When the crowd chants 'ceasefire now', this is why some governments remain 'deaf'
(www.abc.net.au)
from throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to world@lemmy.world on 15 Nov 2023 06:20
https://lemmy.nz/post/3385635
from throws_lemy@lemmy.nz to world@lemmy.world on 15 Nov 2023 06:20
https://lemmy.nz/post/3385635
#world
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This is the best summary I could come up with:
“It’s always very hard to make a crystal-clear causal connection between a demonstration and the effect it has on politics,” says Jacquelien van Stekelenburg, a professor of social change and conflict at Amsterdam’s Vrije Universiteit.
In the wake of Hamas’ October 7 attacks, in which Israeli authorities initially said 1,400 people were killed — a figure later revised down to 1,200 — and another 240 were abducted, Anthony Albanese used the “defend itself” line.
By early November, Foreign Minister Penny Wong was warning at a press conference that the “international community will not accept ongoing civilian deaths”.
Canberra’s ambassador to the UN, James Larsen, said the fact “the resolution did not recognise terror group Hamas as the perpetrator of the October 7 attack” meant his country couldn’t vote.
Jewish leaders have highlighted rising anti-Semitism since the war began in October, including at some demonstrations Australia, and Israel has warned its citizens to reconsider any travel abroad.
In the days before the march, White House national security spokesperson John Kirby said Israel had agreed to daily four-hour humanitarian pauses in fighting.
The original article contains 1,058 words, the summary contains 180 words. Saved 83%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
This article essentially says “These protests are unlikely to change government agendas because governments currently don’t support a ceasefire.” it doesn’t explain why this is the case.
That point is neither enlightening nor interesting.
This article does a horrible job of explaining it.
Russia-adjacent countries have a strong incentive to support Israel if they want to purchase missile defense systems. Finland signed a deal earlier this week. Many countries around the world use Israeli-made/designed military systems, and they don’t want to jeopardize their continued access to those systems.
The other factor is non-public intelligence - tack this sentence before every IDF tweet: “We have shared intelligence with our allies and are making a tiny bit public:”
Or they support Israel against terrorism because that's the moral thing to do
There is no moral war, stop spouting nonsense.
So countries like Vietnam did not have a moral ground to fight against their french, american or chinese invaders?
I’d be careful with blanket statements.
No, there is no moral war.
Wars are fought for things not ideals.
Should Hitler have been allowed to complete his final solution?
Should Ukraine just give up 20% of their nation?
Not moral, and also not actually about any of those causes but actually about economic capture.
Again not a moral war, Russia wanted land and former ussr bases not to eradicate Nazis.
I agree that’s what Russia wanted, but I don’t find it immoral for Ukraine to defend itself from a war of aggression
It’s not immoral to defend yourself, that isn’t however why the war started.
Fair enough
Wow bro are you glorifying Hamas right now?
Are you fucking dumb?
Well you said the defender has the right to defend themselves against occupation. While what Hamas did Oct 7 was completely within the international laws, it was still a bit rude.
Correct.
No shit.
What’s your point.
no but there are strategically needed war. Lets take France.
During 7th October attack France saw 30 of her citizens murdered, tortured and raped directly by the HAMAS and there are still french hostage in Gaza. I want to note this is an act of war France could perfectly respond to with the full might of its armament. This happen in spite of the tens if millions of euros they send each year to Gaza in humanitarian aid and their political condemnation of Israeli colonization. France suffered a terrorist attack motivated by an international Jihad partly supported by HAMAS around the same date. On the wider spectrum, France as a large Christian population who regularly send loads of pilgrims in Israel and Palestine, therefore the HAMAS is indeed a very real threat to french security.
So yeah France is not going to blame Israel for destroying the HAMAS However France has spearheaded vast humanitarian effort for Palestinians since the beginning of the slaughters, from taking part in the EU airlift to sending an hospital ship to Gaza, the French Republic has been resolute in preserving civilian life while letting HAMAS die in their hole
It’s 100% French tourists went to a country that is actively in conflict with it’s neighbors while occupying and carrying out offensives in occupied territory. Death is a risk France specifically warns people about and Israel hasn’t been on the French safe travel list since 2021 because it isn’t… Safe.
