encelado748@feddit.org
on 05 Jul 21:51
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Ignoring how disgusting it is to minimize the deaths of the victims in a war of imperial aggression, the Russia war against Ukraine caused up to 8 times the number of dead of the genocide in Gaza after October 7th.
mrdown@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 05 Jul 22:07
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Gaza has no air defenses, ukraine has
master_of_unlocking@piefed.zip
on 05 Jul 23:00
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How many people have to die before it’s ok to care about it? Is Gaza the baseline?
EvergreenGuru@lemmy.world
on 05 Jul 23:23
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If you want to compare the civilian deaths in Gaza’s genocide to military deaths in Ukraine’s war, you can. It’s dishonest, but you can.
My perspective is that the Ukrainians brought this upon themselves, first by overthrowing their democracy, second by failing to abide by the Minsk agreements, and lastly by threatening Russia by attempting to join NATO and claiming that they have the right to obtain nuclear weapons.
Each one on its own is insane, but together it’s hard to have any sympathy for Ukraine when their government has chosen to escalate at every opportunity.
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 05 Jul 23:36
nextcollapse
You’re the one who brought up gaza.
Russia invaded. Russia is welcome to fuck off whenever they’re tired of throwing soldiers into the meat grinder. I have all the sympathy for the people in Ukraine who are fighting off Putin’s war of aggression.
Lastly, eat shit.
EvergreenGuru@lemmy.world
on 06 Jul 01:41
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“Putin’s war.”
You’re an idiot. This is a US proxy war started by Washington and targeting Russia. Ukraine is just a vassal of empire and their fate is decided by their imperial backers.
Cyv_@lemmy.blahaj.zone
on 06 Jul 02:34
nextcollapse
That might be facts, but that’s not the whole story. History did not begin with the invasion. That narrative is not dissimilar to trying to pinpoint the Palestinian genocide to the singular event of Oct 7. There‘s precursors and reasons for what happened and ignoring them does in fact distort the picture heavily.
You’re thinking through an Us vs Them mentality, a bogeyman, and by that start to dismiss any narrative that contradicts ours.
Of course, you can ignore them, or discredit anyone that works to take this conflict seriously. Or, careful, you yourself start taking „the other side“, „the enemy“ seriously, for example that Russia as sovereign regional power might be having legitimate interests and red lines, but also take seriously what the other involved parties say and do. For example, on our side: censorship, repression, fueling the war, prolonging the war, avoiding diplomacy, weaken asylum for Ukrainians, that fled the war, so they can be directly deported back into the meat grinder.
On our side opposing narratives are systemically oppressed, for example by sanctioning journalists into absolute inability to live, like Hüseyin Doğru (who got sanctioned for his Palestine coverage with counterfactual reasoning in regards to Russia) or Jacques Baud. A recent court ruling now also actively criminalizes the reproduction/sharing of sanctioned content (like from RT, even if factual), so it‘s not enough to censor the media of the enemy in order to force you to only feed on one side. No, now individuals that share information from the other side’s perspective, can be jailed for up to five years. Opposing narratives in regards to the barbarian Israeli state is oppresed in Germany and the UK, already.
But ignoring the roles of NATO in the making and maintenance of this war, ignoring the US‘ involvement in the coup, ignoring the fascist currents in the Ukrainian military and government, ignoring the forced subscription of their own citizens … ah whatever … you‘ve got to realize that this is not a game, right?
Also, how does it compute for you, that our side is complicit in the Palestinian genocide and fascist Israel‘s Lebensraum expansion and Apartheid regime, but on the Ukrainian issue suddenly we‘re the good guys or have no involvement or interests? That‘s straight up dumb.
That narrative is not dissimilar to trying to pinpoint the Palestinian genocide to the singular event of Oct 7.
