from IndustryStandard@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 20 Nov 09:04
https://lemmy.world/post/22236015
Nov 19 (Reuters) - President Joe Biden has approved provision of anti-personnel land mines to Ukraine, a U.S. official told Reuters, a step that could help slow Russian advances in its east, especially when used along with other munitions from the United States.
The United States expects Ukraine to use the mines in its own territory, though it has committed not to use them in areas populated with its own civilians, the official said. The Washington Post first reported the development.
The office of Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskiy, the Ukrainian defence ministry, the Russian defence ministry and the Kremlin did not immediately respond to Reuters’ requests to comment.
The United States has provided Ukraine with anti-tank mines throughout its war with Russia, but the addition of anti-personnel mines aims at blunting the advance of Russian ground troops, the official added, speaking on condition of anonymity.
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Oh, how sweet, Ukraine is finally allowed to use the same tools Russia is.
Fuck’s sake. All this pussyfooting from Cold War dinosaurs…
Cheering for land mines. A new low even for you.
This is what war does to people. We’re cheering for landmines and nukes, and anyone who points out how utterly insane that is, is branded as supporting the enemy.
The amount of people, particularly Americans I must say, who are hell bent on escalation, calling for nukes from the safety of 5000 miles away is disappointing.
“Escalation” is when you start using a weapon that your enemy has been using since the start of the war, huh?
Yes.
“Both sides use warcrime weapons” is an escalation from “only one side uses warcrime weapons”.
You know, some people might regard “one side using ‘warcrime weapons’” first as the escalation, not the other side deciding to follow suit.
So do i. Russia escalated by invading. Russia escalated by killing civilians, targeting civilian infrastructure, kidnaping children, attacking nuclear power plants, attacking dams, attacking hospitals, (and many more times). And by using mines.
That doesn’t change the fact that an escalation of the weapons used by ukraine is an escalation. That’s what that word means! Russia escalated first, and many times after. They are the bad guys.
Ukraine using mines is an escalation. Arguing against that point simply means you refuse to understand the word “escalation”.
So when Ukraine returned fire after being fired upon, that was an escalation?
Ah yes, remember how this war famously doesn’t have anti-personnel landmines being widely used?
Oh? What’s that? Russia is already widely using them in Ukrainian territory?
I am all in favour for handing Ukraine the tools they need to win this war. But at the same time “the others are doing it” is no justification for a free pass on every weapon or tactic.
The Russians butchered civilians, destroyed critical civilian infrastructure and yet I’d rather prefer the Ukrainians to not do the same.
Also anti personal mines and cluster munitions from i.e. the Vietnam war are still causing crippling and death today. Using weapons that are prone to cause damage to future generations for short term gains is in my opinion short sighted. We should provide Ukraine with more “sensible” weapons in quantities that makes using cluster munitions and mines obsolete.
No, but neither is fighting with both hands behind their backs. Anti-personnel mines remain effective, especially considering Russia’s preferred tactics. Ukraine already is being attacked with chemical weapons regularly, having PoWs tortured and executed, and their civilians murdered and their children quite literally kidnapped by the Russian state, and we’re gonna draw the line at ‘using landmines in non-civilian areas to stop Russian advances’?
Fuck that noise.
Those were also used in very different contexts. Modern cluster munitions do not have the same long-term potential for damage that Vietnam-era munitions did, and the same with landmines - especially since landmine recording protocols were updated in part because of the haphazard way they were used in Vietnam. And, for that matter, we dropped more ordnance on Vietnam than was dropped in the entirety of WW2 by the Axis AND Allies combined, all over the country. The same is not going to happen in Ukraine, neither in scale nor in type. They want to prevent the Russians from advancing along the frontlines, and are not going to use them in civilian areas.
How many thousands of Ukrainians dead, maimed, tortured, or ethnically cleansed today would you consider it an insufficient short-term gain to avert?
And what weapons are those? What weapons would make cluster munitions and mines obsolete in the context of the current war?
If the Russians don’t want to step on mines they can just fuck off back into their borders.
The children also don’t want to step on mines.
They need to be alive in order to be able to step on mines though.
And if Russia where to win they are also safe because they will be deported to a nice childless family in Siberia for reeducation.
Sub human scum.
The 1997 Ottawa Treaty banned the use of Land mine.
164 countries signed it.
The USA joined Russia, India and China in not signing it.
People who proliferate land mines will burn in hell fire.
I might reserve terms like that for, say, the perpetrators of the Bucha massacre, or for those committing ethnic cleansing on a massive scale by kidnapping children. But hey, if you prefer to apply that term to Ukranians trying not to get murdered by fascist invaders, it’s not like I can stop you.
or how about this, both of them are terrible for this. i strongly support Ukraine’s right to defend its borders, but landmines belong in the far distant pass. if Russia drops a bioweapon on kyiev will we follow suit? i sure fucking hope not.
grow a spine and actually believe in something for yourself. landmines are wrong, no matter who uses them or why they are used.
This may be shocking, but landmines and bioweapons are not even close to equivalent.
i didn’t say they were equivalent, i said they’re both blights that remain in the past. terrible things that cause mass civilian casualties for decades after the conflict.
one can still be worse than the other, but anyone that uses them should be punished.
