Ukraine fires US-made longer-range missiles into Russia
(edition.cnn.com)
from MicroWave@lemm.ee to world@lemmy.world on 19 Nov 13:38
https://lemm.ee/post/47765121
from MicroWave@lemm.ee to world@lemmy.world on 19 Nov 13:38
https://lemm.ee/post/47765121
Summary
Ukraine fired US-made ATACMS missiles into Russia’s Bryansk region, marking the first time Ukraine has used these longer-range weapons to strike targets deep inside Russia.
The attack comes after the Biden administration authorized Ukraine to use these weapons against targets inside Russia.
In response, President Putin updated Russia’s nuclear doctrine, labeling aggression from non-nuclear states supported by nuclear powers as a joint attack on Russia.
#world
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I wonder what the mental calculus about this is, considering that Biden knows a fucking moron is going to have to handle the fallout
I think he know Trump is going to help Russia in every way possible, so he might as well let Ukraine get since more serious hits in now while they can
I think he’s delivering on his promises to the MIC to maximize the money they invested in him before Trump enters office. If he gets us wrapped up in a conflict that requires deployment of US troops, so much the better for the stockholders depending on the Federal Government to get us as involved as possible.
Trump, while he did it for the wrong reasons, did pull the US military out of foreign wars during his first term. I imagine Raytheon and Boeing and Lockheed definitely do not want that.
Lol, my dude… You do remember he also ended the nuclear agreement with Iran and then assassinated their most idolized military commander?
The pretext of Israel’s ethnic cleansing is to rope America into a hot war with Iran. Trump is and has always been great for the mic.
Such a bad take.
I recall, yes.
It feels very odd to watch an American president do correct things for the wrong reasons. It’s much more familiar to watch people like Bush, Obama, and Biden doing the wrong things for reasons that aren’t provided to the public, because the narratives given around US wars are nearly always false.
Lol, war with Iran… A correct thing?
No, I’m referring to getting us out of Afghanistan and Syria specifically.
But you’ve noted, surely, that the US does largely support war with Iran by funneling WMD’s to Israel, right? Unless you voted Green, you explicitly lent your support to it via your ballot.
Oh yeah, how are the people in those two countries doing now?
Yeah, it was pretty much guaranteed after the pull out from the nuclear deal…almost like elections have consequences.
Lol, it’s a two party system. If you voted green you still lent your support to supporting a genocide, just in an incredibly stupid way.
We all pay taxes to a government supporting a genocide, some of us just don’t want it to get even worse.
I could not care less. I’m more concerned with how people are doing here in the US.
I’m sure feeding WMD’s to the Israelis for use against Iran won’t be problematic for that.
False. The Greens are the only party expressly opposed to helping Israel murder people at will, but you can create whatever justification you like for the support you lend to it.
Lol, at least you admit it.
I’m pretty sure you don’t care about that.
Again, I think you need to look up what a two party system is.
Thank you for the discussion.
It’s fascinating to watch you and others engage with people who you know disagree with you in this way, especially after two weeks ago.
I wish I could say the feelings mutual.
It’s fascinating to see how people like you seem to imagine everyone who disagrees with you as some sycophant obsessed with a political party. When in reality I’m not a fan of Democrats, and expected them to lose. I’m just kinda disgusted with the amount of people who don’t understand the very basic concept of harm reduction.
I am the product of a bi-racial marriage, in a bi-racial racial marriage, living in one of the most conservative states in America. I’m worried for trans and queer friends, I’m worried for my openly bisexual wife, and I’m worried about some of my patients. Several of which are families that have been brave enough to seek gender affirming care for their kids in Oklahoma of all places.
The last time Trump was elected we had to do so much more work creating mutual aid and self defense networks. When that man is in power, people get more aggressively bigoted.
I get that symbolically voting green is great. In reality everyone knows that in modern times it’s statistically impossible for 3rd parties to win any significant election. It’s just sad to realize that so many people forget the very basics of mutual aid. And on a personal note, financially it’s just not a great time for me to restart my defense and aid budget.
Just so I have this straight- you care deeply about Palestinians but don’t give a shit about Syrians or Afghans? Why?
yeah… with ukraine already talking diplomatic peace talks, i think they’re just trying to use the next 60 days to get the best possible terms
Pretty sure Zelensky is just trying to keep a lid on Trump and appear high minded to other western governments. Then when Russia’s demands are ridiculous he can point to them and go back to fighting with more support.
Russia says there’s going to be no peace talks without recognizing the new boundaries so, might as well carve out a big part of Russia for the Ukraine
thats the spirit.
Ukraine*. “the Ukraine” is an outdated term coined by people who never recognized Ukraine’s cultural sovereignty
“The Ukraine” and “Kiev” were two outdated 80s terms I had to update in my head when the war started.
one of my best friends told me in 2020 it hurt her feelings a little when people used the term. not because they hurt her feelings, but because it meant societally, our understanding of her and her family’s struggles came predominantly from people who hated them. it’s worth relearning for the people it effects.