That is not casus belli but way to warhawk!
Gaza had not received aid in over 48 hours, no power, no water, dead left to rot. France has no left to stand on homie, that’s not how any of this works.
Those are mostly Christian pilgrims. Second war still doesn’t allow you to target civilians.
“French safe travel list”
The french Ministry of Foreign Affairs does not work with a safe travel list but with a safety scale. It has been around the middle or even lower middle of that scale for the past two decades and was never green. You don’t know what you are talking about.
“That is not casus belli but way to warhawk”
Except France didn’t went two war, so your argument is fucking dumb. Lastly if someone steal your bike and you decide to break into the robber’s house with a gun to gat it back and the robber hurt you this still count as self defense even if the robber is an asshole ^^. According to you France should let that slide but Palestine should not let similar things slide ? Why.
“Gaza had not received aid in over 48 hours”
False. The border with Egypt was closed. But the EU airlift wasn’t. And a shitton of aid had managed to pass right before Israel forbid the entrance of aid inside Gaza (problem is that we had report of HAMAS stealing aid which didn’t help)
“it isn’t… Safe”
And ? All cities have “unsafe area” where a lot of crimes happen does that justify the rape happen there ? Is your excuse for thirty murders with acts of torture and barabarism that “they just do that in Palestine” ? If that is, I think Palestinian find it very cool you like them but clearly the best thing you can do for them is to stop saying stuff.
Lastly,
France has been involved a lot in Palestinian history. By sending so much aid to Palestinian it becames one of the main sources of PA budget to the spearheading of an EU condemnation of Israeli colonization. And most importantly it is thanks to the French Army and Navy that Palestine even exist. Oh yes, the Palestinian State was proclaimed by Yasser Arafat in 1988. In 1982 as the IDF was closing in on Beirut it was the French Army who interposed itself between the advancing IDF and the survivors of PLO command. And it was the Marine Nationale and the U.S Navy who escorted them to safety. Without this intervention 1982 would have been the end of Palestinian Resistance as an organised political movement. So that is how, you a Palestine “supporter” talk about one of the few countries that actually stepped in for Palestine.
P.S : “offensives in occupied territory” that… is by definition not possible an offensive is a military action conceived to conquer a previously unoccupied territory
TL;DR : Why are you trying to convince everyone Palestine only behave medievally everytime there’s an armed conflict and murder everyone they see be it allies or enemies ?
Who gives a shit why they’re there. And I have specifically and repeatedly condemned civilian deaths and Israels ethnic cleansing.
Remind me again, is France part of the eu? Yeah? Ok because the eu removed Israel and the US in 2021 because of both crime and the pandemic those things being not totally separable. You don’t know what you’re talking about.
That’s my point, they didn’t go to war because they couldn’t, france has to let it slide, civilian deaths in Israel are on Israel not a terrorist organization that has not held elections in the lifespan of over half it’s population.
Multiple outlets report no aid for 48 hours, argue with them homie.
It clearly isn’t safe given the deaths, right? It’s not at all “they just do that” you fucking bigot, how you even got that is beyond me, like legit are you high?
Sure, they’ve sent aid historically, that doesn’t actually change anything. I’m aware of the history, hitting up wiki isn’t going to make your argument less dumb. I’m not a “Palestinian supporter”, if you think saying Israel is going to goddamn far after killing ten times as many most of which are civilians then you’re a goddamn moron.
noun
/əˈfensiv/
an attacking military campaign.
Just stop, you’re getting both tedious and idiotic.
Literally no one said that, but why are you trying to convince everyone “Palestine only behave medievally everytime there’s an armed conflict and murder everyone they see be it allies or enemies ?”
Similarly the war isn’t against Palestine it’s against hamas but nuance clearly escapes you.
