West urges Israel to show restraint amid escalation fears
(www.politico.eu)
from jeffw@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 12 Oct 2023 21:41
https://lemmy.world/post/6718340
from jeffw@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 12 Oct 2023 21:41
https://lemmy.world/post/6718340
#world
threaded - newest
Could have said it a week ago, assholes.
How many Palestinian children died while you held your breath?
I dunno, how many babies did Hamas terrorists decapitate?
So far, zero confirmed.
Let’s see confirmation of your claim, then.
What claim? You want me to prove that it hasn't been proven?
prove I don't exist!
Let’s ask Netanyahu and IDF for some confirmation of THEIR claim, then.
How does it matter how exactly they kill innocent people, including children of all ages?
Why would you even start to argue about this one specific detail? Because it is the only one where solid proof has not surfaced so far? What is there to gain?
My comment should not be read as an endorsement of Hamas behaviour, because it's not.
Lol, what?
He said the wrong thing then got corrected.
“How does that matter!!” - you
Because he proved the narrative false, therefore the topic must be changed to a personal attack.
Ding ding ding! Because some people are not on the side of truth but instead blindly support their “team” like a football hooligan.
Where is the personal attack…?
I find it extremely odd that people argue about that those 40 babies are not confirmed beheaded. As if that matters? Nothing changes if that were confirmed. Or when it were only 20 that were beheaded.
Are you saying evidence and proof don’t matter?
Because it does matter if it were 0 babies and they lied saying it was any number greater than one.
I can send you a link to a baby that was burned to charcoal, together with the parents - in case you think stuff like that did not happen. NSFL, obviously, so not going to randomly link that here. There is zero question that such fucked up shit happened. The question is only about exact numbers or how exactly they were murdered.
It doesn’t matter. Children dying from decapitation is equally bad as children dying from airstrikes.
Is that worse than children dying of starvation, constant destruction of infrastructure and housing, or fuel and food blockades? Does it matter if the violence is directly inflicted or is just institutionalized?
Ok so address the fact that Israel has killed 36x more children
Weird how you people think decapitations outweigh airstrikes.
Yeah, it’s gruesome and you can see the perpetrator, but that’s really it.
Israel constantly gets to hold some high ground in your mind because airstrikes on civilians are ‘civilized’ while shooting civilians is ‘barbaric.’
Killing civilians is killing civilians. Israel is king in that regard.
Shouldn’t you know? Why are people so happy to not know the basic facts of what they have opinions on?
The number, since you don’t know, and it seems you fucking should, is over 550. That’s the count for children, killed by Israel, since Saturday.
Oh, and the number of babies beheaded by Hamas? Zero. Had it happened, media would he all over it. Oh, and the whitehouse would certainly not have to do a correction that in fact Biden had not seen any pictures of it.
It’s ok to think a little bit critically. You should try it.
Ftfy
Not too late given what they’re going to try to do next
Or currently in the process of doing: cutting electricity, fuel, etc from entering Gaza.
This whole situation is fucked
In any given exchange of violence for these actors, it is a pretty reliable bet to say that there will be about a 10:1 ratio of Palestinians versus Israelis killed. I expect that we will see between 10k and 20k Palestinians killed, and probably somewhere less than 2k total Israelis killed. I think there will be fewer people killed by bombs and bullets than by the blockade. I suspect 90% of the casualties will be civilians. I think that all of the people who die in fear and pain while hiding in their homes as well as those who die on the barricades will be forgotten in a year or so.
I also suspect that the remaining checks on Bibi’s already significant power will end, and that Hamas will effectively cease to exist as a political power.
Much like the 2.5 million Palestinians trapped in the Gaza strip, Hamas ain’t going anywhere.
Shelling civilians will definitely make more Hamas members out of people still there as well
I don’t believe so. I think the question will be “What the fuck were they thinking and what did they achieve for this tremendous cost?”
If Hamas had coordinated a simultaneous attack from the West Bank along with air strikes from Syria etc., it would have been something. I personally think they still probably would have lost, especially because the US would surge weapons, but it would show a strategy.
This was just throwing lives away for less than nothing. You cannot deal with Netanyahu. Even the president of the fucking US couldn’t get him to fall in line with a less than far right policy. Hamas just dealt him the best hand he has yet held.
So just ignore history then huh?
