Trump lambasts ‘weak’ and ‘decaying’ Europe and hints at walking away from Ukraine
(www.theguardian.com)
from Sunflier@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 10 Dec 17:26
https://lemmy.world/post/40007080
from Sunflier@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 10 Dec 17:26
https://lemmy.world/post/40007080
Russia’s bribing this JACKASS seems to have finally paid off for the Soviets.
#world
threaded - newest
“This is too hard. I quit!”
Fucking loser bitch.
TACO
The idea that Europe is weak is hilarious. Russia invading Ukraine has caused a general rearmament in Europe, this in itself wouldn’t make Europe strong but in general European militaries have been proactive about evolving their military technology and doctrine in mostly rational ways and as a result Europe is now a dense fabric of extremely advanced militaries informed by experience from the Ukraine war.
Since WW2 Europe has never been more militarily powerful compared to the US and Russia than it is now. See the rapid development and scaling up of Bohdana 155mm howitzers to 40+ systems a month as one intimidating example.
…which of course is exactly why Trump is insisting Europe is weak lol
Note, I am not arguing the US should cut aid to Ukraine.
He’s sore that the EU is not buying arms from the USA like he hoped when he pushed for increased defence budgets across NATO, and instead Europe is trying to become self-reliant and support its own defence sector.
Classic FAFO.
The main reason for this development is that he showed everyone that the US cannot be trusted anymore.
If only he asked them nicely. Instead of literally everything he’s done this year.
I’d like to learn more about the progress on the rearmament of Europe. Do you have any long form resources I could read?
I only hear bits and pieces about the slow progress. I remember hearing the goal that the EU would produce X amounts of ammunition per year. Did that happen? I also recently heard about Ukraine opening a factory in Denmark. That seems good, but still not the broad rearmament I’ve been wanting to see.
Are there good overviews, with some stats and maybe some nice looking graphics? I realize a lot is secret, but still.
Edit: I decided not to be a lazy bum and did my own googling. I found this testimony about the "Danish Model" by a member of CSIS. I learnt that Ukraine has capacity to produce $35B of military equipment per year, but only $6B to spend. Other countries are purchasing another $10B worth of military equipment per year from Ukrainian producers. This is the Danish model.
Russia still outproduces all of NATO in artillery shells, tanks, etc. And most European countries only have enough stocks to survive an Ukraine style war on their own for a few months without help (if they can fight as efficiently as Ukraine which is not a given). That’s why unity and further ramp up is so important. Most of the really impressive production is happening inside Ukraine. But it’s also generally not up to Russian rates. It will be some time before Europe is really prepared to go it alone and that’s only if they really start producing now, which I wouldn’t say is really happening yet.
Just note that you can not calculate like that. At war the whole economy switches over, instead of only a tiny fraction.
The question then is when Europe will realize it’s at war and start producing like it.
The EU is not at war.
I disagree. We are being attacked on a regular basis.
A state, let alone a union of lots of states, are not at war because you feel like it. wiki: war
So what makes you think the EU is at war and why are all the implications that would have missing?
Note that “being attacked” is something different than being at war, as per above, but I am not going to start a new discussion before we have not finished this one.
Call it a covert war or what you want, but the EU is under attack by Russia and has been for some time. Just because one side has started a war campaign against the other and the other hasn’t responded in kind doesn’t make the war not real.
Those are perhaps hostile actions, but that is far away from war or “war campaign”.
So what it’s only war when war is formally declared?
Did you not read the definition above? It is pretty much the opposite. Just because 2 nations are formally at war with each other does not mean shit, there is a wiki article with absurd examples.
That’s kind of my point
Without a qualitative measure, those numbers are nearly meaningless. It’s also worthwhile knowing how much of that materiel actually gets to the front lines. Command economies are notorious about claiming to hit production targets, yet nothing actually changing downstream. Nobody wants to tell the boss they missed their production quota, since doing so can lead to defenestration.
They are certainly of lower quality, but in the words of Stalin, “Quantity has a quality of its own”.
I don’t think Stalin actually said that. I can’t find a good source anyway.
Unfortunately at least on the english speaking internet the overall quality of resources for this has plummeted. To be frank, I think a lot of this has to do with the necessary dumbing down that has been applied to the media over conversations about war ever since 9/11 sent authoritarianism in the US into overdrive and reduced justifications for military strikes into cartoonish cynical jokes, this process has reached an absolute peak in utterly denying the Palestinian Genocide and pretending it is a war and as a result discussion in english speaking media about ALL wars and conflicts right now has been reduced to baby like parroting of whatever the military and politicians say with no journalistic critique of the narrative being presented from a perspective of known established realities about war. “tanks are obsolete!” “helicopters are obsolete!!” “artillery is obsolete!” … it is honestly exhausting.
That coupled with enshittification makes this a very difficult time to find good information even as in many ways paradoxically there has never been better access to information.
That rant aside, this article is a good place to start
defensenews.com/…/european-drone-training-sites-m…
In general I would pay attention to defense news websites and also note the general structure of joint european military exercises, they typically display the cohesive intention behind what can feel like meaningless unrelated details of arms procurement.
In a way I think the best way to put a picture together for yourself is to think of an abstracted idea of an armored brigade combat team with supporting drone, air and naval assets.