Yes I also remember the famed entry of Israel andthe US in the European Union
Yes during the first 48 hours there was no aid the first
The ancient history of 2016. Oh and this aid has only been growing since. US and EU aid make for a majority of the PA’s budget (that is without project funding)
no you are really not. You clearly know jackshit about the History of French and US military relations with the PLO and intervention against the IDF and how Arafat was even alive to proclaim the state of Palestine in 88.
read what I wrote, my point is : people who described ethnic cleansing by the HAMAS as an act of palestinian resistance which should be answered only by negociation are actually portraying Palestinian as bloodthirsty genociders and doing them a great disservice to say the least. (btw i’m not sure if your point is that i claimed that what’s between in quotation mark is true or if your sentence is so poorly constructed it is barely understandable, same goes for the EU argument)
Yes Netanyahu said that I agree. Sadly for you Gazans for “some” reasons don’t really feel that way
Are you drunk? Did you bother to read the text of the conversation before you popped back in only to say crazy shit?
You completely flipped sides, hilarious. Thank you for agreeing though.
I don’t care about your opinion. I am not even arguing opinion. I’m pointing out that you are either turbo-wrong on the facts or can’t make a bloody sentence. I can’t agree with you because you are so bad at making your point its like you have none.
Again what does THAT
seriously everything in that sentence is not only wrong, but that barely qualify as sentences.
Again, are yu trying to say Israel was part of the EU ?
What is also THAT ? Why is the quote so poorly made, why is there a “but”. The construction of the sentence seems completely reverse, how am i suppose to understand what you are saying.
It’s a fact dude.
Again those are facts.
No. Jesus. Ok, the eu has a safe travel list like every other nation which is legit just a list of places you shouldn’t fucking go because here’s the kicker… They aren’t safe.
I don’t know, I didn’t write it I popped it back at you specifically because it was word salad.
It is amusing that you don’t know what a safe travel list is but are screaming about how I’m ignorant.
first the EU and french travel list are different and work differently. France for exemple have safety degrees and not a safe/unsafe binary option lastly
so you were talking about travel list. You manage to forgot to include the main subject of your argument in your sentence. If you forget to mention your own point how am I suppose to understand your gibberish.
That’s what I’ve been saying all this insane exchange : you fail at making basic sentence which make your point barely understandable.
P.S : for the french Foreign affairs, even during active war, Israel is safer than Iran
Sure, but France is part of the eu so the eu lost applies as well and there’s travel advisories for Israel on both. So yeah you have a point but it’s dumb.
I didn’t, we were already talking about travel lists, keep up.
Hilariously ironic and inept, fun combo.
Sure, that’s a point but again a very fucking dumb one.
please right correct sentences*
Try again.
at least mine are understandable despite english being my third language madison
Only took 5 days to come up with huh?
no its just that I have a life pal. I don’t spend more than an hour per day here and I try to make it nice.
Uh huh, sure.
Pal. It took you only 30 minutes to answer me. Me I’m finishing the bullshit hour on here. See you on St Nicholas
Replying takes 30 seconds and I get notifications. You’re apparently just lazy or imprompt, it’s not a bad thing to be the opposite of either of those two things.
A ceasefire does nothing to stop Hamas from existing, it literally helps those piece of shit terrorists to regroup and settle in with more human shields.
But it does help palistinian babies to exist.
okay, how do you propose destroying hamas and saving the kids? :3
btw~ you’re being attacked from three different countries, you’ve got limited time here
Not by making the same mistakes the US did in afganistan and iraq.
Bombs dont kill terrorists, it creates them
dats not answering the question X3
how do they get rid of hamas quickly and efficiently? remember the being attacked from three different countries part!
it’s not a concentration camp! that implies gaza is being forced to work X3
the word you’re looking for is Prison! :3 whiiiich is kinda strange because then apparently Egypt is in on it too 3:
Prisons have running water, hospitals, food, and the people in them are mostly criminals, with a few guards and staff. Prisoners still have human rights. None of that is true for Gaza.
The people living in Gaza are children, with a few terrorists, and foreign aid workers.
Concentration camps need not be work camps. They are defined by what motivated their creation (segregating a specific group of a population).
just a few terrorists? X3
Gaza is Hamas’ headquarters! they’re the governing body of Gaza and separated themselves from the PLO
also the reason why the infrastructure is so bad is because hamas used most of the water pipes to construct their missiles. oops.
