A grim poll shows most Jewish Israelis support expelling Gazans. It's brutal - and true
(www.haaretz.com)
from RandAlThor@lemmy.ca to world@lemmy.world on 03 Jun 22:12
https://lemmy.ca/post/45364623
from RandAlThor@lemmy.ca to world@lemmy.world on 03 Jun 22:12
https://lemmy.ca/post/45364623
Archive article: archive.ph/LJPiZ
A new survey showing that 82 percent of Jewish Israelis support the expulsion of Gazans was met with disbelief among those who stubbornly believe that the extremists are outliers. But these trends are as consistent as they are shocking
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The Israeli media has been full of overt calls for and endorsements of just outright genocide for over a year now.
At one point a prime time media show was ‘debating’ just fucking nuking Gaza.
Israeli social media has also been absolutely full of average people with genocidal rhetoric for over a year.
… They just say it in Hebrew, not English… most of the time.
This isn’t suprising to anyone who can use google translate, or read supplied English subtitles/captions.
Reading about this stuff on the Israeli lead news network KAN is… Interesting. When the complete eradication of Gazans is being talked about it’s very blasé and never takes responsibility. For example, this report says Hamas are in fact the ones screwing up Gaza aid efforts, and this one richly claims that the IDF did not kill anyone at an aid site. The IDF alleges that they investigated themselves and found that they weren’t guilty.
I think it's potentially true that Hamas fucks with aid and blames it on the IDF for public support. I don't know if they do, but it'd be smart. Israel is absolutely fucking with aid, guaranteed. They're murdering civilians, and damn near no one seems to give a shit. It's sad how few people seem to pay attention or care about the obvious signs of genocide. Not just the Palestinian genocide, the Rwandan, Bosnian, Cambodian genocides as well.
To what possible end? How does anyone in the Palestinian government benefit from their genocide?
I don't really think they do that, but I'd personally find it smart. Limit the amount of aid sent so that people are suffering and desperate. Offer a solution, win public opinion. Again, I don't really think they do that. I think that Israel's doing all of that.
You can’t do that kind of politics in the middle of a genocide.
The same possible end of israelis killing their prime minister or the current prime undermining peace efforts - power. Hamas are a bunch of lunatics, like Mileikowsky an his ilk.
They’re not worthy victims.
Wait till Greta gets blown to pieces, then there’ll be national mourning all over the place… then it’s back to normal after a few days.
The entire last twoish years have have been doubly insane for people like myself, because:
Though I am not Jewish, my cousins all are. They are all secular, American, liberal to lefty Jews by the heritage and ethnicity of their father, and his culture that they maintain.
They are all against the genocide, but according to current, general, right wing sentiment… they either don’t exist or are self hating.
I can only imagine this has all been even more insane for them.
Nearly every pro-Palestine protest on every campus in the US that I’ve read about or seem… has at bare minimum had sizeable numbers of Jewish Americans at it, if not being co-organized by them or headlining them as speakers.
… Meanwhile, I’ve been anti Zionist my whole life, and every single actual Israeli I’ve ever met has been a racist, anti-Islamic Zionist… and when I point this out, almost every white liberal or self described lefty has called me an antisemite.
Then on my own side of the family, my dad and my uncle just actually are racist anti-semites, making ‘off color jokes’ about Jews being greedy and money obsessed at fucking family gatherings literally in the faces of my cousins and their dad.
Oh well I guess?
Politics evolves to become defined by the hypocrises and contradictions no one is capable of having a rational discussion about.
The problem is that there is a fine line between stating your observations of a few people and racism.
I’d guess that you haven’t met many actual Israelis…… certainly not enough to be a statistically significant sample. If that’s the case then assuming that your observations apply to the whole population becomes racism.
Understanding that the majority of Israelis are fascist and support genocide does not make you rascist.
What you are doing is conflating zionism with Judaism, no different to the Israeli state and their propaganda. Believing that the Israeli government IS judaism is about as rascist as you can get. It’s no different than claiming Iran or the Taliban IS Islam/Arabs, which is unironically what Christian naturalists/racists/fascists believe.
Hey there, bingo, you managed to make roughly the same point as I did but without making it personal, lol.
As a kind of … lol, further, roughly relevant personal example:
My door dash driver the other day was a shorter woman, olive complexion, spoke with a bit of an accent, and had a head covering over her head ao that you couldn’t see her hair, but could see her whole face, along with something sort of resembling a shawl, but quite bright and colorful.
I thanked her for the food, and then, a bit awkardly said… ‘I only know how to ‘thank you’ in Arabic, shyu-ka-ren (sp lol), but I … believe you are probably Persian, how would I say ‘thank you’ in Persian?’
She smiled and was a bit confused: ‘How did you know I am Persian, and not Arab?’
‘Ah, I don’t know the proper names of the different styles of head coverings, but I have seen many pictures, and I think yours is more common in Persia, they tend to be different in Arab countries.’
‘Ah, that’s right! That is how you knew!’ smiled again. ‘Yes, in Arabic it is shyu-ka-ren, in Persian it is tash-ah-kor!’
I then struggle to pronounce it a few times until getting it right, while also semi-short circuiting, reverting back to my ‘Karate training’ and mixing in semi-formal Japanese bows.
… Given where I currently live, I can almost statistically guarantee she’d never encountered a white person she’s delivered DoorDash to here, who even bothered to attempt to tell the difference between an Arab and a Persian, muchless for the purpose of trying to properly thank her in her own language.
All that to say: It is entirely possible to be humble, and attempt to ‘profile’ people… to achieve something pleasant, good, that spreads a smile.
Awkward? Probably.
Racist? … No, more likely quite close to the opposite.
I have not met very many Israelis, that is true…
But the ones that I have met expressed very overtly racist positions that were logically inconsistent in any other scenario: special pleading all the way.
I wasn’t, at the time, back around a decade ago now, telling my white liberal friends ‘all Israelis are racist because I met a few’.
I was telling them ‘this is what this one particular guy said, this is what that other particular guy said, if you applied that same logic you could justify the US extermination of Native Americans, this is concerning to me.’
You are here doing the thing my former friends did: You are assuming I did and said things I did not do nor say, and are pearl clutching… because you’ve head canon’d in your own missing context and additional details.
Notably none of my former white liberal friends bothered to ever ask me about having grown with fairly frequently interacting with… you know, my cousins… and me and them getting along with them well, me learning how to make a latke, me being respectful at hannukah despite me being raised Protestant, me being excited to learn the dradel dradel dradel song as a kid, watching fiddler on the roof together and me liking the songs so much I learned how to sing some of them, and then my actually anti semitic dad telling me to cut that shit out in his house, etc.
Nah they just assumed I was an anti-semite, because they and their families were even more lily white than me and mine, and were projecting their own fears of being viewed as anti-semitic onto me.
It is entirely possible for me to say ‘every Israeli I’ve met has been racist’, that be a true statement, while I can also simultaneously believe that not all Israelis are racist, statistically or by definition… because I am aware of the difference between an anecdote and a statistically valid survey.
…
But did you read the entire article that is this post?
82% of the Israeli public support, at bare minimum, ethnically cleansing all of Gaza.
Thats 4 out of 5.
That is your statistically valid sample.
Turns out my anecdotal experience was not atypical.
…
I’ve only met a few Japanese (as in, born and raised in Japan and ethnically Japanese) people in my life, and they’ve all been skilled martial artists.
This just is true.
Because I met them via participating in Karate for over a decade.
… Does this mean I think all Japanese people are highly skilled martial artists?
No.
Not unless you read that into what I said, despite me not actually saying that, because you head canon’d your own context into the first statement.
I’m not saying that you were being racist. I’m saying that it’s very easy to come across as racist when pointing out things that you don’t like about a few people off the same race.
I’m doing no such thing. I wasn’t judging you for your observations and I made no statement about whether I thought you were racist or not because I don’t have the information required to suggest that you are.
No, I didn’t need to because I was only making the comment that it’s very easy to be seen as racist when you talk about a race of people.
Ah, guess we better just not talk at all about race then and all just do ‘im colorblind, i intentionally ignore systemic racial injustices and judge everyone by my own racially priveleged standards’.
Fuck off.
Context matters, the context of this post and the comments that follow from it matter, you just randomly popping in to ‘agnostically’ critique a single comment, on its own, without context, when the entire point of said comment is that proper context and nuance matter is an insultingly facile and unproductive thing to do, its the insecure, passive-aggressive liberal’s version of ‘just asking questions’ / ‘lets say, hypothetically… (nonsenical rhetorical non sequitir).’
Is… is this what you do, just scan random comments and remove all context and then tell people that with all the context removed this could sound bad?
You reply to specific, detailed posts and then say oh actually I was just commenting generally, it just happened to be on this specific comment for no particular reason?
Go back to twitter or bluesky to clutch your pearls, fuck off with your disingenuous, shit-disturber bullshit.
‘nogooduser’ indeed, almost like an intentional joke name a dedicated contrarian troll would use.
I’m sorry that I offended you. I was genuinely trying to be helpful in pointing out how what you said could be misconstrued.
That’s why we have actual surveys.
This “issue” has unfortunately been in Israeli controlled media for much longer than a year. They’ve been indoctrined to hate Palestine since the forming of israel
Oh I know, its just been dialed up to fucking insane levels lately.
Oh yeah it’s gone wild, but at least that brings the issue up for people who are willing to be informed and change their view point on the matter (as rare as that may be these days).
Also, part 2:
Israelis tend to get really fucking triggered when you tell them about:
Israel was literally founded by terrorists who bombed and shot civillians in terror bombings… as in, they explicitly targetted civillians for the chaos factor… and they wrote about this in their own journals and memoirs and then went on to lead the government.
The entire USS Liberty incident, which was almost certainly Israel trying to false flag blow up an American ship during the 6 day war and blame it on the Egyptians, to get the US directly involved.
The Apollo Affair, wherein Israeli sympathizers/spies literally stole US nuclear fissile material from the US to aide in the production of their nuclear weapons (which basically every Western government officially, and society generally, denied they even had nukes untill about a year to 6 months ago).
The Samson Doctrine, Israel’s take on nuclear detterance… is more or less this:
If Israel feels like it is going to be nuked or completely invaded, they will nuke major cities in all countries within one to two thousand miles, ally, enemy, neutral, who cares, the logic is to throw as big of a shit fit as possible and declare that if they can’t have Israel, no one can have anything, and they’ll do all that themselves.
And finally, if you just tell them that Hasbara is a real thing that obviously exists and promotes publically that it will pay anyone who will draft themselves into being an online propaganda troll for Israel.
… Conversely, if anybody were to tell me about all the awful shit the US has done and is doing, I have a functioning moral compass and brain and can say, yep, that shit is/was fucking awful, unnaceptable, and in my ideal world, all those responsible would be in jail or tried as war criminals, in the ICJ for crimes against humanity, Luigi’d, etc.
They see us Palestinians so poorly, that they’d straight up rather KILL THEMSELVES than be captured.
When that story broke, or video footage emerged of … around a year ago now…
Of a ‘hostage rescue mission’… involving a fucking Merkava point blank firing a main cannon round into the building they believed the hostages and their captors were in, that was also in a large multi family apartment building, with tons of other civillians inside…
I fucking lost it.