I have literally no idea what you’re referring to here. I said absolutely nothing about ignoring history or the justification of either side.
I am saying this attack was stupidly executed. I could not think of a more stupid way of doing it. They exactly pissed off everyone while making zero impact on either Israeli occupational strength or military capability. In chess, they opened with pawn to F3. I have seen that memorably described as “the worst opening move, other than just resigning.”
It’s so astoundingly stupid that I just know something’s going to come to light later about it. Right now my best guess is a within-party struggle in Hamas. I would not be surprised if there’s factional fighting going on as well, or overtures being made. But I do not think Israel is going to make a compromise that doesn’t leave them toothless and involve the surrender of a lot of leadership.
History as in every country that has gotten bombed the fuck out in the last 100 or so years has spawned terrorist cells who then spawn others. What makes you think this time will ignore all of history and somehow be different.
I am not saying that this current conflict is going to end “terrorism” in Israel. I am saying it is going to end Hamas as a political force. The IDF will kill many, and intelligence services will target others in a “gloves off” fashion.
I am equally sure there will still be bombs on busses.
I don’t think it will, Hamas leadership are likely cloistered in friendly countries and will continue regardless.
There always will be because it gets headlines, both sides of this conflict are quite familiar with civilian bombings.
Generally speaking - and we’re getting a bit more theoretical here - you cannot lead an organization like Hamas remotely. There are people on the ground in country who have a level of … enthusiasm … that when combined with charisma and their carefully maintained support networks will dislocate persons who have the disadvantage of communication delay and not being in the room for the meeting, as it were. Someone particularly famous can pull it off for a time if they have trusted lieutenants, but it’s precarious.
I doubt that Osama was in active control of Al Qaeda from Pakistan. These aren’t organizations that send an email that cc’s your boss. These people will shoot you if they think you’re weak or ineffective.
Figureheads aren’t leaderships and that is generally what is referred to as “leadership”. Almost every fighting force at this point is lead at ground level and coordinated with other services, even the cartels do it.
There simply won’t be a Hamas to join going forward.
There will always be an existential enemy, always.
People don’t join terrorist groups because they think they can win, they do it because they’re so pissed off at the target they want to strike back.
People do think they can win. I do not consider the Taliban a terrorist group, but they were irregular forces that fought a war, and they won, in a limited sense. The IRA won, in a sense, both with the creation of the Free State and with the end of the Troubles. Mandela won, although the ANC was designated as a terrorist organization. Vietnam won.
The Black Panthers were an actual threat to the racist institutions in the US. The Weathermen were not. The Panthers had a strategy. The Weathermen were angry college students without training.
Didn’t the Weathermen reveal COINTELPRO?
Their existence depended on their existence being more politically palatable than the level of effort necessary for their elimination.
A modern nation-state like Israel or the US relies on a principle of disproportionate response to deter aggression. You have the most far-right, violent, and most corrupt government in the history of the state in charge and, as a result of the scale and targets of the “unprovoked” attack, they have the support of the only countries whose support matters in situations like these. The level of violence executed against Israel was enough to piss it off, but not to hurt it at all. None of their very significant military capacity was diminished. Hamas doesn’t have an Air Force. They don’t have any SAMs to speak of. They are cut off from resupply. They have no armored vehicles nor the ability to defend against them in significant number. Their “artillery” consists of unguided rockets they can fire in a general direction and which inflict so little damage as to be militarily ignorable and which only count as a “terror weapon” because it helps Israeli propaganda. They are politically and geographically isolated. They will not be resupplied. Israel on the other hand has a blank check and supply lines that cannot be interrupted.
If Israel decides to effect a ground incursion, it will be over rubble. They will call in airstrikes from fighter-bombers that the Palestinians will not be able to defend against. This is not Afghanistan. This is not Ireland.
Netanyahu is going to proceed as if he has a mandate to end this, and he is a very hard person. I do not think it gave him enough inertia to do to Gaza what Putin did to Crimea - I don’t think they can simply call it part of Israel now - but there’s going to be a reckoning.
What we are seeing right now is the limited response. I’ve been on the wrong end of irregular infantry. I’ve never been on the wrong end of modern armor, air, and artillery. I don’t recommend either, but the effects of the latter are indescribable. That’s not even touching on intelligence and special services, who I am very certain are being tasked as we speak.
