9-year old girl among others is dead? (And 3000 people injured?)
I’m sorry, but can you point me to where I said either of those two things?
I’m starting to think you’re just making things up
Oh right, you’re just another troll backing the bullshit of another person who started this thread, I see, I didn’t pay attention to the username. Apologies, terribly.
So just read the comment again and input him where I say “you”.
Like I said, you don’t have any logic here. Some things are mutually exclusive.
Explicitly combatants… and anyone who happens to be in their vicinity when the bomb goes off.
“Extremely” targeted you say? So when they were detonated, the people doing the detonating had visual confirmation of the targets not being in close proximity to civilians?
Or even had the pager at all instead of leaving it at home where their kids could get hold of it or a fire could be started.
The bombs are small. People in the vicinity are not harmed. You can see videos of them exploding in supermarkets and on streets. The only one injured is the owner of the pager.
Compare to the 11 Druze children in Israel Hezbollah killed recently.
Ah. So this 9-year-old-girl was killed on purpose then, I take it?
Since “People in the vicinity are not harmed” it had to have been targeted. Right? Right??
Killed on accident
So which is it? “People in the vicinity are not harmed” or “whops we killed a kid”?
Can’t fucking be both, can it?
Sure it can. Only people directly in contact with the pager were harmed. If a child holds it, then it is harmed.
The explosion only had a small area of lethal effect is what I’m saying. There are lots of videos of people close by the explosion being unaffected.
No, it can’t be both.
You say that “people in the vicinity are not harmed.” Either the 9-year-old-girl was targeted, or she wasn’t. If she was harmed, it was according to you, a targeted strike at her, or she would not have been harmed.
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Either she was harmed on accident by a bomb which did end up harming innocents, or she was targeted on purpose. THOSE ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE STATEMENTS.
You’re on a soccer field and try to kick the ball into the goal, miss and hit a spectator. The goal was targeted, the spectator wasn’t.
The target was a Hezbollah member, the weapon was a pager bomb, the child is an innocent bystander hit by accident.
These attempts at defending indiscriminate attacks on civilian population are fucking disgusting. I genuinely don’t know how you sleep at night when you’re defending the death of a 9-year-old girl.
More like “you want to kill a soccer player who did something very bad to you. You get a soccer ball and plant it full of explosives. You leave it on a football pitch. Not even necessarily the one the player you’re trying to kill uses. Just a pitch. Any pitch. Then you hope that the first person to touch the ball and explode is the person you intended. You end up killing several innocents and injuring hundreds.”
Despite all your shitty propaganda, THE STATEMENTS ARE STILL MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. They can’t be “extremely surgical attacks” which accidentally kill innocent children.
That’s like saying you’re a vegan who eats meat. Doesn’t fucking work.
So was Israel’s attack “extremely targeted” and they 'chose* to kill a 9-year-old-girl OR were these terror attacks so uncontrolled and chaotic that a child died on accident?
It’s EITHER OR.
Hezbollah are not civilians, but combatants. So this is legal under international law.
Feelings don’t care about the facts.
Whoosh
The stuff is blowing up inside stores and buildings around innocent people. How is that targeted? Israel doesn’t give 2 shits about innocent people being injured and possibly killed.
How is this not super targeted? Hitting 3000 terrorists and and only a handful of civilians as collateral is exceptionally good. For you it’s probably bad anytime Israel kills one of their enemies.
So like killing a “handful” of Israeli civilians would be “exceptionally good” if the target was a bunch of IDF reservists?
It’s never good, but when Hezbollah chose to restart the violence they knew it was never going to be without collateral
Israel has been massing forces on the Lebanon border and saying they will invade for months now. At what point is the Lebanese government allowed to defend itself?
Israel and Hezbollah have always had forces on the border staring at eachother.
After Hezbollah broke that status quo, Israel has been threatening to invade if they didn’t stop.
