Religion is the sole reason why Israel even exists and why Muslims hate the Jews.
livus@kbin.social
on 13 Mar 2024 13:59
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I don't think so. Religion and ethnicity are convenient pretexts for stealing resources from one another or enslaving another culture for material benefit.
Go right back to the time of the Crusades, in the Rhineland massacres Christians were killing Jewish people and looting their homes. Someone always stands to gain.
Go right back to the time of the Crusades, in the Rhineland massacres Christians were killing Jewish people and looting their homes.
Around the year 800, many Saxons were killed, tortured or forcibly baptised on the orders of Charlemagne, which German paganism could hardly cope with. Every religion has its violent phase.
Sure. From memory the only one I've noticed not having violence is Jainism.
But I don't think religion causes the violence. I think it's a useful tool to manipulate people into violence. What is happening in Israel/Palestine is about land and arms deals and power elites using wars to cement their political power.
From the very start, the conflict was about which religion should rule the area. If it was about resources, they could hardly have picked a worse place
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
on 13 Mar 2024 18:14
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From the very start, the conflict was about which religion should rule the area.
What? If we’re really talking about “the very start”, then you couldn’t be more wrong. The first real diaspora of Jews being pushed out of Israel was started by the Romans, who famously didn’t care what religion you were so long as you paid unto Caesar that which is Caesars.
they could hardly have picked a worse place
I’m guessing you think the entirety of the Levant is one big sand dune or something? It’s literally known as the fertile crescent dude, and in modernity it’s strategically located near some of the largest energy reserves on the planet.
Yeah if it wasn’t clear I’m talking about the modern state of Israel
TranscendentalEmpire@lemm.ee
on 13 Mar 2024 20:02
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Well, that doesn’t really work either. Palestinians and Jews cohabitated the land for years before any kind of conflict occurred, and the conflict that led to Israel being recognized as a nation state began over a land dispute between neighbors.
Religion has been used to fan the flames, but it wasn’t the initial reason for the conflict. The idea that Islam is some kind of war like religion of intolerance is a modern notion. It can be traced to the spread of a particularly militant version of Sunni Islam as a response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Land use tensions are not uncommon in areas where the resources are limited.
There's no point in going back hundreds of years on this. The reality on the ground is that these people are there because their ancestors had some connection to that part of the Fertile Crescent.
But the reason they are being urged to fight is the usual colonial stuff about land use and political control.
That’s an incredibly reductive oversimplification. The modern state of Israel exists due to the political Zionist movement which began in the 19th C and the sympathy for the Jewish people following Nazi Germany’s eugenicist attempt to wipe them out.
A couple of millennia before that, you had the conflicts of the competing tribes and civilizations in the Fertile Crescent, which resulted in the Jewish diaspora.
Religion has typically been weaponized to justify one group of people taking control of resources and land from another, but it has rarely been the root cause per se.
I’d add that the original zionist movement consisted of jews living in the Ottoman empire, and the ‘agreement’ to give them a slice of it was taken by the Allied powers towards the end of the first world war.
NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
on 13 Mar 2024 14:56
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No? Muslims hate Jews because Zionists have been trying and succeeding in taking their homes for a hundred years. The Islamic position is and has always been "Jews hate you and will try to bring you down but no war crimes because they're people of the book".
ChocoboRocket@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 13:17
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I originally typed ‘Arguably the worst thing we’ve done’ but the more I think on it, humans are generally terrible.
If it wasn’t religion, it’d be racism, sexisim, geography based hate, abilisim, left handedness, phrenology, etc etc etc. Religion is just another lubricant to placate docile individuals, and justify the actions of hate focused individuals
I’m certain we could all live together in peace, but we’re so tribalistic that the second anyone says their group is better than X because Y the majority of the population seems to lap it up at nearly any expense.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 13:24
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Zionists are as Jewish as the Nazis were Christian.
cooljacob204@kbin.social
on 13 Mar 2024 14:48
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That's not really true lol.
Would you say that Hamas is as Muslim as Nazis were Christian?
Both groups are doing terrible shit in the name of their religion.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 14:54
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ISIS is as Muslim as the Nazi’s were Christian.
Hamas is more comparable to the Jews fighting back against the Nazi’s in the Warsaw Ghetto.
cooljacob204@kbin.social
on 13 Mar 2024 19:36
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Yikes didn't realize breaking a ceasefire to rape, pillage and kill a lot of civilians, including entire family and babies (one through being baked alive) on their holy day was comparable to that.