Even from the perspective of US Rules of Engagement in Iraq War 2, which was… lets say highly insufficient at prioritizing noncombatant safety, at best…
That is fucking godamned insane nonsense. If a US tank crew had accidentally put a tank round into a densely occupied civillian apartment building, they would have been fucking court matrialled, or it would have been covered up and a decent scandal when it leaked out later.
To do this intentionally? In a hostage rescue mission? And every pro-Israel person either ignores it or is totally fine with it?
Just fucking insane, like parody super hero ‘oops, Homelander was gonna save everyone but he got angry or sneezed and lasered the airplane pilots’ fucking insane.
When that helicopter gun cam vid of blowing away suspected insurgents first aired in 04 on ABC, it caused a national debate.
In Israel, the last year or so, we get a video like that every other day, and then people stitch themselves into it making demeaning jokes.
It’s called zionism.
Yeah, this is has been obvious for…30 years now? This is only shocking to ostriches
Say it loud for those in the back, it’s not just the leaders.
Here’s the part where some numbnuts will stop to explain, “Not all Jews!” Yeah. We get that. But the Jewish state of Israel, which was founded as a safe haven for Jews, is genocidal as fuck. And who makes up 75% of the population of Israel? Could it be… Jews? Where do 50% of the Jews on the planet reside? Could it be Israel?
And for stating a few unarguable facts, I expect a ban. Maybe I could very sheepishly, on the down-low, suggest that only a radical, very tiny number of Jews are, perhaps, maybe partly, just a bit, guilty of genocide, or at least, are collaborators and supporters?
FFS, no one has the balls to say out loud, “Not a good look guys.” <-anti-Semitism
Sincerely:
GenXer who had always supported Israel and had less than zero beef with Jews.
Yeah, I think it’s less being Jewish and more that they are settlers. They are acting just like how Canadians, Australians and Afrikaners acted against the local indigenous population.
Anything that reminds them that they don’t belong to this land (in their assessment and minds, land does not belong to anyone) they hate that. Mostly the people who were there before them.
It’s not Jewishness, it’s just Assholeishness.
The vast majority of Israeli Jews and a significant number (not sure if a majority) of diaspora Jews are actively guilty of perpetuating and aiding Israel's genocide and occupation(s). That's just facts and won't get you banned (at least not from Lemmy). However, generalizing that to the significant fraction of Jews who aren't party to these crimes or are opposing them is antisemitism and will rightly get you banned. There's nothing complicated about this.
Sources ? The biggest foreign community that support the fascists in Israel are evangelist.
On the other side, their is a lot of Jewish organization that support Palestine
Israel is absolutely being genocidal here, but it has nothing to do with them being Jews. They want the land, full stop. They believe they are more entitled to the land than anyone else, full stop.
The fact that they are Jewish is really immaterial and hating “the Jews” because of what Israel is doing is a lot like, I dunno, hating white people because of the various White Supremacist groups.
You have a supremacist government taking genocidal actions, any supremacist government would do the same, it doesn’t matter what the heritage is.
And you have a population that largely supports the actions of the government.
It’s not the government just doing what it pleases, it’s doing what its population wants it to do.
Correct, but being Jewish isn’t a factor in their thinking.
I’m not disagreeing with you, but as my ex used to comment (she’s Jewish and went to private Jewish school) their religion is very clear in explaining they are the chosen children of God.
Off the bat they are indoctrinated that they are better than all of us.
All I know is my children are less safe in the world because of what the state of Israel is doing and that disgusts me.
Every religion is convinced they are the chosen children of God. :)
Oooh not like them. With them it’s clearly defined in the Torah multiple times. G-d Himself tells them they are His children.
So it’s a fascist state, which include a support of it’s population through nationalism. It doesn’t change anything that this nationalism is based on a religion, regional or cultural identity. It’s work the same.
Speaking about all the population is cutting ourselves from the ally we have in the 15%. We couldn’t say “it’s over, we couldn’t do anything for those left”; we are the 15% in our own imperialist state. And if you think that this is a different situation, there were German resistance during WW2 … and they almost kill hitler.
Even if you disagree, why speaking about Jewish people and not just Israeli people ? You just insulting every Jews that choose do not live in Israel. A choice you didn’t make.
I don’t judge the individual, but I sure as hell judge them as a group, who keep voting for people who are doing genocide.
Absolutely disgusting. Our common ancestors are rolling over in their graves at their inhumanity.
How can the war realistically end?
A return to the pre-war status quo. The withdrawal of Israeli troops, presumably in return for the hostages, with either Hamas or another group equally hostile to Israel in control of Gaza. This is the worst-case scenario for Israel, because it represents a total failure to eliminate the source of more potential October 7 attacks. I suspect it’s the worst-case scenario for Gaza too, since future attacks on Israel would lead to future destruction in Gaza.
The destruction of Hamas and the establishment of a Gazan government friendly towards Israel, perhaps by the Palestinian authority or a coalition of Arab states. Very difficult and failure-prone, but a pathway to peace in the long term. I had hoped that this would be the outcome when the war started but it isn’t what Netanyahu is trying to accomplish and by now I’m not sure there’s enough goodwill left for it to still be possible.
Permanent Israeli occupation. I don’t think Israel can maintain such an occupation - it would be extremely expensive in money, lives, and international goodwill. Netanyahu and his supporters seem to think that Israel can, but many of them seem to make plans reliant on divine intervention.
Expulsion of the population of Gaza. Egypt wouldn’t accept that without a war. Maybe Trump thinks he can find another country that would, but even if he did (unlikely) then the logistics of moving two million people would be extremely challenging. I think this outcome is effectively impossible - another one of the “divine intervention required” plans. However, it would be a best-case scenario for Israel. The gain in territory means little, but no longer having Gazans as neighbors immediately ends the conflict for good, which no other outcome does.
If (2) isn’t going to happen then (4) may be the best case scenario for everyone. Even the people being expelled and their descendants would probably be better off than they would be if they remain in Gaza for for many more decades of conflict. However, I very much doubt that it can happen.
So… a nation and a religion that was defined by its thousand-year exile by an evil empire forces another nation into a thousand-year exile as the acting hand of another evil empire.
Please understand that this is, on every conceivable level, insanely fucked up and flies in the face of both reason and morality.
The best solution would be to have an integrated, secular government and plans for reparation, return, and reconciliation.
There’s no reason to assume that ancient israel was any less evil than ancient rome.
Furthemore, that doesn’t define judaism. There were thousands of years before and after roman conquest. Zios focus on the roman empire because that’s their shitty justification for genocide, theft, etc.
This isn’t any more fucked up than the genocide of native americans for example. Unfortunately there’s nothing special about empire genociding people. But I don’t think these zios are lobbying for native american rights, because zios are genociders.
Lastly this doesn’t have much to do with “religion” versus “sucularism”. Zionism was largely founded by the non-religious. It’s goals are not religious but purely political/genocidal. The most “religious”/spiritual jews largely reject the zionist regime. Religion is a tool of empire, but the more fundamental problems are empire, colonialism, racism, etc.
So your solution is annihilation, let me guess you’re a liberal Zionist or something like that?
There’s only one solution, free Palestine, from the river to the sea. Palestine needs to be decolonized and Palestinians need to be given back what rightfully belongs to them.
Israel as a state should have never been established and this apartheid genocide state just needs to stop existing. All the rabid Zionists who can’t accept that Palestinians are human beings with equal rights can make use of their dual citizenship and leave. Or move to Germany or Hungary or something who seem to love them anyway.
There needs to be Nuremberg process to try all the war criminals and put them behind bars.
As for those who are willing to coexist with Palestinians can stay, but if they live on stolen land or in stolen property they can’t stay there and have to return that to their owners and move somewhere worse.
That’s (5) and what humanity has to strive for.
It’s also not realistically achievable without somehow convincing Israel to willingly dismantle itself, given that a) a significant disparity of military power exists between it and Palestine, which isn’t likely to reverse any time soon given that it is nigh impossible for Palestine to build an economic base sufficient to rival Israel while under effective occupation and b) that it is an open secret that Isreal possess nuclear weapons, making some kind of foreign invasion suicidally untenable. Actually launching those weapons would be an extremely dangerous move of course, but a state facing a clear and imminent outside threat to it’s existence is exactly the kind of situation where someone might contemplate it.
The most likely thing to work out that I can envision would be if foreign support can at least shore up what remains of Palestine enough to give it sovereignty and at a stretch some means of deterrence against further attack. All that really achieves admittedly is a two state solution, which doesn’t result in a Palestine with particularly favorable geography, but if it results in peace there’s the hope that the hatred involved can cool with time and new generations until some kind of union can be proposed without the resultant state being at risk of collapsing into a genocidal state again.
Doesn’t need to be ‘willing’.
Dismantling it unwillingly requires someone doing it have sufficient military power to defeat Israel by force of arms. Who might that be?
Apartheid South Africa and Nazi Germany and all the colonies of the empire didn’t dismantle themselves because people asked them to do so. This has to happen through boycott, divestment, sanctions because I don’t think more war would be the answer, and I am against violence in any form.
Make Israel collapse by putting so much pressure on them that they just can’t anymore. Our governments won’t just do this, so we have to do it ourselves. It’s a slow process, but it’s a process and with every escalation by them it speeds up.
Unfortunately it doesn’t help the Gazans who are being annihilated right now, but the future I outlined is the only future Palestinians deserve.
I get the idea, and I’m not opposed to things like that, given that they don’t seem likely to worsen the situation and might extract some kind of concession from Israel, but I don’t expect that it’d be likely to actually work. Israel is not, for it’s similarities, exactly the same as South Africa and Nazi Germany (the latter of which, for that matter, didn’t exactly collapse just because of economic sanctions), and sanctions have their limits, else for example North Korea would have collapsed long ago, along with a whole host of other regimes that have gained the ire of significant parts of the world for one reason or another.
South Africa was a nuclear power backed by the same countries that now back the genocide. It was hard to imagine back then that the apartheid would end, but it happened.
Yeah as I said, I’m against violence so I advocate for the boycott solution and not for the Nazi Germany treatment even though some might feel like the Zionists would deserve that…
South africa was not an occupation and still used armed resistance. Armed resistance was always a big part of ending occupation.
It would be so great if occupation was ending without a single casualities this is not the case
One other option beyond BDS (and not involving an invasion) would be countries removing diplomatic recognition of Israel and expelling all Israeli diplomats.
This is of course easier said than done, but it’s far more viable than any other alternative courses of action.
And armed revolution
I recommend you to listen to Ilan Pappé. Israel already is on a trajectory of collapse. The society has many inner rifts.Many people who can afford it leave. The economy would fall apart without the lifeline from its allies. When it comes to anything outside of mass slaughtering civilians, invading countries without leadership and blowing up infrastructure, the IDF is a quite incompetent military.
It will not collapse tomorrow and maybe not in 10 years. But in the long run the zionist project is failing. The question remains how much more genocide Israels allies want to squeeze out of the opportunity.
You mean a Bantustan? We've already seen this happen in the West Bank and, surprise surprise, it did not lead to peace.
Setting aside how morally reprehensible and utterly stupid this is, did you forget the West Bank?
Best time to break the blockade was the 90s, the second best time is now.
Do you think maybe not giving an ethnostate unlimited veto support and munitions is an option before your 4 tiers of capitulation of, at best, a return to the apartheid that resulted in Hamas?
Israel won’t stop fighting upon gaining the historical borders of Israel & Judah. That was never the final goal, it’s just the current justification.
