UN votes to recognise enslavement of Africans as 'gravest crime against humanity' (www.bbc.com)
from geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml to world@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 10:18
https://lemmy.ml/post/45035509

The United Nations General Assembly has voted to recognise the enslavement of Africans during the transatlantic slave trade as “the gravest crime against humanity”, a move advocates hope will pave the way for healing and justice.

The resolution - proposed by Ghana - called for this designation, while also urging UN member states to consider apologising for the slave trade and contributing to a reparations fund. It does not mention a specific amount of money.

The proposal was adopted with 123 votes in favour and three against - the United States, Israel and Argentina.

Countries like the UK have long rejected calls to pay reparations, saying today’s institutions cannot be held responsible for past wrongs.

#world

threaded - newest

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 10:47 next collapse

I get it is extremely important to remember how bad the transatlantic slave trade was, but I think reparations after two centuries makes no sense. You cannot track responsibility 10 generations separated, you cannot track beneficiaries in a globalized world. Countries not involved in slave trade got indirect benefits through commerce, countries involved are instead not benefiting today from that historic trade. Slavery was common everywhere in the world for millennia. I find it hard to even begin to quantify a reasonable approach to a reparation framework that would work in the context of all the human tragedies in the last 5 centuries.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 10:56 next collapse

Actually they can easily restitute African countries for the immense damages they were caused.

But restituting the victims of slavery is inconvenient for the empire, while an atrocity like the Holocaust can be abused to fund and raise support for Israel.

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 11:03 collapse

That is easy because the Holocaust was between 1941 and 1945 and reparation were between 1952 and 1953. It is the same government, the same people, the same generation. The atrocity is clearly defined in time and space, and can be somewhat measured. Nonetheless, even in a “clear as day” situation, lot of opposition came to be part of this process, with this being a very difficult agreement to reach. Doing that 200 to 600 years apart, across multiple nation, multiple people, multiple culture, is borderline impossible and would settle anything. You cannot make it just for the hebrews with that reparations, you cannot with slave trade either. Same apply to WW2 reparation, Mongol conquest reparation (sound silly just to think about it), or induced famine in China and the Soviet Union.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 11:08 next collapse

Transatlantic slavery is easily traceable to the countries which committed it and which suffered from it. The time period is irrelevant. In fact Israelis are primarily the Jews which didn’t suffer from the Holocaust because they went to colonize Palestine instead of staying in Germany. So your argument works against you.

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 11:27 collapse

Should today citizen of Portugal (under the 1976 Republic) be accountable for the legal (at the time) actions of the Portuguese Crown? Should the citizen of Benin be accountable for the atrocities committed by Dahomey to secure the slaves from nearby tribes? Are the people of Benin both beneficiary and responsible for that? How much? Should Brazil pay for the action of the Portuguese Crown? Should Italy pay because the Republic of Genoa bankers benefited from the loans and contracts with the Portuguese merchants? How much is an Italian descendent from a Venetian born in today Croatia responsible for the sins of Genoese banker that finances the Portuguese crown to pay the Imbangala people to capture slaves?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 11:29 collapse

Yes they should at least pay some reparations. Now why is Germany sending money to Israel?

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 11:33 collapse

reply to the entire question if you can, and bring a reasonable justification about who and how much should pay to who. We have Italian descendent from Dalmatia, we have Brazilian descendent from Portugal, we have people from Angola descendent from Imbangala, Benin people descendent from Dahomey, that needs to pay how much to other people from Angola and Benin?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 11:53 collapse

Countries in Africa are still suffering from the consequences of Western slavery. The entire countries as a whole, not taking into account the people. The only reason Africa is still underdeveloped is because of Western slavery and colonialism.

(Primarily black) communities in the West could also be given restitution funds to make up their deficiency in socio-economic status caused by past discrimination

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 12:20 next collapse

You are still not saying who should pay. The west? Is Poland, Italy, Germany, Greece, Norway, Finland, Canada, Brazil, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, and tens more supposed to pay for the past government of Britain, France, the US, Denmark, the Netherland, Spain and Portugal? Should also Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Senegal, Gambia, Nigeria, Niger, Chad, Sudan pay for the trans-saharan slave trade?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 12:29 collapse

You are still not saying who should pay. The west?

Yes. Primarily the countries which benefitted from slave labor in the past which is the primary responsible factor for their current socio-economic status.