Ohh do you want to include the event where it all started with when the Arab nation trying to chase the jews out and prevent them to set up Israel, which lead to a war that the Arab nation regreted to this day and also the annexation of Palestine to this day? Because no i don’t want to do that. I look at the current event as see who’re the bastard that did the annexation as of now, to look far back mean to muddy the opinion, because history is complicated, and people who play that card is meant to complicate thing and soften the opinion against them. If NATO is the one causing this war, why did Russia not giving back Crimea after the conflict calm down? Why did they continue to invade and takeover someone else land when Ukraine haven’t even yet enter the alliance? Or do you believe Russia is still the rightful owner of Ukraine due to the Soviet Onion and they’re merely taking back?
ignoring the fascist currents in the Ukrainian military and government
What does that have to do with the invasion? Are you really believe this is a “military operation” to get rid of Nazi? This is like saying Iraq deserved to be invade because of terrorist.
ignoring the forced subscription of their own citizens
And what caused this? What do you have to say about Putin’s conscription of his own citizen?
Also, “our side”? That is your side, not “our side” because i don’t stand with whatever government you have if you think “our side” are pro-israel. I’m not playing a game, i’m stating an opinion on who’s wrong.
Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca
on 06 Jul 00:00
nextcollapse
first by overthrowing their democracy
They didn’t. They legally removed a Russian agent that was passing a series of very antidemocratic laws.
threatening Russia by attempting to join NATO
Joining a defensive alliance is only a threat to an aggressor, so thanks for your admission I guess.
and claiming that they have the right to obtain nuclear weapons.
They wouldn’t have of Russia hadn’t invaded
It’s all 100% on Russia.
But you know that already. That’s the worst part. You’re not misinformed, you’re a liar.
EvergreenGuru@lemmy.world
on 06 Jul 01:25
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This is bad counter-propaganda, as you’re lying about the basic facts. Also, you totally skipped over the Minsk Agreement, which Ukraine agreed to and then refused to enforce. They had a peace agreement and then decided to ignore it and escalate. That proves they were acting in bad faith the whole time.
Also, it was a given that Russia would invade as soon as Ukraine tried to use NATO to continue breaking the Minsk Agreement. NATO is an aggressive military alliance that has sought to encircle Russia since the USSR collapsed, and allowing a NATO country to emerge within bombing range of Moscow was a non-starter. Again, Ukraine never wanted peace. They wanted and chose escalation.
timbuck2themoon@sh.itjust.works
on 06 Jul 01:51
nextcollapse
You really should just create a new username on Lemmy.ml. they’d love you there. Fit right in.
Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca
on 06 Jul 02:00
nextcollapse
NATO is an aggressive military alliance that has sought to encircle Russia since the USSR collapsed
Again, only aggressive if Russia has territorial ambitions on its neighbours. Otherwise completely benign. The fact that you consider it aggressive betrays the fact that you know Russia has had territorial ambitions against its neighbours from the start. Making everything else useless verbal diarrhea.
It also betrays your imperialist way of thinking, denying Russia’s neighbours their sovereign right to join whichever military alliance they choose.
EvergreenGuru@lemmy.world
on 06 Jul 02:19
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First, the United States undermined Ukrainian sovereignty by sponsoring a coup. It was US imperial ambitions which turned Ukraine into a battlefield.
Also, the United States is the head of NATO, and has said they’re open to a nuclear first strike. Of course Russia wouldn’t allow a NATO affiliated country on their border which would could make a nuclear strike so fast Russia would be unable to respond. Nuclear deterrence only works if you can mutually assure destruction and catastrophic losses on BOTH sides. If Russia can’t respond, then that’s just blackmail.
Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca
on 06 Jul 03:01
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First, the United States undermined Ukrainian sovereignty by sponsoring a coup.
Same lie as before, there was no coup.
Nuclear blahblah
Look at a fucking map. Ukraine is only marginally closer to Moscow than Latvia. And by the same logic Russia should have invaded Finland before they could join NATO right next to Saint Petersburg but they didn’t, because it’s all complete bullshit and lies.
