I think we're already in it. A world war, as I understand it, is basically just a situation where a variety of alliances and tensions build up until when a war erupts in one spot it rapidly spreads around to involve a large number of countries world-wide. That seems to be the case already, you can easily build a Pepe Silvia wall-of-crazy showing all the connections between Russia and China and Iran and Syria and Israel and Hungary and Ukraine and Belarus and the United States and Taiwan and on and on. The actual shooting pew pew warfare is still relatively confined (though bear in mind that literally a million Russian casualties have happened over a thousands-of-kilometers-long front line riddled with trenches and minefields, which is pretty significant) but all these countries are throwing their weight in on those fights and it's easy to imagine them branching out quite quickly when conditions change.
redsand@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 04 Jul 00:22
nextcollapse
For now. Ideally they lose in a few years once China has a better position
You can count on tramp and his fascist toadies to lose their proxy war with China without a fight by refusing to acknowledge it until no asian ally is willing to resist or share intel out of fear of getting betrayed, like the EU and Ukraine.
Implying that the US could be too focused on Russia right now to help Taiwan defend against a Chinese invasion sounds like wishful thinking considering how little they are doing to help Ukraine.
Well, they need to help Israel fight a multi-front war and commit genocide at the same time. That’s more than just walking and chewing gum at the same time.
some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
on 04 Jul 00:40
nextcollapse
U.S. President Donald Trump, who has not managed to broker a promised ceasefire between Moscow and Kyiv, has long viewed China as the United States’ main adversary and is predominantly focused on relations between the two nations.
Heys the only one that can negotiate a peace. On day one!
Wang’s reported comments suggest that Russia’s war in Ukraine may serve China’s strategic needs as focus is deviated away from Beijing’s mounting preparation to launch its own eventual invasion into Taiwan.
I doubt anyone has said that so clearly, but if everyone in the west has been thinking that for 3 years, I’m sure the Chinese have too.
perestroika@slrpnk.net
on 04 Jul 01:10
nextcollapse
As a side note: there is speculation that China may be approaching a change of leader due to Xi experiencing health issues (not a change of leadership in the wider sense - the collegial system of the CCP is considered to be functioning).
Thus, it may be impossible for the Chinese foreign minister to be fully confident of what China’s policy will be in the future.
Obviously, China views it as unacceptable for Russia (its ally and soon enough, practically its vassal) to all-out lose. (The easiest way to not lose, of course, is not starting a war, but that train is long gone and behind the hills.)
Prolonging the war does not eliminate this risk well, however - exhaustion could spread in Russian society and morale could collapse despite the state spewing its propaganda, or the economy could collapse. So, simply propping up Russia by letting them buy the goods they shouldn’t be getting is not a very elegant solution. Direct interference on behalf of Russia would lead to open hostility with the EU, which is currently ambivalent about China.
What remains is nudging Russia to negotiate. But Putin is hard-headed and only willing to negotiate Ukraine’s surrender, on terms which Ukrainians will laugh out of the door.
As for the US being able to focus on China, well I guess they’re a bit concerned about it, but given the mental and organizational capability of the current US leadership, I don’t think Chinese analysts are particularly worried.
cheese_greater@lemmy.world
on 04 Jul 01:24
nextcollapse
What did Confucious say about rainchecks?
Telodzrum@lemmy.world
on 04 Jul 01:34
nextcollapse
I mean, yeah. Russia has been a Chinese vassal state since Covid.
Before they invaded Ukraine the 2nd time they had a fearsome reputation militarily and they had some goodwill in Europe (misplaced, but they were seen as misunderstood, not fascists), they had surplus resources to help their allies in Syria, Iran, etc and their weapons sold all over the world, so they were not a vassal state of China, they had lots of options economically, politically, militarily and were free to move about money/spies/etc. Now they have much less options…but maybe tramp will give them some in exchange for nothing…
It still baffles me how people manage to justify China’s position on Russia. Sure it’s “geopolitics” but if you take a look at domestic propaganda in China itself it’s certainly much more than that.
Check out videos of what Ukrainians deal with while living in China - its down right disgusting how brainwashed Chinese are equating Zelenskyy to the likes of Hitler in Ukrainian’s faces and thsse are just normal people in apolitical contexts like nurses in hospitals. It’s absolute insanity.
That’s just Chinese people in general on any subject. Anyone who’s actually been to that country would notice pretty quickly that things are NOT OK. The Chinese population has never not known abuse and it shows.
