from HellsBelle@sh.itjust.works to world@lemmy.world on 14 Jun 13:40
https://sh.itjust.works/post/40140051
Israel’s defense minister warned Saturday that “Tehran will burn” if Iran continues firing missiles, as the two countries traded blows a day after Israel launched a blistering surprise attack on Iranian nuclear and military sites, killing several top generals.
Israel’s military said the strikes also killed nine senior scientists and experts involved in Iran’s nuclear program. Iran’s U.N. ambassador said 78 people were killed and more than 320 wounded.
Iran retaliated by launching waves of drones and ballistic missiles at Israel, where explosions lit the night skies over Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and shook buildings. The Israeli military urged civilians, already rattled by 20 months of war in Gaza sparked by Hamas’ Oct. 7 attack, to head to shelter for hours. Health officials said three people were killed and dozens wounded.
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Don’t fight back when we try and kill you, or we will kill you.
They really want a world war 3
FUD
It’s not . Imperial China won’t let imperial USA control more of the global economy
They are headed for global dominance anyway, they don’t need this.
Major powers like China don’t simply stand by and let rivals control vital resources like Iranian oil, especially when those resources are crucial to their own energy security and global strategy regardless
They absolutely do, don’t interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake.
USA is fucking up badly, and ruining it for their allies too, China doesn’t need to do anything right now.
China may use the distraction to help Russia more, but they will probably just use such opportunities, and silently take over where USA fails.
Iran has no chance of winning against the USA, and Israel wants the USA to get involved. China’s biggest enemy is the USA, which considers Israel a bigger proxy than Ukraine.
Yes that’s all true, except I don’t see how China would be behind Israel attacking Iran? The west is destroying itself right now because of Trump.
And here in Europe we are scrambling to find footing in this new reality where we cannot rely on USA anymore. But 100% Europe will NOT help Israel in this. And for now USA doesn’t seem too interested either.
China is definitely benefiting, but I don’t see any indications they are behind it.
I never said that china is behind israel attacking iran.
Just look at france,uk, germany, canada reaction to the attacks. They are blamed iran. They are still supporting israel occupations while claiming they don’t
Yes you did:
No, i am saying that as a consequence of israel trying to change the regime. China could be forced to intervene
You hungry, buddy?
Israel does not want world war 3. They want to seize territory, establish regional hegemony, and build out their ethnically pure, fascist empire. All of that is terrible and they deserve to be wiped from the map for trying. They do want the US to fight their war for dominance for them, so they are trying to manipulate the US into ever more participation in the project. But, world war isn’t the goal.
Don’t Israel realize that China won’t accept the USA having another puppet regime that will give them more natural resources and economic power ?
I’m not really on either side of this conflict, both are assholes IMO.
But it seems to me Israel just demonstrated why it is that Iran wants to have nuclear weapons to defend itself.
Also it was kind of USA that started all this bullshit, undermining and overturning a democratic government in Iran, to instate the Shah as a totalitarian dictator.
So I guess it’s understandable that Iran doesn’t trust USA, and Israel by proxy because it is heavily supported by USA.
AFAIK the sanctions against Iran is mostly because Iran want’s to be able to defend itself against superior forces.
Note that Iran is theorized by the West without evidence to want nuclear weapons; it's not in any way established fact that they're trying to make them.
It is pretty well established that the levels that they have enriched their uranium is above that deemed for “civilian use”. They have a highly scrutinized nuclear program, and we have a lot of information available to us about it.
Yeah, but it’s “the west” with this evidence and clearly we can’t trust anything they say, no matter how defensible the evidence is. Because west bad, or aomething.
Since we are going a little off topic, do you know what is interesting about the West vs East rhetoric?
It can be traced back to Ancient Greeks and the Persian wars. The Greeks saw the Persian invaders as the “Barbarians from the East” and themselves as the “Democratic West”, and because Greek written language dominated at the time the rhetoric took quite the hold and is still a part of our rhetoric today.
You need to be. One side is a signatory to a nuclear nonproliferation agreement who is trying to create a nuclear energy program for civilian energy, under watchdog guidance for 40+ years.
The other side is Israel. A nation committing a genocide, with the full backing and support of another nation, the US, who itself is the only nation, in the history of the world, to use nuclear weapons. Ever.
One side has really good propaganda and makes you think “both sides are bad.”
the mullah regime is pretty fucking awful.
And that means they cannot have nuclear energy?
