Most Israelis not bothered by reports of suffering and famine in Gaza, new poll shows
(www.middleeasteye.net)
from IndustryStandard@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 06 Aug 22:36
https://lemmy.world/post/34062295
from IndustryStandard@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 06 Aug 22:36
https://lemmy.world/post/34062295
The vast majority of Israelis say they are not troubled by reports of famine and suffering in Gaza, a new poll released by the Israel Democracy Institute shows.
The survey shows that 79 percent of Jews in Israel were not troubled, or troubled at all, whereas 86 percent of “Arab” respondents were somewhat or very troubled by the reports about the war on Gaza.
The survey was conducted between 27-31 July.
#world
threaded - newest
yeah a nation of mostly Zionists would think that, wouldn’t they?
A nation of mostly fascists. Zionism is about the creation of a religious nationalist ethnostate through genocide.
It’s pure unbridled fascism, and Israelis have been indoctrinated to believe it’s okay when they do it since birth, as has a significant proportion of the Jewish diaspora. That’s why the genocide continues, and why Israel is the most dangerous threat to Jewish people since Nazism.
Source on genocide being included in Zionism theory?
Technically it's not explicitly about genocide, but here's the big guy on the topic:
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Herzl
Again, this isn't technically a genocidal idea in and of its own (though still crime against humanity stuff), but implementing it would inevitably wade pretty deep into genocide territory, as seen in the Nakba.
This seems to be a weak source.
I have found a detailed article that claims that while the historical Zionism did mention relocating non-Jewish people, killing them was only a fringe opinion among ultra-nationalist religious people. But this opinion has been spreading with every major conflict until those extremists got power in the current government and was further accelerated by the October 7 attack. theconversation.com/in-israel-calls-for-genocide-…
As I said, Herzl wasn't explicitly calling for total extermination here, but what he was calling for could only happen via genocide. This is why the Nakba included so many bloody massacres (which, yes, those constitute a genocide).
People seem to forget that when it came to Nazi rhetoric, the Nazis initially claimed they just wanted to “move the Jews”.
There’s a reason why the concentration extermination camps were called “The Final Solution” and not “First Attempt at creating an Aryan haven!”
For anyone curious, here’s a website where you get to guess whether a quote is from a Nazi or Zionist: zionism.wtf/#zionist-or-nazi
imeu.org/…/what-leading-israelis-have-said-about-…
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
oh I see, zionists were going to take the land peacefully, You are claiming that was the plan? Shall I show you quotes from zionists about how they thought about that?
Not sure about peacefully, ethnic cleansing is a crime in any case, but it’s a notch down genocide. That’s why I was curious if the early theoricians mentioned something akin to it or not. So far, it seems they didn’t.
Not quite. Zionism is about creating a secular nationalist ethnostate through genocide, with religious dressing simply as a way to get more religious Jews on board. It's no coincidence that early Zionist leaders were all unapologetically atheist.
I think there’s been a pretty significant divergence from the original Zionist leaders to modern day Zionism. The seeds were there, obviously, but things have deteriorated even further in the past few decades.
What meaningful divergence is there? Since the 19th century, Zionists such as Herzl were discussing means to ethnically cleanse the local populace via economic domination.
In practice, Zionists starting coming in droves armed, aiding the British in committing atrocities and suppressing Palestinian dissent and resistance. Then during the Nakba, they would straight up rape, murder, and rob the Palestinians.
Is the divergence in Zionism similar to that of Nazism, where the initial good peacenik Nazis simply wanted to peacefully relocate Europe’s Jewish population to madagascar? Are we going to act like the very pursuit of an ethnostate is not problematic in and of itself?
To be charitable I think our fellow poster meant that Zionists went from at least some modesty to a full embrace of revisionist Zionism. To further the Nazi analogy, it would be like going from Italian fascism to Nazism.
You’re probably right. I don’t think they meant any ill. If anything, I made my words a bit harsh because I was fed a similar myth growing up. Sometimes you need a new direct and visceral perspective to see something in a new light. We need to be as ruthless towards Zionism on an ideological basis as we are towards Nazism.
That’s not true. Zionism originates from the Jewish scriptures. Basically, Judaism talks about how Jews were promised by God, via the scriptures and the old prophets, the land of Israel as a homeland. It is the duty of Jews to resettle the holy land and establish a theological society that is based on the divine laws and systems laid out in the Torah. By doing so, Jews would achieve salvation for themselves, and eventually for the rest of the world. This global salvation will be marked by global harmony and the coming of the messiah who will guide the world in the path of God.
Virtually all Jews agree that Israel is their homeland and that they will eventually reclaim the holy land and settle it in a way that would bring salvation as they await the coming of the Messiah. Traditionally Zionism was seen as something that is out of human control and is entirely up to God’s will. Essentially Jews will go back to Israel when God wills it and people have no say in the matter, any attempt by humans to accelerate the salvation is seen as blasphemous as it’s an act of rebellion against God’s will.
That’s when modern Zionism split. Modern Zionists believe that political and secular Zionism is a tool given by God to enact his divine plan and to initiate the return of Jews back the land of Israel. Therefore following this type of Zionism is actually following God’s will and it’s the duty of religious Jews to pursue it.
Obviously, there’s a great deal of debate among Jews about which theological branch is correct, but either way, the origins of Zionism aren’t purely secular or nationalist.
Early modern Zionists (including Herzl himself) overwhelmingly didn't believe in God in the first place.
You should look up Theodor Herzl. Early Zionists were straight up voting on whether they'd build their Jewish state in Palestine or Uganda, and the vote was pretty narrow if I'm not mistaken. The rationale for choosing Palestine was that it'd be easier to get religious Jews (which the guys who were thinking up this stuff were absolutely not) on board. Like, do you think Ben Gurion or Golda Mier were having theological debates?
But this is separate from what I’m talking about. I’m specifically talking about the origins of the idea itself. It’s undeniably based in Jewish religious scriptures. That’s where the idea comes from even if modern Zionism evolved to be something different.
Okay this is going nowhere, so define Zionism. What do you think Zionism is?