I feel like this is why the left struggle so hard to rally support. When they unironically call Hamas a freedom fighter group. Literally anyone is free to read up on the group. They are a terrorist group through and through.
And yes religion had a huge influence on them. Just like they do on Israelis.
They, are Muslim. ISIS is Muslim. Israel is a Jewish state ran by Jews. It's religious crap causing this entire conflict. Some may be more extreme then others but let's not pretend religion has 0 to do with this conflict.
Israel was formed because Jews were persecuted for being Jewish. They chose Israel for religious and historical reasons.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 19:56
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Man so hardstuck on Hasbara he’s still repeating the baby in oven claim debunked multiple months ago
cooljacob204@kbin.social
on 13 Mar 2024 21:13
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Whatever man you can keep defending a terrorist organization.
And it was not debunked. And after some googling not really proven to be true either. Just a dead Israeli baby found with possible oven burn marks.
But there are plenty of other instances on they day of babies being slaughtered that we do know exists and other fucked up inhumane shit.
And people like you are the worst. Your complete denial of Hamas atrocities forced people like me to be backed into a corner appearing to defend Israel, when I don't really want to be defending them either.
NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth
on 15 Mar 2024 14:02
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Maybe don’t use Israeli propaganda points?
Fuck hummus and fuck Israel
emax_gomax@lemmy.world
on 14 Mar 2024 00:04
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I realise there’s a thin line between freedom fighters and terrorists but hamas are very clearly the latter given they only seem to inflame tensions and actively profit from the ongoing conflict. Israel (or at least the current Israeli government) are far right borderline fascists committing an active genocide out of some hysterical need to prevent all future incursions from hamas at the detriment of anyone living in the area. The Palestinian people as always remain ongoing victims to the ensuing whims of these two powers.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 14 Mar 2024 07:34
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It is irrelevant. In the West Bank there is no Hamas and Palestinians still get brutally massacared by israel.
The reason it says one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter is not because freedom fighters use the nicest ways to acquire their freedom. And Hamas’ goal clearly isn’t to exterminate Jewish people worldwide. Unlike groups such as ISIS or israel, Hamas is not interested in expanding their Lebensraum to other countries.
emax_gomax@lemmy.world
on 14 Mar 2024 09:23
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Weird point. Your previous comment very clearly equates hamas with Jewish resistance to nazis which I denied because hamas cares more about exterminating Jews than freeing Palestinians. Also somehow being a terrorist but not trying to spread terrorism is somehow more acceptable to you? My point was hamas are not freedom fighters because their actively profiting from the fight and have a vested interest in continuing it, not at an eventual victory or peaceful resolution.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 14 Mar 2024 10:25
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Hamas has given a deal for a ceasefire on day one.
Hamas is still offering deals for a permanent ceasefire.
Hamas is looking for a peaceful resolution. That is not an opinion. That is a fact.
Israel is not looking for a peaceful resolution because they are Nazis that want to expand their Lebensraum.
emax_gomax@lemmy.world
on 14 Mar 2024 18:09
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Day one after they violated the last cease fire to attack a bunch of festival goers? Hamas is looking for time to plan the next attack. Pretending otherwise is just ignoring history. Israel is full on genocide mode atm but you don’t seriously think hamas want a ceasefire so they can de-escalate the conflict and eventually open the door to more diplomacy to eventually reach a 2 state solution that avoids any ongoing suffering. Its easy to ask for peace after you stab someone in the chest. It’s hard not to stab them to begin with and seek a peaceful and amicable resolution to existing hostilities.
Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
on 14 Mar 2024 18:53
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What ceasefire israel bombed Gaza two weeks before October 7. For three days straight.
The last ceasefire was broken by israel by the way.
Aceticon@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 16:37
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Hamas is an Insurgency Movement against a foreign invader, and has nothing to do with religion except in the Propaganda discourse of that very same foreign invader - Israel - which being deeply racist and commiting their murders mainly along etnic lines, uses racism in the West against Muslims to try and garner public support for their mass murder of Palestinians (not even Hamas, Palestinians) and has for a long time also used racism in the West to get support for themselves (the “unwavering support [of] the Jewish Nation” - emphasy mine - by Germany is a perfect example of that leveraging of racist thinking and race-related discrimination in a Western nation to obtain such levels of priviledged treatment that even Genocide is excused).