The Israeli state is sort of doomed to be in a constant ethno-religious war with its neighbours, because-
This means that Israel presently relies on an external backer for its security (the US). Its number one policy goal is to change that fact. As a fascist regime, it’s only really got one tool, which is to invade its enemies and engage in settler-colonialism (google Greater Israel). Like it’s doing in Gaza. The fringe ultra-right in Israel are already calling to annex Lebanon, to “eliminate Hezbollah”.
This is also doomed to fail and cause even more misery.
This is false
this is mostly true but they tend to be anti-Islamist
Yeah I think there are some issues with my analysis, esp my understanding of the relationship between the Egyptian & Syrian govt, and their nations’ islamic fundamentalists. Neighbours isn’t the best way to frame it, but, regional opponents? Chiefly: Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran & Arabia (though the Saudis have a sort of dual character, since they have to appease the west).
Makes you wonder if Israel is trying to grab as much land as possible and eliminate as many people who might have competing claims on that land as possible before the US collapses economically (and with that their giant military budget) now that Donald Trump is doing his best to make that a reality.
Even if they managed to aquire no. 2, many Israeli settlers won’t accept this and will keep driving off Palestinians. With media attention focused on gaza, hostages, and the genocide war or Endlösung of the Palestinian question, those settlers openly drive out or outright kill people living on the land longer than Israel exists. Peace in Gaza won’t stop this.
Hamas isn’t the problem. Both Hamas and the PA tried peace and a 2-state solution along 1967 borders. The Arab League offered peace and normalization to Israel on similar terms in 2002. Israel, specifically the right which keeps winning elections, rejected all peace attempts. Netanyahu’s party the Likud adheres to the ideology of Jabotinsky and refuses any Palestinian statehood at all:
Jabotinsky wanted to go further and claim both banks of the Jordan river. Today in Israel talks of annexing Lebanon, Syria and beyond as part of Greater Israel are becoming more mainstream.
Shocking. Israel has successfully dehumanized the entire Palestinian population.
nbcnews.com/…/israel-posts-video-saying-are-no-in…
This was over a year ago:
“Israeli government accounts on the social media site X have been posting a video with a quote from a freed hostage, in which she says that “there are no innocent civilians” in Gaza.”
As a Native American my heart goes out to all Palestinians effected by these ignorant Zionist we must be better than this we can be better than this.
It’d be more surprising if the ingroup of an established ethnostate weren’t hitlerites.
Holocaust in actio
This poll is disgusting
Why do you inquiry people based on their religion, and not their social class or nationality ? Or their implication in the settlements ? They may have interesting numbers their, but this poll decided to racialize the conflict.
Why shall we trust a poll in fascist state at war, that conclude that the leader have the support of the nationality of that fascim ? That really seems like propaganda.
This is not the first pollster that finds these results. You are probably just unfamiliar with how fascist Israeli society is.
That’s not the point. This a fascist state, which imply a massive support from the population, their is no debate.
So we have to stop being so naive. What say those numbers ? Who allow those numbers to exists ? What those numbers do not tell ? Why nobody ask themselves those questions ?
Finally, some racist people may attack jews around the world because of the confusion made between us and Israel. And again, that confusion is one of the objective of Israel propaganda
So you’re saying this poll is a fascist plot? And zios actually are super kind to palestinians? gtfo.
All my statements are against the state of Israel (and any imperialist state), and against Zionism (and every state nationalism). I’m just afraid that people are confused between jews and zionist. And you short reading trend to prove my right
Because Israel, in effect, has two different nationalities: Jewish Israeli and Palestinian Israeli. Polling without considering this simply results in less useful data.
so you say that nationalities are more accurate than religion. That’s my point
Okay so what's your point?
Nationalities (or citizenships has pointed by @Aceticon@lemmy.dbzer0.com ) are made by the ruling class, and have no reality in it-selves. I don’t say we couldn’t used those categories, but we have to stay critic.
If not, we will hide some solidarity or antagonism between class. Israel threat a lot of people, including Jews (Falashas, Sefarad, Yiddish, …), and is supported by anti-semits (radical evangelists, far right party, nazi organization), …
A poll based on legal categories in an apartheid state is accurate. However, using the name chosen by the nationalist propaganda (i.e “Jews” and not “Jewish Citizenship”) is taking part in this propaganda, and have disastrous effect.
They’re citizenships, not nationalities.
Israel does this almost unique thing in the World which is split Citizenship from Nationality, with those who have the former only having the latter if they’re Jews (constitutionally only a Jew can be an Israeli national). Further Israeli Citizenship is broken into Jewish Israeli and Non-Jewish Israeli, with the latter having less rights than the former (for example, Non-Jewish Israeli Citizens require “authorization” from local authorities to go live in certain parts of the country).
Israel was set up as an Apartheid state from the very beginning.
That said the other poster made a mistake: Palestinians are not Israelis - not even Non-Jewish Israeli Citizens - and have no rights at all in Israel. Further, there is no right to Israeli Citizenship by being born in Israel (unless you’re a Jew: any Jew, anywhere in the World, has a right to Israeli Nationality, which also gives them Jewish Israeli Citizenship).
This has interesting effects such as people whose families have lived in Jerusalem for generations not having Israeli Citizenship because it was denied to them even though they were born there and lived there their whole lives. Of course, all of these people are not Jewish as all Jews constitutionally have a right to Israeli Nationality.
So By Law Israel has 3 different classes of people living there, in decreasing order of the rights they have:
How do they gatekeep who can be Jewish?
The don’t gatekeep Jewishness, they gatekeep Israeli Nationality on the basis of being Jewish or not.
I have no idea how they determine who is a Jew and who is not.
What I do know, which is pretty damn interesting, is that Etiopian Jews, who are Black, did got Israeli Nationality when they came to Israel and asked for it, same as all other Jews but from what I read the State Of Israel still treated them differently (for example, see here, though this being Britain and the BBC they’re likely reporting a milder subset of reality).
Good old white colonialism…
If the Germans could determine whether someone was Jewish, I’m sure there must be several perfectly reasonable and objective ways of doing it.
Zionism is a religious movement.
It’s also nationalist, and jewish supremacist.
Also religion is the main tool used to make people commit atrocities.
No, it’s not. Again the biggest organization that support zionism is evangelist. A lot of atheist people are atheist, and a lot of jews are not zionist, or are anti-zionist. You making short link that break solidarity and make confusion their.
Yes religion used to justify nationalism, colonialist, imperialist and apaththeid… as a propaganda. We don’t fighting Israej in repeating its propaganda.
Yiddish culture has piratically been destroy by Israel policy. Jews from Ethiopia (Falashas) has been sterilized by force the Israel. Being Jews or not is unrelated with Israel.
The ideology that the jewish people are owed the promised land of Jerusalem, by god, and that any means to control that holy land are justified, is 100% absolutely a RELIGIOUS extremist beleif.
Stop being delusional
During demo for palestine, we were a lot of Jews; some not practising, some without belief, and some orthodoxe. If you are surprised, by one of those statement, you may reconsider what you think of who are jews or not; because is neither to you or Israel to decide.
Christian Bible said that everyone have to be convert; I would not say that every Christian are intolerant to other bielief. It’s obvious that every christians to not believe in eevrything in the bible. Why Jews couldn’t do the same with the Torah ?
Living in a land is unrelated to forbid anyone else to do the same. Jews where diving there for millennium before the colonization. And finally, if you thing that we all have to be fundamentalists, the Torah said that the diaspora is is a divine punition, and that this is the role of the messiah to lead us to Israel. Lots of orthodoxe are anti-zionist saying that only god thogh the messiah could allow us to move in Israel.
Sorry but you don’t no shit
Jews and Zionists are two distinct groups.
Zionists are jewish extremists, just like ISIS is an extremist islamic group.
No Zionist are not jews extremists. . Some Jews extremist are, and zionist are not jews. Some Zionist are christians extremist, some zionist are atheist. Zionism is preteding to defend Jewish people. Its racist and colonial against people of Palestine, people from maghreb or Africa, and it could be antisemitic too : lemmy.wtf/post/22551217
You have crafted a fictional worldview that doesn’t align with reality.
This is a you issue
I’m blocking you now.
What do you think the actual numbers are? How far off if this poll in your conspiracy theory?
I don’t give a shit if those numbers are right or true. It’s not changing anything
waiting for bill maher who claimed muslims were inferior because some muslim countries supposedly supported this and that according to random polls. surely he will be consistent.
He will be consistent in saying Muslims are inferior.
Bill Maher is the biggest hypocrite.
Not enough principle to be a hypocrite. He’s just a drunk old creep.
Just like in Nazi Germany, the entire Israeli population is complicit.
Not to be super technical but “most” is not the same as “all”.
82% support genocide.
What percent of the Germans under Hitler supported genocide?
Not all.
About 800,000 Germans were arrested during the war for actively resisting. That’s about 1% of the population arrested. And these were just the bravest ones. The less glorious ones are probably a bigger number.
That’s not to deny that a majority was supporting the Nazis. That’s to make the distinction between “most” and “all”.
Surely there couldn’t be any negative consequences to sweeping generalizations of a people? ;)
clutches pearls
My understanding is that Israeli TV is hugely responsible for making this mainstream. Just like in Rwanda where radio played a huge role in the genocide.
It’s almost as if genocide scholars have been warning about a series of patterns over the last couple of years…
Serious question, how much of this has to do with hamas not releasing the hostages. I would imagine they’d be hearing and talking bout getting their people back constantly.
It’s hard to say. With or without hostages, October 7 was extremely traumatic; and came in the context of a population already primed to be suspicious of Palestinians. In particular, the West Bank ethnic cleansing was already well underway with the tacit support of the general population; as although for most people that support was more about apathy than proactive support. Looking at how the US lost its shit for decades after 9/11, it is clear that hostages are not necessary for that to happen. Israel has also to deal with follow up attacks, which has a way of keeping trauma fresh.
Regarding the role of the hostages in this case, the first thing to acknowledge is that the actual response by Israel has not prioritized the hostages. Critical members of Israel’s current governing coalition have threatened to leave over prior attempts at a hostage deal. This has lead a serious rift developing between the current government and many of the hostage families.
However, from a propaganda side, the hostages have been a major assesset to the current government (both internationally and domestically). Most people are simply not that engaged in politics. We have heard repeatedly from Israeli military leadership that there are no achievat military goals left in Gaza. However, it is hard for that message to break through when the other side can point to the hostages and say “freeing those people is our goal”. Nevermind the fact that everyone paying attention knows that military action is not an effective tool of hostage release [0] and almost all of the freed hostages have been freed as a result of diplomacy.
[0] It can be useful for leverage in negotiations; but Israel is well past the point needed for that.
Hamas should free the hostages. Frankly, they should have never taken non-combatant hostages in the first place. That was absolutely a crime.
Most of October 7 was a crime, even without the hostages. Taking the hostages was itself a crime, and continuing to hold them continues to be a crime.
The question of what Hamas “should” do is more complicated. Clearly following international law is not a priority for them, so that justification goes out the window.
In terms of actually advancing their interests, I don’t see much benefit to them. Their biggest asset in Israeli domestic politics are the hostages. The political pressure in Israel to free them is real, and the decision makers all know that a deal is the only way to meet that. Further, a not insignificant portion of the population oppose the war in it’s current form specifically because of the hostages. The only wins Hamas has gotten has been through hostage negotiations.
In exchange for giving all of that up, Hamas gets a slight benefit in the PR war. It is a very hard sell to say that is a good trade.