Can you explain why you’re blaming Israel for responding more than Hesbollah for starting it?
en.m.wikipedia.org/…/Israeli–Lebanese_conflict this article clearly contradicts your statement. And it doesn’t help that Israel is also illegally occupying part of Lebanon either.
Which of my statements is contradicted by this?
Occupying parts of Lebanon? The Sheba farms are a tiny sliver of land. Syria even has a better claim to it than Lebanon.
Ahistorical
Hezbollah could just chill and not attack Israel and this wouldn’t happen.
Argue the opposite and surf the wave of dialectic to the truth.
Something we can agree on.
I mean, yeah. The tragic answer is that civilian casualties are inevitable in war, unfortunately.
According to a UN meeting from 2022, 90% of war casualties globally are civilians. That’s not to say that’s an acceptable ratio, in fact it’s horrifying, but it does show that a ratio of “a handful” to “a bunch” is quite a lot better than the average.
press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm
Traditionally, a targeted attack minimizes collateral damage to almost zero. Do you have stats on who was killed/injured? I do know 2 children were killed. I’m sure they were hard-core Hezbollah.
Doing this kind of attack indicates Israel didn’t care AT ALL who they took out. Ah, much like their reactions in Gaza.
3000 pagers exploded. All had small amounts of explosive like 20 g. You can watch videos of them exploding in traffic, supermarkets, etc. people next to them remain unharmed. So you have 3000 explosions all over the place including crowded areas. Two dead children is a quota of 1500:1. That is exceptionally good.
Compare that to the Hezbollah rocket than killed 11 Druze children in Israel.
Wow only 2 dead children. Amazing, let’s celebrate!
Members of Hezbollah endanger their families willingly.
I’m glad we can punish the children of criminals for their parents’ crimes.
Children suffer from all kinds of stupid decisions their parents made.
Ah, so we’re allowed to do anything bad to someone if their parents do it first?
Parents, who are also combatants in terrorist militias, have a duty to not endanger their children by handing them tactical communications equipment.
Are you both siding this shit? Let me be clear, Hezbollah, Hamas AND Israel each have done awful things to innocent civilians in the name of revenge. How hard is it to say enough is enough and want innocent civilian populations ON ALL SIDES to not die? Children born into these situations, and many adults have zero opportunities to get away from the violence. They should not die due to factions and government decisions.
I agree that this war should end. It doesn’t simply end, if Israel stops military operations though.
ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/…/rule80 you know International laws exist for a reason, and Israel clearly violated many international laws, which by the way were created to prevent such events like WWII.
You know Israel can find a peaceful solution if it only permits the establishment of an independent state of Palestine. But instead they prefer to continue their warmongering politics.
Why was there no independent state of Palestine established in 1949-1967?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Nakba was in 1948. 1949-1967 Israel did not occupy the West Bank and Gaza. Why didn’t Palestinians establish a state then and there?
Why Jews didn’t forgive Nazis in 1946?!?
Jews founded a state of their own in 1948. Forgiveness of others is independent of building a safe home for your people.
On a land that didn’t belong to them. And in the process killed 15000 Palestinians and expelled 750.000 to create their dream ethno state. Prior to 1900 very few Jews were living there and the local population was mostly Arabs.
The League of Nations created a mandate for the foundation of a state for the Jews in the Levante. So there’s a basis in international law for it.
Most of the land on which Israel was founded in 1948 was state owned land and land owned by Jews they had purchased.
No Palestinian would have lost their land, if the partition plan would have been accepted. Instead they chose war and lost it.
Prior to 1900 the land was only sparsely populated in the first place.
More than 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab and Muslim countries in the region and had to flee to Israel. It was a population exchange like India and Pakistan around the same time.
And then you wonder why Arabs weren’t happy. Would you be happy if someone comes to Germany and tells you from now on, 55% of Germany belongs to Turkiye?
But arguing with you and trying to show you the other point of view is like fighting with windmills.
A huge part of the land for the Jewish part was the Negev desert. And as I said most of the land in general was state owned. Lots of Jewish immigration was expected, which would quickly change the population disparity as well.