The trans-saharan slave trade wasn’t a top down institutionalized government instrument and not nearly as bad or prominent as the horrific and institutionalized Western mass slavery of Africans. I recommend you educate yourself a bit on slavery before throwing out random whataboutisms.

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 12:38 next collapse

So, 10 to 13 million people is bad, but 7 to 10 million people is not as bad? Not even 70% as bad? So if we are counting the countries that benefited we should also add Turkey and Saudi Arabia (the ottoman empire) to the list. Great, now how much, and who gets the money? If I am a mixed American with ancestry from both Ireland and West africa, should I get money or should I pay money? Is Mexico paying me? Is Turkey paying me? Which percentage?

we can go on an on. This is just silly…

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 12:50 collapse

Transatlantic slave trade is nothing more than a deflection argument filled with disinformation and little substance. Even the conditions of the slaves were nowhere near comparable. Slaves deported to the Americas were treated as literal cattle. …gale.com/…/african-slavery-vs-trans-atlantic-sla…

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 12:57 next collapse

So you are saying that the main problem finally is the way that the US treated the slaves working in the US. I can live with that. So the US needs to recognize the atrocity committed in the past and rectify currently rooted economic disparity in their society so that they can work to support those in disadvantaged condition. That is easy, solid reasoning, does not depend on tracing century old actions and works about fixing the problem. A more social democratic US would be good for sure.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 14:11 collapse

The treatment and also the scale of the slavery which drained Africa of manpower over a short periode of time and left huge critical gaps in its society which effects echo till this day.

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 13:05 collapse

You’re right. The trans-saharan slaves only had to walk from Africa to the middle east.

So much better.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 13:18 collapse

Is that what the article said?

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:28 collapse

Primarily the countries which benefitted from slave labor in the past which is the primary responsible factor for their current socio-economic status.

So, the Caribbean, North, Central and South America, and Russia? That’s quite different from “the West” you said earlier.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 15:31 collapse

Wait till you discover what the word colonialism means and who ran the countries you mentioned.

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:27 collapse

Western slavery.

What exactly is “Western” slavery, and how does it differ in your view from other forms of slavery?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 15:28 collapse

Read the comments below and find out

compast@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 12:36 collapse

“induced famine in china and soviet union” lmfao, are you fr

tatterdemalion@programming.dev on 26 Mar 14:41 next collapse

I think it would be reasonable to consider reparations for individual descendants of slaves. There are plenty of people alive today that can prove their descendance from a slave.

Reparations to entire countries in Africa seems a bit absurd to me.

eatCasserole@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 14:47 next collapse

You don’t have to look at everything in terms of individual responsibility. We can clearly see that the injustices caused by transatlantic slavery, and imperialism more broadly, are very much still here. I think it would be nice to try to remedy this.

Of course, it’s non-binding, and the countries that should probably be paying reparations just happen to have all abstained (except for the rogue USA of course, voting against) so I don’t expect anything will happen. But it’s a nice idea.

carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 26 Mar 15:30 next collapse

are the descendants of the enslaved people still suffering from it? are the descendants of the enslavers still benefitting from it? yes?

then reparations should be paid.

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 15:36 next collapse

How do you determine who is descended of enslaved and enslaver? How do you identify who is benefitting today for something that happened 500 years ago? How do you deal with people that descend from both enslavers and enslaved? There is a long thread about this. Ultimately it is not possible to do what you are asking. Should a farmer in Turkey pay for the benefit the ottoman empire got from slave trade to a white looking mixed american of west african descent? You realize how stupid that sound?

Jax@sh.itjust.works on 26 Mar 15:48 next collapse

‘If white, then pay reparations’ is their answer

carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 26 Mar 16:35 collapse

the states would be paying those reparations, not the people individually

european states should pay reparations to the nations they colonized and enslaved, and colonial states (the usa, canada…) should pay reparations to their colonized populations.

FenrirIII@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 20:01 collapse

And where do ‘the states’ get their money? Taxes. You’d still be taxing the people to pay for reparations

ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de on 26 Mar 19:37 collapse

It’s been too long, and who exactly are you going to blame or get reparations taken from? Hell; If memory serves it was other black people who were gathering up and selling the black people into the slave trade. What you gonna do? Give $40 a piece to 50,000,000 black people, along with an I’m sorry card?