It means take anything they say they’re doing with a block of salt.
same in all directions, really.
And yet you seem to be taking one side at face value while dismissing the other out of hand…
Seems less about reasonable skepticism and more about implicit and unreasonable bias.
I’m saying that one nation has no “right” to stop the internal actions of another, especially a nation who is committing genocide at this very moment.
But that wasn’t your original point, your original point was that one side was bad and the other wasn’t. That was the entire crux of this argument. Are you abandoning that now to just say “Israel bad, all else is irrelevant”?
where did I say one was not bad? I simply said differences. One signed a nonpro agreement. one is doing a genocide.
All nations are bad. They should not exist.
None have the right to “stop” another from progression in a promised fashion by “preemptively” striking.
And just to close the convo, yes, fuck Israel.
Your very first comment. Where you responded to someone saying people shouldn’t be on either side because they’re both bad, you said we should be on one side because the other is bad. That’s saying one is bad, one is good, unless you’re saying we should be on the side of a bad guy.
You’re right that Israel is in the wrong. They made an attack on a sovereign nation, mostly to distract from that genocide you speak of.
That has nothing to do with Iran being in the wrong, though, which these days they regularly are. And thus we shouldn’t take their claims that they’re on the up and up and totally good guys at face value.
No doubt Iran is bad too, the death warrant on Salman Rushdie is very clear evidence of that.
The USs actions in world war two are an odd thing to bring up in this context. It was a radically different set of circumstances, 80 years ago, and none of the people involved are alive anymore.
It’s entirely irrelevant.
May as well point out that the US was the driver for the creation of those watchdog groups and is a leading force in nuclear disarmament. It’s just as relevant to if Iran has a nuclear weapons program or Israels justification for attacking.
Iranian opposition to US strategic interests in the region giving the US a strong motivation to let anything that makes them weaker happen is a perfectly good thing to mention.
irrelevant? I’d say unnecessary and yet game changing.
What does that even mean? How is what a nation did generations ago relevant to two different nations in a totally different scenario?
do you not realize there are people still alive today who were when the US nuked two cities?
No, what I don’t understand is what relevance that has to this situation. The US using nukes on Japan 80 years ago doesn’t make Iran making nukes justified. It doesn’t validate Iran not having nukes. It neither strengthens nor weakens Israeli claims of an Iranian weapons program, and it doesn’t make a preemptive strike to purportedly disable them just or unjust.
It seems like you’re arguing that the US nuked Japan and therefore Iran, a signatory to the nuclear nonproliferation treaty, is allowed to have nukes. Israel is falsely characterizing their civilian energy program, and we know this because of their backing by the US.
It’s just a non-sequitor, particularly when there’s relevant reasons why US involvement complicated matters. .
It is not that it makes them justified, you seem to think I support what the US did. No. I say that the US has no right to pretend to worry about and therefore control other nations when the US has a documented history of using them.
If anything, the world could be “within its rights” to “preemptively strike” the US!
Yes, I understand what you’re saying, it’s not a complicated position.
Your position is that national reputation matters more than anything else. And most pointedly, the national reputation of your allies matters more than any other argument.
What I’m saying is, is that the actions the US, or any other nation, took before the people currently running things were even born have no bearing on current events. Nations aren’t people, and they don’t possess a national character that you can use to try to predict their behavior or judge them.
Would the world be justified in concluding that it’s only a matter of time before Germany does some more genocide? Before Japan unleashes atrocities across Asia?
If you’re getting down to it, the US can’t control other nations, beyond stick and carrot means. And the US has the same right to try to keep Iran from getting nukes as Iran does in trying to get them. Because again, nations aren’t people. They don’t have rights, they have capabilities.
And all of that’s irrelevant! Because the question is, is Israel justified in attacking Iran? The perception of hypocrisy in US foreign policy isn’t relevant to that question.
and re your last- exactly. Israel is the true problem here. The US backing it is another thread for sure. :)
“Look, I know I used meth and got thoroughly addicted and it completely ruined my life and it has taken years to get to a place where I’m able to have a semblance of a life, but I can’t tell anyone else not to use meth! That would be hypocritical of me, since I did! No, no one has any right to ever share what they’ve learned through experience.”
This is the hypothetical situation you’re arguing for.
Yeah. because that’s how the world works. Let me sum up my point like this:
US, Israel, UK - all genocidal colonialist projects who have nothing good for the world and should not exist as nations. And in the current “geist”.