HootinNHollerin@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 04 Jul 05:06
nextcollapse
True, they can demand Haishenwai and Outer Manchuria all the way to and including lake Baikal to help russia keep what it has stolen from Ukraine. Or else…geh fuck yourselves.
tramp has chosen to be the enemy of the west and the rules based order, China’s just been having a wonderful time flying under the cover of the daily orange meltdown since the clown show started.
PS: they don’t even have to do anything, they just have to point at trump and say “democracy, you mean THAT?” And they’ll be using it as evidence against the “chaos of democracy” worldwide.
No, you’re not understanding what is being said here. The west has always declared China the opponent and they’ll take China on when they finish their other conflicts like Russia. The EU has consistently asked China to stop Russia. China’s just saying the quiet part out loud. Who in their right mind would help you after you constantly called me a threat and told me if Russia falls you’re coming after me?
Edit for those down voting me, here’s Kallas saying China is next, the person China is talking to in the article.
The west has always declared China the opponent and they’ll take China on when they finish their other conflicts like Russia.
Always? Citation needed. After COVID, maybe? Or did it start with tramp in 2016, maybe sooner at the 2008 olympics? Certainly in 1993 that was not the case when China entered the WTO.
And of course: nearly nobody in the EU wanted to fight russia or spend more on defense until forced to open their eyes on russia’s reinvasion of Ukraine in 2022.
Always as in before anyone currently in power was in power.
Now, China is just saying what your thinking. If EU isn’t supporting USA on this, we can talk. Otherwise what do we gain from not keeping Russia afloat?
Edit btw the point of all of this is China is literally telling the EU how to stop the war. Turn on the US
Yeah, the 1st paper is from 2015, that’s after the Hong Kong protests, when it was finally clear that China was going to stamp out democracy in Hong Kong and Xi Jinping’s new Wolf Warrior diplomacy. Excuse us for being…unimpressed.
Eh, but I’m not making any predictions, but if russia implodes by repeatedly hitting their head against a wall, you’re cleaning up that mess, not us, he’s your drunken psychotic friend now. We already got plenty scalded trying to rehab them and getting blamed for everything that went wrong.
That was a paper talking about history. That it started before Obama even. Though, as the wiki article states at a minimum it started with Obama. Also, why would Russia lose? The implied threat is your going to be facing down J20s if it gets bad enough.
China’s just talking about stopping Russia. Which the EU keeps saying it’s the top priority. They’re willing to spend billions to do it. China’s saying you can save all that money, totally your choice. It’s easy for me.
Edit see we are talking about different clarity. Europe has none. China has all of it.
No, it’s russia. The whole point of NATO is russia. russia needs to have its invincibility myth shattered and imperialist tendencies restrained (Merkel tried this with trade and failed) by learning that they wasted millions of people and gained nothing. This is a hard learned lesson by most EU countries and is the glue of the EU. If the EU loses this, the lesson is that pacifism is a losing strategy and russia will just learn that war pays, so they will regroup and return for more in a generation.
The US should have learned this too from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan…and they do appear wary of starting new wars…even the neofascists.
China…has a lot of nationalists, but so far has focussed on trade…hasn’t started any wars…fine with he EU. Could be a good partner to fight climate change, because the US and russia will never abandon their precious fossil fuels.
Oh God that’s a lot of words that China doesn’t care about. If you tell China that China’s next after Russia, yeah China’s gonna help Russia. Seems obvious. Why should China care why NATO?
By humiliating and pushing out the pacifists, you ensure that there will be war. That’s it. The US is doing it, russia is doing it, China apparently also wants to do it, why not.
Really? You call a person literally threatening China and now sitting across the table a pacifist? You got a weird definition there buddy. I’ll take the side of the country that hasn’t been involved in a conflict for over 40 years.
Yeah, nobody in the EU is going to war with China, but its tech dominance (as the US’s) poses a challenge to how the countries organize themselves. You confuse The EU with the west, but if the US abandoned NATO, would China abandon russia? I don’t think so. So China’s backstop of russia is a direct threat to the EU, whereas the EU is not direct threat to China without going through the US.
Yes any talk about democractic reason to stop China is stupid considering they “NATO allies” are committing a full blown genocide in Gaza.