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 17:26 next collapse

black people live in slums in my colonial country and many of the exploited african nations.

start by letting them access to at least 20th century amenities and dignified work instead of finding every moral excuse not to.

this thread is full of sensitive westerners born on slave trader countries still rich on the spoils (and sometimes still benefiting from it).

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 18:11 collapse

I am a westerner, born in a non slave trader country that never existed before the 1860s. The country before was not a slaver country. The country before that was client state of a slaver country, but just for 20 years! The one before that was not a slaver country. Going event further the country before that was still not a slaver country. Then it was not even a country and still not a slaver one. This until the 1200s when we abolished slavery, so I guess that before then slavery was somewhat ok, but was white people slaves so I do not think that counts.

I think we never became rich on the spoils. We were definitely richer in the 1200s (we were so rich we paid for the slaves to be free!) and for some centuries after that. That was definitely our golden age I would say. Post war recovery after 1960 was also good, but mainly driven by local mechanical industries, not spoils I am afraid.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:18 collapse

I am a westerner, born in a non slave trader country

contradictory so far

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 18:21 collapse

your lack of understanding of history does not constitute contradiction

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:24 collapse

your racism does not constitute understanding of history.

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 18:26 collapse

I have said nothing racists, so which part of history is incorrect?

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:44 collapse

the part where you think black people don’t deserve any kind of help for still being fucked by western racism, with the excuse you can’t keep track of it.

the “you are a white westerner” part was an educated guess based on that opinion.

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 19:05 collapse

Never said black people don’t deserve any kind of help. That is just stupid. What I said is:

  • not all western countries are responsible for trans-atlantic slave trade
  • lot of african slave trade is from non wester countries
  • track enslavers and enslaved across 5 centuries is an impossible task

What I agree is:

  • all countries involved in slavery should recognize the role they had in the centuries before and work to prevent discrimination and exploitation in modern society
  • neocolonialism needs to stop now
  • those countries engaged in neocolonialism needs to provide support to help underdeveloped countries

I see nothing racist in this opinion, but please enlighten me. The only one talking all the time about black and white is actually you

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 19:06 collapse

you didn’t say that but ok.

and the vast majority of modern western countries are very much benefiting from neocolonialism now, which was made possible by racism and their previous domination by traditional colonization.

most western nations (most of those voting to abstain very much included) have to stop exploiting the global south before they can even begin reparations.

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 19:18 collapse

There is no need for racism to enable modern exploitation. Most western countries exploit their own citizens. Neocolonialism is driven by profit maximization, geopolitical realism and capitalism. See Soviet economic imperialism and china belt and road initiative. Race was a moral justification in the past. It is not needed anymore.

shawn1122@sh.itjust.works on 26 Mar 18:32 collapse

I agree there are challenges with economic reparations but I do want to point out that the transatlantic slave trade was different from slavery as practiced throughout human history.

It was more cruel than even slavery practiced in ancient Greece and Rome (civilizations which Western nations like to harken back to).

European colonial powers firmly believed in and propagated a global race based caste system. This itself is a crime against humanity but they put into practice the subjugation of people with darker skin, defining them as less human as justification for their enslavement.

Throughout history many civilizations thought other peoples to be inferior or barbaric. But there has not been a global race based caste system based on complexion as colonial era Europeans practiced it.

Entire fields of false science such as phrenology and eugenics sprung from this dogmatic belief in skin tone defining ones worth. The culmination of this vile ‘purity’ ideology was Nazi Germany and even with the end of that movement, we have not seen the end white supremacist ideology.

This is a very unique problem that still has horrific reverberations to this day. I would not be so quick to absolve European colonial powers and their descendant nation states who still benefit from neocolonialism today. Reparations is a complex issue but I think verbal acknowledgment of accountability and an honest teaching of history would be a start in those nations that have been ongoing beneficiaries of these inhumane institutions.

To summarize, I’ll leave you with quotes representative of the worldview of one of the most revered figures in modern colonial/Western history:

​"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

​"I hate Indians. They are a beastly people with a beastly religion."

​"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror."

​"I think we shall have to take the Chinese in hand and regulate them… I believe that as the civilized nations become more powerful they will get more ruthless, and the time will come when the world will impatiently bear the existence of great barbaric nations who may at any time arm themselves and menace civilized nations."