If you want Hamas to free the hostages, you need to get to a point where “Hamas should free the hostages” is true from the perspective of Hamas. Then, you can work on convincing them it is true. The good news is that Hamas is very amenable to the idea that releasing hostages is in their interest. That is the entire reason you take hostages: to get some benefit by releasing them.
I am using “should” in a moral sense, according to my own moral compass. I mean that according to my own morality they “should do the right thing”. Nothing beyond that.
That said, I agree with your analysis entirely.
Netanyahu want to continue the genocide even after hostages are released . Don’t tell the oppressed what to do when the west been ignoring 57 years of occupation and dozens of atrocities like 7 of October through history .
You should ask for Israel to end occupation, allow a one or two state solution then bring people responsible of atrocities on both side
Go through my comment history buddy, you’re preaching to the choir. The fact that the Israeli apartheid regime is committing genocide is one thing. The fact that Hamas should not have taken non-combatant hostages is another. And sorry but no, I refuse to identify Hamas with “the oppressed”. They are fanatics propped up by slave-owners in the Gulf and politically useful idiots of the Israeili apartheid regime.
You are an idealist ignoring history and human psychology .It would be cool if there was a resistance group that do not target any civilians and do not get money from shady group. This was never the case. I can got in history and see ton of massacre commited by the oppressed due to oppresion. Like nana sahib in india promising safety to a bunch of british civilians amd soldier and ending up massacring them.
Palestinians won’t stay silence and keep hearing the useless both commited attrocities bs , waiting arabs and west countries to help which they will never do.
I don’t support hamas, i support their actions against the idf terrorists only
Talking about a useful idiot, that’s the palestinian autority collaborating with israel while israel arm and protect violent terrorists settlers and expanding settlements
You are so hardcore and knowledgeable of human history and psychology. So hardcore. Yea.
Look buddy. The world fucking sucks, right? People do horrible things. People are locked into doing horrible things. People are desperate, and brutalized and traumatized and beaten down. You can look at that and say, yea that’s how it is.
Or you can look at it and say We Should Do Better. You call that idealism? Good. In a world where reality is becoming more brutal by the hour, maybe a little idealism is what exactly we need.
We should do better and stop the occupation. If we don’t we let the occupied do what they have to do
Like I said before:
Ending the occupation is the obvious solution. The occupation and the apartheid is the root of all this shit.
Here’s the catch for you though: ending the occupation is not realistic, it’s the most idealistic thing one could be asking for right now. Because the reality on the ground, created by decades of colonization is that it is simply politically impossible to extract about a million settlers from the West Bank. So “ending the occupation” is exactly the kind of idealism that I’m also pushing for (like “don’t take kids hostages”). Because if we are talking about a real liberation scenario, in the best case, we are talking about some kind of post-apartheid mess. Maybe some kind of civil war too.
So don’t you fucking run your mouth at me about history and human psychology. I’m tired of supposed hardcore know-it-alls. Hayde malaka.
I don’t care about your comment history. You keep saying you oppose occupation then deny Palestinians right to armed resistance.
Here the catch, no occupied country knew that one day there will liberate themselves from occupation, they just has to do what they have to do.
Ending occupation by all mean necessary is certainly more realistic then yelling in the cloud stop occupation and expect the occupier to stop occupying.
That’s why I ask for a one state solution. This is also ending the occupation and the only solution to stop violence on both side. Do you agree that a one state solution is the best option and this would happen only if Israel is weaken military and economically?
Strategically, we are aligned, we are in agreement. Yes, a bi-/pluri- national successor democracy with equal rights for all people, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, etc, Arab, Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Druze, etc. Indigenous, Migrant, Refugee, etc. Yes. With democracy and equal rights to all. With safety to all. A state and a society that would honour the Nakba AND the Holocaust.
Tactically, no. I am not denying Palestinians the right to armed resistance. I am denying them the right to cruelty. Killing, injuring, capturing soldiers in battle? That’s their right and god damn it I cheer them when they do it. Doing the same things to civilians? Fuck. No. I maintain the need for moral clarity in this shit that we are in. And that’s our difference: you are embracing a kind of pseudo-revolutionary nihilism that is willing to accept cruelty if it comes from the below. You pretend that is somehow “by all means necessary”, as if kidnapping kids is ever “necessary”. Fuck. No. Your politics is anti-political, it is a dead-end, there is no possibility for a future, just hatred and larping Malcolm X. You want an end to the violence? Good. Start acting like it.
The 7 of October atrocities would never happen if the UN country members did all they can do to stop the occupation. They could all decide to isolate Israel economically in the first year of Israel occupying Gaza and the west bank.
Before 7 of October the west countries population completely forgot about the 5 decades of occupation. The western leaders continued to support Israel with arms and economical exchange. The Arab countries was going to sign the Abraham accord isolating Palestinians even more , Israel never stopped building new settlements , they armed the settlers and are protecting them from legal persecution when they attack Palestinians. Israel left Gaza military and decided to control it from the outside. That mean Hamas would have never been able to do such a big operation that would shake the world and reminds the west and Arab countries for their duty to stop the occupation which again decide to ignore their duty and think that some smoke screen action would stop the occupation
I don’t think there is a resistance group that didn’t do act of terrorism due to oppression and desperation , technically and in real world you are denying Palestinians from armed resistance given by international laws. Without realizing it you basically adopt the status quo both side did terrible things and occupation will maintain.
I will continue to support the resistance actions of defense against the IDF and condemn the atrocities they did until a better resistance group appear or occupation end. I would call for punishing any person who participated in atrocities once occupation end.
Given the thousands of Palestinians taken hostage by Israel both before and after Oct 7, the vast majority of which are non-combatants and are held in nightmarish conditions. How else would Hamas negotiate for their release except via a hostage exchange? Are they supposed to just give up the only bargaining chip they have?
I don’t appreciate these “what else should they do” questions. I’ve been debating pro-zionist trolls for two years now and I no longer accept even their premise. I’m not going to turn around and apply it to Hamas.
I think holding hostages for the sake of getting your own people back from a genocidal ethnostate is maybe a little more justifiable then Zionist apologia for genocide. But maybe that’s just me.
If we are talking about combatants, sure. I would not flinch a moment. But civilians? Kids? Nah bro, don’t go there.
Ah, well. Better just give up and die then.
Nah, I will go there. Taking settlers who stole your land hostage in order to exchange them for your people being held in Israeli rape jails is acceptable. Sorry not sorry.
Since the steps for Palestinian genocide started before Oct 7, and the IDF has been okay with killing their own hostages in high-yield strikes, not likely.
Considering they’re carpet-bombing the place it’ll be interesting to know if there any hostages left… of course they’ll blame hamas.
The genocidal ideology of zionism is their hegemonic narrative. It’s much bigger than just TV. It’s also the schools, politicians, cops/prisons, compulsory terrorism, etc. Genocide is the basis of their entire “society”.
I don’t think that’s fair, they do absolutely teach Zionism from a young age, but it’s not specifically genocide. Watched an interesting documentary recently about Jews in America and how they’re raised, it’s basically once you get pushed into the IDF THEN the genocide love starts being actively spread.
So they learn to hate from a young age, reinforced by mandatory military service (for both genders, they’re very egalitarian)… and then they grow up to accept genocide… but they’re not taught to be genocidal in school so it’s ok… got it.
Lmfao straw man, when did I once say that it was OK?
I noticed on LinkedIn that a ton of my former colleagues from Israel are now in the US. I think shifting demographics as progressives leave are a bigger part of the story than the shifting opinions these stories have been about.
The wider truth is that anyone who’s remotely sane or empathetic is driven out of the zio regime. I have a friend who grew up under the regime and resisted the mandatory terrorism. He was put in prison, then he was harassed and threatened with death until he fled to USA. This dude is an exceptionally great person and for that reason he was violently forced out.
So whom does that leave over there? Only the most genocidal wackos. Thus, this completely unsurprising poll.
Also work the other way around, Jewish people from around the world that don’t accept the genocide being committed on their name are not going to move to Israel, while tha ones that are OK and support it are more likely to move in and participate directly.
Yeah exactly. I was just thinking my kid will probably never see it because I can’t imagine visiting ever again.
Anyone surprised? Nasi state governed by nazis, who were elected by nazis thinking they are more than others. Fuck israel.
The thing is: I can understand them.
If you are part of a minority that was trampled on for a long, long period of time, being targeted for anhiliation and now, having a somewhat safe nation for not even 80 years within a sea of other nations wanting to destroy them… well, i absolutely can understand them to ensure their safety whatever it takes. Yeah, it may not be pretty (or to be more precise: Often outright gross), it may not be “fair”… but i can understand that they don’t want to take any chances.
Can you also understand if a gaza child ends up blowing himself in a berlin club or does your empathy only extend to the genociders?
Sadly, I can understand that too. My understanding is that most suicide bombers are people with little to no future prospects who are either doing it because thier family will be rewarded in this life, or are convinced by others tgat they will be rewarded in the next life. They also tend to be gullible. Often they are as much a victim as those they kill. The ones we convinced them to do it, and gave them the bomb or what not. Those are the truely evil ones.
Ah yes you have a lot of empathy.
Yes and no. I don’t really feel a lot of empathy. I have just come to realize intellectually that a whole lot of people are manipulated by a very small subset that only cares about itself. It’s a numbers game. Given enough people, thier manipulations will end up producing a few like the people in question. And those people’s only real crime is being easily manipulated. Which probably isn’t thier fault. Telling an easily manipulated person to just not be is like telling a 5’ tall person to be 6’. I chose to focus the majority of my ire on the manipulators.
Well that fear is being exploited by those with more sinister motives.
Just because you can understand how we got here doesn’t mean that it’s ok, or even inevitable.
I think at this moment the total annihilation of one of the two sides is ineviteable, too much blood has been spilled too much atrocities were conducted on both sides.
Oh you so empathetic. I guess you can understand the Hamas attackers on October the 7th, too then? Right?
Oh i can understand them also very well… but this doesn’t change anything. Neither side is “good” or “bad” over there, both sides have very good reasons to keep on fighting.
No, I think the side using starvation tactics and bombing civilians is pretty bad. Sounds like war crimes to me in terms of definition we’ve all agreed upon.
How about the side using suicide bombers and defaulting to terrorism? Shooting unguided rockets into the general direction of a city also does not scream “good guys”, am i right?
Who’s actually using terrorism? Maybe the terrorists that have murdered tens of thousands of children? Expelled people from their homes? Stolen land and still stealing more in several countries?
I can’t even imagine being this dumb. Phony account probably.
Imagine "both sides"ing a genocide. These people are braindead creeps. Not worth engaging.
I agree, but I will add that they are also indoctrinated from a young age to hate or fear the Palestinians. I don’t really think the long history means as much other than an excuse to continue the indoctrination.
I mean if I grew up being told the neighbor was a dangeous crazy heathen that is hell bent on killing me. And that neighbor occasionally threw explosives over the fence. I would want them gone no matter if they had a good reason or what not.
Article is walled, so I couldn’t read it. But I bet the questions were setup to differentiate expelling them from killing them. So I can understand a lot of people wanting the Palestinians gone. That doesn’t mean the same number agree with what is being done to make it happen.
What if they’re throwing explosives because you occasionally murder your neighbors by the dozen?