Outside the Israeli Propaganda, Hamas are as much related to religion as the Résistance Française was.
PS: This doesn’t mean I agree with some of Hamas’ methods, by the way. However, that doesn’t change the reality that their entire reason to be is that of an Insurgent Movement.
Pifpafpouf@lemmy.ml
on 13 Mar 2024 18:20
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Hamas […] has nothing to do with religion
From Wikipedia:
Hamas, an acronym of its official name, Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Arabic: حركة المقاومة الإسلامية, romanized: Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamah al-ʾIslāmiyyah, lit. ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’)
Aceticon@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 18:32
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Right, and the NAZI party was the National-Socialist Party Of The German Worker (whilst being anti-Socialist) and the Democratic Republic Of Korea is the northern one and a dictatorship, just to name two big examples of the name meaning nothing at all.
Please point to any source (not obviously islamic propaganda) of Hamas not being an islamic organization. I’m not saying it’s what makes them the bad guys, just that it’s dishonest to say they have “nothing to do with religion”
Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip
on 04 Apr 2024 02:23
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cooljacob204@kbin.social
on 13 Mar 2024 19:46
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Let's not kid ourselves. From Israel being created, to all the two state solutions falling through, to all the terrorists attacks and assassinations that have happened was fueled by religion.
Religion created the deep divide between these two groups and caused the modern day situation.
W_oOo_ke_3333@lemmy.today
on 13 Mar 2024 13:47
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It was a good idea for the rich
turkishdelight@lemmy.ml
on 13 Mar 2024 14:53
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Some religions are worse than others. This particular religions sees everyone else as Goy: something akin to slaves or animals.
fustigation769curtain@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 14:55
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Religious nationalism is even worse.
mightyfoolish@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 19:48
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This isn’t religious. A bunch of trolls/liars came from Russia and Germany and said their ancestors left this land in the BC era.
Edit: These people also claim that the Palestinians are land Interlopers who came from some undisclosed part of Arabia.
If there wasn’t a religion in play, people would just come up with different pretext.
ModernRisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 13 Mar 2024 13:21
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“The soldiers stood watching, and after the settler attack ended, the soldiers began to search houses across the village, raiding several houses and taking shifts throughout the night and then left at 3:00 in the morning", they added”
What did their prime minster say - The most moral military in the world.
Yeah right… and the World “leaders” are just standing there staring at the shit that’s been happening.
turkishdelight@lemmy.ml
on 13 Mar 2024 14:52
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Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people, steal their land, destroy their homes, and build Jewish settlements there.
They have been doing this for morethan 70 years.
mightyfoolish@lemmy.world
on 13 Mar 2024 19:47
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Last Ramadan they literally went around blowing up cars. The one before, I believe they were putting concrete mix into the well water (they actually did this but I can’t remember if this was an Israeli Ramadan tradition).
threaded - newest
Religion was a bad idea.
Religion has nothing to do with this. Its lebensraum and racism
Religion is the sole reason why Israel even exists and why Muslims hate the Jews.
I don't think so. Religion and ethnicity are convenient pretexts for stealing resources from one another or enslaving another culture for material benefit.
Go right back to the time of the Crusades, in the Rhineland massacres Christians were killing Jewish people and looting their homes. Someone always stands to gain.
Around the year 800, many Saxons were killed, tortured or forcibly baptised on the orders of Charlemagne, which German paganism could hardly cope with. Every religion has its violent phase.
Sure. From memory the only one I've noticed not having violence is Jainism.
But I don't think religion causes the violence. I think it's a useful tool to manipulate people into violence. What is happening in Israel/Palestine is about land and arms deals and power elites using wars to cement their political power.
From the very start, the conflict was about which religion should rule the area. If it was about resources, they could hardly have picked a worse place
What? If we’re really talking about “the very start”, then you couldn’t be more wrong. The first real diaspora of Jews being pushed out of Israel was started by the Romans, who famously didn’t care what religion you were so long as you paid unto Caesar that which is Caesars.
I’m guessing you think the entirety of the Levant is one big sand dune or something? It’s literally known as the fertile crescent dude, and in modernity it’s strategically located near some of the largest energy reserves on the planet.