Textbook whataboutism. Are you aware that two wrongs do NOT in fact make a right? And that crimes against humanity don’t cease to be criminal atrocities because someone did them to you first?
In other words: are you ignorant, a hypocrite, or an ignorant hypocrite when it comes to the victims of war crimes committing war crimes?
Landmines are a crime against humanity now? Jesus fucking Christ.
Yes they are. That’s why 164 countries have signed onto a treaty to ban their use.
For more information, see the International Campaign to Ban Landmines
Working to ban something means it’s a crime against humanity. Great. Alright.
No. Got the order wrong. People are working to ban them because they’re atrocious. They’re not atrocious because people are working to ban them. Don’t pretend to be even more obtuse than you already are.
They’re atrocious because they can make areas dangerous for anyone to traverse for years if not decades, blowing the limbs off of innocent civilians or making large swaths of land uninhabitable and unavailable to farm without risking death and dismemberment.
So like all UXO that’s indiscriminately used?
Yes. “Indiscriminately” being the operative word.
Russians butchering civilians doesn’t make it ok for Ukraine to emulate them.
See? I agree. Landmines should not be used indiscriminately. Luckily, Ukraine has already pledged to not use them in civilian areas, and landmine protocols are a far fucking cry from the Vietnam era, so we’re good.
Glad to see we’re all on the same page of not demanding that victims meekly submit to genocide in the name of some nebulous and ill-defined moral high ground.
How many thousands of Ukranian lives are worth not using landmines to you? Tens of thousands?
That’s like saying that guns shouldn’t be used violently 🙄
The nature of landmines is that of an indiscriminate and long lasting danger. Do you really think that, once the war is one and it’s time for civilians to move back to the areas that war has displaced them from, Ukraine is going to dig them all up again?
Because if you do, I have an explosion-proof bridge to Crimea to sell you.
Holy false dichotomy, Batman! Not meekly submitting ≠ doing the same things that you rightly deplore your enemy for doing.
This is some “Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were all great” type nonsense.
Oh they promised, did they? What a relief!
It’s not like politicians and diplomats who know that they’ll retain the support of the richest countries in the world no matter what would ever break a promise that they made in order to get something that they want!
Just like how Israel has always told the truth to American politicians!
Yes, that’s literally what fucking happens. Planned UXO operations are already going to take decades because of all the mines that Russia has laid, including in civilian areas, but I’m sure that you’re just really concerned about Ukraine’s post-war UXO situation becoming worse by (checks notes) Ukraine laying mines it itself has recorded in non-civilian areas.
Ah, the “Blockading Japan and having millions starve is the moral high ground” option.
Dresden was bad because it did not have commensurate military value to the civilian destruction it caused, and bomber command was well aware of that.
Oh, so we’re going on the assumption that Ukraine doesn’t care about their own post-war situation despite all of their actions thus far pointing towards the exact opposite?
Cool cool cool. Very paternalistic mindset, glad we’re still doing the “Noble Western Savior” thing in telling countries being genocided how exactly they’re allowed to defend themselves and accusing them of being savages if they disagree.
Ok, I see now that you have no interest in arguing in good faith, so I’m gonna leave you to it rather than wasting any more time on your absolutist credulity. Have the day you deserve.
Sorry that you don’t like being confronted with the fact that you don’t give a single fuck about Ukrainian lives and are just virtue signaling. But hey - have fun advocating for Ukranians to meekly submit to be massacred in order to take the moral high ground of (checks notes) not using explosives to stop the Russian advance. Really terrible stuff would have happened in this war if we allowed that, just absolutely exceptional suffering.
Also, nice one on running from the fact that you accused the Ukrainian government of being ready to just mine their own land and leave it that way post-war. Keep up the good work, I’m sure Putin and all the other fascist fucks are very proud of you.
Thats how crimes against humanity work. People find it so abhorrent they sign a treaty.
Not everything banned by treaty is a crime against humanity, though.
Two wrongs don’t make a right, but if you die it doesn’t matter if you were wrong or right.
Get China and Pakistan to sign it and India will sign it too.
With the Hindu-nationalist Modi government in charge? Fat chance!
Meaning there is a good chance this information is classified because it lets Russia know to expect anti-personnel mines, which helps their war effort.
Can we approve unstoppable killer robot dogs as well? Also, I am really eager for Japan to start unveiling their fully armed, and operational Gundams. (I am not making light. I want to see Russia get fucked up.)
So landmines fucking suck, Really they shouldn’t be used, maiming children and other random people for generations to come. Unfortunately they’re also pretty damn effective, and with the US almost certainly pulling support for Ukraine next year the moral high ground doesn’t mean much when you’re dead.
A little bit of perspective from Finland, as a neighbour of Russia. We have suffered from old landmines, so we are pretty familiar with the downsides. Finland joined the Ottawa Treaty in 2012. That has been largely seen as a mistake. If we would deploy mines in a new war, the locations would be documented well so that they could be disarmed with no harm to our civilians. And as a small country, we are not going to invade any other country and leave mines there after a war.
So there isn’t really any benefit to our civilians. But we lost one cost effective way to defend against an aggressive neighbour who has superior numbers of people to send as cannon fodder.