Winston Churchill

encelado748@feddit.org on 26 Mar 18:57 collapse

While I agree in part with the sentiment, I think is totally unfair to consider ancient slavery in Greece or Rome as less cruel. It was not less cruel depending on the slave in question. Slaves in mines and agricultural estates were in worse conditions then anything in American south. But if you were an educated slave then your life was indeed better. That also means that was common for slaves in ancient Rome to be able to buy freedom. Slavery was everywhere in society, so the comparison is really hard to make.

There is indeed a racial component in colonial slavery that was not present in ancient Roman slavery. A slave could be from Germany or from Syria and there was no difference in treatment.

I would say that both late trans-atlantic slavery and nazism share a philosophical root in the eugenetic movement, but both grew in parallel with different motives: in one case a justification for economic exploitation, in the other an ideological tool to enforce unity in nationalism.

The transatlantic slave trade started before the concept of race and the eugenetic movement. During the 15th century the justification was more routed in religion and the idea of having prisoner of war being better then to kill the enemy. Still and excuse for economic exploitation, but maybe more akin to what the greeks and romans were doing.

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 11:31 next collapse

Here’s the biggest problem with reparations…

Most slaves were captured and then sold by other africans from competing kingdoms or tribes, to the europeans who would then take them across the atlantic.

Giving reparations to current africans would actually be like rewarding the original slavers.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 11:52 next collapse

This is just a complete lie what the hell

SculptusPoe@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 12:21 next collapse

It’s the truth. Sorry? Do you think the slave traders were parking outside Africa, ranging across the continent, and grabbing people with big nets?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 12:27 next collapse

They were armed and trained by the West and acted as Western mercenaries. This is like blaming neo-colonialism on the countries suffering from it because the West installed a puppet government there.

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:07 collapse

They were armed and trained by the West and acted as Western mercenaries. This is like blaming neo-colonialism on the countries suffering from it because the West installed a puppet government there.

Why are you using Cold War propaganda terms to describe something that happened before Marx was even born?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 15:08 collapse

www.theguardian.com/…/epiloguetothedebateonslav

The single most important - and also, alas, the most overlooked - causative factor is the gun. Once African tribes that formerly fought with bows and arrows or spears were introduced to the devastating nature of the musket, the cannon and the Gatling, all bets were off, so to speak.

Apart from directly hiring their own mercenary armies to go into the interior of Africa to kidnap slaves and pressgang them into the purpose-built slave forts, the European slavers would go to Tribe A and say to its leaders: “Look, we only came here to buy your gold, as we’ve been doing for years. But Tribe B has sent emissaries to us, asking us to sell guns to it. Now, we know that you are their immediate target, having fought them in terrible wars not so long ago. Because of our friendship for you, we have told them we have no guns. For now.”

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:13 collapse

That has nothing to do with my comment. I’m talking about your use of the word “the West” everywhere. You’re confusing entire centuries. This is back when Russia was a monarchist empire too, for example.

Why?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 15:16 collapse

Why are you spreading racist propaganda over the entire thread to excuse Western slavery? What does the article I linked start with?

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:26 collapse

Can you please link to the “racist propaganda” you think I’m spreading?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 15:32 collapse

Here you go. Blocked now have fun doing racist trolling elsewhere. lemmy.ml/post/45035509/24775207

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 17:39 collapse

no, it’s even more perverse. they were the ones creating the economical incentive.

MasterNerd@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 12:22 next collapse

I don’t understand why people just knee-jerk reply like this without actually researching what they’re denying. It’s a pretty well-known fact that most of the slaves in the Atlantic slave trade came from African warlords and slavers (or at least I thought it was). I don’t thin that’s a particularly strong argument against reparations though.

Educate yourself

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 12:27 collapse

They were armed and trained by the West and acted as Western mercenaries. This is like blaming neo-colonialism on the countries suffering from it because the West installed a puppet government there.

MasterNerd@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 13:02 next collapse

“My source is I made it the fuck up” - you

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 14:11 collapse

www.theguardian.com/…/epiloguetothedebateonslav

The single most important - and also, alas, the most overlooked - causative factor is the gun. Once African tribes that formerly fought with bows and arrows or spears were introduced to the devastating nature of the musket, the cannon and the Gatling, all bets were off, so to speak.