Life in Gaza is about to get intensely worse for civilians. It will remain much worse than it was long after the last shell gets fired.
I honestly cannot see any way that this results in anything but an across the board loss for hamas. I also think it’s going to crush Gaza. Making life in Gaza even worse than it was is really hard, but I think they managed to make sure that comes about.
And, ya know, also Netanyahu/Israel themselves.
I agree, but all I am going to say is that it will be interesting to read additional facts as they start to come out in the next several years with leaks and memoirs.
I am not a conspiracy theorist. I don’t think Bush did 9/11 and I don’t think FDR did Pearl Harbor. Human failure in war - including intelligence failure - is a constant that has been observed from something as foundational as Clausewitz to the Want of a Horseshoe Nail.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Want_of_a_Nail
Historically since 2008 to just before the conflict was 21:1, it’ll be more 100:1 by the end.
I’ve been out of that business for a while and was going off of memory, so I’ll go with your numbers.
I do think the world will pull the plug on this particular situation before there are 100k Palestinians dead unless Iran or Syria gets involved. I think the problem is going to be that the rate of death is going to go vertical, and it won’t be possible to stop before it hits 10k, which could happen in a month or less depending on what they do with electricity and fuel.
It’s what the UN states showed last I checked.
I remain hopeful I just think it’s very unlikely anyone can or will step in.
I think that other states will step in, and I think Israel will step back and say “What the fuck did we do?”
But history doesn’t make me think that’s going to happen nearly soon enough.
Yes yes, you want the genocidal of all Palestinian, don’t need to sugarcoat that.
The thing is America already tried bombing an idea out of existence twice in Vietnam and Afghanistan and it failed twice. I just don’t see how brutal conflict does anything more then inspire the next generation of extremist. We need to break the cycle of violence.
I’m not saying that the desire for Palestinian autonomy is going to be ended. I’m saying that Hamas-the-organization is going to cease to be an effective factor in it. It will be replaced by another organization, or several. I could certainly see another intifada coming out of this.
But you can most certainly bomb (and buy) an idea out of existence. There was a time when there existed a pan-Arab movement. Partly post-colonial, partly anti-Israel, partly Third World-ism in reaction to the Cold War, it tried to unite the Arab world across the borders drawn by the colonialist countries.
It went down in flames due to
That’s actually where politicized Islam has its roots - in the defeat of modern, semi-socialist Arab internationalism. Looking back, we would probably have been better off with the pan-Arab movement becoming an entity that could make peace with Israel (like Egypt did) than have political Islam replace what at the end of the day was basic national aspirations in the post-colonial period.
What a useless statement. There is no way to break the cycle while Hamas exists. You know that.
We fully support you! But hold back guys.
Here’s more ammunition for bombing everyone, but please don’t bomb the wrong target :(
Israel does not give a single shit about warnings from Europe as they were smart enough to not make their existence dependent on us.
Why would they? Any criticism of anything they do can be called antisemitism and made illegal.
It is antisemitism when people cannot separate Israel from “jews” and keep screaming “death to the jews” while trying to protest against Israel. And there are many people who criticize Israel’s way of handling this without it being made illegal. So I suspect you belong to that group that just cannot help themselves when trying to protest Israel.
It cuts both ways, on the one hand you have legit antisemites hiding behind the fig leaf of Israel critique, on the other Israeli rightoids to fascists deliberately confusing being against them with being antisemitic. It shouldn’t be particularly surprising that Kahanites and the like call anything they don’t like antisemitic same as Nazis call anything they don’t like anti-German, they are, after all, the same shit with a different coat of paint.
But there’s generally an easy solution to that: Be precise. Both sides of the conflict aren’t uniform hive-minds and pretty much whatever position you hold, you’ll find it reflected in either or (preferably!) both, somewhere. Worst thing that could happen is that you do some research and learn something about the local politics :)
As it should be.
Cowardly hide behind label as zionist should be?
West: “A little bit of genocide is fine but too much and you might make the rest of us look bad”
Do you really believe that killing every member of hamas will stop the cycle of hate and violence?
I love that people can just add “factually” to things and they become true.
Factually, it’d only create more of them. We’ve seen this before. Killing them only pisses off their friends/family/others nearby and spreads it. The only solution is change coming from internally, which also has to happen in Israel. As long as a Zionist is in control killing Palestinians, there’s always going to be conflict.