The rest of the world - also genocidal colonist projects who should not exist as nations.
also if an adult wants to do meth no other adult has a “right” to stop them.
The US is NOT the world police. Sheesh. get uncle sam’s boot out of your mouth.
To be fair, Iran is an authoritarian theocracy that has called for the total annihilation of Israel. That may agree with what many crazy people on Lemmy want too, but it cannot really be called defensive. It’s not as Iran just wants to “be left alone”. In the eyes of Israel Iran is an existential threat, therefore the attack did not come out of a vacuum.
Israel engages in similar rhetoric. I wonder if the sentiment would be “Iran just preemptively defended itself” amongst our politics and media if Iran was to strike nuclear facilities and assassinate military leaders and scientists in Israel.
if we look at history then israel is a existential threat for not just all its neighbour but the entire humanity.
you do realize that apart from bombing school full of kids and sniping pregnant women, israel also supplies spyware and weapon to far worse countries than iran and even some of the most violent drug cartels of the world ? and they do so with full support of cia because they have hijacked both parties using the “aid” we give them.
You need to put down the propaganda. There are shades of gray between black and white and it’s white weird to think Israel is THE WORST considering all that is going on in the world.
Trump going crazy because of his birthday protests and lunching the nukes seems more of a “the whole world” existential threat than the hate of yet another small country in the Middle East at war.
and you think israel is not the major factor as why trump won the presidency ? netanyahu wanted trump as president and there is no doubt there was more pro-trump hasbara propaganda than russian. aipac has been funding spineless hacks in dnc local primaries vs strong progressives for decades. schumer has openly said that above all his job is to keep dnc pro-israel. harris chose to risk loosing the election than even say anything remotely critical of israel when they were burning people alive in hospitals and shooting UN. aipac has been doing all to support any legislation that give more power to trump to suppress any pro-palestine activity. and do they care if trump use it to kill a thousand anti-ice protestors ? no they will do all to help trump turn us into dictatorship if it ensures they don’t have to care about public sentiment against them (which it is overwhelmingly in both red and blue states)
Why does Iran want total annihilation of Israel?
it’s a muslim country, check other muslim countries and their statements during any war.
this doesn’t answer the question!
The fact they have a reward for the death of Salman Rushdie is enough for me to know they are criminally insane.
Like WTF! Death penalty for writing a book?
The Iranian government cannot be trusted. But it’s the same for Israel. They deserve each other.
Pakistan is the other lone stander that absolutely refuses to recognize Israel and also happens to have nukes that can reach Israel, yet they’ve done jack on that sentiment, despite the ISI having a history of outplaying Mossad.
Iran wants nukes for the same reason everyone else has nukes. It’s just a gg ez ace up your sleeve that can be utilized to prevent this exact conventional warfare escalation by threatening to use your nukes, which is exactly what Israel does to the other surrounding arab states. Moreover it would be dumb to nuke Israel when they keep daydreaming about reconquering the holy land, which would be impossible if its covered in radiation.
Pakistan and India’s LoC is a massive militarized flashpoint that imo suprasses the DMZ, yet overtime they have a fight, it over after a few days when they nuke threat comes out and everyone signs a ceasefire agreement no questions asked.
Iran wants the same deal so they can be left alone to run their authoritarian regime in peace lol.
Israel should be annihilated if the occupiers refuse to leave.
The world would be a better place.
Da shah is with yo ma
So dumb. They’re not even trying to be less obvious. US puppet. Gotta do what they say. Is there an Iranian military GoFundMe?
The US is more the puppet of Israel imo
I don’t know what to think anymore. I hate both these regimes. Bibi told the Iranian people to rise up against their government, and I…agreed with him? I am a child lost in the woods right now.
One side is a signatory to a nuclear nonproliferation agreement who is trying to create a nuclear energy program for civilian energy, under watchdog guidance for 40+ years.
The other side is Israel. A nation committing a genocide, with the full backing and support of another nation, the US, who itself is the only nation, in the history of the world, to use nuclear weapons. Ever.
You might be forgetting the part about about the Iranian regime being a violent, repressive theocracy that jails, tortures, and executes dissenters, treats women like state property, rigs every election, and bankrolls terrorism just to cling to power
were you speaking about Iran or the US? It’s hard to tell.
Maybe it’s both.
It’s both
Yes
That’s pretty much like Israel?
Pretty much. They are also an awful regime. Everyone is fucking awful and the world sucks.