They’ve been taught from a young age that any they kill isn’t murder, but self defense. I am not saying any of this is right. Just that I can understand how they may feel. Just as I can understand how the other side feels and why they chuck bombs over the fence. In my mind, every death of a civilian to these kinds of activities is a failure of the leaderships involved.
The same could be said for the other side… which is the reason i think this conflict is absolutely hopeless…
Sadly I agree. It probably only ends when one side achieves complete victory. The Israeli hardliners probably see it that way too. And they have decided to end it now.
You feddit.org people no longer even hide that you don’t care about palestinians
I care as much about the Palestinians as i care about the Israelis… from my personal point of view i have as much emotional investment in them as with any other people that kill eachother in other parts of the world, so not very much.
This clown is literally posting “both sides”!!! Disgusting nonsense.
That’s how the majority of feddit.org users are . You never find those type of guys in post about Palestinians getting murdered
No you don’t. If you care about both you would advocate for ending the occupation instead of saying that you understand that some jews want genociding palestinians who has nothing to do with the nazis that almost genocided them .
It’s like you if you where alive during Nate Turner revolt saying I care about both salves and slaves owners
It’s anti-semitic to conflate judaism with zionism. Zionists were collaborating with the nazis and using the holocaust to steal land in palestine during ww2.
I really don’t give a shit
how can you understand them? the israeli state isn’t a ensuring safety for anyone, practically any western nation is safer, unless you are also purely invested in the idea of the state being the condition and site of safety for a nation and blatantly ignoring reality to the point that wishing for ethnic cleansing seems reasonable
which is also known as being a frothing at the mouth fascist
Somehow i have the feeling that i will regret further participating in this conversation, but i feel somewhat masochistic today:
Any western nation is safer because no western nation is surrounded by countries that would happily do to the israelis what the israelis currently are doing to the palestinians. Yes, its unfair and brutal, but as a nation of a people that was selected for annihilation just about 90 years ago i personaly can understand that they are willing to commit every atrocity needed to ensure that nobody will attack them.
Do i LIKE it? Hell no! Would i like a better solution where everyone over there lives in peace? Absolutely! But i can UNDERSTAND why they acting the way they do.
it’s not just unfair and brutal, it’s also completely irrational, israel has sacrficed actual conditions of safety for israeli jews and israelis in general in favour of an image of safety that’s completely worthless outside of being soothing to fascists
roma people were in the exact same camps historically and they don’t seem to be exhibiting the same genocidal attitudes, neither do non-israeli jews, hardship doesn’t necessarily make one a fascist
you should ask yourself why the ideological depravity of israeli society makes sense to you, when it hasn’t led to any good results for anyone
i can understand how they are acting the way they do, as in, what lead to the motives historically, what the ideological undertones of them are; but the why completely eludes me
also, do you actually believe that a ‘better solution’ is possible? or are you just gesturing at futility and imploring people to accept tough realities or whatever
why do you suppose that’s the case now? sentiments towards jewish people in europe were worse than they are in any country neighboring israel
You’re so full of shit. Jews have lived in almost every middle eastern country for millennia. There were Jews living in Palestine before the Zionists came. The “sea of other nations wanting to destroy them” don’t hate Israel because it’s a Jewish country. They hate Israel because it’s a fascist settler colonial state that historically has done ethnic cleansing and territorial expansion. You’re just a Zionazi trying to weaponize antisemitism to justify a literal genocide.
As a Jewish person, genuenly what the fuck are you talking about? The occupation of Palestine is a prime lesson of what not to do as an oppressed people. This is exactly why we need international solidarity, because the rights of one people must never trample over the rights of another.
I can’t trust a poll that claims nearly universal support for a Genocidal government. A phony poll like that would be exactly the kind of propaganda an immoral government would spread.
Here in America, if the MAGA Nazi government claimed 82% supported them, I would literally laugh at it.
Governments like Israel and MAGA can’t be trusted with anything. They are ALWAYS lying.
Well it wasn’t Israel that conducted the survey, it was a group working with the university of Pennsylvania.
If you know anything about the genocidal ideology of zionism, this should be absolutely no surprise. It’s always been like this. Haven’t people watched any interviews with zios? Don’t y’all know any zios? These people are brainwashed racists at best.
I know a Palestinian talking to Israelis on omegle . Most of them are so disgusting and racists.
This new documentary serie is cool youtu.be/AEiL_5h14pY
For years Israel has been running around the world, waving their foes statements about “pushing Israel into the sea” as a call to arms against atrocity.
And now here they are, committing that very atrocity. But genocide seems inevitable when your stated goal is to be an ethnostate.
Wow, highlighting the fact they’re a genocidal theocratic ethnostate without highlighting the good things.
Like how they invented tomatoes hummus and fizzy water, or how good they are at exterminating the brutes!
Clearly just an antisemite. There’s no behavior the jewish people could do that would be good enough for you, short of completely stopping the genocide¹, and abandoning their entire 5000 year old culture, which is suspiciously close to lemkin’s original definition of genocide. Stopping the genocide is genocide. You people just cant stop wanting to genocide jews, can you? Antisemites make me sick.
¹which the hamas people are doing to themselves actually. Tge idf has never been outside the city of jerusalem, and actually mostly just makes music videos, check them out on social media!
Lebensraum
as someone with Israeli friends, I always figured this to be the case. they bemoan having to think about bomb shelters because of the occasional rocket that gets fired over into israel. they legitimately believe that Muslim countries hate them, and Muslims in general want to kill them. they live in the Old testament of the Bible, and anything that happens to Gaza is the will of God. the deaths of Palestineans are not considered a tragedy.
They are not wrong though, there are plenty of Muslims in the surrounding states that believe Jewish people are evil and should be exterminated, not because of anything happening in the real world but because they are being told that they’ll have to fight and kill them during the end times anyway.
Can you elucidate?
The tl;dr is that an antichrist-like figure, the Dajjal, will appear during the end times, leading to a battle between his followers and the righteous. The more extreme interpretations claim that all or almost all Jews will be on the Dajjal’s side. Example:
Other groups mentioned as mostly falling to the Dajjal, depending who you ask, are singers and musicians (because music is sinful I’m assuming), Bedouins, women, Turks and probably many others. It’s just one of these things that lends itself to being instrumentalized.
It’s always some obscure quote from the hadith about some homicidal tree. Most Muslims, like the other Abrahamic faithful, are just trying to stop trans people from having abortions.
Jews are not central to the Dajjal (antichrist) story. It is only mentioned that his army of followers will have tens of thousands of Jews in it coming from the east (could be China, or anywhere between china and the Levant). The foretold events point to a post-“Israel” world.
The “tree” hadith is relevant. And the trees are not magical or “homicidal”. The hadith points to the high-tech military/surveillance apparatus turning on “Israel” at some point (with a single exception). The hadith just drew the picture in a way the people of the time could comprehend.
Between the aftermath of the “State of Israel” experiment, and the supposed appearance of the antichrist, it wouldn’t be surprising if many Jews, especially religious non-Zionist ones, sought refuge and lived among Muslims again, like they always did throughout history. Given the raising extreme vitriol against all Jews, in the west and elsewhere, in part due to the actions of the world Zionist-capitalist cabal, I would say this could be more likely to happen than not. This of course assumes that things will shake out in a way where Muslims, or some of them at least, will actually rule themselves, and the colonially-manufactured client mini-states of today will also be no more.
Maybe that cabal will switch sides at some point and go to China. And that’s how they will become a part of the antichrist movement. Or maybe not. The world could change many time over between the end of “Israel” and the supposed appearance of the antichrist. We don’t know.
My point was that it was a “hadith” quote, as opposed to being from the Quran. Muslims frequently ignore hadith or give them such a wide interpretation as to give them negligible relevance. To simply infer the active beliefs of real Muslim people, or any religious group, from literal interpretations of cherry picked passages of secondary religious texts is ignorant nonsense. (Especially in 2025 when can just ask them directly over a round of Fortnite.)
Even when considering the antichrist stories (which appear in the New Testament), core principles in the Quran state that “believing” Jews, Christians and Muslims (and maybe even unlabelled monotheists) will be rewarded by God (2:62), and warns Muslims against trying to judge or assume “belief” in others (49:12, 4:94). This message also appears throughout the teachings of Jesus (e.g. Matthew 7:1-5), who Muslims consider to be a prophet of God.
Even if we carefully and collectively decide to determine a group as “bad”. We can, and arguably should, do that without recourse to religious prophecy. For example, if we collectively decide (e.g. UN, ICJ, ICC) that the group is carrying out an ethnic cleansing or genocide, based on real world evidence, interpreting a hadith prophecy to support that doesn’t add weight in any objective sense.
Your argument seems to be that the Hadith is totally irrelevant. Hamas and the person you’re replying to seem to think otherwise. Maybe it isn’t irrelevant just because it isn’t in the Quran and has a passage about shouty trees in it? Religions are hardly consistent, especially at the fringes.
The hadith is secondary commentary. It is supposed to be considered (in its historic and underlying Quranic context), rather than followed. As a third party, what can we conclude from reading it in isolation without any real world evidence or reference to the actual Muslim people giving it that consideration? Nothing beyond speculation.
Hamas isn’t real Muslims?
I was speaking generally. Are you talking specifically about Hamas? I think they’re probably upset about a lot more than end of days hadith. What makes you think they have a specific focus on that? Genuine question.
In my experience, I’ve not seen any of the Abrahamic faiths ever focus on end of days in any material literal sense. I’m not that familiar with the typical US Evangelical or Israeli perspective, which is probably relevant. Evidently, they can sometimes interpret “Promised Land” in the literal sense, rather than a metaphor for a state of enlightenment or inner peace or anything like that. So, you might be right.
I’m speaking in the context of this thread, specifically about the situation with Israel, Palestine and the surrounding countries. This Hadith is being used by the more extreme preachers to justify teaching their followers that Jewish people are evil, without necessarily focusing on the end times themselves. It’s just “proof” for their teachings. I am aware that this isn’t a thing for all Muslims everywhere, the Wikipedia articles I linked to also point that out.
In June 2025 are you seriously trying to say that Hamas is motivated by end of days hadith? Palestinians are a marginalised ethnic group, to put it mildly. They don’t need religion for motivation.
I am not saying that, no. But I’m also done with restating what I’m saying over and over only to be hit with another weird interpretation. I’m sorry if you weren’t doing that intentionally but it’s been nothing but frustrating.
plenty of non-Muslims too
What a stupid comment.
Jew lived in yemen - Iraq - Palestine - Egypt - Morocco - Iran for hundred of years. Saying Arab hate jew is propaganda.
The hate is for Israeli and those who supported them through the year while they genocide - destroy villages- cites- farms- didnt allow people to go back home… in fact they kick them out of their own home and allowing an American zionist Jew to just take the land.
They build shelter because they know they are a colony and sooner or later people of the land will attempt to get them back. Not because “Arab hate them”
It’s also starting to get really obvious isn’t it? I mean, you really have to be provincial. I’m actually thinking of moving to the country and trying bigotry for a bit myself. You know, before we’ve missed it completely. It’s just that there’s a really good shawarma place round the corner from us here.
“lived”
I don’t even know what to say to you, but your interpretation of what I wrote is so over the top that I can just assume that you’re trolling. I especially liked the bit where you turned some Muslims into all Arabs, as if they are one and the same and all the same.