In reality China is a natural threat to wealthy people in the west because they have the population and the technology to: 1) fight any attempt to be exploited , 2) Exploit other countries.
There are wealthy people in China too (and a disgusting cult of weath to go with it to make any communist nauseous or any oligarch envious) and they’re obedient little piggies, just like those idiots at tramp’s inauguration
RadioFreeArabia@lemmy.world
on 04 Jul 07:39
collapse
Since the Opium Wars. Churchill even talked about breaking China apart a la the Muslim World so that it can never rise again.
Yeah, that guy’s gone. The policy with China was to encourage it to become the Germany of Asia in the hopes that it would liberalize as it developed. Well…no…shit happens…
It is not like Sinophobia and Yellow Perilism suddenly stopped in the West. China sees what the West is doing to Gaza and the Middle East as a whole, and knows if it weren’t for its might they would do the same to it. I see Westerners online openly daydream of breaking up China and post their maps of a broken-up China. Breaking up the Middle East and the Muslim World doomed it for over a century, why would China allow that for itself? They know they are next.
Also, why is liberalism mandatory? I don’t want my country <insert bad evil illiberal arab country> to liberalize. There are other systems that work just as well if not better than [mandatory] Liberalism. If Chinese liberalize that’s their own business and if they don’t that’s their choice.
RadioFreeArabia@lemmy.world
on 04 Jul 07:38
collapse
rules based order
The rules based order is allowing genocide to happen in Gaza.
Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
on 04 Jul 08:46
nextcollapse
The thread is about Ukraine. I am all for the genocide in Gaza to stop but can you try not to hijack any post about every other conflict?
Vanilla_PuddinFudge@infosec.pub
on 04 Jul 08:58
collapse
I don’t see Xilly old bear and Puddin lifting any fingers, either. I guess they do agree on the US on something!
CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org
on 04 Jul 07:38
nextcollapse
If this is true, the EU better be figuring out how to change that price calculus for them. Which makes me doubt an open admission actually did happen, since China would understand the possibility for blowback.
I used to joke that China wants to trade Ukraine for Taiwan, now it is very clear: you shut up about helping/recognizing/arming Taiwan and we keep a leash on russia…until next time…
threaded - newest
Maybe they’ll choose a wiser positiom, next time. Their fuckery does nit constute an emergency for us
Ahh, so Trump gets his orders from the Chinoruskie empire…
“Because that would be totally devastating to our plans for Taiwan.”
💩
That is a startlingly weak position for China to be in.
Not really startling. No big player other than Russia has ever been on China’s side RE Taiwan.
I feel like Russian support is pretty much a rounding error when it comes to Chinese power.
World War 3 foreshadowing for the next season of the This Crazy Fucking Timeline show
Well, we are currently teeing it up.
I think we're already in it. A world war, as I understand it, is basically just a situation where a variety of alliances and tensions build up until when a war erupts in one spot it rapidly spreads around to involve a large number of countries world-wide. That seems to be the case already, you can easily build a Pepe Silvia wall-of-crazy showing all the connections between Russia and China and Iran and Syria and Israel and Hungary and Ukraine and Belarus and the United States and Taiwan and on and on. The actual shooting pew pew warfare is still relatively confined (though bear in mind that literally a million Russian casualties have happened over a thousands-of-kilometers-long front line riddled with trenches and minefields, which is pretty significant) but all these countries are throwing their weight in on those fights and it's easy to imagine them branching out quite quickly when conditions change.
For now. Ideally they lose in a few years once China has a better position
You can count on tramp and his fascist toadies to lose their proxy war with China without a fight by refusing to acknowledge it until no asian ally is willing to resist or share intel out of fear of getting betrayed, like the EU and Ukraine.
5 eyes and 14 eyes are both falling apart
Implying that the US could be too focused on Russia right now to help Taiwan defend against a Chinese invasion sounds like wishful thinking considering how little they are doing to help Ukraine.
Well, they need to help Israel fight a multi-front war and commit genocide at the same time. That’s more than just walking and chewing gum at the same time.
Heys the only one that can negotiate a peace. On day one!
I doubt anyone has said that so clearly, but if everyone in the west has been thinking that for 3 years, I’m sure the Chinese have too.
As a side note: there is speculation that China may be approaching a change of leader due to Xi experiencing health issues (not a change of leadership in the wider sense - the collegial system of the CCP is considered to be functioning).