Just fucking stop.
belastend@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 06 Jul 06:13
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Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for sovereignty and the freedom to choose their alliances.
blartcap_@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 06 Jul 02:46
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You:
If you want to compare the civilian deaths in Gaza’s genocide to military deaths in Ukraine’s war, you can. It’s dishonest, but you can.
Also you:
Only 30? Ukrainians make it sound as if they live in Gaza with how much they go on about Russian aggression.
Yes, all part of the “40 days and 40 nights” campaign Zelenskyj announced about a week ago.
There was much speculation about if the Flamingo missile worked and if Ukraine was even making them.
But now they are in action. They are both being made and they work. 👍 😎
threaded - newest
Ignoring how disgusting it is to minimize the deaths of the victims in a war of imperial aggression, the Russia war against Ukraine caused up to 8 times the number of dead of the genocide in Gaza after October 7th.
Gaza has no air defenses, ukraine has
How many people have to die before it’s ok to care about it? Is Gaza the baseline?
If you want to compare the civilian deaths in Gaza’s genocide to military deaths in Ukraine’s war, you can. It’s dishonest, but you can.
My perspective is that the Ukrainians brought this upon themselves, first by overthrowing their democracy, second by failing to abide by the Minsk agreements, and lastly by threatening Russia by attempting to join NATO and claiming that they have the right to obtain nuclear weapons.
Each one on its own is insane, but together it’s hard to have any sympathy for Ukraine when their government has chosen to escalate at every opportunity.
You’re the one who brought up gaza.
Russia invaded. Russia is welcome to fuck off whenever they’re tired of throwing soldiers into the meat grinder. I have all the sympathy for the people in Ukraine who are fighting off Putin’s war of aggression.
Lastly, eat shit.
“Putin’s war.”
You’re an idiot. This is a US proxy war started by Washington and targeting Russia. Ukraine is just a vassal of empire and their fate is decided by their imperial backers.
Lol. Lmao even.
Hope the troll farms pay well.
🙈🙉🙊
The fact remained that Russia invaded and annexed Crimea, and now invaded east Ukraine. No matter what you believe in, the fact never change.
That might be facts, but that’s not the whole story. History did not begin with the invasion. That narrative is not dissimilar to trying to pinpoint the Palestinian genocide to the singular event of Oct 7. There‘s precursors and reasons for what happened and ignoring them does in fact distort the picture heavily.
You’re thinking through an Us vs Them mentality, a bogeyman, and by that start to dismiss any narrative that contradicts ours. Of course, you can ignore them, or discredit anyone that works to take this conflict seriously. Or, careful, you yourself start taking „the other side“, „the enemy“ seriously, for example that Russia as sovereign regional power might be having legitimate interests and red lines, but also take seriously what the other involved parties say and do. For example, on our side: censorship, repression, fueling the war, prolonging the war, avoiding diplomacy, weaken asylum for Ukrainians, that fled the war, so they can be directly deported back into the meat grinder. On our side opposing narratives are systemically oppressed, for example by sanctioning journalists into absolute inability to live, like Hüseyin Doğru (who got sanctioned for his Palestine coverage with counterfactual reasoning in regards to Russia) or Jacques Baud. A recent court ruling now also actively criminalizes the reproduction/sharing of sanctioned content (like from RT, even if factual), so it‘s not enough to censor the media of the enemy in order to force you to only feed on one side. No, now individuals that share information from the other side’s perspective, can be jailed for up to five years. Opposing narratives in regards to the barbarian Israeli state is oppresed in Germany and the UK, already. But ignoring the roles of NATO in the making and maintenance of this war, ignoring the US‘ involvement in the coup, ignoring the fascist currents in the Ukrainian military and government, ignoring the forced subscription of their own citizens … ah whatever … you‘ve got to realize that this is not a game, right?
