Israel sees growing exodus as at least 82,000 leave country in 2024
(www.middleeasteye.net)
from maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone to world@lemmy.world on 01 Jan 2025 23:55
https://aussie.zone/post/16565334
from maniacalmanicmania@aussie.zone to world@lemmy.world on 01 Jan 2025 23:55
https://aussie.zone/post/16565334
#world
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no more need to keep taking land then?
Nah, there is never enough for oligarchs
I don't think the oligarch framework makes sense as a way to view Israeli society. Your average Israeli wants to keep stealing Palestinian land as a matter of principle, not because they stand to gain anything from it.
Not everyone has the kind of freedom or means to do so even if they want to. While I get that a frightening majority of Israeli society is unbelievably cooked, a little more tact would be nice.
yeah, glass the sane poor people, that never ends poorly.
Zero-party state let’s gooo
So if people who support Israel’s war immigrate to Israel and people who don’t support it emigrate from Israel, we’d expect Israelis to get more violent while Jews outside of Israel to get less supportive of Israelis. This doesn’t bode well for Israel long term. This would decrease the number of people who advocate for Israel’s violence in the countries who provide weapons and political cover, all the while the violence gets worse.
Israel will be fine, as long as they keep spending a fraction of a percent of the US aid they receive to buy US media and politicians.
As long as people are voting for one of two genocidal parties that might be true. Although at some point it will be American soldiers doing the fighting and slaughtering, while the Israelis will watch and demand to get more money from the parents of the soldiers dying for them.
Good news, their votes will no longer count anyway!
What you think happened in Iraq, Syria, Libya and the talk about attacking Iran?
The US military has been serving Israel at least since the 60s.
Democrats by principal shouldn’t be supporting Israel’s genocide, but clearly they are. What makes you think third party politicians will be any different? Bernie is a Democrat and isn’t corrupt or pro-genocide. At best I’d say the jury is still out on Jill Stein’s loyalties. Third party politicians can be corrupted, and corrupt politicians can infiltrate third parties on false pretence. No, third parties aren’t the solution to this particular problem.
I was gonna say this 82k isn't much, but then I realized that that's almost 1% of Israel's population. If that's all people who have problems with Israel's current state, then yeah they'll probably go even further off the deep end in the coming years. That said, Israeli society is already so insane that it doesn't matter much at this point. Very few people in Israel actually want the genocide to stop, so their absence shouldn't change much in the short term. In the long term it decreases the odds of Israel changing of its own accord, but I don't think anyone was counting on that anyway.
I don't think Jews are a significant fraction of the people supporting Israel's genocide. I mean, they support it at below to above average rates depends on where you are and who you ask, but there aren't enough of them for their immigration to affect the big picture.
Basically what I want to say is that the "limit state", for lack of a better term, of zero anti-Zionist Jews in Israel and zero Zionist Jews abroad is very close to the current situation, so there's not much room for change in that direction. We can say that modern Israel is in that limit state. And that leads us to...
Exactly. Israel is kinda fucked when gen alpha and the generation after them grow up.
Yes that’s what Gideon Levy said. The people leaving Israel are the cosmopolitan, liberals and not the ideologically committed. They are the ones who would accept a one state solution with equal rights.
Still it’s good to see evidence that the Zionist colony is becoming toxic.
“becoming”?
I mean becoming toxic to Jews. Many in the West have a historic, sentimental fealty to the colony because of decades of Zionist propaganda and emotional brainwashing.
Good to see this toxic link being broken.
My support for Palestine includes being extra nice to Jews in my country to prove there is no need for an Israel.
Israel’s (over)reaction to the hostage crisis has been very harmful for the diaspora, and sometimes I think that’s by design. Basically ensuring that Israel is the only “safe” place for Jews by encouraging anti-Semitism abroad.
They have done for years. Besieged fortresses syndrome.
Israel is weaponizing anti-semitism, so naturally feeding semitism is incentivized.
Not even Israel is safe for Jews anymore.