I’m not debating what Zionism is. You made a false claim about the origins of Zionism and I corrected. That’s all there is to it
Russia gave them a completely autonomous oblast to settle and build years before that vote, but they didnt like the area. Same lattitude as northern japan. No war needed. No people to displace. self rule written into the constitution of Russia. Yiddish offiical language. But they didnt like the area so they left it empty. They could go there now and have an israel 2 if they wanted. They dont want that area because its not their biblical favorite area. All this genocidal behavior was a choice they made. They already had a “homeland”.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast
“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.” Ben-Gurion (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s “Ben-Gurion”).
I will never claim that all jews are bad because Israel is fucked up, nor will I ever claim that all catholics are bad because of the Spanish Inquisition or all muslims are bad because of the terrorists. It is true that not all people who follow those religions are bad.
However, one cannot deny the religious motivations. They are doing this because they believe that their sky daddy promised them that land, just like the catholics who did commit the inquisition believed their sky daddy wanted a pure catholic europe, and the racidal muslims believe their sky daddy wants to punish unvelievers/misbelievers.
This is just ignorant. There’s only 14 million Jews in the world and 90% of them either live in the US or Israel. If there were 1.9 billion Jews like there were muslims, for example, we would start seeing a bunch of different states that act very differently from other. I think most people can agree that Iran under the Mullah regime and Afghanistan under the Taliban are evil, but at the same time, there are also islamic countries like Albania and Kazakhstan that are pretty normal. Trying to judge all Jews off the actions off of the actions of Israel, it’s like judging all muslims off of the actions of Pakistan or all Christians off of the actions of Brazil. It’s just silly.
It’s ignorant to call out dumbasses who believe in fairy tales? Okay then, haven’t seen this sort of Zionist propaganda before
No, there’s a difference between being critical of a religion and judging an entire religious demographic on the actions of a particular state.
Nah, if you believe in mumbo jumbo you bet I’ll judge you as a less intelligent being. If you believe in some unprovable being that’s being used as a scapegoat for genocide you’re no better than the people committing said genocide
I’m not defending religion here. I’m with you on that. I’m just saying that it’s wrong to generalize an entire demographic for the action of a specific entity that has little to do with them. Israel =/= Jews or Judaism. Again, this is like judging all 1.9 billion muslims for the actions of the Taliban. It’s fine if you want to be critical of Judaism or islam or any other religion, it’s also fine if you want to be critical Israel or Afghanistan or any other state, but judging an entire demographic for the actions of a state just because of their religion? Now we’re starting to get too close to bigotry territory.
ah the old hasbara run-to. anytime you get weak, run back to pretending Israel represents all of judaism, and any criticism of what israel is doing is “antisemitic” which just means racist-- which is the most common thing in the world. But your racism always gets a pass. I get pretty tired of that nonsense. Why is universal human rights such a problem for zionists? Why do Palestinians have no rights?
Fun fact: You can report bigots under rule 4.
I dunno, I dont see Iran committing genocide and ethnic cleansing.
<quoted from user Gorilladrums, laying an accusation of genocide and ethnic cleansing on Iran. Copying before he deletes his post or it gets taken down for being misinformation>
oh my, they are committing genocide and ethnic cleansing in 4, maybe 5 places right now!!!
Bold claims. Well you know how making bold claims works. Show us the data, if you arent just making that up from your hasbara-fevered imagination.
edit: your comment is removed, gorilladrums but I’ll still wait for your reply on this one. Go ahead, redeem yourself. Show us you werent lying.
Refer to this comment:
lemmy.world/post/34062295/18801652
So your evidence of ethnic cleansing across 5 countries, of jews of course-- is a wikipedia page of the quds force and an article saying that someone said “damn the jews”. huh. More lies and misinformnation from you, as usual.
I was right about you after all, you’re just a troll
Says the zionist who got his comments deleted because they were misinformation. Sure buddy.
Why are you still here? Buzz off, go troll elsewhere. You’re not getting any more of my time.
Iran is not committing Genocide. That’s not to say they don’t WANT to or would if they could, they absolutely would, but nothing on the scale that Israel is doing.
No, you’re just entirely wrong. Iran is in fact committing both genocide and ethnic cleansing. Iran does it’s foreign policy through proxies, similar to Russia with Wagner, as it gives them plausible deniability when they face backlash. Iran isn’t exactly discrete with this either, they have an entire military branch called the Quds force that was specifically created and designed to conduct asymmetrical warfare. The Quds force has a very long and well documented history, where they fund, arm, train, and provide intelligence for proxies that are willing to do their bidding (source).
This isn’t exactly new either, they’ve have been doing this since the 80s. Iran’s major proxies in the Middle East have ALL conducted campaigns of genocide and ethnic cleansing against Druze, Baha’is, Christains, Jews, Mandaeans, Alawites, and Sunnis(especially Kurds). Here’s a very brief list of examples:
Yemen - The Houthis have successfully ethnically cleansed the Jews out of the country (Source 1, source 2). Just go read what’s on their official flag, and that will tell you all you need to know (source). They’ve also been doing the same to Baha’is (source)
Lebanon: Hezbollah has been trying to ethnically cleanse its Druze minority for decades now from massacring entire villages to launching rockets at Israel from Druze towns (so when Israel retaliates, it’ll land in their towns and kill them) to trying to create inter community violence and the list goes and on. (source). They’ve also been going after the Sunni minority in the country where they chase them out of their towns and neighborhoods (source)
Syria: The Fatemiyoun Division and the Zaynabiyoun Brigade have been notorious in ethnically cleansing Sunni and Christian Syrians from their towns (Source 1)
Iraq: Proxies like Kata’ib Hezbollah, Asa’ib Ahl al-Haq, Badr Organization, and a bunch of others are notorious for persecuting Sunnis, especially Kurds (Source 1, source 2). They also worked alongside ISIS to persecute Christians in the name of islam and also under the guise of anti-ISIS operations even though it was textbook ethnic cleansing(source)
Iran: Things in Iran are so bad that the OHCHR literally put out a 30 page report as a part of their Independent International Fact-Finding Mission program that explains how Iran has been persecuting and ethnically cleansing Kurds, Baluchis, Ahwazi Arabs, Azeris, Baha’is, Yarsanis, Christians, Jews, and bunch of other minorities. In the report they found that the Mullah regime used excessive and often lethal force disproportionately against minorities in their provinces (including massacres like “Bloody Friday” in Zahedan in 2022). The regime conducted mass arrests targeting minority activists, journalists, and religious leaders, where a lot of them were kidnapped and denied due process. The victims suffered beatings, electric shocks, sexual violence, and psychological abuse, alongside threats to their families. Religious minorities such as Baha’is, for example, faced home raids, property confiscation, school expulsions, and arrests, while Yarsanis and Sunnis had restrictions on their religious practices. The Kurds and Baluchis even had their gatherings, festivals, and publications banned, and they’re being punished for speaking their languages in public. Jews in the country have also been rounded up, arrested, and punished in mass over baseless accusations of the
Yes they’re demons. We know.