Jews lived in these countries not as equal citizens with full rights, but as second class citizens who had to endure centuries of oppression. There’s a reason why the moment Israel formed, all these countries committed some of the worst pogroms in history and expelled their Jewish populations. Around 1 million Jews in the muslim had their property, communities, and citizenship stripped from them for the crime of being Jewish… even though they had no connection to Israel whatsoever. Since Israel was the only place to take to them in, that’s where they ended up going.
Also it’s inaccurate to say “Arabs hate Jews” because Arab is an ethnicity. There are a lot of Arab Jews and being Arab is not tied to any ideology. It’s more accurate to say “mulsims hate Jews” because are tied to an ideology, islam, and the islamic scriptures are very explicit that Jews are evil and should be either killed or treated as second class citizens… hence how the Jews in the countries above were living in such unjust conditions in the countries above prior to the creation of Israel.
Yet Jews had their Golden Age in Spain under Muslim rule and returned to Jerusalem after a 500 year Roman exile after the Muslim conquest of the Levant.
They were lured to Israel but with the exception of Egypt they weren’t expelled. Iraq went as far as prohibiting Jews from leaving and the Mossad did false flag attacks to encourage them to leave secretly.
What golden age lmao? islam is crystal clear that it has to be established as the superior religion of the land and that all the religions under it must be treated as inferior by having them be subjugated to additional restrictions like having to pay a jizya tax and being treated as second class citizens. Btw this only applies to religions that fall under the label of “people of the book”, aka, Abrahamic monotheistic religions. Other religions, like European Paganism or Hinduism didn’t get anything, islam says that they should either be killed, forced to convert to islam, or taken in as slaves.
Until the West started protecting them after WWII, Jews were not treated well for centuries. They’re still not treated well today. Several muslim countries today still don’t allow Jews to live inside their borders.
I’m actually from Iraq so I actually understand what happened more than you. You see, Jews in Iraq were always subject to oppression, discrimination, and violence. Whenever something goes bad in the country, religious and ethnic minorities like Jews, Christians, and Kurds face the wrath of events called “farhud”. The word loosely translates to “looting” but the actual translation is pogrom. A farhud is when you get a huge mob of angry muslims going into minority neighborhoods and towns and destroying everything. They would kill people, kindnap women, destroy their houses/businesses/religious institutions, and they steal anything they can get their hands on. My family comes from an ethnoreligious minority in Iraq (called Mandaeism), and all the minorities in Iraq saw were subject to this type of violence after the 2003 US invasion.
Anyway, when it comes to the Jews in the country, in 1941 they suffered an extremely bad farhud. This was before the establishment of Israel, this was before the end of WWII, and this was during the holocaust. You see, during this time, muslim Arabs in general were very much fond of the Nazis. The Nazis and the muslim Arabs had a lot of shared goals and desires, they both hated the British/French and wanted to see them defeated, they both hated and wanted to exterminate Jews, and they both thought of themselves as superior and wanted to cleanse their lands of minorities.
The thing is at the time, Iraq was ruled by a royal family that was put there by the British, kind of like Jordan is today. This royal family was kind of supportive of the allies and they wanted to maintain a secular order that allows minorities. Iraqi Arab muslims (both sunni and shia) despised that so much so that there was enough support to foster a pro-Nazi fascist coup attempt in 1941. During the coup, the monarch at the time got ousted and was replaced by, Rashid Ali al-Gaylani, the fascist leader of the coup for a few months.
His reign was no stable but still, he had enough power to terrorize the Jews in Iraq. They were constantly subject to intimidation and violence where they would get their houses painted to mark them or told that they were being moved to detention camps asap. After a few months of this, the British sent in support to squash his regime and reestablish the monarchy, and they did. But the fascist regime’s defeat saw the country’s Arab muslim population rage and they accused the Jews and other minorities of supporting the British and their influence.
What ensued was two days of anarchy where the muslim population went into the Jewish neighborhoods of Baghdad (where most of Iraq’s Jews lived) and they committed one of the worst farhud’s in the country’s history. They killed hundreds, they injured thousands, they destroyed entire neighborhoods, and stole everything they could. Most of the Jews in the country either fled to other cities (which also had their own farhuds but not as bad) or to neighboring countries like Iran and Jordan. These people either stayed outside the country as refugees or were forced to go back despite the danger.
The antisemitism in Iraq was very strong even after WWII, and the Jews of the country were traumatized from what they went through so they lived their lives covertly. In the 1950s Mossad started their operations to get Jews to migrate to Israel, and at the time, they had shared interests with the muslims in the country. They both wanted to drive the Jews out of the country no matter what. And so another wave of terrorism took place, and this time the Jews packed their bags and left Iraq for good. Mostly to Israel as it was finally established and was the mos
You may want to reattach your arse. Wikipedia has a whole article about it: en.wikipedia.org/…/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_i…
Contrast that with how non-Jews faired and are fairing under Jewish rule. The Torah instructs the elimination of other people, just read what it says about the Amalekites and Midianites. The Jewish king of Yemen burnt 4000-20000 Christians. Israel today even before the genocide in Gaza subjugated Palestinians to brutal and humiliating rule, where they are imprisoned, tortured and forcefully evicted from their homes.
We are all aware of how brutal Christians have been to non-Christians, I don’t need to cite any examples.
You are engaging in historical revisionism. Jews weren’t persecuted or expelled in Iraq, the Mossad engaged in false flag operations and smuggling of Jews. Zionism and Jewish migration to Palestine predate WW2 and the Holocaust, and the Mossad in various forms was active before 1948. Zionist gangs had already committed massacres against the Palestinians in the 1930s. The Iraqi government tried to prevent Jews from leaving. Iraq at the time was also under British mandate, it wasn’t an independent state. I suggest reading what Avi Shlaim an Iraqi Jewish scholar and historian wrote about it, you seem to be parroting the Zionist narrative without any evidence: currentaffairs.org/…/the-history-of-arab-jews-can…
The Nazis sure, but the Arab Muslims? That’s an ignorant take. You ignore 1500 years of Jewish history in the Arab and Muslim world and the influential role they played. And instead claim Muslims wanted to exterminate Jews based on violence that happened in reaction to Zionism, and use it as justification for Zionism. Completely ignoring the role of false flag attacks in the resulting chaos. middleeasteye.net/…/avi-shlaim-proof-israel-zioni… European Jewish migration to Palestine started before WW2. Zionist violence against Palestinians was already a common occurrence in the 1930s. Zionists were already trying to lure Arab Jews to Palestine before the end of WW2. The only Arab government that expelled its Jews was Egypt as a consequence of the 1967 war after some were caught spying for Israel. Every other Arab government was either ambivalent or tried to stop Jewish migration to Palestine.
How does that justify the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine? Palestinians had no say in the matter. Palestinians don’t owe Jewish people reparations for what happened to them in Egypt, Iraq or elsewhere. Arabs aren’t some generic people. If you were from Iraq, you should know that Iraq on its own is diverse with different factions with varying and conflicting interests. You can’t turn around and claim that Iraqis and Palestinians are generic Arabs and what Iraqis did to Jews, justify the crimes Israel is committing against Palestinians.
Palestine isn’t Iraq. What happened in Iraq doesn’t justify what’s happening in Palestine, even if you insist that the attacks weren’t false flags, which they were.
In the conflict between Israel and Palestine. there’s an aggressor and a victim. A colonizer and a colonized. What happened to Jews in Europe or other countries is not relevant and doesn’t justify the crimes and genocide they inflicted upon Palestinians.
PS: I recommend you read and watch what Avi Shlaim has to say about it. As an Iraqi Jew who has lived through that turbulent time and a historian he is far more qualified than someone who parrots Zionist propaganda and historical revisionism. His accounts are first hand and he is a historian. You repeat the same Zionist argument that justifies brutalizing Palestinians based on what happened in Iraq 80 years ago.
Palestine Talks | Professor Avi Shlaim says “anti-Semitism was an European, not Arab problem”
Did you even read the article? It clearly states what I stated. islam allows religious minorities that fall under “people of the book” label (aka, monotheistic Abrahamic religions) to exist under islam, not as equals but as inferior second class citizens with limited rights. This article just states that the persecution was worse for Jews in Christian Europe, not that things were good in Iberia. There are even a few historians in this very article that argue that this label for this time period doesn’t actually align with reality.
The Farhud of Baghdad, took place in 1941, that’s before the establishment of Israel (1948) and before the end of WWII (19450). Everything that I said, you could easily find in this article or any article about this event:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud
Yes, but Mossad didn’t try to get Jews in other countries to migrate to Israel until after Israel was established after the 1948 war.
And vice versa.
Example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
You keep repeating this like a broken record, but all your doing is demonstrating your ignorance. The Iraq government forbade Jews from emigrating to Israel AFTER the 1948 war. The farhud happened in 1941, that’s 7 years prior. Also, this policy last two years and the Iraqi government reversed it in 1950, this was the called de-naturalization law
scholarlypublishingcollective.org/…/The-Denationa…
The British mandate ended in 1932. Again, you keep spreading misinformation that can easily be fact checked with a single 10 second google search.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_Iraq
He was born in 1945, the farhud happened in 1941. I know for a fact you didn’t read his memoir and you have no idea who this guy is. It doesn’t take an acadmic to figure that the article you posted is propaganda that bastardized his work. First of all, his memoir, Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew, mainly talks about the events AFTER 1948 when Israel was established and he talks about how he and his family were forced to migrate to Israel 1951 (He was 6 at the time). He states that during this time, Mossad was did a bunch of operations that tried to force Jews to migrate to Israel, and if you actually scroll up and read, you’ll see that I have mentioned all of these details.
Don’t call something ignorant when you have no idea what you’re talking about. This isn’t some hidden secret or some controversial opinion, it’s literally fact. You can scroll through this list or the lists that continue it and find hundreds of examples of the Arab muslim world trying to get rid of Jews:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism
This is also relevant:
en.wikipedia.org/…/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany…
That’s precisely the issue, you’re ignoring 1400 (that’s how old islam is) of history for a bullshit narrative that’s not based in reality. This is a good example of that. The Farhud in Baghdad had NOTHING to do with zionism. You’re such a dunce that you cannot comprehend that antisemtism in the muslim world has existed LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG before the creation of Israel, and I literally gave you an example with the farh
Jee I wonder what could have happened that made them hate jews that much. You know, the same jews who used to live in north africa for milleniums without anybody killing them
Israel is an existential threat to its neighbors. The hate isn’t irrational. It’s perfectly reasonable.
And Palestine is being ethnically cleansed and genocided by the same apocalyptic Jewish and Christian thinking. Religious apocalypticism aside, in Palestine there is a clear victim and aggressor. You don’t even have to take my words for it. Take Israel’s first prime minister’s words:
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
Uh, no. They live in the living memory of the Six-Day War. I’m not going to defend the behavior of the current Israeli government, but in no way are they just living out the biases the Old Testament when they think neighboring Arab states are antagonistic to them. They remember 1967, and if you think that all neighboring Arab states have done a 180 from where they were then, you’re very much wrong.
1967 is notably two decades into the ethnonationalist colonial project that displaced many Palestinians from their homes.
You picked a bad start date for Arab/Jewish trouble in Palestine. You also appear to ignore how the other Arab states screwed over the Palestinians to keep them desperate.
But I didn’t comment to debate this. I commented to disabuse the notion that Israel is using the Iron Age to think what they think. Neither are the Arabs.
But they are stuck in the Iron Age. They believe God gave them Palestine.