Seriously. Bring them over to the US! We have plenty of room in states like Wyoming, which has enough space to fit 11 Israels but currently has only 1/16th of the population! And that’s just one state.
Israel: 22,145 sqkm, 9.3 million people
Wyoming: 253,600 sqkm, 580,000 people
No no. We need to better recreate the climate of Palestine if we’re going to ask millions of Israelis to relocate. You need a warm, coastal and arid Mediterranean climate. And we need an area that’s currently largely underpopulated.
Thus, we must…REUNIFY CALIFORNIA! For too long have Baja and Alta been disunited. It is time to annex Baja California, to reunify it with its Northern neighbor! Then we will offer large stretches of land in Baja California for Israeli Jews to settle in. That way they can have a homeland without oppressing the native Muslim population.
Bad idea.
Satire is dead.
Guilty milord.
If they come to the US, they are most likely to settle in the NY/NJ area or Florida because these locations already have large (relatively speaking) Jewish populations and institutions.
I mean yes, absolutely, it’s always good to welcome people leaving a bad government behind.
But…
Do we have any statistics on who is leaving? Are jewish people over- or underrepresented? Maybe it’s mostly palestinian citizens of Israel or maybe it’s a lot of hardcore conservative jews who support the war, but are fleeing conscription? Maybe it’s secular leftist jewish people? My point is: Apart from some cherry-picked, non-representative interviews, we don’t know who is leaving and why.
I don’t care, actually. Any Jewish person who is comfortable in Canada is not doing aliyah to Palestine. Good enough for me.
I do not blame any of them for leaving. I probably would too. But I think this will also have a negative effect since it will mean fewer people who are against the genocide working against it from within. I’m not sure anything can be done about that though. It’s too bad only those wealthy enough with the means to leave and a place to go who object to what’s going on can do so.
As long as they life and work there they pay taxes that fund settlements, bombs, the salaries of their murderous soldiers…
Israel is by constitution an ethnonationalist state. They being there and having the citizenship also still gives it legitimacy.
I understand that, but they also vote. They also can protest inside the country. They also can organize others to be with them. There is a trade-off here. Let’s not pretend there will not be any negative effects.
They have been doing these things for decades in Israel and things have only gotten worse. I think the more people that continue to leave and the more that can be discouraged from ever going there the better. One thing (among many) all these people can and should be encouraged to do is to renounce thier Israeli citizenship.
Discouraging people from going there I agree with, but I still say that if the people who are in a position to organize opposition leave, there will be a lot less opposition. I think that should be obvious and I’m not sure why you’re acting like that’s no big deal.
Again, I don’t blame anyone for leaving, I would do so myself. But I’m not going to act like that is going to be bad for Israel’s agenda in every way. It will help them in some ways. Like I said, there is a trade-off. The world is not black and white.
People will continue to organise opposition within Israel. I haven’t said or implied that anything isn’t a ‘big deal’ (perhaps you meant the other person who replied to you).
I’m not sure what you meant by this:
It was to both of you, because both of you seem to think this is 100% positive rather than a probable net positive. Which is a big difference.
And black-and-white thinking is not helpful.
Hold up, can we start over?
Just so you know I haven’t downvoted any of your comments.
I don’t think I have implied that anything isn’t a ‘big deal’ or that this is ‘100% positive’ or that I’m engaging in ‘black-and-white thinking’.
I did point out that Israeli settlers have been doing the things you suggest they do such as organising in opposition for decades without much success. This includes protests, campaigns, conscription and military refusal, opposition political parties and so on.
I do think if more people emigrate from Israel it will better and I linked to a piece by someone who renounced their citizenship that goes into detail about why this is the case. Perhaps if you disagree with this sentiment you could check this article out and let me know which parts you have issue with.
I don’t think I’ve taken anything you said out of context and I’d appreciate if you could pay me the same courtesy.
I wasn’t taking what you said out of context, I was interpreting it, and I also explained what I have issue with- the fact that this will make it harder to organize resistance from within.
And from the comments you have made twice now, again- this is my interpretation, you seem to be saying that there is no point in trying to resist from within. Which is a ridiculously defeatist attitude. I’m not sure why else you’re saying the resistance attempts have not had much success.