Don’t call fascists demons. They’re people. Any people can go fascist when the circumstances are right. This “fascists are demons, not reasonable people like us” attitude breeds complacency and an unwillingness to look directly at what fascism is and how it arises and functions, and that’s part of the reason fascism has come back to bite us hard.
No, soulless ghouls with a lack of empathy and compassion for others are not people.
I feel like you missed the point of their comment.
I didn’t.
Even though i agree with them i commented in anger and frustration.
Happens 🤷♂️
Yup. The other day, I made an angry comment about an environmental issue. Somebody replied with a sarcastic “congrats, you solved it”. Solving it wasn’t what I was trying to do. I was just venting.
We all need to do that sometimes.
Very smerprising indeed.
Smerprising?
I'm supposed to be pronouncing the word "surprising" weird as a marker of sarcasm, but yeah this probably doesn't make as much sense as I think it does.
PS: Non-native speaker here.
I’m picking up what you’re putting down, don’t worry.
Oh, I get it! I thought it was a pun at first; thank you for clarifying!
They’re inundated with propaganda (like we all are), and they can’t face the fact that their own government is committing such horrors. Plus, they just don’t want to think critically about the situation.
None of that excuses them, but simply writing them off as “evil” doesn’t help.
Writing them off as evil might not help, but understanding that they're fascists certainly does. You can't have peace with fascists until they're thoroughly beat down.
The propaganda is the zionist believe that rhe whole land belong to them and thst jews are superior to other people
They’ve been conditioned over the decades to consider them to be subhuman. I’m not saying that they are innocent, just that this is what they believe. Their propaganda is so effective that they no longer feel remorse for killing them as they see them as savages or monsters. In fact, they see themselves as the heroes of the story. And with every western country backing them up and giving them more weapons, what else would they think?
Dehumanization of the enemy is part of what enables genocidal actions.
Rephrase the question, “Do you fear the consequences of facing trials after the war, similar to how the nazi enablers did?”
That fear depends on a real threat of someone holding them accountable and being able to bring them to trial. Which country or countries would be willing and able to do this? The Nazis were unafraid until defeat started to loom as a real prospect.
The chances of that happening are pretty much nil. Not as long as the US keeps supporting them and even if they stop supporting tjem, Israel has nukes.
The only way it could happen is if there was a push for accountability from the population of Israel but polls like this shows that’s not gonna happen either as the population supports this.
Answer: No, the Nazis did not face consequences after the war and neither will we. The Nuremburg trials were a circus and few if any were held to account.
Yes, poll after poll has shown this. Israelis by and large are behind the genocide. They’re okay with it they approve of it and they like it. They’re not being forced to murder an entire people. They’re gleeful about it.
Na, und?
75%+ of Gazans approved of the October 7th attack and want to see Israel wiped out.
I can imagine Israelis would lack sympathy for a people who want to see them dead.
Has Israel considered surrendering and releasing the Palestinian hostages?
Hmmmm why would Gazans support October 7? I wonder what could have happened within the last century to make them sympathetic to such an attack? /s
They want occupation to end
There is no occupation. Israel is a sovereign nation that won its right to exist in several defensive wars.
You surely love to embarass yourself. So the UN is lying and human right orgs are lying? Where did you get the dumb idea that land sized in war become the winner land? It doesn’t when the winner take land it becomes occupied land and the occupied had the right to take it back
Would this be the same UN that puts KNOWN human rights abusers on the human rights council? The same UN that is dead silent on various commonly known abuses of human rights around the world? THAT UN? Are you SURE you want to cite THEM?
The same UN that the terrorist state of Israel is member of
Tell that to the people displaced by Israel’s illegal settlements:
press.un.org/en/2023/sc15424.doc.htm
ohchr.org/…/israel-ramps-settlement-and-annexatio…
www.bbc.com/news/articles/c1j5954edlno
amazing you landed on such a nice round number like that. would love to see the methodology of gathering that information while a population is literally being purged in genocide.
reuters.com/…/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-…
No, they probably even enjoy those reports.
Can’t say it out loud! Jewish Israelis approve of genocide. Where do most Jews live? Israel! The majority of Jews on this planet are perfectly happy committing genocide.
Sorry my Jewish friends in America and Europe, not putting this on you, but it’s a bad look. Most people aren’t separating “Jew” and “Zionist”.
There are more Jews in the USA than in Israel?
…m.wikipedia.org/…/Jewish_population_by_country
The question is; why would you not separate them if there is a clear distinction for the subgroup?
If most animals were cows, I would not say “most animals” because there is a very handy specific designation of the animals which are cows. Namely cows
In this case the word Zionist perfectly describes the of Jews which support Israel. And not only that, it also encompasses most Evangelical Christians. Which are not Jews.
So there is literally no reason to use the word “Jew” to describe Zionists when we already have the subgroup.
Another grave and mainstream media violation of this is media calling everything “Islamism” when they are describing the Wahabism sect.
Just use the name of the sect to describe the sect.
When I went to Israel last time I was genuinely surprised how many zealots there are. Most Israelis you meet outside of the country are just normal people but Israel itself is still full of mentally deranged. Religion is a hell of a drug.