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
[emphasis mine]
The 1967 war was preemptive. Israel started it. Then again, they also started the 1948 war in November 1947 months before Arab armies got involved.
theintercept.com/…/a-50-year-occupation-israels-s…
“they legitimately believe that Muslim countries hate them, and Muslims in general want to kill them”
Do you have any experience with the press in their neighboring countries? There are absolutely some sources pushing this narrative in the opinion sections from time to time. I used to read The Daily Star (Lebanon) to follow Israeli news from a non-Israeli perspective and would see this in that paper a few times a year.
By no means am I suggesting that the billions of Muslims uniformly want to kill Israelis but the percentage that does isn’t zero.
Yet Jews had their Golden Age in Spain during Muslim rule before the Reconquista.
This hate is easily explained by reading what Zionist leaders have said themselves:
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
IMO A kid from Palestine put it best in my first IR class “Why did my grandparents have to lose their home and everything in it because of European anti-semitism?”
On the other hand, Israel is an existential threat to every nation around it. If there was an aggressive theocratic ethnostate expansionist threatening your border, wouldn’t you hate them?
Israel doesn’t just want Palestine. They want the West Bank, Gaza, and all or large chunks of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. Expelling the Gazans from Gaza won’t solve this. The Israelis want to do the following:
Expel the Gazans just over the border into shanty towns in neighboring countries.
Some displaced people in those areas will inevitably sneak back over the border to carry out revenge attacks against the people that stole their homes.
When (2) happens, use that as a justification to invade neighboring countries and seize additional land.
Israel has been slowly expanding its borders this way for decades. They seize an area of land, declare it a military buffer zone, but then let their civilians move into the buffer zone. They use their own population as human shields, putting them in danger of attacks by displaced Arabs. Then when this happens, they use this as an excuse to expand their borders further.
If you had a psychopathic country for a neighbor, that intended to slowly gobble up your own nation bit by bit, wouldn’t you want them all dead?
Israel isn’t a theocratic state. Im not sure why you would even suggest that it was as their PM is not a religious figure.
Pedantry is the last refuge of the ignorant.
Im not being pedantic. If you think Israel is a theocratic state you have no idea what a theocracy is. If your understanding of philosophy is so underdeveloped what value could your opinion have?
This is plausible, but not entirely without a reason. I stopped taking sides in this mess long ago.
Yeah to be fair this is true, and I bet a lot of the Palestinians would wish for all the Israelis to leave
Wouldn’t you? I don’t think anyone would be okay with being relegated to less than 20% of their land by foreign invaders
To be fair, the Palestinians had not choice in their occupying force and would have realised any group taking their land and displacing them.
Jews and Muslims have had many extensive periods of peace living together (including in Palestine before the state of Israel). The story of Islamic-Jewish hostilities is actually fairly recent and shorter than you’d expect.
Antisemitism as we know it today is mostly a European export to the Middle East.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938
Counter-argument: 7oct attacks wasn’t a defense operation. Before you tell me that it was a revenge or “didn’t happen in a vacuum”, then, again, this is why I refuse to take a clear side as both sides have done terrible things. I’d understand them hitting settlers, but fucking tourists enjoying a concert? Naah. Let them fight it out, I have problems of my own (I’m from East Europe with looming russian invasion)
You’d be wrong though. Hamas targeted soldiers not tourists. You are blaming the deaths resulting from the Hannibal Directive on Hamas.
timesofisrael.com/idf-officers-invoked-defunct-ha…
www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-07/…/104224430
ndtv.com/…/yoav-gallant-admits-to-authorising-han…
Putting Hannibal Directive aside. Let’s say if Russian troops occupied your country for a number of years or decades and eventually hosted a concert on your former hometown, then some resistance group ended up killing some tourists at the concert during the crossfire. Would you be both-siding it?
Let’s assume you would view both sides: the invaders and the resistance as bad, would that justify a genocide?
Honestly, as a history buff, you don’t make much sense to me. Look up what Roman empire did in that region and how name Palestine came to be (around 300ce). You might realize how calling me wrong in that context is pretty ignorant. I’m staying centric.
Another fun reading for you: …wikipedia.org/…/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Ju…
How is this relevant to 2025? But because you brought it up, here’s a quote by none other than Israel’s first prime minister.
Also the Roman Exile ended with the Muslim conquest of the Levant.
So how again are you staying a centrist on a genocide of the indigenous peoples by foreign settlers? Mr./Mrs. History Buff? Does it make sense to go near 2000 years to justify a genocide when the modern settlers aren’t even from the region? Would you do the same and say Russians are Balto-Slavic people and returning to their ancestral lands? There’s more a more recent genetic and historical presence in Eastern Europe for Russians than there is for Zionist settlers in Palestine.
The origin and migration of Slavs in Europe between the 5th and 10th centuries AD:
<img alt="" src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/The_origin_and_dispersion_of_Slavs_in_the_5-10th_centuries.png">
Because it borderline sounded like you claimed Jews simply appeared there during WW2 and started occupying whatever they could. That is factually wrong as there is a deep Jewish history to said region. And before you throw some genetic argument at me about how those are Europeans that migrated here, understand that Jews are ethnoreligious group, not a genetic group like slavs. It doesn’t matter if you, a muslim, were born in opposite side of the world. There is a place where it will be always sacred for you, a home, written in blood and history, a home disregarded by many, but then those many keep finding Jewish artifacts there.
Your upcoming quote pretty much confirmed what I’m trying to say.
I was quite clear about “both sides are terrible”. That is in no way justification for any of their actions, it roughly translates to “This shit is fucked up so hard from all sides that I can’t get morally invested in this for my own sanity and rather focus on my own region”. If you actually assumed that I’m supporting Israel’s actions, then you haven’t been following what I’m saying.
But the thing is, that argument is never used in real life, by anyone, and so you’re not hearing counter-arguments. No one is saying that Russia wants to take over Baltics because genetic or historical presence. That is simply not an argument here, and I don’t think you fully understand what “Slav” is, as it’s not some Russian origins. At least I’m not aware of it. I also never claimed that about Israel and Gaza (you keep assuming things, falsely). Israel has expanded far beyond what is theirs.
It started before WW2, but that’s basically what happened. It is a colonizing mission and they admit it themselves.
It does matter. Muslims from Malaysia or wherever have no right to expel the indigenous people of Makkah and Medina if one day they converted to another religion. Just because they Zionist invaders are Jews doesn’t give them a right to colonize Palestine. Palestinians don’t lose their right to their ancestral lands because they are no longer practicing Judaism or Christianity. It is not a sensible argument. Would neo-pagans who worship Zeus have a right to expel Greeks because the majority of Greeks today are Christian? Zionist settlers have no legal or historical right to Palestine.
So Russians only need to make the argument for them to have the right to colonize the rest of Eastern Europe? Russians are Slavs who speak a Slavic language.
None of it is theirs. European, Iranian, Amazigh and Indian settlers reviving Hebrew and practicing Judaism are still not indigenous to Palestine and have no claims to it whatsoever.
Are you AI? Because you keep repeating things I was pretty clear about I don’t support. Ie. For the third time, I never said I support their colonization, yet you keep talking about it. You also keep downvoting all my comments, yet I never downvoted not even one from you. Sorry, but I do not feel like engaging with you any further as you seem toxic and not clear-headed.
This just in: The country that has been doing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians for 77 years is still okay with doing ethnic cleansing.
There’s some weird looking Haredi Jews waving their arms and blabbering something about Materialism in that 18 percent.
They’ve literally been doing this shit since they pushed the Palestinians out of the way almost eighty fucking years ago. Of course the population is okay with it.
It’s an oversimplification, but it’s like an older brother and a younger brother sharing a room. They hate each other. They’re always messing with each other’s stuff. The older brother knows better, but he’s angry and tends to be abusive. The younger brother knows he shouldn’t pick a fight, but can’t help himself. They’ve both been fighting so long that each feels justified in hurting the other.
Who’s at fault is the wrong question. Is it the 7 year old? He’s 7. Is it the 12 year old? He’s a kid too, just bigger and stronger. Both lack the maturity and empathy to be in charge and have the run of things. They’ve both proven they’re entirely incapable of being fair or kind to each other.
It’s the parents’ fault for letting it happen. Or in this case, enabling both kids and giving them tips and tricks for how to fight better.
We can’t expects Israel or Palestine to be the adults in the room. They aren’t. They can’t. We can’t expect ourselves to be the adults in the room. We’re watching these kids beat themselves bloody for our amusement.
Until someone puts their foot down and says enough is enough, nothing will change, but the person who says that and lays down their weapons probably gets killed. So this won’t end until one side exterminates the other.
It’s spooky how accurate this analogy is
It’s not accurate in the slightest.
It’s a genuinely disgusting mischaracterization of violent dispossession and genocide as some kind of sibling rivalry.
This is not an argument between family! Palestinian people are being maimed, tortured, starved, and killed! They have been subjected to relentless oppression, occupation, and brutality under an internationally recognized system of apartheid for decades. The perpetrators of these heinous crimes do not need a stern talking to from a parent, they need to be brought to justice.
What is happening now is the culmination of years of this sort of dismissive patronizing bullshit framing of some of the most despicable things humans can do to others. The genocidal intent motivating these acts is spoken openly and plainly by zionist officials and media, and all foreign backers have made it abundantly clear that they will do their part to try to sanitize and legitimize these horrific crimes.
A reckoning will come, and absolutely no one who sided with israel, in virtually any capacity, will be able to claim ignorance nor innocence. Every one will be remembered for their role in supporting these sadistic genocidal child murderers.
I mean if your only source of information on this conflict Al Jazeera then maybe, but if you actually look through the history of this region you would quickly understand that this is a gross oversimplification that ignores a lot of context.
It ignores all the previous wars, all the tensions during the British mandate, the tensions during the Ottoman Empire, how the modern states came to be, how they developed their identities, the involvement of other countries in the region, the involvement of distant foreign powers, the insane amount of ethnic cleansing carried out not just in both of these states but also in the wider region as a consequence of that events that took place in this region.
The point is that there is a lot that led us to this point, and it’s neither accurate or helpful to boil to replace history with a narrative. We can have an honest discussion about the current situation where we can agree to condemn the atrocities taking place right now, agree that the people responsible should be brought to justice, while also acknowledging the historical reality. From that point of view, I see this analogy as oversimplified, but still accurate tug of war between the two where neither wants to let go of the rope until the other completely loses.
You don’t need Aljazeera to know the truth, just read what Zionist wrote and said themselves. The following is a quote by Jabotinsky:
“[It is the] iron law of every colonizing movement, a law which knows of no exceptions, a law which existed in all times and under all circumstances. If you wish to colonize a land in which people are already living, you must provide a garrison on your behalf. Or else – or else, give up your colonization, for without an armed force which will render physically impossible any attempts to destroy or prevent this colonization, colonization is impossible, not “difficult”, not “dangerous” but IMPOSSIBLE! … Zionism is a colonizing adventure and therefore it stands or falls by the question of armed force. It is important to build, it is important to speak Hebrew, but, unfortunately, it is even more important to be able to shoot – or else I am through with playing at colonialization.”
As quoted by Lenni Brenner, in The Iron Wall: Zionist Revisionism from Jabotinsky to Shamir (1984), where the quotation is cited as being from “The Iron Law”
There’s more quotes by other Zionists that make no doubt that Israelis are the aggressors and Palestinians are the victims. There’s no two sides to colonialism and ethnic cleansing.