Yeah if it wasn’t clear I’m talking about the modern state of Israel
Well, that doesn’t really work either. Palestinians and Jews cohabitated the land for years before any kind of conflict occurred, and the conflict that led to Israel being recognized as a nation state began over a land dispute between neighbors.
Religion has been used to fan the flames, but it wasn’t the initial reason for the conflict. The idea that Islam is some kind of war like religion of intolerance is a modern notion. It can be traced to the spread of a particularly militant version of Sunni Islam as a response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Well, imo to state that the conflict is not about religion is like claiming the US civil war wasn’t about slavery
The Arab Palestinian force that fought the zionists called themselves the ‘Army of the Holy War’. Surely that was free from any religious reasoning
Land use tensions are not uncommon in areas where the resources are limited.
There's no point in going back hundreds of years on this. The reality on the ground is that these people are there because their ancestors had some connection to that part of the Fertile Crescent.
But the reason they are being urged to fight is the usual colonial stuff about land use and political control.
That’s an incredibly reductive oversimplification. The modern state of Israel exists due to the political Zionist movement which began in the 19th C and the sympathy for the Jewish people following Nazi Germany’s eugenicist attempt to wipe them out.
A couple of millennia before that, you had the conflicts of the competing tribes and civilizations in the Fertile Crescent, which resulted in the Jewish diaspora.
Religion has typically been weaponized to justify one group of people taking control of resources and land from another, but it has rarely been the root cause per se.
I’d add that the original zionist movement consisted of jews living in the Ottoman empire, and the ‘agreement’ to give them a slice of it was taken by the Allied powers towards the end of the first world war.
No? Muslims hate Jews because Zionists have been trying and succeeding in taking their homes for a hundred years. The Islamic position is and has always been "Jews hate you and will try to bring you down but no war crimes because they're people of the book".
Try harder Hasbara
Zionism moment
I originally typed ‘Arguably the worst thing we’ve done’ but the more I think on it, humans are generally terrible.
If it wasn’t religion, it’d be racism, sexisim, geography based hate, abilisim, left handedness, phrenology, etc etc etc. Religion is just another lubricant to placate docile individuals, and justify the actions of hate focused individuals
I’m certain we could all live together in peace, but we’re so tribalistic that the second anyone says their group is better than X because Y the majority of the population seems to lap it up at nearly any expense.
Zionists are as Jewish as the Nazis were Christian.
That's not really true lol.
Would you say that Hamas is as Muslim as Nazis were Christian?
Both groups are doing terrible shit in the name of their religion.
ISIS is as Muslim as the Nazi’s were Christian.
Hamas is more comparable to the Jews fighting back against the Nazi’s in the Warsaw Ghetto.
Yikes didn't realize breaking a ceasefire to rape, pillage and kill a lot of civilians, including entire family and babies (one through being baked alive) on their holy day was comparable to that.
I feel like this is why the left struggle so hard to rally support. When they unironically call Hamas a freedom fighter group. Literally anyone is free to read up on the group. They are a terrorist group through and through.
And yes religion had a huge influence on them. Just like they do on Israelis.
They, are Muslim. ISIS is Muslim. Israel is a Jewish state ran by Jews. It's religious crap causing this entire conflict. Some may be more extreme then others but let's not pretend religion has 0 to do with this conflict.
Israel was formed because Jews were persecuted for being Jewish. They chose Israel for religious and historical reasons.
Man so hardstuck on Hasbara he’s still repeating the baby in oven claim debunked multiple months ago
Whatever man you can keep defending a terrorist organization.
And it was not debunked. And after some googling not really proven to be true either. Just a dead Israeli baby found with possible oven burn marks.
But there are plenty of other instances on they day of babies being slaughtered that we do know exists and other fucked up inhumane shit.
And people like you are the worst. Your complete denial of Hamas atrocities forced people like me to be backed into a corner appearing to defend Israel, when I don't really want to be defending them either.
Maybe don’t use Israeli propaganda points?
Fuck hummus and fuck Israel
I realise there’s a thin line between freedom fighters and terrorists but hamas are very clearly the latter given they only seem to inflame tensions and actively profit from the ongoing conflict. Israel (or at least the current Israeli government) are far right borderline fascists committing an active genocide out of some hysterical need to prevent all future incursions from hamas at the detriment of anyone living in the area. The Palestinian people as always remain ongoing victims to the ensuing whims of these two powers.