If you really mean Israelis outside of Israel and not just Jewish people, that’s probably just code shifting. They know their opinions aren’t acceptable outside their bubble, so they keep quiet. It’s the same way a white supremacist will talk differently if they think any random white guy shares their views vs when an imposing minority is in the room.
My long-time ex was Jewish, can confirm. They were alright but their zionist relatives absolutely dropped some fucking bombs (proverbial, probably literal now) during family gatherings. The mildest was the tired old “part of being a good Jew is supporting Israel” ranging up to “Palestinians are subhuman and should be exterminated”. Mind, this was over twenty years ago and the situation has demonstrably escalated since.
I think it’s a little different. The Israelis who actually live or travel outside of Israel tend to usually be the educated, open minded ones. They’re usually the ones who want a two state solution and oppose wars. The whackos tend to stay in Israel. Not all Israelis are whackos, but all the Israeli whackos stay in Israel. It’s kind of like how the Americans who travel or live abroad tend to be liberal, but the MAGA types never even leave the country.
So how come there are tons of Israeli groups abroad from Israel who push zionist propaganda?
They need to renounce their bullshit faith or be ready to take in the backlash. It’s all made up (all religions), anyway, and if one can’t see that they really don’t deserve to procreate on this earth
I mean some do and some don’t. It’s the same as any other nationality. Israelis aren’t a monolith.
87% of israelis want every non jewish person expelled from the state of Israel. Thats a monolith.
It isn’t by definition…
Never go back there
The reason for this is that Israel has a lot of ultra orthodox Jews, and they can be pinpointed as THE source of the insanity inside the country. They don’t contribute economically, they’re always calling for wars and violence but they refuse to participate in the military, they throw tantrums when anything doesn’t go their way, and they’re always trying to coerce society to be more religiously extreme.
Yeah it’s so disappointing to see a culture being held hostage by extremists. It’s almost like west Asia can never fucking escape these zealots ruining it for everybody.
As someone wirh west Asian roots I wonder how incredible the region would be without religion.
Israel is a extremely racist nation and Palestinians are just “human animals” and even “vermin” to most Israelis.
Rotten from the roots up
Dehumanisation succesful.
Funny, I’m not bothered by Israeli death and suffering either. 🤷
This is the type of unhinged take that shouldn’t be welcomed in discourse. The reason why people are critical of Israel or Russia or Saudi Arabia or Iran or whatever is because they’re not bothered enough by the death and suffering. The whole point is to get them to deradicalize as a society so they won’t dehumanize other people. We went to bring them to the level everybody else is at, radicalizing ourselves to dehumanize them, that’s just making the problem worse.
ok gorilladrums, so tell us that you believe in universal human rights.
Clearly you don’t believe in them
I strongly believe in them. Your turn. Say it.
Say that Palestinians have rights because they are human beings.
But you’re literally arguing against them in this very thread
And there it is, you wont say it.
Sick, fascist country. They need to be occupied, reconstructed, and de-nazified.
Honestly, even just being allowed to sink or swim on their own would have prevented this. They’ve grown brutal and callous because the US has shielded them from any consequences of that.
20 years of being attacked by Hamas did that. Before Israel became anyone’s ally, they won multiple wars against multiple Islamic nations at the same time. Every single one of those wars would have ended in a second Holocaust if the Muslims had won.
The second holocaust is happening right now and it’s all thanks to the terrorists who founded israel, violently removing Palestinians from their homes, and setting the blueprint for the entire existence of the cancer known as israel. Palestine is only the beginning in the israelis’ campaign of lebensraum, they have a whole plan of “greater israel” that they’re looking forward to implementing.
imagine being in school and theres a boy thats mean to you, we can call him billy Palestine.
one day Billy Palestine pushes past you at recess and tou fall over and scrape your knee. Billy Palestine probably shouldnt have done that. It was mean.
But you dont push Billy back, no. The nect day at recess you chop his dick and balls off with a rusty mest cleaver and stuff them in his fucking mouth and assrape the shit out of him in fill view of the school before finally cutting off his head and leaving him right there on the playground.
Imagine defending this.
Imagine being in school and a little shitstain named Billy Hamas Palestine keeps throwing rocks at your family. Big rocks. Occasionally, those rocks hit you or a relative and your cousin has already suffered brain damage from it.
You tell the teacher and the teacher tells you to back off and leave Billy Hamas Palestine alone and blames you for his aggression.
After several years of this shitstain throwing rocks at you and your family, you throw a rock back. You land in the principal’s office with him asking why you hate Billy Hamas Palestine.
One day he pulls out a slingshot and kills several of your siblings, your dog, and then celebrates. You snap and grab your own slingshot and pelt him in a hail of rocks because you are FUCKING SICK OF HIM ALWAYS ATTACKING YOU AND YOUR FAMILY. Then the teachers and principal all come rushing out, telling you to stop because you’ll hurt him. They don’t CARE that he’s already killed your dog and siblings.
Eventually you have to say, “To hell with it. I’m taking you down so you won’t be ABLE to harm my family anymore. I’m sick of the teachers and principal enabling your behavior!”
This is where Israel is now. The only way Israel finds peace and avoids being genocided is to make sure those who have declared Israel to be their enemy isn’t capable to launching attacks. The majority of Palestinians supported Hamas and the October 7th attack. They’ve made their bed. Now they can sleep in it.
Israel has made many concessions for peace, even doing so far as giving up land they took in defensive war and every time they did, Hamas, Hebollah,etc declare it a victory and ramp up their attacks.
If Israel wants to take Gaza over entirely, good on em. At least then they can keep Hamas from coming back.
Oh, just 20 years?? Try since ethnic cleansing since 1948
Agreed, the Muslims have been trying to Genocide the Jews since Israel was founded.
Israel was founded by means of genocide
It was not, but thanks for playing. The Israelis lacked the weapons and manpower to genocide anyone and were surrounded on all sides by Islamic theocracies that would love nothing more than to genocide the largest group of Jews the world had seen since the Romans expelled them from their land.