Armored Battalion (×2) Headquarters and Headquarters Company Tank Company (×2) Mechanized Infantry Company Mechanized Infantry Battalion (×1) Headquarters and Headquarters Company Tank Company Mechanized Infantry Company (×2) Cavalry Squadron (×1) Headquarters and Headquarters Troop Tank Troop (×2) Cavalry Troop (x2) Field artillery (fires) battalion Headquarters and headquarters battery Target acquisition platoon M109 155 mm self propelled howitzer battery (×2) Brigade engineer battalion Headquarters and headquarters company Combat engineer company Engineer support company Signal company Military intelligence company Brigade Support Battalion Headquarters and Headquarters Company Distribution Company Field Maintenance Company Medical Company Headquarters Platoon Treatment Platoon Medical Evacuation Platoon Forward Support Company (Cavalry) Forward Support Company (Combined Arms) (×3)en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigade_combat_team
Consider all the primary equipment needed for a wholistic “unit” of an equivalent fighting force along with drones, aircraft and navy if applicable. Don’t forget bridgelayers and logistics! In general, considering the largest militaries in Europe such as the German military then ask the basic question what is the state of that countries equipment for those major r
Thank you for that long write-up! I’m glad to see more progress. I’ll keep an eye on defense news
Trump saying Europe is weak means he thinks they’re not racist and xenophobic enough.
That was clear from the context. The “strength” he wants to see is fascists thugs in charge, doing whatever Putin wants.
European democracies must tighten their restrictions on political parties and media outlets that are mouthpieces for hostile foreign powers. Breaking up media monpolies is also essential. And Germany should grow a pair and actually enforce their anti-Nazi laws.
Yes, I just find it endlessly ironic that fascists are weak and awful at war because they are narrowly obsessed with the violence and the aesthetics of strength and don’t actually care about learning anything about how to be strong or integrating newly learned information into sustained training. People assume fascists will be good at war because it is what they are obsessed with it but this is like assuming that somebody who is a massive fan of a sports team is automatically good at that sport, just because someone dresses up in the clothes professionals wear and spouts knowledge about the profession doesn’t make them into a professional in that realm (I am looking at you specifically Pete Hegseth when I spit on the ground).
Fascism is weakness, both morally and physically. Fascism will eat a military from the inside out and waste vast amounts of resources and human lives on utterly useless military strategies if those strategies fit the ideals of fascism, consequences and reality be damned fascists don’t care.
The childish side of me wants to say “I know you are, but what am I?”
Because it's obviously projection. Is he mad that Europeans don't cover up his senior moments?
What does “walking away from Ukraine” even mean?
USA is not supporting Ukraine in any manner.
If a weapon bought by some other country is going to be donated to Ukraine, USA adds a 10% punishment fee to the price of the weapon. I don’t think this will end if USA “walks away from Ukraine”.
The only thing USA walking away would mean would be it no longer trying to pressure Ukraine into capitulating to the Russia.
So… Maybe we should help Trump see us as weak? Walk away, dude, just walk away. Good riddance.
The last thing he can take away is his satellites and other surveillance, and air defense missiles for which there are not a ready replacement in Europe. So this would be painful for at least another 1-2 years if he did it.
But Europe can also make things painful for Trump by selling Tbills or tariffing US tech services which is a way bigger industry for the US than any goods trade happening between Europe and USA. I’d say Europe has at least as much and maybe more leverage but is just trying to stay better behaved until they really need to show Trump the finger.
And USA is still doing sanctions on russion oil.
Europe is keeping quiet. Talking back doesn’t work. Flattering doesn’t work. As long as support is still flowing they let him rant and work on alternatives for USA products and services.
“I’ll end the war on day one”.
. . . by selling out Ukraine!
This is a long fucking day.
Walk away from Ukraine? This fucker gets lost in the Oval Office.
Oh nos! EPSTEIN FILES, anyone?
Thats some major projection going on.
More projection from PEDOnald. He is scared he’s being viewed as weak and decaying, so just spouting those probably just learned words in anger at something better than he is.
Spoiler: he is weak and decaying.
In a year to a year-and-a-half he’s going to be begging for Europe’s attention. That’ll be when the post-tariff trade deals rerouting around the US kick in.
With luck, by then he’ll be long dead.
O come, blessed arterial plaque!
Just in time for MAGA to blame Democrats in Congress
He can barely walk, period
Everything this idiot says tends to be the opposite. And frankly, I can see it.
The Europe I see (as a Canadian, with immigrant parents from Portugal) is the same Europe I’ve always seen; It has it’s share of problems, sure. But for the most part, they’re older, with a lot more history to draw from, and as a result are just more level headed than the idiot teenagers revving their engine and trying to pick bar fights that is America.
Europe as a continent has been through enough shit that they’ve kind of, as a culture, learned to say “woah…okay…let’s take a step back and look at this a bit before deciding to be an asshole.” Canada kind of inherited some of that by virtue of sticking in the commonwealth longer and having a peaceful transition to independence instead of kicking our feet and threatening to move out at 16 like some bratty teenage countries did.
(Apropos of nothing, I also think that this is sort of the problem with a lot of Eastern Bloc countries. With the fall of the Soviet Union, a lot of them (Russia Included) were kicked out on their own all of a sudden and are essentially entering the teenage years of their independence)
Does that mean Europe is perfect? No…of course not. Far from it.
But they’re a hell of a lot more put together and strong than the U.S. is at the moment.
Trump is projecting, as usual.
I have to politely disagree with your opinion of Europe being more mature and level-headed. They seem that way now, but they’ve repeatedly fucked over one another throughout history. They aren’t magically immune to internal/external bullshit just because it’s been around longer.
凸(｀⌒´メ)凸
Polarisation is this pukestain’s favourite word.
Weak? We’re on the brink of recolonising the sh*t out of you. This version clearly has failed.
Churchill was on the right track with Operation Unthinkable. And as much as a think Patton was a vainglorious blowhard, he was right about the Russians.
Should have done something in 45.