from IndustryStandard@lemmy.world to world@lemmy.world on 02 Jun 17:22
https://lemmy.world/post/30662840
Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip opened fire as people headed towards a food distribution site a kilometre away at around sunrise on Monday, killing at least three people and injuring dozens, health officials and a witness said. The military said it fired warning shots at “suspects” who approached its forces.
The shooting occurred at the same location where witnesses say Israeli forces fired a day earlier on crowds of people heading towards the food distribution hub in southern Gaza run by the Israeli and US-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation.
The Israeli military said it fired warning shots on Monday toward “several suspects who advanced toward the troops and posed a threat to them,” around a kilometre (1,000 yards) away from the food distribution site at a time when it was closed. The army denied it was preventing people from reaching the site.
#world
threaded - newest
Nah, see, this is the rhetoric that compounds the problem. The Israeli government is currently run by ultranationalists who are engaged in a genocide. They need to be stopped. That’s an objective and reasonable statement, backed up by evidence and moral justification.
To say that the nation and its people are monsters who do not have a right to exist, that’s anti-Semitism.
I’m an American. Donald Trump is a criminal, and belongs in prison. He should be stopped. If you have a plan to stop him, I’ll probably support it (within reason). If you were to say, “America has no fucking right to exist. They are a colony of deprsved monsters,” I could understand why you think that given the actions we have directed or supported internationally, but I would have to disagree.
Israel is a nation of many people. Those people have a right to exist, just as Palestinians have a right to exist. Existence doesn’t have to be a zero sum game.
Are you aware of the origins of Israel and what was there pre WW2?
Are you aware of the origins of North America and what was there pre colonization?
Are you aware that many people condemn the American colonizers for that genocide too?
Yep, I’m one of them. Are we saying that the United States doesn’t have a right to exist? Canada and Mexico have their own skeletons in their closets, too. Which countries have a right to exist? The Palestinians were “displaced” by the British, who took control from the Ottomans, who conquered the land from the Egyptians, the Mongols, the Crusades… how far back are we going to go?
Or maybe we accept that a nation is constructed of modern people who are not responsible for the sins of their forebears. Maybe we can criticize genocidal tyrants and war criminals without dehumanizing an entire citizenry and calling for their extermination. Because if both sides are calling for the eradication of the other, then the historical claim to the territory is irrelevant. If both sides justify violence with divine provenance, then neither side maintaims the moral high ground.
Israel is engaged in a genocide. They should be stopped, with violence if necessary. But condemning the people’s right to exist blunts the criticism of genocide. It makes it appear to be a holy war between two violent terrorists, when that is far from the reality.
Lol the immediate tu quoque fallacy gives you away.
Immediate? Immediately after not being active in this thread before?
And accusing me of that particular fallacy makes no sense either considering my post merely pointed out that the person I responded to did not have a great point in trying to catch anyone in an inconsistency between their treatment of the US colonization vs. the founding of Israel.
Ok bud. I’m not explaining this.
You’re so close to getting it
No actually I think I get it just fine.
A few years ago (prior to Oct 7) I was exactly where you are now. I thought I got it then, too.
Ok. Can you point to anything I said that wasn’t true?
No, because I agree with you. You just need to take it a step farther and follow your argument through to its logical conclusion
The logical conclusion of opposing a genocide is not more genocide.
Didn’t say it was, and that’s absolutely not where I’m going. There’s a huge difference between dismantling the power of a geopolitical state in order to stop it from committing a genocide (which is what most people mean when they say “Israel doesn’t have a right to exist”) and the genocide of that state’s people. Don’t conflate the two
When the Nazi German state was dismantled following WWII, was that a genocide against the German people? Did the Third Reich have a right to exist?
Would trying Hitler and his leadership for crimes against humanity have been sufficient on its own? Of course not, the entire Nazi German state apparatus needed to be dismantled.
I don’t believe that is what most people mean when they say that.
As for the Nazi comparison, there were a lot of people who would have preferred we kill all the Nazis, but only a relatively small percentage were tried and convicted. Germany did not forfeit their right to exist, and the German people (including most of the Nazis) were allowed to continue on with their lives.