And look at the death numbers. Maybe just maybe uf Israel wasn’t killing Palestinians they wouldn’t grow up hating Israel. I know its hard but it’s in their book I think an eye for an eye.
I imagine a lot of the world hates israel now. Not just Palestinians. Israelis thrive on that, so they can have a nice strong victim complex for the next thousand years.
“Why oh why does everyone hate us!! Its because they are racist antisemites! bohooohoo”
Hatred of Jews goes back centuries. It’s almost a worldwide pastime at this point. The difference is a lot of the antisemites have had to stop being openly hateful towards Jews because of shifting social norms, so they latch onto Israel as a way to vent their hatred in a politically correct manner.
I didnt say jews, I said israelis. Careful with this. Antisemitism gets you banned on lemmy.
Although for whatever reason, anti arab sentiment or support for war crimes doesnt. Huge double standard.
If Israel was run by Muslims, no one would care if they were turning Gaza into a heap of rubble. Just look at how concerned they are about the Druze.
crickets
Exactly.
Sadly true, but its different this time because the west is funding and supporting it-- and keeping middle eastern and arab nations in check too.
just read some of your comment history, dagwood. This is you huh. Well time for the old block user button. I dont have time for genocide deniers like yourself.
Dagwood_Sanwich to World News • Most Israelis not bothered by reports of suffering and famine in Gaza, new poll shows English
“There is no occupation. Israel is a sovereign nation that won its right to exist in several defensive wars.”
That’s right, hit that block button, block out the truth, while making a false allegation about holocaust denial.
If Palestinians weren’t constantly attacking Israel, there wouldn’t be an issue. Plenty of Palestinians lived and live in Israel peacefully. You can’t say the opposite.
The death numbers tell a tale of a people who attacked a foe that they had absolutely no chance of beating.
Hamas thought that they could kill Jews, take hostages, then hide behind civilians and cry to the world to stop Israel from retaliating. Israel usually does, but this time, Israel has decided that playing nice with Hamas only gets people killed.
They celebrated as Hamas paraded around corpses and hostages. That celebratory cheer became wails of despair when Israel decided that enough was enough.
Much like a violent teen punk who loves to punch people he thinks won’t fight back on camera, then acts tough, their tune changed real fast when the guy Hamas sucker punched decided to punch back and kept punching.
I kind of doubt that. It wouldn’t have been great, though, and I doubt they’d be above pushing everyone back into the diaspora.
It also was guys like Nasser being dumb, not Israel being blessed by god or whatever your pet theory is.
Edit: If what you’re saying is that Israel could defend itself, you’re right. It’d just have to respect the other nations around and in it, the way they actually did sometimes in the earlier days.
Uh-huh. And Israel was being super nice and reasonable to Palestine this whole time, right?
“History begins the last time the other feuding party did something”
Every nation that invaded Israel did so with the express intent to wipe out the Jews. There’s no other reason for them to invade land that wasn’t theirs to begin with, EXCEPT to exterminate the Jews who had moved in.
You have a funny, probably very personally convenient definition of “theirs”. If it was a Jewish place already, how did they move in?
Considering that the land of Israel was historically Jewish until the Romans forced them off the land, it belongs to the Jews because it was theirs.
Unless we have a limit on how far back we’re willing to look when it comes to “It was our land, it was stolen from us!”
Right, so what about the Babylonian Empire, or the bronze age Egyptian expansion into pre-Jewish Canaan? Shouldn’t it all go to Iraq or Egypt by that standard? Except, there were actually countless migrations before that too…
Also, genetically, Palestinians would have more second-temple Jew in them than an Ashkenazi Jew like me.
The U.S. won’t be of much help to them when climate change comes tapping at their back door.
Nature bats last
Russia said the same exact thing about Ukraine… maybe this is not a wise option in general.
And which genocide was Ukraine committing?
Russia accused them of a genocide in Donbass.
The point is that trying to rebuild countries is usually a very bad idea, especially by force. Germany and Japan after WWII are very rare examples in history.
Congratulations to israel for making the very rare examples list then.
What the brainless users here are suggesting is going to turn Israel into Afghanistan or Iraq, not into Japan or Germany. It’s been proven that country building just leads countries to become more extreme, and that shouldn’t be the goal.
Why would any of us care about any positive future for the israeli state? read the room, bud.
Ah I get now, you’re pro genocide and ethnic cleansing, just not when it conflicts with your ideological narratives. How convenient that you lack the very principles you harp on and on about.
Also make sure to stalk my profile and write a few hundred more comments. That will surely make you less of a troll
You think you’re important or interesting enough to have your profile stalked?
If you look at the pattern of all of our last replies, they are all in this one thread. So your accusation of stalking your comments page is just more of your usual lies and clumsy attempts at bullying.
Tedious.
Attempts at bullying? Lmao. Ah yes how could I be so cruel to poor little you who has been spamming a bunch of hostile comments to a bunch of people in hope of starting arguments… Yeah okay, troll.
“spamming a bunch of hostile comments to a bunch of people” nope its just you bud. And when I ask you to admit that Palestinians deserve human rights and you refuse to answer, you call that hostile? Seems like projection to me. And I thought you werent talking to me anymore?
Call me when you can admit the Palestinians are humans with rights.
Yet showed no evidence. We have thousands of hours of footage for evidence against israel. Stupid comparison.
Lemmy users are against violence and imperialism, except when it aligns with their ideology, and then they become the most bloodthirsty bunch. No morals, no principles, no values. You can’t stomp out extremism with violence. The US tried to do it with Iraq and failed, Russia tried to do with Chechnya and failed, India tried to do it with Pakistan and failed, hell, Israel itself is trying to do that with Hamas and failing. Could it be that you can’t get rid of extremism with tanks and missiles? Could it be that you can’t fight abstract concepts like ideologies physically? The answer is obviously, no, you can’t as history clearly shows.
Don’t mistake government-controlled or government-aligned media propaganda with the actual civilian populace.
Would you trust Netanyahu’s allies to put out fair, representative journalism about what is important to the general population?