It is irrelevant. In the West Bank there is no Hamas and Palestinians still get brutally massacared by israel.
The reason it says one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter is not because freedom fighters use the nicest ways to acquire their freedom. And Hamas’ goal clearly isn’t to exterminate Jewish people worldwide. Unlike groups such as ISIS or israel, Hamas is not interested in expanding their Lebensraum to other countries.
Weird point. Your previous comment very clearly equates hamas with Jewish resistance to nazis which I denied because hamas cares more about exterminating Jews than freeing Palestinians. Also somehow being a terrorist but not trying to spread terrorism is somehow more acceptable to you? My point was hamas are not freedom fighters because their actively profiting from the fight and have a vested interest in continuing it, not at an eventual victory or peaceful resolution.
Hamas has given a deal for a ceasefire on day one.
Hamas is still offering deals for a permanent ceasefire.
Hamas is looking for a peaceful resolution. That is not an opinion. That is a fact.
Israel is not looking for a peaceful resolution because they are Nazis that want to expand their Lebensraum.
Day one after they violated the last cease fire to attack a bunch of festival goers? Hamas is looking for time to plan the next attack. Pretending otherwise is just ignoring history. Israel is full on genocide mode atm but you don’t seriously think hamas want a ceasefire so they can de-escalate the conflict and eventually open the door to more diplomacy to eventually reach a 2 state solution that avoids any ongoing suffering. Its easy to ask for peace after you stab someone in the chest. It’s hard not to stab them to begin with and seek a peaceful and amicable resolution to existing hostilities.
What ceasefire israel bombed Gaza two weeks before October 7. For three days straight.
The last ceasefire was broken by israel by the way.
You might need this www.zeteonews.com/p/top-seven-lies-about-gaza
Hamas is an Insurgency Movement against a foreign invader, and has nothing to do with religion except in the Propaganda discourse of that very same foreign invader - Israel - which being deeply racist and commiting their murders mainly along etnic lines, uses racism in the West against Muslims to try and garner public support for their mass murder of Palestinians (not even Hamas, Palestinians) and has for a long time also used racism in the West to get support for themselves (the “unwavering support [of] the Jewish Nation” - emphasy mine - by Germany is a perfect example of that leveraging of racist thinking and race-related discrimination in a Western nation to obtain such levels of priviledged treatment that even Genocide is excused).
Outside the Israeli Propaganda, Hamas are as much related to religion as the Résistance Française was.
PS: This doesn’t mean I agree with some of Hamas’ methods, by the way. However, that doesn’t change the reality that their entire reason to be is that of an Insurgent Movement.
From Wikipedia:
Right, and the NAZI party was the National-Socialist Party Of The German Worker (whilst being anti-Socialist) and the Democratic Republic Of Korea is the northern one and a dictatorship, just to name two big examples of the name meaning nothing at all.
That “argument” of your is not exactly solid.
Some Hamas leader: “We are an Islamic resistance movement” (although there seem to be worse ones around)
Apparently they like islamic dress codes, going so far as to patrolling beaches to enforce them
They don’t like music and dance either
Please point to any source (not obviously islamic propaganda) of Hamas not being an islamic organization. I’m not saying it’s what makes them the bad guys, just that it’s dishonest to say they have “nothing to do with religion”
Me neither. Am i hamas now?
Let's not kid ourselves. From Israel being created, to all the two state solutions falling through, to all the terrorists attacks and assassinations that have happened was fueled by religion.
Religion created the deep divide between these two groups and caused the modern day situation.
It was a good idea for the rich
Some religions are worse than others. This particular religions sees everyone else as Goy: something akin to slaves or animals.
Religious nationalism is even worse.
This isn’t religious. A bunch of trolls/liars came from Russia and Germany and said their ancestors left this land in the BC era.
Edit: These people also claim that the Palestinians are land Interlopers who came from some undisclosed part of Arabia.
If there wasn’t a religion in play, people would just come up with different pretext.
What did their prime minster say - The most moral military in the world.
Yeah right… and the World “leaders” are just standing there staring at the shit that’s been happening.
Israel wants to destroy the Palestinian people, steal their land, destroy their homes, and build Jewish settlements there.
They have been doing this for morethan 70 years.
Last Ramadan they literally went around blowing up cars. The one before, I believe they were putting concrete mix into the well water (they actually did this but I can’t remember if this was an Israeli Ramadan tradition).