As for Hitler, I do think a trial would have been better for the world and the development of humanity. But like most narcissists, he was a coward and chose to shoot himself rather than face consequences.
Germany is a real country though. Israel is a settler colony established through land theft.
Yes like America and australia.
For the record no country has a right to exist. They either do exist or they don’t.
By saying Israel has no right to exist I mean the racist genocidal ethnostate called Israel needs to be dismantled and become a one state with equal rights for all. That is not a call for genocide. That is a call for humanity.
Do you even hear yourself?
Can you remind me why those Jewish immigrants had to move to Israel after WWII? Why they couldn’t just go back to their homes in Europe?
I’ll take you at your word that this is what you meant, but my point still stands because it does not come across that way at all. You may not be aware that there is an alarming resurgence of anti-Semitism globally (fueled in large part by the Israeli government engaging in the genocide of Palestinians). “Israel has no right to exist” is a common refrain among anti-Semites, and most of them do mean “Jewish people should not exist.”
If you’re not calling for a genocide, then you need to be clear when you’re critical of Israel. Because sounding like a nazi gives credibility to the defenders of Israel who claim that all critics are nazis.
Yes, and Israel exists.
What are you even talking about? The colonization of Palestine was ideological and started long before WW2. Zionism predates the Holocaust by several decades.
Even for the refugees you’re conjuring up a completely false binary. It wasnt Palestine or nowhere. It was Palestine or Western countries accepting refugees
Like a Zionist, you are treating Palestine as if it were terra nullis. You could at least acknowledge that Israel was set up through ethnic cleansing and the cultural erasure of Palestinians. The Palestinians paid and are still paying for the crimes of the Europeans.
Yes anti semitism is on the rise just as xenophobia and white supremacy is on the rise but you’re 1) conflating criticism of Israel which isn’t antisemtic with hatred of Jews, which is and 2) suggesting that criticising genocide and calling for the dismantling of Israel somehow encourages anti semitism which is disingenuous.
It is possible to oppose the state of Israel without opposing Jewish people.
You said Israel is currently governed by ultranationalists engaged in genocide that need to be stopped.
Consider this question: What exactly needs to happen for Israel to “be stopped?” There’s been recent polling showing that something like 80% of the population supports what’s currently happening in Gaza and 2/3rds of the population oppose allowing ANY humanitarian aid in. Therefore removing Netanyahu and the current government is not sufficient - a new government would be voted in that will immediately continue where they left off.
Let’s be honest with ourselves, the world is a mess right now. There are no “good guys” coming to the rescue. There’s no political or military power that will fix the discord or stop the violence. In an ideal world, Netanyahu and his leadership would be tried and convicted of crimes against humanity. Given the current climate, I’d settle for an armistice to end the murdering of civilians and to allow for humanitarian aid to reach the people who need it. The threat of another elected despot is not an argument against deposing the current one.
You’re citing those polling numbers as evidence that I’m wrong? That we don’t have a problem with messaging? If your plan is to convince me that we need to stop a genocide with a genocide, then I have sorry news for you. Even if it was 100% of Israelis polled, I would still be opposed to genocide. Existence is never a crime. We are defined by our choices, not by the circumstances of our birth. When people communicate, there is always an opportunity for people to grow and learn. Communication is the only path to peace, and the people who need to hear you will not hear you while you’re saying they are monsters who do not deserve to live.
Israel is a terrorist group which has occupied Palestinian land. Their blatant obvious theft is known by all with historical knowledge. Israelis need to return the land to the rightful Palestinian owners as zoon as possible. Maybe the Palestinians will let them rent their house.
Most obvious example of actual terrorism in the world, perpetrated by the Israelis of course. Disgusting colonizing genocidal bastards, hard at work to ensure evangelical christians get their wish.
I wrote a comment and it was removed for “anti semitism”
Mods it’s not antisemitism to attack the genocidal colony that is mass murdering children
For the record it said
Israel has no right to exist. They are a colony of depraved monsters
Stop using “anti semitism” to censor legitimate condemndation
LemmyWorld + Feddit.org alliance bands together to not allow people to say an Apartheid has no right to exist.
Yes it appears so. Not sure how much of it is down to the narcissistic Germans who think they are being righteous by repressing and censoring pro Palestine voices.