Apart from directly hiring their own mercenary armies to go into the interior of Africa to kidnap slaves and pressgang them into the purpose-built slave forts, the European slavers would go to Tribe A and say to its leaders: “Look, we only came here to buy your gold, as we’ve been doing for years. But Tribe B has sent emissaries to us, asking us to sell guns to it. Now, we know that you are their immediate target, having fought them in terrible wars not so long ago. Because of our friendship for you, we have told them we have no guns. For now.”

MasterNerd@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 19:03 collapse

The only part of your original statement that is accurate according to your article was that they were armed by the Europeans. People actually by the European-trained raiders making up a small part of the total slave exports as stated in your provided article.

Europeans slavers being manipulative doesn’t excuse the actions of those who sold them slaves, all it means is that human beings are all capable of great evil. It kind if reminds me of blockbusting in the US during the 20th century. Just because the real estate agents were playing on the racist fears of the white homeowners doesn’t excuse white flight.

I do kind of take issue with the original commentor trying to handwave reparations because of this fact, but we don’t need to try and whitewash (yeah I know) the actions of anyone involved.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 20:02 collapse

The slavery was only possible because they were armed and agitated by the Europeans. Get out of here with your filthy victim blaming revisionism

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:05 collapse

“the West” as a concept didn’t exist in the 17th century.

crystalmerchant@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 12:30 collapse

Which part? That Africans captured other Africans? Definitely not a lie… Europeans didn’t go to the interior. They showed up at the western coast, anchored offshore, and bought captives from mercenaries or tribal warlords who had brought conquered Africans from the interior to the coast specifically because there was a customer (horrible I know) to buy them – the European slavers waiting in their ships. Port towns grew wealthy and powerful as the “portal” to African slaves.

Slave Ship is a good (and brutally dark) book about this.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 12:34 collapse

They did show up at the shores and took slaves. Then they found out they could sell guns and arm mercenaries to do it for them for even more effective slavery. And they killed anyone who resisted them.

Just because they armed and hired middle-men to do the dirty work on the shores (and only because it was cheaper for them to do this) doesn’t absolve them from being the cause these people were transported into slavery.

crystalmerchant@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 12:42 next collapse

Well you’re conflating “how it happened” with “who’s to blame”.

Obviously the European slave trade was the prime mover for regional African warlords capturing would-be-slaves in the interior and of course this doesn’t absolve the European slavers of anything lol

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 12:43 collapse

Next you’re gonna argue slavery only started in Africa when the first europeans started doing it, completely ignoring the centuries of arab slave trade before that, and centuries after europeans outlawed it, and which likely enslaved as many people.

The truth is, it was an awful thing with a lot of different parties involved for different reasons, throughout a very long period.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 12:53 collapse

Slavery had always existed. Institutionalized slavery was an exclusively European invention. Frightening how little people know about it and how much they’re willing to defend it …gale.com/…/african-slavery-vs-trans-atlantic-sla…

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 12:59 next collapse

How convenient you chose to ignore the exact paragraph from that link that touched very lightly on what I said:

“In stark contrast, the trans-Saharan slave trade introduced chattel slavery where enslaved individuals were the property of their enslavers with no rights and their status was inherited by their offspring. This system stripped individuals of any agency and autonomy which reduced them to mere commodities.”

Arabs enslaved millions for a much longer period of time (all the way up to the late 20th century), raped the women, neutered the men, literally denying milions of a future generation from existing.

But I don’t see anyone asking them for compensations.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 13:22 collapse

Strange you stopped reading there.

Indigenous African slavery was typically localised whereas the trans-Atlantic slave trade functioned on a more industrial scale by forcibly transporting millions of Africans to the Americas to meet labour demands of plantation economies.

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 17:59 collapse

What is strange is how you wanted to try to pass the narrative that the europeans were the first to do chattel slavery, when they absolutely weren’t, and also were the ones to not only outlaw it, but enforce the outlaw.

But keep trying to change history

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:16 collapse

Name another

You’re literally the PragerU video youtu.be/gg1nBp8Rits

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 18:31 collapse

And which part of what I said is false?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 20:03 collapse

Blocked

ceiphas@feddit.org on 26 Mar 14:27 collapse

You means the egyptians didnt have institutionalized slaving? Really?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 14:49 collapse

Not in the same way. Even ancient Egypt considered slaves human and they had some rights, whereas trans-atlantic slavery fully reduced slaves to the level of animals. Egypt also didn’t start invasions primarily to capture slaves and use them on their plantations.