You’re talking as if hamas appeared a month ago. Israel had many oportunities to get rid of hamas and chose not to do so.
Israel seems to know the precise location of every tunnel (at least the ones below refugee camps and hospitals), and yet failed to see 1000 terrorists training at its doorstep for more than a year.
If you’re thinking that the current situation is not desired by Netanyahu, you are severely mistaken.
And no, i dont need to bring peace to middle east to know that killing children is wrong.
thats not answering the question tho! it’s happening now, war in gaza, israel forces searching for hamas and hostages. what do? :o
Sure you win. Lets kill all the babies, i’m sure the parents wont become terrorists in the future.
eheh, nooo~ X3
we have to not kill the babies!
But you said its the only way! Lets kill all the palistinian children! Lets go!
noo, i never said all that! that was baro who said no to a ceasefire!
you wanna hear my solution? :o
Sure, please tell me your solution for world peace. Please include an acceptable ratio of dead terrorists to dead children, or else i wont know how to think.
(I just want you to know that even though i disagree with you i respect you as a human being, and if i’m being too sarcastic i’m sorry)
pls don’t make fun of me for my idea, you can make fun of it, but not me! I’m just an idol okay? i sing and dance, i am not a general!!! (；′⌒`)
Amnesty International, the IDF, the US, the EU and the UN all condemn Hamas for using this particular hospital as a base. There has already been footage of Hamas militants using the Hospital. Back in the 80s, Israel expanded the hospital’s amenities while also constructing an underground complex for the safety of medical staff. It’s unclear how long Hamas has been using it to shelter their forces, the earliest report was in 2008. Here’s proof, proof, proof, proof, proof, proof, proof, proof, proof, proof, proof, proof,
but my hatsune miku solution doesn’t really matter whether or not Hamas are indeed there. (even though the IDF bee-lined it to the hospital and all of the above)
First, the Shifa hospital HAS to be entirely surrounded by Israeli forces.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4298ad6c-f645-4d36-85aa-c21483c8a0a4.png">
That blue is what IDF has claimed. They are currently in the process of fully surrounding the area. that means a lot of airstrikes, a lot of demolition, a lot of fighting until the hospital is entirely surrounded. Then after that, ceasefire, no more shooting unless it’s for self-defence. Shooting the surrounding area of the hospital is prohibited, not allowed.
Israel has complete domination over the ocean and the beaches. I’d set up a temporary fort on the beach or, if using the Gaza Port, setting up barges. The fort will contain heavy armour, soldiers, protective barriers and surveillance equipment like cameras.
Then, create a large pile of humanitarian aid—medicine, food, textiles, water, anything that civilians exclusively need. Fuel can only be transferred and escorted by the IDF and watched to see it be used in the hospital’s generators. If those IDF who handle and watch the fuel get killed, then we know Hamas is in the hospital and is stealing it.
There will be marked safety spots through a designated route leading to the supply cache and fort. Aerial drones and hidden cameras will monitor this designed route at all times. Depending on the logistics, you can even supply soldiers with mounted cameras to verify if they shoot at any civilians or shoot first (some IDF soldiers already have these, but they’re not released yet). There’s also cameras in the distance juuust in case there’s missile strikes, we don’t want a repeat of that first hospital scare where we didn’t know who shot the missile!
Civilians and personnel must travel the route, either in an IDF transport or on foot, gathering what supplies they can (except fuel; only the IDF may transfer that).
The idea is that with such constant surveillance, anyone should be able to verify who shoots first. Hamas or Israel. Israel has set up ceasefires before, but every single time Hamas has never honoured them for very long. Check the proofs for that!
Israel is running out of time with their operations. Remember, they are at war with three separate nations. Logistically and economically, they alone (even with their equipment) cannot last indefinitely. Watch that Northern border with Hezbollah forces! Building these kinds of fortifications and routes takes a lot of time, time which civilians don’t have. So in the mea
I dont really think thats a long term solution. Plus its very risky. Long queues are prime for atacks and large concentrations os angry, hungry people is just a bad idea.