Personally, I don’t want WW3 for stupid Ukraine.
Territorial freeze where they at works for me, just hope they don’t start a ww3
Give up a chunk of your own country to “apease” putin then. What do you think about that? Maybe Alaska if you’re American?
It’s Russia the agressor, not Ukraine.
Look its geopolitics/ real politics whatever u want to call it.
I hope u not gonna deny that US funded that overthrow in Ukraine and otherwise meddled there for decades?
Ukraine borders Russia so I can understand they don’t want hostile state right there, especially with nuclear ambitions. So what followed is just what followed.
Imo deal was pretty fair for them in the beginning, but as zelensky refused to settle - well body costs got higher so now it’s going to have to be territorial losses and they going to get higher with time.
Imo Ukraine can’t win this and Trump agrees,so might as well settle it. Imo conditions for Ukrainians are more than fair - Russia gives them citizenship, all the native rights, it’s very different from how Israeli treat Palestinians for example - pure genicide
Make sure to add some salt to your next mouthful of vatnik propaganda
In 2014, while Ukrainians were busy rioting by tens of thousands - about their government abandoning the EU association treaty - most of the world was entirely unprepared for taking even a firm political position about the events. After all, Yanukovich was a legitimate president who had only recently resorted to violence. Nobody had expected a revolution over a trade agreement, but he sparked it by having the folks protesting at Maidan beaten and dispersed. If he had talked or compromised with them, history would be considerably different.
As for who eventually took advantage of the situation - well, it was Putin. He used the opportunity to occupy Crimea (while denying that it was occurring) and to start an armed insurrection in Eastern Ukraine (the initiators were well known GRU people, including the now jailed Girkin).
I’m not sure where you get your information, but your source is not competent on Eastern Europe. The US is a far clumsier creature than you imagine (perhaps you expect today’s US to have the manners of the 1960-ties) while Putin’s regime has rarely had any second thoughts, and has been quick to draw and fire, because there’s only one brain making decisions, and he’s been in the Kremlin for decades now…
Nuclear ambitions? Are you even aware that Ukraine gave away its nuclear weapons to a friendly Russia, at a time when nobody even imagined Russia invading Ukraine? In return, though, it received security guarantees, both from the US and Russia. It also handed Russia its strategic bombers - because why have them - and intercontinental ballistic missiles - because what’s the use.
Before Putin entered the path of annexing parts of Ukraine, nobody had any reason to consider Ukraine and Russia to be hostile to each other. You can consult the old polls. The people considered each other brothers, until Putin exploited the confusion of a revolution in Ukraine, starting the invasion he’s now trying to finish. During the years 2014-2022, he gradually became dictator in Russia and brainwashed people into considering Ukrainians enemies. His goal? Making Russia great again, and he felt Russia couldn’t be great without the resources of Ukraine.
However today, after Russia has spent 1000 days grinding meat, I bet that several European countries do indeed want nuclear weapons - without admitting it openly, of course. Because apparently, conventional weapons don’t really deter Putin.
Sorry, but your sentence is laughable. Apparently, you are entirely unaware of the situation in the occupied territories, or in Russia. In Russia, you can get 5 years quite easily for criticizing the war. In the occupied territories, you just disappear if you get in someone’s way. Even most of the fallen Russian soldiers just “go missing”, so nobody would have to pay their relatives. The “native rights” of Russians at the moment are heading quickly towards rock bottom, and might only have some glamour if you offered them to North Koreans.
My recommendation: get informed first. And if your preferred way of getting informed is Facebook, Twitter or YouTube, then before going, be aware that such sites are algorithmically steering you towards material you’re predicted to like and engage with. Encyclopedias where one is required to cite sources, and mainstream media (some of it anyway) where a person can be held responsible for spreading falsehoods - they exist for a reason.
This is just a list of grievances and false accusations - which I don’t care about.
My concern - I don’t believe war against China can be won when they are 80 miles from Taiwan and we are what - how many thousands? Logisitcs can’t be done, Trump agrees.
Same is with Ukraine - I do not need them. My concern is I don’t want america be involved with this crap and cause ww3. The end. Ukraine has nothing for me - force them to settle and end this.
If u personally wanna fight - then go join up, I don’t care. I don’t want to, my life is comfortable.
You need Europe. The US pulling out of providing aid would be one thing, the US trying to force Ukraine into giving into aggression would be interpreted as blatant betrayal of the alliance by every single European country. Don’t expect us to stay allies when you actively work against our security interests, and don’t expect us to let it happen. We can defeat Russia in Ukraine, or we can defeat Russia in the Baltics, in Poland. We prefer doing it in Ukraine: Unlike you we know what war is like. Not war as in “dad comes home with shrapnel in his leg and PTSD”, war as in “your hometown is gone and everyone is either dead or starving”. You have no fucking concept.