While you’re technically correct, trans-atlantic slavery had countries literally running their economies on slaves which is what I meant.

ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net on 26 Mar 13:01 next collapse

I would say the biggest problem right now would be finding African countries that can be trusted with using this money to actually improve lives of their citizens.

www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2024

Some are only fairly corrupt. Most are very corrupt.

JackbyDev@programming.dev on 26 Mar 18:13 next collapse

Who generated the demand?

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 18:33 collapse

That’s an entirely different point. But they were already slavers before the europeans increased demand.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 26 Mar 18:38 collapse

I think this might miss the point of reparations

I thought the point of reparations is not to “pay off” a historical wrong, but instead is meant to help offset the generational of disadvantage caused by slavery and racism to those who suffer from that legacy today

we need all kinds of changes to end cycles of poverty and generational trauma, and reparations is just one tool among many to help with that - but it’s more about fixing the broken thing now than about absolving guilt

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 18:42 collapse

Well, sure. But a lot of developed nations already have a lot of programs aimed at doing that.

Also, as someone has said somewhere in this discussion, who exactly would receive reparations? It’s not exactly an easy thing to ascertain.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 26 Mar 18:47 collapse

yes, I do think reparations has many problems with it - ideally it would be a matter of transitioning wealth accumulated through slavery from the people who benefited from slavery to the people who suffered under slavery. We are generations away on both sides, but it’s not like the effects haven’t certainly enriched some while hurting others even today.

Usually when I hear about reparations, the idea is to use tax money to do it, but at that point a lot of the people paying the taxes for reparations are also the victims of generations of slavery, so … I dunno, doesn’t feel like the most targeted or ethical approach.

And yes, who do we decide who receives reparations? Is it just for slavery, or are we going to recognize the way slavery and racism are intertwined and related?

What about reparations for other racist choices, like segregating Black communities and building interstates through their communities, polluting and robbing those communities of health, wealth, etc.?

Again, reparations is just one tool. I’m not sure you can really argue that racism has been properly dealt with or solved, or that reparations has no place in a program of racial and social justice, even if we can pick out logistical difficulties.

Further, why does it feel like you are against this project of justice, rather than for it?

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 19:07 collapse

I’m against reparations because, as you said, it would be unfair on both sides.

The people that would be taxed (the majority) probably never benefitted from it, at least not directly. I can give you an example. On my father’s side we made a family tree reaching all the way to the 17th century, and there were no rich landowners or noblemen. It’s highly unlikely they owned slaves. Should my family pay for reparations?

Now, if you can accurately trace slave owning people and their descendants are still wealthy, then by all means…

What I’m saying is it can’t be a blanket measure.

Also, if we europeans must pay, then the arabs better pay up as well.

And then you have the question of who receives the money. Africa is rife with corruption. I wouldn’t want the money to go to some corrupt government official. But how would you trace the exact people or families who should receive the money? What if the family who was enslaved mixed with the family/tribe/kingdom of the slavers? Then what?

I’m absolutely for helping Africa, but it just can’t be this fantasy notion of reparations because it’s not feasible.

dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 26 Mar 19:39 collapse

Hm, my point wasn’t that reparations is unfair to both sides, but that there are better and worse ways to go about it.

Regardless, I think measures that aim to fix economic inequality and wealth distribution, and particularly efforts that are rooted in morally defensible arguments about repairing the harms caused by slavery and racism are noble and worthwhile. I’m even happy for imperfect versions of this where the US government pays reparations using tax money - it’s a much better use of my tax money (whether I personally benefited from slavery or not) than a lot of the villainous stuff the US currently does with my tax money.

Besides, the positive outcomes are alone worthwhile.

Typically I think of reparations as being sent to those who can show their lineage goes back to African slaves in the US, in which case it’s usually African-Americans who are the primary beneficiaries of reparations, not bureaucrats in Africa.

The way you are thinking about reparations makes me think you are not very keen on projects of social justice in general. Maybe you’re just jaded or cynical about the possibility for justice to be handled fairly, but I think we should be motivated to supporting and finding paths forward that help people whether they are perfect or not, and I just don’t get that vibe from you.

black_flag@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 26 Mar 11:38 next collapse

today’s institutions cannot be held responsible for past wrongs.