You’ll need UN peace keepers around for some years. Palestinians dont really trust idf (understandable). And give back the control of gaza to the legitimate (well, the best we have now) palestinian authority. And start working on a two state solution with real pressure on both sides from the international comunity. Still, it will take decades (see the balkans)
ooh, nuhuh, it’s not a long term solution!
Just curious. Have you ever considered the radicalization of Israelis if nothing is done? 🤔
This is not them being radicalized? You mean, even more?
So, you think they are currently radicalized? Why do you think that is? Could it possibly be due to decades of people like yourself influencing their politicians who then further influence the stance of the international community to prevent Israel from putting down terrorist organizations and defending itself?
If you’re going to be concerned about the future radicalization of the Palestinians but put no thought or consideration into the present day “radicalization” of Israelis, then you need to shut up and stop commenting on this situation. In other words, your bias is clearly showing.
Lol i’m sorry, maybe you didnt understand me.
They are both radicalized. But only one of them is being bombed to the stone age. If you do not see this litlle detail… Maybe i’m not the only with a bias.
At least mine is against dead children, what is yours?
Dead children you say? There’s dead children on both sides. Only one side has dead children that are collateral damage. The other side has dead children who are purposefully targeted, molested, tortured, and executed by their opposition’s elected government. If that’s not clear enough for you, then I’ll just plainly say it. Hamas rapes, tortures, and murders children. Israel kills children in airstrikes, and I have seen no reliable evidence or confirmation from third-parties that those children are not the intended target. On the other hand, hundreds of international forensics experts have confirmed the atrocities committed by Hamas.
I’m against dead children on both sides. But I’m not in any position to actually do anything about it. The harsh reality is that we’re in this mess because people like you put pressure on politicians to act irrationally. For decades, Israel hasn’t been “allowed” to properly deal with terrorist organizations and the Palestinians have not been forced to take reasonable two-state solutions. So that’s lead to their radicalization over time.
If you truly care like you say you do, then you need to educate yourself. The death will only stop when all major terrorist organizations are slaughtered, Israeli radical groups like Likud are removed from power, and Palestinians forced to accept a two-state solution at any cost. Until the international community steps in to do this, then the death will continue and you will have only yourself to blame.
You cannot “slaughter” a major terrorist organization, you starve it. IRA was not slaughtered, it ceased to exist when a deal was made between the populations.
Hate only generates hate.
I’m not against UN forces in gaza, nor denying that there is a problem. But carpet bombing is never a solution.
Ps: i think you are confused, hamas is not the government of palestine, just gaza (and not really a democracy). And Mahmud abbas already has shown himself open to a two state solution ( press.un.org/en/2022/sc15042.doc.htm)
Taking the literal meaning of that, I can agree to a certain extent. But within the context of this conversation, I believe you really mean “Violence only generates hate.” History and I strongly disagree with you there.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/0cf738a3-1239-44b5-96ae-e95a877742d0.png">
Germany is one of the closest US allies and arguably the most important leader of the EU today. Part of how they got there was actually due to carpet bombing, interestingly enough.
I understand that Hamas is not the government of all of Palestine. But they were still elected. As for Mr. Abbas, you mean the guy who’s a Holocaust denier? The guy who allegedly helped fund the Munich Massacre? That’s the guy Israel should trust to implement a two-state solution?
Look dude, the reality is that “worst” case for Hamas, they only have near majority support in Gaza. A not insignificant part of the population wants to murder Israelis. How the fuck do you propose creating peace without massive amounts of violence? There are people who would happily murder a Jew if they had the means. And I don’t mean “means” in the sense that they could get away with it. Whether or not they get away with it in the “mortal” world isn’t of concern to them.
So yes, actually. A terrorist organization like Hamas needs to be slaughtered. They aren’t like the IRA fighting for independence. They are literally fighting for the genocide of the Jews according to their founding charter, founders, current leaders, and recruits. That’s an organization that must have its leadership wiped out to the man and closely monitored rehabilitation of members/conscripts at the very least.
The greatest flaw of the left is believing that in all cases peace can be achieved without violence. I want that to be the case, but the sad reality is that it’s not always possible. We all have free will. Some people choose to stubbornly cling to violence, and the only solution there is paradoxically more violence.