You’re sounding mighty Putinish there.
For sure, but we need to start with the US.
That’s exactly as surprising as the sunrise.
Guess we can be anti semites
No, don’t be a bigot. Hating them for being Jews is wrong. Hating them for committing atrocities on Palestine is normal.
Yeah, genocide and bigotry is a universal human issue. If the people who experienced the Holocaust in living memory doing this doesn’t get that point across, I don’t know what will.
They’re not the same people!
The only thing that connects this bunch of modern Nazis and those whose suffered in the Holocaust is having the same religion (and, up to a level, race) and personal trauma doesn’t get transmitted via “sharing religion” or “sharing race” - there is no such thing as a Jewish Hive Mind.
So no, these assholes didn’t learn anything about how it feels to be a victim of a Genocide because they were never victims of a Genocide, almost none of their parents were victims of a Genocide and in the overwhelming majority of cases not even their grandparents were victims of a Genocide: only a small fraction of Israelis are descendants of Holocaust survivors and of those very few are first generation direct descendants.
One thing is to suffer something or those close to you suffering something - with all the emotional impact it has - and a whole different thing is intellectually knowing people you feel as part of your “tribe” having suffered it: you don’t learn empathy with the victims of something from intellectually knowing some whole unrelated people of your “tribe” were victims of it.
You’ve never heard of intergenerational trauma?
And, there’s literally no shortage of Holocaust survivors in the country. Like, sure, most modern Israelis aren’t, but there’s a definite connection.
Intergenerational trauma literally requires people to be descendants of those who suffered the trauma, and is not in any way form or shape about trauma being transmitted through race or religion and it works less the further away from the generation that suffered the trauma one is, all of which I covered in my post.
As for the rest, in 2023 there were 110,100 Holocaust Survivors in Israel, whist the population in total is about 9.5 million people, making Holocaust Survivors in Israel 1.1% of the population, so that leaves 98.9% of the Israel population who never suffered direct trauma from the Holocaust.
Even if one tries to account for direct descendants living in Israel (a very hard to estimate number), it would still be pretty hard for them to exceed the number of Israelis against what’s going on in Gaza which is about 2 million.
Or coming at it from another side, most present day Israelis come from Russia or are descendants of those who came from Russia (a large fraction are Orthodox Jews, who have very large families), most of which was not impacted by the Holocaust.
Holocaust survivors and their descendants are a minority in Israel so I don’t think they can be relied upon to make the broader people of Israel empathise with the plight of Genocide victims, especially if indeed as I have heard, Holocaust Survivors in Israel are seen as weak.
So, start with that 1.1%, add on all the ones dead of old age, and then multiply by the number of kids and grandkids the average one has. That’s a low estimate, because cultural transmission of the anxiety is pretty strong here - great grandchildren and close friends should arguably be counted as well.
The Shephardis and various other diasporas wouldn’t have been as much affected, although the fear of violence coming their way was heavily used to drive emigration to Israel back in the early days. The Ashkenazi population, however, is lousy with experience.
I think what’s really going on is that going through trauma doesn’t necessarily teach empathy. It can, or it can teach nothing (like Henry Kissinger said about his own survivorship), or it can straight-up make you mean. In Israel the dominant lesson that’s been taken out of it is that everyone’s always against the Jews no matter what, which conveniently removes any responsibility to look in the mirror.
Well, the thing is that the “anxiety” isn’t something that would make a person being against Genociding others as it’s all about self-protection and it might even make genocidal violence more likely: it’s far easier to spread the Fear that “they are against us” and convince people about how “we have to get them before they get us” in a climate of high anxiety (which seems to be something policians of all colors have for decades continuously cultivated in Israel and even amongst the Jewish Communities abroad), which makes extreme mass violence against the “others” deemed “the enemy” under the cover of “self-defence” be more likely rather than less likely.
The thing that would make being against Genocide more likely is Empathy with the hurt of the victims, and not all of those who went through the trauma of the Holocaust will have come out of it with that (for example, trauma also can create Sociopaths, the very opposite of people with high empathy with the suffering of others), plus empathy is a lot harder to transmit to both friends and descendants than anxiety, plus one of the things Racism does is close down empathy towards specific “others” based on their ethnicity (hence the relentless “they are <insert evil thing>” prejudiced messaging against Palestinians and Arabs in Israel, as well as the “human animals” and “vermin” dehumnization of Palestinians, all of which is obvious propaganda to breed Racism).
Mind you, plenty of Holocaust Survivors do have that Empathy and even fight to stop the violence (and even get called anti-semites for it, as the Press did to a Jewish Holocaust Survivor in the UK some years ago because in a Conference For Palestine he compared some of the actions of the government of Israel to those of the Nazis), and I suspect that due to that experience they’re a lot more likely than the average person to be deeply against such extreme violence as a Genocide, it’s just that I don’t think they add up to enough people compared to the population of Israel as a whole, the transmission of the kind of emotional relation to others that makes one be against it down the generations and laterally to people like friends is nowhere as strong as the transmission of the fear and anxiety which can be easilly weaponized to make the violence more likely and what politicians in Israel have from the very start been doing is cultivating the transmission of anxiety and fear, not of empathy.
IN SUMMARY: Holocaust Survivors in Israel were always a small minority and their experience has been very purposefully weaponized by local politicians to spread amongst the majority the irrational fear and anxiety that make Israelis more likely to commit extreme violence against others whilst genuinelly believing it to be “self-defense”, whilst the positive things like “empathy with the pain of victims” had their transmission suppressed or at the very least only spread naturally (and against relentless society-wide Racist messaging meant to reduce empathy) at a rate which is much slower than the rate of spread of fear and anxiety, hence the impact of the existence and presence of Holocaust Survivors on Israeli society probably made this Genocide more likely, not less likely (and I suspect it’s the very opposite of what most Holocaust Survivors would’ve wanted).
PS: Judging by things like Holocaust Survivors who too openly and strongly critize the actions of the government of Israel being called anti-semites, it seems logical to think that the Israeli politicians activelly try to suppress the transmission of empathy, making it even slower than the natural rate of transmission would be.