It’s not just that they don’t want to face the consequences of benefiting from apartheid. They want to continue benefiting from it.

BrilliantantTurd4361@sh.itjust.works on 26 Mar 11:52 collapse

Lots of americans would be very upset with you right now if they could read.

dan1101@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 12:09 next collapse

Americans fought a war over slavery, so obviously they very much weren’t all ok with it. Also, look at stats of where most slaves went. Brasil had the most, USA wasn’t in the top 5. Any number of slaves is too much though.

BrilliantantTurd4361@sh.itjust.works on 26 Mar 12:15 next collapse

I said lots not all

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 12:18 next collapse

My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy Slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, […] What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save this Union - Abraham Lincoln

GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 12:39 collapse

So the president felt more responsibility to his nation than to the slaves, at a time where slavery was much less frowned upon than today. I have a hard time retroactively faulting him for that. If he did the right thing for the wrong reasons, is it not still the right thing to do?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 13:39 collapse

The war was not fought over slavery. That was only a convenient add-on. The US south was the primary party benefiting from slavery and the north wasn’t. Therefore it was easy for the North to tack that on the list.

While I don’t see it as a bad thing, it was certainly not the primary motivator or reason the civil war was fought. Also it took quite a while after the civil war to actually abolish slavery and even now there are have things like forced prison labor which is primarily done by black men whose neighborhoods are overpoliced.

belastend@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 26 Mar 15:56 collapse

It was not a primary factor for the north. For the south, slavery was the single most important issue for fighting this war.

black_flag@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 26 Mar 15:44 collapse

Lmao barely and then went back on it during “reconstruction”

carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 26 Mar 16:39 collapse

oh a lot of americans on lemmy are already very upset lmao

compast@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 12:47 next collapse

Westerners dont regret it. They are still looting the 3rd world and waging war on our ground. We need to unite against them

Lydon_Feen@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 13:00 next collapse

That’s not racist at all

compast@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 13:19 collapse

?

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:00 collapse

The entire West?

Everywhere from Ireland to Finland to Japan, they’re all looting the 3rd world and waging war?

Are you sure that’s not a bit of propaganda?

compast@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 15:04 next collapse

Yes they are and even if they arent they are getting indirect benefit from it.

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:08 collapse

Can you be more specific? How is Ireland looting the 3rd world and waging war, or indirectly benefiting from it?

compast@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 15:22 next collapse

Why too specific for ireland

ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net on 26 Mar 15:48 collapse

Same as any other western country Ireland is investing in corporations exploiting developing countries (extracting resources and exploiting workers) while importing cheap goods from there. The entire west is basically outsourcing pollution and terrible working conditions to developing countries so they can consume most of the Earth’s resources.

emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works on 26 Mar 15:09 collapse

I think Ireland at least should be excluded; they were colonised by the British.

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:11 collapse

Okay, and Finland?

compast@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 15:25 next collapse

they exploit workers in 3rd world where theyve built factories to fund pensions at home. They also passively support israel and supported several US imperialist wars in west asia

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 17:36 next collapse

let’s just say you don’t want finland to visit your country for “business”

emergencyfood@sh.itjust.works on 26 Mar 17:47 collapse

Nazi sidekicks, but also Linux and Nokia, so I don’t know.

Quilotoa@lemmy.ca on 26 Mar 12:51 next collapse

Argentina, United States, and Isreal voted against.

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:03 next collapse

and 52 abstentions, including the UK and EU member states.

carotte@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 26 Mar 15:35 collapse

canada, australia and new zealand also abstained

SuspiciousCatThing@pawb.social on 26 Mar 15:07 collapse

Them: “Hold my beer.”

yucandu@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 15:04 next collapse

Things always get better when you measure crimes against humanity against other crimes against humanity.

[deleted] on 26 Mar 15:32 next collapse
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ExLisper@lemmy.curiana.net on 26 Mar 15:36 collapse

Are we also going to put all the descendants of slave owners in positions they would be in if they didn’t own slaves?

BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today on 26 Mar 16:31 next collapse

Not going to dispute this other than to say that it’s “the gravest crime against humanity in MODERN TIMES.”

In past times, enslaving the populations of entire conquered nations or villages was common. Bringing slaves back to Rome was a regular part of an Army’s return. Enslaving one’s neighbors has been extremely common across the globe, since the beginning of humanity.