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenni_Brenner
Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ze'ev_Jabotinsky#Early_life
Yeah, I don’t care what some activist who has clear biases wrote about some other activist who also has clear biases but in the other direction . We’re talking about isn’t about ideology, but how the actual history unfolded, what events ended up taking place, and how those events lead us to today. My point is that the actual history that took place is beyond of the scope of ideological framing. The reality is more complex then you give it credit.
Would you rather read it from a Zionist? How do you feel about the first Israeli prime minister?
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.
One more by the same person:
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.” — David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.
And fuck him, all I am saying is that the history that led up today is more complex than you people are making it out to be. From Israel’s foundation until today, there is a lot that happened that wasn’t foreseen by this guy or anybody. It’s like how the US was founded similar principles but ended up being something that’s vastly different from it’s founders imagined, the same goes for other places like Turkey or New Zealand or Brazil or even Palestine. You can’t boil down one of the world’s oldest regions with the richest history during one it’s most turbulent times to a narrative made by western activists who boil down everything to “this side good that side bad lol”, that’s ignorance.
The ridiculous thing is that by acknowledging you have no idea how foundational Jabotinsky was to the genesis of the state of israel, you’ve revealed how little of the history you actually know and understand.
There is a direct line from Jabotinsky and Irgun to Menachem Begin, a former prime minister who was a member of Irgun and who later founded Herut, which eventually transformed into Likud, which is literally the current ruling party of the state with Netanyahu at its helm.
These are not fringe figures, revisionist zionism has been the dominant tendency for decades by this point, though it has intensified and become even more vicious and genocidal as the war on terror gave them ample cover and support for their brutality.
You insist it is complicated but clearly have no idea how uncomplicated it really is. The first zionist congress was in 1897, and the zionist occupation of Palestine began shortly after. Colonization started at a trickle but ramped up during the british mandate period. By the time israel declared independence, it had already been engaging in ethnic cleansing campaigns and massacres for years.
Do you not understand that israelis today very literally live in stolen homes, and are in the process of actively stealing and demolishing homes throughout the entire region? Every week more people have their homes and crops taken or destroyed by settlers, settlers who poison their livestock and take chainsaws to olive groves that have existed for centuries. Settlers who routinely attack and terrorize Palestinians under the watchful eyes of the occupation forces, who will step in to detain or murder Palestinians that resist in any capacity. Settler who have planted millions of european trees over the ruins of Palestinian villages to try to cover their crimes.
It has never not been a settler colonial project in service of creating an ethnostate. It has never not been rooted in violent dispossession and ethnic cleansing. There have been figures and groups that sought to soften the brutality, some early on that even had more of a vision of peaceful coexistance with the indigenous population, but that has never been a real manifestation of the zionist project.
While all history has complexity and nuance, it is not so complicated that we can’t see a very clear and consistent aggressor and occupier, alongside resistance to it which has been routinely portrayed as somehow unjustified. If you really think it’s complicated, I’d wager you’ve literally never even attempted to understand the history from the perspective of Palestinians. If you had, you wouldn’t be saying any of this shit. Do yourself a favor and learn so you stop being a part of the problem.
If you would like something to read, a good and free place to start would be this chapter of israeli historian Avi Shlaim’s book “Genocide in Gaza: Israel’s Long War on Palestine”, which is publicly available right here.
Some relevant excerpts about Jabotinsky specifically:
and later
And I’ll say it again, you’re not speaking history, you’re speaking narrative and ideology. You don’t seem to understand that it doesn’t matter what the founding ideology is, what matters is what actually happened. The fact that you think you can boil this conflict down to “good vs bad” shows that your ignorance on the subject. There are a lot of conflicts in history that could be that simple, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is a good example, but this is not one of those conflicts.
History is meant to be something that’s factual, because you’re retelling what happened. You’re not supposed to be taking sides and digest information from the perspective of a side, that defeats the whole purpose of being objective.
I’ll give you an example, during the 20th century, around 1 million Jews in the muslim world were forced out from their countries for no other reason than being Jewish. These people didn’t do anything wrong, they had nothing to do with the creation of Israel but they found themselves stripped of their property, communities (some of which are thousands of years old) and were forced to go there as that was the only place that would accept them. These people are as much victims as the victims of the Nakba, except this was even larger in scale… yet people like you don’t even acknowledge it’s existence.
Here’s another example, before the creation of Israel and Palestine, the British Mandate had a population of around 750k in the 1920s, and around 10% of those were Jewish. Those Jews were very religious, as opposed to many zionist Jews that migrated there. These Jews were vocal against the creation of Israel, but they became citizens anyway when Israel was established. Those Jews also happen to be from sects that have consistently had the highest birthrates over the decades, and so their descendants today can trace their roots back for thousands of years having never left the region. These people clearly don’t fit the narrative you are trying to paint, but again, you don’t acknowledge their existence.
Here’s yet another example, the Palestinian national identity formed around in the 1920s and 1930s, around the same time the Israeli national identity formed, and both became official after the 1947 partition plan. Prior to the British Mandate, there was no such thing as a Palestinian nation. The term “Palestine” was a colloquial one that loosely referred to the region that made up the “holy land”. The borders and identity that we associate with Palestine today didn’t exist during the Ottoman period, these are literally British inventions. The region was divided differently and the people there saw themselves differently. The region was filled with Turks, Jews, Christians, Arabs, and bunch of other ethnic and religious groups. They all saw themselves as natives to the region and they primarily identified with their ethnic/religious group first and then as Ottoman second. The same applies to Mamluks before the Ottoman Empire. In this case, the Arabs in the region saw themselves as a part of al bilad al sham (the Levant or greater Syria) which was a part of al ummah al arrabiya (the Arab nation). This is because until the British and the French drew random borders, the Arab world saw itself as a single nation. When people talk about the native nation of Palestine, they have no idea what they’re talking about.
I could keep going, but you get the idea. Like I said, it doesn’t matter how something was intended to happen, what matters was what actually happened. These are all events things that were not foreseen by Zionist philosophers living in god knows where. This is precisely why you can’t develop narratives based on narratives, what you will end up with is a distorted image of reality. I agree with you that what the Israeli government today is doing in Gaza and the West Bank is reprehensible and I agree with you that Zionist philosophers were pro-colonialism, but what I am saying is that only using these two points of the regions history or using a single perspective (especially a biased one) will blind to everything else that happened.
And yet, for all your snowjob bullshit, there is one people in chains and another people putting them in chains. I don’t give a shit what the history is. No one has the right to do that to someone else. The Nazis had a long list of historical grievances against their Jewish population. You would have been right there on the side of the Nazis, saying that while you don’t support them necessarily, you fully understand what Hitler is trying to accomplish.
We can condemn the Israeli government’s reprehensible actions without using historical revisionism to drive narratives. Also history matters, how else are we supposed to understand why things are the way they if we don’t even bother understand what led up to them in an objective manner?
That’s some colossal bullshit. It’s the other way around. The Nazis were notorious for historical revisionism and crafting propaganda narratives that misrepresented history and boiled down all the complexity and nuance to just “Jews bad”. That’s why they blamed Jews for everything. If the Nazis understood history, then they would’ve known that their decisions would’ve led to their demise. You don’t seem to understand that no cause is noble enough to justify dishonest representations of reality. This applies to both Israel and Palestine.
more like a homeless guy coming into a child a house, kicking the family into the basement, feeding them scraps, and when he wants to make a game room in the basement coming down to torture/kill them all.
sometimes the starving family downstairs complain, and in response, he just kills a random family member, you know, seems fair.
and all the neighbours side when the psycho invader, and blame the family for complaining and not thinking about the poor guy who regularly tortures them. because he’s a human too.
This is the bit that I’ve had a hard time with. And, to put it in less snide allegorical terms: Israel is in many ways the “invader”. They took land, took homes, that weren’t theirs. That invasion has been justified through massive harm to their people, and the need for a “safe space” they can call their own. But while that’s the in-person justification by individuals, the backroom justification used to ship the weapons is achieving a “Western presence” in the middle east.
Something the Jewish community might not get is: They’re not the only group that’s been targeted for hate throughout history. The holocaust didn’t even specifically target jews. We don’t get to make a “Transgender state”, or a “Black American state”, and especially not displace others for that. In some ways the world needs to accept that, whether by 10 miles or 100, we’ll still be neighbors on this planet and not totally unreachable. Set that distance, and it means you only get boiling points like 9/11 rather than shots fired in a neighborhood.
🤨🤔
Split semantics on exact wording if you’d like. A better word might be “solely”. The Nazi party collected anyone of a variety of demographics they didn’t like, including foreigners, LGBT, physically/mentally disabled, scholars, etc.
a trans state would be dope.
but make sure to differentiate the Jewish community and the zionists/Israel community.
although a lot of Jews support Israel. lots are speaking against it, some of the loudest anti zionists Voices are Jewish, from Chomsky, Finkelstein, JVP, btselem…
no one has the right to an ethnostate
the sad reality is that lots of refugees fleed to Palestine, but instead of being refugees, they wanted to be colonizers.
Can we just kick everyone out of Wyoming and make Wyoming the trans state?
not sure why Wyoming, but go ahead
Eh, it’s the least populace US state. Plus, who doesn’t like mountains?
Because Wyoming not?
This is gross. Israel invaded and occupied Palestine. The people of Gaza were driven there by ethnic cleansing, a wall was built around them, and they have been starved of food, water, and medicine for years before fighting back.
Israel wants to finish cleansing the land of Palestinians. Palestinians want to end the state of Israel and return to their homes. Only one of these requires exterminating the other side.
This an incredibly fucking stupid post. You’re so off base it would be funny if there wasn’t an ongoing genocide happening while you’re here brushing off Isreals warcrimes with a moronic analogy.
Palestinians and Israelis aren’t brothers though. One is indigenous fighting for his land and the other is a settler on an apocalyptic colonizing mission because he claims God gave it to him 2500 years ago.
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. … Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.”
— David Ben Gurion. Quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938
Your comment tldr: “You guys don’t get it; they’re both bad”
and then everyone clapped for you. /s
Eat shit.
Nah this is like if you are the parent of an adult child. They have a rough time. They get burned by a series of landlords who screw them over, take advantage of them, and seriously harm their well being. For whatever reason, they decide that instead of renting, their best option is to go squat in their childhood home. It was sold years ago and currently occupied, but they decided they’re just going to force their way in at gunpoint, take over part of the house, and slowly take over more and more of it. You think this is a great idea, and you gladly provide them with weapons and ammo so they can occupy their childhood home.
100%
except there’s a bit of tragedy
Palestinians are in large part the Jews who stayed there and later converted.
so it’s more like your childhood home is housing your brother and his family. you take over it at gunpoint and act like they never existed
Yeah we shouldn’t give guns to children.
Americans: (gasp)
You build a state out of colonialism, you get a state of colonialists.
There is no both siding this, the Zionists are genocidal and there are no good zionists. This should be shocking to nobody. Im Jewish and ill say this as many times as I need to
ANTIZIONISM IS NOT ANTISEMITISM
When this voluntary migration plan succeeds and the world becomes a beautiful terrorism free utopia, you antizionists are going to look pretty stupid.
Edit: Wait!!! Are you about to downvote me because you’re a zionist, an antizionist who doesn’t understand irony, or something else? I can’t not know!
Ok reactionary
I support expelling israelis.