Thus, it may be impossible for the Chinese foreign minister to be fully confident of what China’s policy will be in the future.
Obviously, China views it as unacceptable for Russia (its ally and soon enough, practically its vassal) to all-out lose. (The easiest way to not lose, of course, is not starting a war, but that train is long gone and behind the hills.)
Prolonging the war does not eliminate this risk well, however - exhaustion could spread in Russian society and morale could collapse despite the state spewing its propaganda, or the economy could collapse. So, simply propping up Russia by letting them buy the goods they shouldn’t be getting is not a very elegant solution. Direct interference on behalf of Russia would lead to open hostility with the EU, which is currently ambivalent about China.
What remains is nudging Russia to negotiate. But Putin is hard-headed and only willing to negotiate Ukraine’s surrender, on terms which Ukrainians will laugh out of the door.
As for the US being able to focus on China, well I guess they’re a bit concerned about it, but given the mental and organizational capability of the current US leadership, I don’t think Chinese analysts are particularly worried.
What did Confucious say about rainchecks?
I mean, yeah. Russia has been a Chinese vassal state since Covid.
Before they invaded Ukraine the 2nd time they had a fearsome reputation militarily and they had some goodwill in Europe (misplaced, but they were seen as misunderstood, not fascists), they had surplus resources to help their allies in Syria, Iran, etc and their weapons sold all over the world, so they were not a vassal state of China, they had lots of options economically, politically, militarily and were free to move about money/spies/etc. Now they have much less options…but maybe tramp will give them some in exchange for nothing…
It still baffles me how people manage to justify China’s position on Russia. Sure it’s “geopolitics” but if you take a look at domestic propaganda in China itself it’s certainly much more than that.
Check out videos of what Ukrainians deal with while living in China - its down right disgusting how brainwashed Chinese are equating Zelenskyy to the likes of Hitler in Ukrainian’s faces and thsse are just normal people in apolitical contexts like nurses in hospitals. It’s absolute insanity.
That’s just Chinese people in general on any subject. Anyone who’s actually been to that country would notice pretty quickly that things are NOT OK. The Chinese population has never not known abuse and it shows.
Sure they can
True, they can demand Haishenwai and Outer Manchuria all the way to and including lake Baikal to help russia keep what it has stolen from Ukraine. Or else…geh fuck yourselves.
China has chosen to be the enemy the west and rules based order then.
tramp has chosen to be the enemy of the west and the rules based order, China’s just been having a wonderful time flying under the cover of the daily orange meltdown since the clown show started.
PS: they don’t even have to do anything, they just have to point at trump and say “democracy, you mean THAT?” And they’ll be using it as evidence against the “chaos of democracy” worldwide.
No, you’re not understanding what is being said here. The west has always declared China the opponent and they’ll take China on when they finish their other conflicts like Russia. The EU has consistently asked China to stop Russia. China’s just saying the quiet part out loud. Who in their right mind would help you after you constantly called me a threat and told me if Russia falls you’re coming after me?
Edit for those down voting me, here’s Kallas saying China is next, the person China is talking to in the article.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQTS1RC50A
Always? Citation needed. After COVID, maybe? Or did it start with tramp in 2016, maybe sooner at the 2008 olympics? Certainly in 1993 that was not the case when China entered the WTO.
And of course: nearly nobody in the EU wanted to fight russia or spend more on defense until forced to open their eyes on russia’s reinvasion of Ukraine in 2022.
At least since Obama.
…wikipedia.org/…/East_Asian_foreign_policy_of_the…
Here’s an EU based article saying that really it’s been happening since Clinton.
ecpr.eu/Events/Event/PaperDetails/25139
Always as in before anyone currently in power was in power.
Now, China is just saying what your thinking. If EU isn’t supporting USA on this, we can talk. Otherwise what do we gain from not keeping Russia afloat?
Edit btw the point of all of this is China is literally telling the EU how to stop the war. Turn on the US
Yeah, the 1st paper is from 2015, that’s after the Hong Kong protests, when it was finally clear that China was going to stamp out democracy in Hong Kong and Xi Jinping’s new Wolf Warrior diplomacy. Excuse us for being…unimpressed.
Eh, but I’m not making any predictions, but if russia implodes by repeatedly hitting their head against a wall, you’re cleaning up that mess, not us, he’s your drunken psychotic friend now. We already got plenty scalded trying to rehab them and getting blamed for everything that went wrong.