You can read the old documents about how they arrived at the plan on the UN’s website.
So you are trying to tell me that if you were on the other side of the fence you would be happy if some colonial Western countries gave your land on a silver platter to an ethnic group, consisting of new emigrants who were not even living there before 1900.
I have all the compassion for the Jews and what they experienced in WWII. But this doesn’t also give them a carte blanche to expel people from their own homes and declare Israel as an ethno state.
The reality is that Israel has killed and destroyed a lot more civilians and their infrastructure compared to any of their proclaimed terrorist neighbours. And then it is just logical to ask who is actually worse, the so-called terrorist organisation, or the state of Israel of their indiscriminate killings. And believe me, through the years Israel committed well documented plenty of human rights violations, war crimes, etc.
You know if you disregard international law so blatantly, you are creating a dangerous precedent and other countries would do the same. The whole idea of those international laws is to prevent large scale conflicts and to minimise the civilian casualties. But nowadays no one bats an eye if Israel breaks another one.
And this double standard, is infuriating. Because if you are a war criminal, you should be put into jail, no matter your country of origin, skin colour, religion, etc.
And the same applies to Hamas and Putin, of course.
Instead we have Israel trying to sabotage the international criminal court, tapping phones, blackmailing prosecutors and on top of everything else the US is considering sanctioning the prosecutors just because they dared to issue an arrest warrant for Bibi and Gallant. That’s how rotten our world is.
Take a look at Syria or Yemen, if you get the chance. Israel is the strongest military in the region and has good civil defense infrastructure as well with bomb shelters in every house. Hezbollah and Hamas could just not attack Israel and they would be left alone.
The way Gaza and the West bank are left alone, behind big walls, with plenty of checkpoints, restricting the free movement of people and stock with severe economic sanctions and so on. Oh what a paradise on Earth.
You think that’s some kind of gotcha. It isn’t.
Would you care to elaborate?
The unsaid implication of your loaded question is that the absence of a Palestinian state is “the fault of the Palestinians”. The further implication is that “Israel has no partner for peace” even now. Basically, the implication being we need to keep doing whatever the Israeli right wants in perpetuity.
If by some miracle you’re not just parroting right wing pro-Israeli talking points, please elaborate what the hell you mean with your question instead.
This is primarily a call to learn about the history of the conflict.
Palestinian political strategy and tactics have been moderately successful at best, IMHO. It’s worth knowing about them and their history. Black September and the role of Palestinian groups in the Lebanese civil war are also worth learning about to better understand the current situation.
Nice word salad. If you want people to learn more, say that (ideally also pointing to specific resources) instead of derailing discussions with open ended loaded questions.
Salad is good for you. I won’t provide sources as you will dismiss anything I link anyway. You have enough terms to start googling.
Fascinating lack of good faith. Paired with your penchant for open ended leading questions, I’m ready to make the call: you’re trolling.
Edit: just to clarify by “word salad” I meant calling the Palestinians, i.e., a stateless, disposessed, oppressed, subject to apartheid, and genocided people… “moderately successful”. While at the same time making the assumption your interlocutor does not know the history. I mean, to be as polite a Greek as I can: go to the port and come back to tell me if the boats are bobbing.
I already debunked this to you in another thread
lemmy.world/comment/12431134
It’s still a million times better than dropping a thousand pound bomb on a refugee camp to take out 1 hamas guy, and that’s at least commendable.
It’s worse that they’re blowing up people in a country they’re not openly at war with, stirring shit and risking even more retaliation.
Bombing Refugee camps is not commendable
Being better than war crime is not commendable if you’re still at terrorism. Just because they’ve done horrible shit before doesn’t mean slightly less horrendous shit should be remarked upon and punished.
The pagers were very questionable. Even assuming ONLY hezbollah had the explosive pagers, they were still detonating in public since the point of a pager is to be able to carry it around.