Zionists are using Jews as human shields. Condemning the Zionist entity and their genocide is NOT antisemitism no matter how many times they claim it is.
What in the actual fuck? Hell no.
I feel like people like this have always been antisemitic and they’re just waiting for an excuse or justification to go mask off. Gross.
Why did they put quotation marks around Arab? It sounds like they’re doubting the people were actually Arab. Looks real gross.
Edit: should really read articles before posting. The quotes are a critique of the study as far as I can tell. The study refers to Palestinians living in Israel as “Arabs”. If the study doesn’t properly identify the individuals it’s researching I have serious doubts about the legitimacy of the results.
My understanding is that Israel has a distinction between Israeli citizens who are ethnically Arab and Palestinians from the Palestinian territories who aren’t citizens and are de facto treated as foreigners.
let’s ask Americans about the 2 million people they have incarcerated domestically next
gang what if the volk are bad actually??
“The volk are bad” is the whole premise behind eugenics and genocide to begin with. It’s how you get to mass media referring to rival ethnicities and neighboring populations as “bug people” and stirring up existential dread of The Mob of Others.
We’ve had an uninterrupted sixty year string of refugees moving to Israel, getting handed parcels of stolen land, meeting the people it was stolen from, and then having the government/media say “THEY WANT TO KILL YOU!” over and over again while they further immiserate the captive native population.
“Obviously, the problem here is that people are inherently awful” seems to miss the deliberately engineered madness machine that is driving otherwise normal, peaceful, happy people into a frenzy of desperation and hate.
I mean, I’m going to go ahead and say it’s a slightly lower number that shouldn’t be in there. That 2 million would include the serial killers.
Probably still a million, though. Jail for weed is dumb.
Israel is full of religious fanatics who would happily kill everyone on this planet. Have you heard of Operation Samson?
It’s the Samson option, they’ve never done it. And MAD has been policy for any number of nations.
Is Israel deep into an ethnic conflict spiral, and fairly devoid of empathy for the other side? Yes. Is it all religious fanatics? No, that’s a minority. Secular Zionism is a thing too.
The Samson option is far worse than mutually assured destruction. Instead of retaliatory strikes against the sole country which launches nukes first, Isreal plans to nuke major cities all around the globe if they are ever nuked. They have already used this threat to coerce other countries into supporting them.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
This is also in there:
I’ve never heard anyone else suggest it would be aimless.
Sure, it would include countries which threaten them directly, but it is not limited to that. As per the quoted section, Israel’s government has already threatened to nuke the USA if we did not continue supplying them with military aid. There is a reason this policy is not just called MAD. It’s something entirely different.
I would interpret that paragraph as a threat to nuke Arab countries (13 times, maybe), which would be bad, and would also have major political and economic fallout for Nixon. Threatening the use of nukes against a non-nuclear country is questionable, but I think it’s also the US policy if invaded.
I had assumed it was just called that for the Jewishness. The story of Samson is pretty MAD-ish, except that I don’t think his captors were warned - killing a bunch of Philistines was the point, because it was the bad old days.
Come to think of it, did/do they even have a way of delivering nukes outside the region?
Here’s another article which contains more quotes from the same book Wikipedia cites:
…substack.com/…/the-samson-option-how-israel-not
Edit regarding your question: Yes, Isreal has multiple delivery options.
Officials confirm that the nation can now launch atomic weapons from land, sea and air.
Hmm, a bit of a suspect source. And I can’t find the primary source of this quote.
It does look like some of their boats and ships have global range, at least. If the Martin van Creveld quote is authentic, that would imply Rome is the edge of their missile range, which would make sense. I’m guessing Iran is just about as far.
They absolutely have the capability. Even without their many aircraft capable of carrying nuclear bombs and fleet of nuclear-missile-carrying submarines, their Jericho III missiles have a range of 11,500 km. From that wiki page:
Regarding the Martin van Creveld quote, check this out.
That one is in the Wikipedia article as well, and is sourced. I can’t find him talking about nuking Europe anywhere else.
It honestly doesn’t pass the sniff test, either. Nobody likes being threatened, and Israel is heavily dependent on the goodwill of the West (or just the US, now that it’s split off). It’s way too easy just to bandy around regional chaos and then play as nice and holy as possible with us.
I only put a portion of the quote in the search text to not exclude variations in punctuation between sentences. I wasn’t pointing to the string of characters in the search bar, but the results it yielded. The full quote is in the search results, including the threat on European capitals.
I’m not sure how you can continue to say this policy doesn’t pass the sniff test. The only context in which I have heard Samson option discussed is in regards to Israel taking out everyone with them. There’s been literally books written on the subject, showing Israel’s intent and capability (see the sources in the Samson option wiki page for the books).
Most of them cut it off right there, actually, including ones that have every motive to include the rest. AZquotes includes it, but they’re an SEO firehose that doesn’t screen anything, and it’s quite possibly sourced from that exact blog.
I don’t think there’s a point in continuing this. The evidence has been put out there. We’ll let the readers decide
they have but to ask and we’ll ship them icbm parts.
I doubt it. They get unconditional support from the US, but it’s never infinite in amount or type.
thats BS. Their patterns of action demonstrate pretty clearly that they dont follow any rules. They just state their intentions and if anyone of any country or military are killed going about their goals, they just shrug. Theyve killed plenty or people from across the world, and emptied out christian enclaves, and they couldnt care less about the human rights of anyone. Its not just palestinians they will kill, its anyone.
They are drunk with US support and they dont have to pretend to care anymore, so they arent. Just like maga republicans. They are angry they had to pretend to be civilized for so long up to now.
Sure, but they also don’t have any incentive to blow up other places. Threatening to wouldn’t help them, nor would actually doing it.
They also haven’t dehumanised the rest of the world to the same degree, even if they see it as an adversary. Like all but the most psychologically divergent humans, Israeli Jews try to be the protagonist of their own story.