Resistance in East Germany didn’t have much success either. Until it did. See: every other authoritarian regime brought down from within.
I didn’t say this or infer it. I’m sorry but your interpretation is wrong. I agree with you, everyone who stays and wants to fight should do so. But I also don’t think this exodus will necessarily have a negative impact on any such struggle. It may even open up new spaces for new activists and organisers. We’ll see I guess.
Internal opposition to the genocide in Israel is scant. Too scant, unfortunately.
And making it even more scant won’t help. Which is all I am saying.
I don’t know why, but I am getting pushback here from multiple people who seem to be suggesting there’s no point in opposing this from within and I just can’t believe people can both oppose Israel and be that defeatist.
At this point I feel like opposition to Israel's activities might be more effectively directed at the foreign governments that are enabling it. Israel's going to oppress the Palestinians no matter what, but perhaps if they had a less reliable supply of bombs they'd take greater care in doing so and wouldn't be so bellicose with their neighbors.
I suppose they still vote from abroad, although elections will only happen in 2 years or so. But brain drain does affect the economy so it is in itself a “vote”.
Let’s all welcome these new arrivals and make them realise that the World doesn’t hate them as long as they don’t subscribe to the genocidal ideology of Zionism.
Don’t be like this guy.
Why does this guy have to be like this guy?
Im not your guy, buddy
That is actually antisemitic. These words get throw around a lot, but this time I think it’s warranted.
Well, it could be ultranationalist, isolationist or some other bigotry, not necessarily tied directly to their lineage.
That’s a good point, okay it may not be antisemitic but I think we can both agree it’s a form of bigotry.
Based on his anti-capitalist rants in other comments I’m guessing it’s just your standard issue tankie chud. They should replace the sickle with a horseshoe.
Why? They’re leaving, the diehard zionists and settlers are staying
To be fair they were fine with the genocide that was happening before they picked up the pace
I heard that around 43% of Israel’s population were immigrants, and they were born after 1993.
Not heard, is documented and real .
It’s tricky to make those distinctions when you have people who are born there to immigrants, whose parents are 1 immigrant 1 not, whose grandparents are some mix of the two statuses, etc., when you’re really trying to describe demographic shifts over time built on top of migration.
You catch the full picture just looking at broad demographic data 1800 to today. Roughly 3-4% of the population in the Palestine area is Jewish at the beginning of the 19th century - ranges from 5 to 14% Jewish by 1914 based on which source you check, by 1948 it’s up to about a third, today about 50/50 (encompassing the same area). There’s about 6 million Palestinians in diaspora now (from something like 1.5-2M fleeing in 1948, 1956, 1967, and other times). 5.7M registered with UNRWA. And we know that there were roughly 4 million Jewish immigrants since 1800 as well (primarily 1880 to today), with the large majority of those post-1948. The 1990s “post-Soviet aliyah” (migration) being the largest in the last few decades.
Gotta pump those numbers up.
It it continues that way it will be even physically a state made for war, surveillance, war edge technology, etc in favor and protection of west allies. With free to do whatever they want. Because where they are. They already showed it with the multiple (not just now) genocides of Palestines . The first one was “justified” on social opinión after WW2.
does that include the members of the IDF invading Lebanon ? Because those numbers seem low.
This is going to be like Russia, the smart and sane ones leave only for the dumb people remaining to prop up an authoritarian regime.
Where is this Galt’s Gulch where all the world’s sane and intelligent have fled? Because they sure aren’t in America, and most of Europe isn’t looking too brilliant either!
Same as it ever was.
less dumb and more financially incapable to leave.
What were the smart and sane ones even doing there in the first place.
Where’s the argument for the new settlements in the West Bank when the population is declining?
Money for developers and grifters?
Maybe those 82.000 Israelis left to colonize the West Bank
Well yeah, that other shoe is going to drop something fierce.
Good thing they have the option to leave the country, probably for somewhere better, unlike the Palestinians.