Walkie talkie wise? I still need to reflexively condemn anything that kills children. But… that actually does seem super targeted and would presumably not be something a terrorist “should” carry around in public during their non-terrorist lives.
What do think about Hezbollah killing 11 Druze kids?
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Mission :: Fail
We’ve seen targeted attacks before in Lebanon, and they can hit an individual target with a drone without any interference. A targeted attack kills and harms its target, and only it’s target. No one else.
As this story has developed it has become increasingly clear that this was a supply chain attack where explosives were inserted into the electronics
Wait what
Reuters is reporting it
The shit the Mossad comes up with and pulls off would be impressive if it weren’t to serve an appartheit State.
It also helps they can ignore the fallout from blowing up stuff with total disregard for international law or basic morals
The BBC reported it was a Taiwanese brand to let a Hungarian company manufacture them on their behalf. The pagers were brought to Lebanon 5 months ago. The Hungarian company has been around since about 2022.
For this to be a supply chain attack, the level of sophistication indicates Israeli intelligence was at this for years, from setting up a shell company, infiltrating manufacturing companies, etc. We don’t know whether the Taiwanese company was compromised as well.
Now this last part is a bit of a conspiracy theory, but it makes you wonder what the real reason the US banned Huawei. Could they have been approached as a potential manufacturer and they said no? The timeline certainly works.
Edit: BBC link
Great way to radicalize the next generation.
Children won’t be radicalised by that. Their parents would be. And people the age of their parents.
Reminder that teenagers are children.
You must have limited retrospective abilities, because sure as hell, the ideas from your childhood guided your life.
My point is that children lack the understanding of what caused this. It’s the reaction of the adults / role models in their life that will radicalise them.
I think you misunderstand how people grow up and introspect. There is a lot in childhood that will give an initial push and motivation, and it is not a desire to live up to their parents or other adults, and their desires. As people grow up they desire individuality, and their own life.
Role models can be a part, but these are usually exceptional people in some way. But at this point, wrt the topic, you should consider why these role models exist, and what they stand for. Not immediately jump to the conclusion of smth smth propaganda. If you want that discussion you should very specifically define the term of propaganda.
I’ve worked quite extensively with youth, including in radicalisation prevention. Children model their lives after adults. The term role model is simply different for children and for older people.
You are mixing up a lot of terms here without actually defining for what age group you want to apply them. So yeah, I can say with a lot of confidence that the death of young children is horrible, but it’s not the driving factor behind radicalisation. The reaction of the people around is.
I dont apply to a specific age group. From my personal understanding, as people grow up (and of course it depends heavily on education, culture), people will have strong memories from childhood and will reflect on them throughout life.
Hardships would likely cause people to not want their children to have hardships. Loss would likely cause vengeful directions to be righteous.
It’s only if the losses or hardships (over their life) are resolved do they go away, otherwise, it is fuel for fire. Whether radicalized or not. In this case, I would like to know what you perceive as radicalized here. I would only attribute terroristic desires or genocidal intentions, or other inhumane (as defined by international law) goals as radicalization.
It is not radical at all to want vengeance, or to punish for pain inflicted. It’s natural and even lawful if done within confines of agreed law, and many times required, otherwise anyone can do anything without objection or accountability.
Ironically if they do capture and interrogate one ‘terrorist’ who was a childhood friend of theirs, all they will talk about is mosques and ancient Islamic antisemitism.
Terrorists being terrorized until more terrorists can terrorize the terrorizers.
Bibi and co need the endless cycle of hate and violence to go on so he can rob his own with impunity.
It is the biggest “problem” of modern warfare. We don’t fight wars of conquest anymore because that tends to actually make other countries care (because those brown people have resources!). So we attack and then leave.
It is similar to why France and England (or China/Japan/Korea) were basically at continuous levels of war for hundreds (?) of years. Because when you roll up and kill a bunch of people and maybe steal a goat? The remaining people want revenge. When you conquer them and either ethnically cleanse them to nonexistence or integrate them into your society? They forget why they were angry after a generation or two.