Beyond slavery, there have been marauders like the Huns or the Khans, who would attack a city, and kill every single living thing, and then move on the the next one.

Unfortunately, there are lots of candidates for the award.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 17:46 next collapse

Trans-atlantic slavery was worse because it maximally exploited the humans as cattle. A quick death is much more convient than a lifetime of suffering.

BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today on 26 Mar 18:25 collapse

I’m not going to argue which is worse, slavery or watching centuries of your entire culture destroyed in a day, along with every person in your life, before dying yourself. There are no winners in that argument.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:00 collapse

rome wasn’t even physically capable of enslaving that many people as the african slave trade did.

BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today on 26 Mar 18:19 collapse

Not just Rome, but Egypt, and every other nation, or whatever they were back then.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:21 collapse

“they did it so we can too” is not the flex you think it is.

BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today on 26 Mar 18:34 collapse

That’s not what I was saying, and you damn well know it. I mentioned Rome, and you seized on that to make an illegitimate point, which I countered that Rome wasn’t the only civilization participating in slavery, and you took that as an opportunity to accuse me of being soft on slavery, which is really, really stupid.

Highly disengenuous.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:42 collapse

that’s exactly the point you are making though.

“we can’t help africa because the romans did it too! and then everyone will want restitution!”

CluckN@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 17:28 next collapse

Glad the UN is focusing on current issues.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 17:59 collapse

Indeed. The effects of trans-atlantic slavery are felt to this day.

umbrella@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 17:31 next collapse

ITT: tons of softball racism by the people in the nations that voted no or abstained.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 17:58 collapse

Notably of Germans showing up too believing the trans-Saharan slaven trade was worse. Guess their curriculum included a lot of anti-Arab propaganda to go along with the Zionism brainwashing

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 18:00 next collapse

Hold up. I’m all fine with apologising for slavery if one participated in it… But does this include everyone who participated, or is this another appearences type thing that completely ignores the majority of African slaves were bought from African slave markets run by various West-Coast African kingdoms?

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 18:14 next collapse

How many people are going to come in here with the same stupid racist take this is getting ridiculous

www.theguardian.com/…/epiloguetothedebateonslav

The single most important - and also, alas, the most overlooked - causative factor is the gun. Once African tribes that formerly fought with bows and arrows or spears were introduced to the devastating nature of the musket, the cannon and the Gatling, all bets were off, so to speak.

Apart from directly hiring their own mercenary armies to go into the interior of Africa to kidnap slaves and pressgang them into the purpose-built slave forts, the European slavers would go to Tribe A and say to its leaders: “Look, we only came here to buy your gold, as we’ve been doing for years. But Tribe B has sent emissaries to us, asking us to sell guns to it. Now, we know that you are their immediate target, having fought them in terrible wars not so long ago. Because of our friendship for you, we have told them we have no guns. For now.”

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 19:56 collapse

History isn’t racism. Slavery was everywhere.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 19:59 collapse

Nice way to not address the facts you are presented with.

entropiclyclaude@lemmy.wtf on 26 Mar 18:37 collapse

Dear MAGA Nazi loser virgin - kindly go fuck and then kill yourself.

Tattorack@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 19:57 collapse

I’m not American. And I’m not dying for anyone who can’t be bothered to learn history.

melfie@lemmy.zip on 26 Mar 18:35 next collapse

The equivalent of the Epstein class has committed horrid human rights violations throughout history for their own profit and pleasure. Mainly the rich owned slaves, but taxpayers are expected to foot the bill for reparations? It would make more sense if the current human rights violators like billionaire Zionists paid the reparations for both past and current crimes against humanity.

locahosr443@lemmy.world on 26 Mar 19:06 next collapse

Gravest crime so far

hansolo@lemmy.today on 26 Mar 19:36 collapse

Somewhat a bold move for Ghana. Only a few years ago a few of their MPs were terrified of highlighting anything to do with either the Trans-Saharan or Trans-Atlantic slave trade because of the heavy involvement from some local ethnic groups in capturing, transporting, and selling slaves. Which is not honestly actuate considering the lies and economic pressure from the Europeans. Probably just turned the corner after their Year of The Return stuff was so successful.

geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml on 26 Mar 20:01 collapse

I wonder why a colonized country still suffering from neo-colonialism didn’t want to accuse their colonizers.