And if you think that the US would fare well if Europe considers it a strategic threat… my sweet, sweet, summer child. You’d be unable to afford your own military-industrial complex without those arms exports and that’s just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the economical abyss you’d be in. That would not be popular, and that’s also precisely the reason why Trump would rather waterboard himself than risk it. Especially for a loser like Putin who can’t even re-take Kursk.
Life in Ukraine was nice, once, too. Don’t think something won’t affect you just because you don’t want to deal with it. Life ain’t a bowl of cherries. Noone is expecting you to fight. Solidarity, though? Think about it. It’s what friends do.
How do you intend to force another country to settle? By helping Russia win the war?
What you just read was a gently formulated history lesson, from a person who is far closer to the situation and far better informed, yet has no obligation to teach you history.
If your actual position is “I don’t care about facts, I don’t care about justice, I just fear World War 3”, you should be sincere about it. Fearing war is understandable, but you should then say that.
In the early stages of World War 2, people also feared war - so badly that they let dictators have parts of countries, then entire countries. In the end, what came out of it - at first they got shame (for failing to help allies, for persuading victims of agression not to resist - for being fools of the greatest variety) and then they got the biggest war in history, because an appeased dictator generally doesn’t stop. He’ll consider it a sign of weakness and try harder.
An important element in your views appears to be “I don’t need Ukraine”. Correct, an individual does not “need” a country - I don’t need any country in the world.
States do need alliances to safeguard their interests. Alliances are easier to maintain with societies that work similarly. States do develop relations of trust, and occasionally give each other access to valuable resources or knowledge. Betraying trust is considered a bad thing, since other partners stop trusting you then. Simple game theory, OK.
Ukraine received a promise in return for giving away hundreds of nuclear warheads: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
…but now that Russia has violated the terms of the agreement, other countries have to uphold their part of the deal. Many do because of their sense of justice - because they have a vested interest in preserving a rules-based international order. Others do it because they are likely candidates for Russian invasion.
The US helps Ukraine in the war because it has a vested interest in global stability. To demonstrate that international law applies, countries have to act when law gets violated. Deterrence was tried in autumn 2021, but sadly it failed. Now, for already 1000 days, weapons must back up ink on paper, showing that international law still applies (and violations have consequences).
If the US ignores its promise, allies of the US know that the US will ignore promises when not convenient. The network of alliances in Europe and Asia which gives the US a considerable extra layer of safety - it will come loose. Stability will be weakened, new conflicts may start. If someone thinks of attacking the US, they will no longer compute the numbers for fighting countries inhabited by a billion people, but only those who bother.
You mentioned Taiwan, and said you considered Taiwan unlikely to withstand Chinese attack. China is watching the war in Ukraine very attentively. If other countries assist Ukraine “no matter what”, China may consider it smarter to wait another 100 years for peaceful re-unification (if it ever comes) rather than attack Taiwan, because “no matter what” is a very high price.
Sorry what? Can you clarify why it’s reasonable to lose part of your country’s sovereignty?
It was Ukraines fault I raped her, dressing up all slutty and not wanting me!!
Well…
Hold on to your butts.
Pork butts? Mmmmm
Wth is grandpa doing? Please ffs let’s not start ww3 in the last 2 months .
Or civil war in the next 4 years
I moved my car several times in the time it took for this to happen. How about approve things, fire the weapons and then wait 3 days to let everyone know?
Ya, at least they didn’t leak they were permitted to hit more than Kurdk oblast.
If that was me, I would launch directly into the Kremlin and putin’s mansions.
thanks that you are not in the position to escalate the imperial shit show into a full blown nuclear mess.
Some notes, to help folks stay better informed:
Ukraine has been firing ATACMS into “Russia” (occupied and annexed Crimea) for a good year already, without World War 3 breaking out
Ukraine has its own missiles too (mostly cruise, not ballistic, but they had at least a few dozen Soviet-made “Tochka” SRBMs) and they’ve been firing those at high value targets in Russia from day one of getting invaded, it’s simply that their supplies of Tochka have almost entirely run out, and their home-grown missile industry is a big fat target for Russian attacks (despite which Ukraine produces missiles, but currently not ballistic missiles of a practically usable sort)
ATACMS is effective and practical, with a cluster warhead it has shown ability of taking out Russian air defense batteries (S-400 and such), which are difficult targets to attack
this time too, air defense failed to stop them and they caused secondary detonations at a large ammunition storage site
since Russia is still attempting to conquer Ukraine, now with added North Korean soldiers sent by their dictator, there continues to be plentiful ground for other countries to supply Ukraine with more advanced stuff to fire at the invaders, lest they invade more of Ukraine or start invading elsewhere
foreign ballistic missiles that Russia has fired into Ukraine include North Korean and Iranian missiles, so foreign-made BMs flying about is ordinary stuff in this war
It’s blindingly obvious that Ukraine has full rights to do this and its allies have the right to support them in it.