Oh, the nazi card… I did nazi that comming…
I would suggest to learn more about germany on the post war. It was not the war that ‘removed the nazism’ from them. It was a decade long process, with plenty of educational reforms.
If you want to read, i suggest: exorcising hitler
And in their eyes, yes, they are fighting for independence just like IRA was. They dehuminized the jews, as you are dehuminizing the palestinian people, and created a anti-semitic cult.
Regarding elections: most of the palestinian people were not alive, or voted, when the ‘elections’ happened (2007) as 75% of the population is less than 25.
But hey, at least you posted a foto of nazis… Thats something…
You’re totally right dude! We could have totally done all those reforms without any of the violence! We just had to ask Hitler, Himmler, et al to pretty please let us reform their country!
You’ve opened my eyes man. It wasn’t the German people who were racist bigots as a majority. It was just the Nazi party leadership. None of the SS or Wehrmacht soldiers were racist. None of the German scientists or engineers making lethal gases were racist. None of the German workers building weapons were racist. None of the German civilians and minor political officials who looked the other way and ignored the stench of dead bodies coming from concentration camps were racist. It was literally just Hitler and a few of his pals at Kristallnacht.
Fuck off you anti-Semite bigot. Hamas and the PLO have had programs to brainwash children into hating the Jews. There are motherfucking anti-Semitic sitcoms and children’s shows. This has been going on for decades.
It’s a government focused on brainwashing every generation to be anti-Semitic as best they can. Obviously not everyone falls for it, but many do. Asking politely and refusing to use violence will not solve this. It’s a fucking disturbing problem. An older generation of bigots using their power to try and turn future generations into bigots just like them.
I cannot blame someone who grew up in that system for how they are. But that doesn’t mean they should just be able to continue being a bigot.
Grow up. Do some actual fucking research for once in your life. You’re sick and disturbed if you think this is okay or can be solved peacefully.
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See, now you say that i’m anti-semitic… Just because i disagree on how many children are “acceptable colateral”.
Have a nice evening :) i hope (no sarcasm) you and your family are safe, because plenty of others arent.
But you’re not arguing in favor of destroying Hamas. You’re supporting genocide. Which, incidentally, will radicalize any survivors, leading to more joining Hamas.
Since you haven’t your own question, how about just shut the fuck up??
hatsune miku does not support genocide!
Actually yes, considering Hamas uses them as human shields.
Its ok to shoot the hostage now?
Sadly enough they are not chanting release the hostages.
It’s implied. A ceasefire gives a chance to negotiate for hostages and for peace.
People are not good with history. Take a gander at how Hamas reacted with literally every ceasefire in the past. What happens when there’s a ceasefire and Hamas strikes in the middle of it and more people die. What will people chant then? “We are sorry you got killed”?
do you have evidence? :o
Here’s a list. I know next comment is going to be “but but but IDF source”. You have the dates, google them. And that’s 2014 only. You can look up 2018. as well.
thank you!
You are welcome. I wish ceasefire would be used to humanitarian effort but it’s not.
how do you personally deal with those who just handwave evidence away?
I don’t. You can’t deal with people who take an effort not to allow change in their beliefs. They have decided what they want to believe in and then are just searching for reasons to support that.
Rather concerning they’re in support of terrorists.
Not terrorists according to UN.
no, the UN classifies Hamas as terrorists. They’ve told Hamas to stop using Hospitals
They actually don’t. They did say stop using hospitals, return prisoners etc. But never once did they condemn their actions or label them as terrorist organization. There were even politicians calling on UN to label them. And they refused.
You don’t gotta look far, actually. I know I’m probably simplifying it a little but the 7th of October is the latest time Hamas broke a ceasefire.
huh wonder why you’re downvoted. i mean that is what happened.
Good question! (Insert X variant online mob) someone prolly just didn’t like the answer. Some folks like rooting for the underdog so much they’ll do it even if its a literal terrorist organization.
It’s very much so not implied.
Is this the talking point now?
Whenever someone says stop bombing children, you immediately criticize them for not saying release the hostages?
“Oooooo, you see. We don’t listen to you.”
(backroom talks)
“How do we make it less obvious!?”