Almost as if two thing can be shit at the same time
One of the things I hate about this is that an all out war will just solidify power and make it harder for the Iranian people to topple this leadership. A shared enemy will distract from the importance of antagonizing the regime.
That’s a very good point. It’s an awful thing. But a very good point. Maybe they will rise up though? Fingers crossed 😬
www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1mg7kx2d45o
You can support Iran, their right to nuclear weapons (then deal with the inevitable proliferation to SA), right to self defense and even the influence it seeks as the leader of the middle east, but please don’t be naive or play others for fools.
Iran should if they so desire have weapons too. After all, the US and Israel do. Two nations who are doing crimes live in front of our eyes.
For the record, pun intended, “confidential report” means “no evidence.” Remember the Gulf of Tonkin?
There is no such thing as a preemptive strike when Israel has no articulated reason to believe Iran was going to harm them. Iran, by rights written in that silly UN, has the RIGHT to strike back defending itself.
Israel wants a larger war because that gaslights the greater nations into conflict, destroys more working class people, and brings about greater profit for Israel’s owners.
All nations are bad. Do not get that wrong.
But Israel, not even truly a nation, is a fucking terrorist organization.
Sure, but don’t pretend it’s just for civilian nuclear power, that’s all.
A) There is no second source verifiable proof it’s for weapons. Only “super secret promises of proof” by the same people that printed claims hamas has bunkers under hospitals.
B) They should have weapons. After all, Israel does.
C) There have been no indications of testing, something verifiable and easily seen, something necessary to make weapons.
If you think they should have the weapons, why are you so reluctant to believe that they are trying to build them? Pick a lane:
A) Iran would never attempt to build nuclear weapons.
B) Iran has a duty to build nuclear weapons.
PS: btw, I haven’t made my mind up on whether they should have the right to them or not (if Pakistan/Israel can have them, these guys can too I guess, but that’s too late to fix now), but I bet that all UNSC members and most countries in the UN breathed a sigh of relief at what Israel did (it’s just less shit to deal with), even if it was illegal and everyone did their usual theatric posturing for and against the attack.
Why do you mention “duty”? there is no obligation. I simply mean that they are a state capable of deciding their own path.
How does that describe duty in the form of obligation?
e.g. “You should pick up the trash.”
I think both can be true. It start with one, then US withdraw from an agreement, thanks to Trump, and now trust in the US government specifically after the escalated genocide in Gaza, will be down and they have to Build it to protect themselves.
You can’t hold both at the same time, especially as they’re arguing that Iran couldn’t possibly be building nukes at this point by suggesting that the BBC reference to the report must be false. What you are saying is that Iran is justified in switching from A to B, which I can understand.
This makes sense. I recall thinking after Israel’s previous attack and dismantling Hezbollah that if I were the Ayatollah, I’d now be going full speed towards a nuclear weapon test, as that’s the only thing that can secure my regime’s survival and by extension the stability of the country (in whatever state it exists). After the last attack, that pressure is that much higher.
It’s a great tool to blackmail other nuclear powers to be responsible for your own state’s stability against your own fuckups e.g. Pakistan, fall of the USSR and Ukraine, NKorea, putin now. Nobody wants a messy state collapse, they can’t look away and risk losing nukes or letting them fall in the wrong hands.
Which on the whole I think is a good thing since we’ve seen that significant instability often affects most of us.
Well, consider how similar regime changes have gone in recent history. Instability, failed states, mass terrorist organization. It’s not impossible to get a better outcome if Iran’s regime is overthrown, but odds aren’t on their side. And then you have the actions of Bibi when this sort of thing happened in Syria - taking territory, bombing them, despite their pleadings for peace. None of this is good for getting a stable democratic governance as societies under threat go authoritarian to be able to act more quickly and efficiently in order to protect themselves. So while on the surface you might agree with Bibi, if you think about what that actually means, Bibi might want something else than that. Another failed state they can bomb if they feel any threat without repercussions because “terrorism” could be a lesser threat than a democratic economic and inevitably military power with much larger population that can wipe Israel if attacked.
Hmm, you make good points.
politico.eu/…/trumps-anti-iran-push-boosts-a-roya…
this is why we can’t have nice things…the US keeps making the same mistake and expecting different results…
They both suck, but one is receiving billions of dollars in aid from the US every year.
As long as we’re sure it’s only about stopping a weapon programme, obv.
How dare they respond to us attacking them?