Ah yes. Eliminating the Nazi state really only created more German Nazis.
Since when was the goal in WW2 to kill every member of the Nazi? The actual goal is to stop the war. Attempting to purge Palestine of every Hamas member is destined for failure and only perpetuate the conflict in the long run.
Honestly, possibly. It didn’t get rid of them at least. Many were hired by the US and Russia, and many fled in particular to Latin America, where they still use Nazi symbols today.
That’s not to say the war was wrong or ineffective. It’s a different situation. Many people stopped following the Nazis because they were shown the atrocities the state committed. Most of this was hidden from the populace by the Nazi party. That and them no longer benefiting from the party is what drove most people away, not losing a war.
For example, the French people fought well after the state surrendered in WWII. The state losing the war will not stop people from fighting if they believe in the cause, and especially if the oppressors keep harming them. This is more equivalent to the situation in Palestine/Israel, not the Nazis.
You do realize that every Hamas member has families and friends, right? You kill them and their loved ones now hate you, their kids will likely grow up into vengeful extremists and anyone caught in the crossfire won’t view you positively either. Your method only works if you completely genocide Palestine, now there’s no one left to hate.
Living under the IDF is continued oppression and death
They should’ve taken the two state solution the multiple times it was offered, then.
What an insane justification for genocide
Remember when the people of Israel were extremely oppressed by an extremist party?
Your argument won’t hold up. It’s a dumb way to think, be better.
Remember when the world stood up and tried to eradicate that extremist party? That’s what’s hopefully going to happen now.
except that by bombing Civilians they will inevitably create new Hamas-Terrorist.
I’m sure Israel will pay as much attention to that as we paid to the rest of the world when they were all like “no dude there’s no nukes in Iraq what the fuck are you talking about”
That’ll work.
Egg them on and support them for 75 years and then tell them to chill out right before they wrap everything up.
Wrap everything up? This is a forever war until there’s a 2 state solution
You are more optimistic than I.
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/abe7c585-421b-44fc-b5a4-f28fd6c22fb9.webp">
Here we go again
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/7c0310d4-5a74-4fb6-aab9-13065545391e.jpeg">
Strange that two nearly identical maps are so diametrically labeled, but that’s the Internet, huh?
Aside from the nominal, both are accurate representations of steadily decreasing Palestinian territory.
Are you making a different point or is this intended as supplemental material?
Strange, that you cannot interpret a difference between your own fictional construct, and a timeline of reality.
Iit is not strange to point out the identical territories in a silly image pretending nearly identical pictures saying the same thing are opposites.
<img alt="" src="https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/d586126b-d4b0-41f1-b69d-ec00b06b197c.webp">
The bottom one is even worse in many ways.
The fact that it had previously had the tendrils of the British Empire in it, doesn’t mean they ever “owned” them. That’s Palestine in the first map, whether Britain agreed at the time or not. It’s their land.
No shit that plan was rejected, it gave up a ton of land, including most of the coast. Why would anyone agree to that.
Next pic, you decide it doesn’t exist at all. Cool.
Then Israel conquers the area of Jordan that was previously part of Palestine. Land that was never theirs, even by your own maps.
Then, in the final pic, Israel, out of the kindness of their heart, gives a tiny amount of (continuously shrinking) land and apartheid rule.
Like, give me a break. That’s supposed to be better?
Escalation? Didn’t they already bomb the shit out of that country’s innocent civilian population as literally nothing but cold blooded revenge and hatred? (And this is just talking about this month, not even talking about the past…).
Man, fuck those guys. Religion and politics of the region aside, I don’t know how any people or nation can support governments who take these official actions of mass murder and genocide right before our very eyes.
They might as well be Russia for all the evil they’re doing, except they’re not even pretending they’re doing it to help the Palestinians. They’re just gleefully bombing and starving women, boys, children, babies, en masse.
And no, just because they were also attacked horribly doesn’t give them the right to murder civilians like savages.
They’re supposedly a functional developed nation, they should understand basic things like rules of engagement, proportional and measured response, and, you know… not officially and happily committing unforgivable war crimes :-/
Man, fuck those guys.
As a Jew, I’m glad that world leaders saying something and standing up for the protection of innocents.
On an unrelated note - why do we care what Yanis tweets about this? So weird to have that in this article.