I very much do NOT believe the world would be a better place with more ethnic cleansing and stealing of land. But we also are in a mess where retaliation between countries just continues with no real consequences to the people who are calling for the attacks. And the civilians just get rightfully angry when their kid is permanently blinded because she was looking the wrong way at the Lebanese equivalent of a Kroger.
And then you get the keyboard warriors who hop in decades (or even centuries) into the conflict, pick a side, and immediately say THESE terrorists are good guys and THOSE terrorists are bad guys.
You know whats even scarier? Out of the thousands of devices produced I bet none of them have gone through proper quality control and testing (because it requires documentation, which kind of goes against the whole “covert” thing), which means the failure rates are probably through the roof. This means that there are most likely dozens of unexploded devices still around filled with plastique. This means 2 things, 1st you essentially gave away military grade explosives to uncontrolled civilians which can be harnessed and reused for other malicious purposes, and 2nd if a media illiterate civilian doesn’t know to chuck their device in a tar pit, they will continue to walk around with an unexploded bomb strapped to their leg for a long time.
All in all, whoever came up with this Idea, should be gunned down in the streets like a dog. Or at least be prosecuted for every confirmed civilian death.
Biden would personally strap a medal around their neck. As would Trump… and Harris
Unfortunately.
Honestly, it’s a pretty brilliant idea. It did what it was intended to do.
Murder civilians?
Militia not backed by a state are classified as unlawful combatants.
Hezbollah are a political party with a non-insignificant number of elected seats in Lebanon’s parliament.
This is like targeting every UK Labor MP, and successfully assassinating several of them. Wonder if people would be talking about how cool it was then…
Lots of British fascists would love to murder labor MPs, unfortunately.
Hezbollah paramilitary targeted by ISF black ops spooks is the same in your mind as a UK Labor MP being assassinated?🙄
Oh so they aren’t backed by Iran now?
Kill, injure and seriously disrupt the communication of Hezbollah, no matter the consequences or civilian casualties. At least this time there was a tiny bit of military assassination type logic to it, and they weren’t just blatantly shooting civilians and bombing hospitals as they usually do, but they just had to trigger it during rush hour because of course they did.
Hezbollah is a legitimately elected party in Lebanon’s parliament. If this had been done by an Arab nation to a Western nation, it would be the end of the fucking world. October 7 all over again. Horrific terrorism.
But seriously, Imagine all of the members of the UK labor party being injured or killed by a coordinated attack like this. Do you think people would be talking about how cool it was then?
When Israel does it? “Self defense”
Oct 7th and Sept 11th all over again.
And hezbollah is a fuckload more restrained in how they target Israel with rockets than how Israel bombs Lebanon.
“… and paramilitary group,[44][45] led since 1992 by its Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah. Hezbollah’s paramilitary wing is the Jihad Council,[46] and its political wing is the Loyalty to the Resistance Bloc party in the Lebanese Parliament. Its armed strength was assessed to be equivalent to that of a medium-sized army in 2016.” en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah
What’s the armed strength of the UK labour party, just curious?
The Israelis are the world’s largest terrorists and the world’s largest cause of terrorism. I have had many ‘debates’ with zionists before getting permabanned off reddit who actually tried to frame Israel as a stabilizing force in the region where all the whining infantile Arabs can blame all their problems on (which they don’t and never did BTW) instead of tearing each other apart for land and on religious grounds (also bullshit).
I simply pointed out how absurd their beliefs are and how utterly baseless. As you would expect, they constantly shifted the goal posts in ways that revealed the sheer depth of ignorance that they had about anything.
I’ll agree with that only because the US cops aren’t using their military hardware yet. Give them time and they will start giving Israel pointers.
Israel has been the one giving pointers to the US police. They will never outdo the IDF.
Don’t you think Hezbollah is going to do a little ‘recall’ on these products?
which war crime is this
yes.