Kind of? Zionism started as a secular movement, and although Israel still has a secular majority, we’ve seen a kind of inversion where the religious Zionists have become the most extreme and committed. Don’t get me wrong: Zionism is still dependent on the consent and support of the secular majority, and wouldn’t be able to achieve anything without it, but now it’s largely being pulled further right by the religious branch,
Yes. It’s a lot easier to justify horrors with religion, I guess. They can just say that god told them to, while the secular Zionists have construct a way that ice is hot. A movement away from Zionism was never going to happen in Israel, because people pick a worldview that’s personally convenient. Same goes for the Palestinians and what Hamas is pedaling, although they can’t actually do much about it.
Israel also has an electoral system that’s heavily reliant on coalitions, and religion sees no shortage of schisms. If you need a coalition partner, there’s probably some tiny religious group that can get you that last one or two seats in exchange for support on something only pertaining to them.
Netanyahu was democratically elected.
Yes, and Netanyahu is himself more secular…
Don’t confuse a fascist regime for the population it is presiding over.
Netanyahu’s fascist regime was democratically elected. Just like Nazis in Germany came to power through the democratic system.
And Palestine and Iran isn’t?
Not to the same scale. Israel wrote the book on religious lunacy.
I don’t see Israel declaring that they will destroy Iran or Gaza and genocide every non Jew they can get their hands on.
Israel just launched terrorist attacks on Iran, and has killed a huge part of Gazan population.
Look at actions, not words.
OH NO! Israel launched an attack on a nation that vowed to destroy it and was trying to build a nuke to wipe them out!
GOOD. The Iranian government needs to collapse. I find it weird how many people who supposedly support LGBT+ also support a nation that hangs them.
So you support hamas then?
Israel is a country of rabid religious fanatics bent on the murder of all non-believers. They are the enemy of humanity and all decent folk.
Middle East Eye is a notorious propaganda outlet, especially on this conflict. I would take anything they say with a grain of salt, including their interpretations of polls and surveys. I personally recommend everybody here to actually look at the original source and the same information referenced directly from there. The survey cited in this article is pretty extensive, and I think it’s worth taking a look at:
en.idi.org.il/articles/60357
Sir, this is Lemmy. Get your information hygiene out of there!
…Seriously though, subtle rewording makes a huge difference:
In other words, Jewish respondents believe Israel is making efforts to avoid suffering, not that they approve of the suffering, and the national mood is very low.
Propaganda works.
So do clickbait tabloid headlines.
Sorry bud, the original source doesn’t make Israelis look better.
Israelis think that because they believe the IDF. You literally just read the first paragraph and are acting like the responsible one doing real research.
Exactly.
They believe what they’re told. But the headline makes it seem like they’re cheering on starvation in front of their eyes.
They are.
They’ve been on social media cheering it on since 2023. Civilians/reservists have been forming human chains to block humanitarian aid that WAS allowed to go in. This isn’t a shocking new development, it is what has been explicitly stated, expressed, and demonstrated for multiple years now.
They act like they don’t know, everybody know about the genocide. Extremists are shown on israeli tv channels all the time
And the propaganda can be right there in the survey.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahgjEjJkZks
How can they see all the videos and humsn right reports of israel terrorism and still think that. They simply doing genocide denialism
So exactly what the article states. Jewish Israelis do not believe mass starvation of Palestinians matters.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/8aff8272-ce20-4a1a-8e4b-b8273a38d6ee.jpeg">
That’s not the point of my comment. I’m saying it’s best practice in general to consume and spread information directly from the original source. That way you’re more likely to get the info as is instead of having it be filtered or modified in certain way by a middleman outlet.
idi.org.il is an israeli site. No thanks pal.
It’s the primary source of this post dingus. You’re consuming it either way. If you find it preferable to digest the info through a notoriously narrative driven outlet as a middle man, then that’s your problem
middleeasteye is the primary source of this post. And if you are going to call me names I’ll flag that and have your comments removed.
Complaining about propaganda then post yourself s propagands source. You so weird
It’s the primary source of this post… Lemmy’s media literacy is nonexistent
What horrible pieces of shit.
One reason, maybe not the only one, could be that they’re being told it’s all lies or in any case untrustworthy reports, or hugely exaggerated. I’ve seen many examples of this.
The Palestinians in occupied territory figured it out already. Not that hard.
Also other polls have shown almost half Jewish Israelis support full extermination Palestinians. And more than 82% support ethnically cleansing them.
Source please?
owenjones.news/…/half-of-israelis-support-extermi…
Gaza genocide denials are new holocaust denials.
not even sure if it’s denial at this point, looks like the Israelis are well aware it’s happening and don’t care.
Propaganda still works to this day
Yep. The Nazis were people just like anyone else who gained the consent of the population. We learned nothing.
a lot of the nazi civilians didnt know about the genocide. They just saw a lot of people in camps.
That’s what they claimed, but if you listen to the testimonials from the allied soldiers, they could smell the crematoriums. Many were in denial. But that wasn’t my point.
Remember when the US beat the Nazis? This is exactly like that, but instead imagine we sent the Nazis billions of dollars and weapons to enable them.
And also became Nazis ourselves.
America world police 2025 rather would rather be worrying about what’s happening across the planet than fixing their own dumpster fire.
Fix your shit and get in the back of the line, you Americans only cheapen the cause
They csn fix it but using the billions they give to israel and usr it to help americans
That would have meant voting for the black woman, and Americans won’t do that
banned from the site entirely would be better.
Most of y’all weren’t bothered by the reports of all the bombing, pillaging and starvation the US caused my country, but that’s in the past right? The ancient past known as 1984 but Americans will just say “that want me”
I live with that guilt every day. I hate imperialism to no end, and I hate that I fund it with my taxes.
It wasn’t just your country!
The US is responsible for a shit ton of suffering. It is kind of our thing.
about half say they outright want to kill every palestinian. Half said no to that, but I imagine for some portion of those if a genocide happened without their explicitely supporting it, theyd be thrilled.
Yeah, the problem isn’t just with Netanyahu or his gov. You have an entire society thats mostly corrupt.
Sounds like 4/5 of Israeli are accessories to war crimes charges.