Also, how does it compute for you, that our side is complicit in the Palestinian genocide and fascist Israel‘s Lebensraum expansion and Apartheid regime, but on the Ukrainian issue suddenly we‘re the good guys or have no involvement or interests? That‘s straight up dumb.
Ohh do you want to include the event where it all started with when the Arab nation trying to chase the jews out and prevent them to set up Israel, which lead to a war that the Arab nation regreted to this day and also the annexation of Palestine to this day? Because no i don’t want to do that. I look at the current event as see who’re the bastard that did the annexation as of now, to look far back mean to muddy the opinion, because history is complicated, and people who play that card is meant to complicate thing and soften the opinion against them. If NATO is the one causing this war, why did Russia not giving back Crimea after the conflict calm down? Why did they continue to invade and takeover someone else land when Ukraine haven’t even yet enter the alliance? Or do you believe Russia is still the rightful owner of Ukraine due to the Soviet Onion and they’re merely taking back?
What does that have to do with the invasion? Are you really believe this is a “military operation” to get rid of Nazi? This is like saying Iraq deserved to be invade because of terrorist.
And what caused this? What do you have to say about Putin’s conscription of his own citizen?
Also, “our side”? That is your side, not “our side” because i don’t stand with whatever government you have if you think “our side” are pro-israel. I’m not playing a game, i’m stating an opinion on who’s wrong.
They didn’t. They legally removed a Russian agent that was passing a series of very antidemocratic laws.
Joining a defensive alliance is only a threat to an aggressor, so thanks for your admission I guess.
They wouldn’t have of Russia hadn’t invaded
It’s all 100% on Russia.
But you know that already. That’s the worst part. You’re not misinformed, you’re a liar.
This is bad counter-propaganda, as you’re lying about the basic facts. Also, you totally skipped over the Minsk Agreement, which Ukraine agreed to and then refused to enforce. They had a peace agreement and then decided to ignore it and escalate. That proves they were acting in bad faith the whole time.
Also, it was a given that Russia would invade as soon as Ukraine tried to use NATO to continue breaking the Minsk Agreement. NATO is an aggressive military alliance that has sought to encircle Russia since the USSR collapsed, and allowing a NATO country to emerge within bombing range of Moscow was a non-starter. Again, Ukraine never wanted peace. They wanted and chose escalation.
You really should just create a new username on Lemmy.ml. they’d love you there. Fit right in.
Again, only aggressive if Russia has territorial ambitions on its neighbours. Otherwise completely benign. The fact that you consider it aggressive betrays the fact that you know Russia has had territorial ambitions against its neighbours from the start. Making everything else useless verbal diarrhea.
It also betrays your imperialist way of thinking, denying Russia’s neighbours their sovereign right to join whichever military alliance they choose.
First, the United States undermined Ukrainian sovereignty by sponsoring a coup. It was US imperial ambitions which turned Ukraine into a battlefield.
Also, the United States is the head of NATO, and has said they’re open to a nuclear first strike. Of course Russia wouldn’t allow a NATO affiliated country on their border which would could make a nuclear strike so fast Russia would be unable to respond. Nuclear deterrence only works if you can mutually assure destruction and catastrophic losses on BOTH sides. If Russia can’t respond, then that’s just blackmail.
Same lie as before, there was no coup.
Look at a fucking map. Ukraine is only marginally closer to Moscow than Latvia. And by the same logic Russia should have invaded Finland before they could join NATO right next to Saint Petersburg but they didn’t, because it’s all complete bullshit and lies.
Just fucking stop.
Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for sovereignty and the freedom to choose their alliances.
You:
Also you:
Be better
This was Thursday, and the article is 3 days old.
And there’s currently another combined attack going on with multiple types of missiles and drones. Literally as I’m writing this.
Yes, all part of the “40 days and 40 nights” campaign Zelenskyj announced about a week ago.
There was much speculation about if the Flamingo missile worked and if Ukraine was even making them.
But now they are in action. They are both being made and they work. 👍 😎