That was a paper talking about history. That it started before Obama even. Though, as the wiki article states at a minimum it started with Obama. Also, why would Russia lose? The implied threat is your going to be facing down J20s if it gets bad enough.
Clarity is actually better in these things.
I’m clear. The EU talks about wanting to stop Russia, but doesn’t actually work with the partner that can stop Russia. That’s as clear as it gets.
I guess that depends on what the US turns into…and there is no clarity there… :/
China’s just talking about stopping Russia. Which the EU keeps saying it’s the top priority. They’re willing to spend billions to do it. China’s saying you can save all that money, totally your choice. It’s easy for me.
Edit see we are talking about different clarity. Europe has none. China has all of it.
Do you understand why the EU considers this a top priority? Hint: it is not about Ukraine’s land or NATO/EU membership.
Well, as Kallas says, it’s to go after China next.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQTS1RC50A
So, after that statement, I honestly can imagine China having more clarity on supporting Russia.
No, it’s russia. The whole point of NATO is russia. russia needs to have its invincibility myth shattered and imperialist tendencies restrained (Merkel tried this with trade and failed) by learning that they wasted millions of people and gained nothing. This is a hard learned lesson by most EU countries and is the glue of the EU. If the EU loses this, the lesson is that pacifism is a losing strategy and russia will just learn that war pays, so they will regroup and return for more in a generation.
The US should have learned this too from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan…and they do appear wary of starting new wars…even the neofascists.
China…has a lot of nationalists, but so far has focussed on trade…hasn’t started any wars…fine with he EU. Could be a good partner to fight climate change, because the US and russia will never abandon their precious fossil fuels.
Oh God that’s a lot of words that China doesn’t care about. If you tell China that China’s next after Russia, yeah China’s gonna help Russia. Seems obvious. Why should China care why NATO?
By humiliating and pushing out the pacifists, you ensure that there will be war. That’s it. The US is doing it, russia is doing it, China apparently also wants to do it, why not.
Really? You call a person literally threatening China and now sitting across the table a pacifist? You got a weird definition there buddy. I’ll take the side of the country that hasn’t been involved in a conflict for over 40 years.
Yeah, nobody in the EU is going to war with China, but its tech dominance (as the US’s) poses a challenge to how the countries organize themselves. You confuse The EU with the west, but if the US abandoned NATO, would China abandon russia? I don’t think so. So China’s backstop of russia is a direct threat to the EU, whereas the EU is not direct threat to China without going through the US.
Did you not understand, that’s exactly the offer China is giving the EU in this statement. Abandon the US and we can talk about abandoning Russia.
The crackdown on the George Floyd protests was far more violent and deadly. You can’t point at China when your own house is a mess.
Yes any talk about democractic reason to stop China is stupid considering they “NATO allies” are committing a full blown genocide in Gaza.
In reality China is a natural threat to wealthy people in the west because they have the population and the technology to: 1) fight any attempt to be exploited , 2) Exploit other countries.
There are wealthy people in China too (and a disgusting cult of weath to go with it to make any communist nauseous or any oligarch envious) and they’re obedient little piggies, just like those idiots at tramp’s inauguration
Since the Opium Wars. Churchill even talked about breaking China apart a la the Muslim World so that it can never rise again.
Yeah, that guy’s gone. The policy with China was to encourage it to become the Germany of Asia in the hopes that it would liberalize as it developed. Well…no…shit happens…
How about this from 2025?: Kaja Kallas: EU Must Focus on Russia Before Taking on China | Dawn News English
It is not like Sinophobia and Yellow Perilism suddenly stopped in the West. China sees what the West is doing to Gaza and the Middle East as a whole, and knows if it weren’t for its might they would do the same to it. I see Westerners online openly daydream of breaking up China and post their maps of a broken-up China. Breaking up the Middle East and the Muslim World doomed it for over a century, why would China allow that for itself? They know they are next.
Also, why is liberalism mandatory? I don’t want my country <insert bad evil illiberal arab country> to liberalize. There are other systems that work just as well if not better than [mandatory] Liberalism. If Chinese liberalize that’s their own business and if they don’t that’s their choice.
The rules based order is allowing genocide to happen in Gaza.
The thread is about Ukraine. I am all for the genocide in Gaza to stop but can you try not to hijack any post about every other conflict?
I don’t see Xilly old bear and Puddin lifting any fingers, either. I guess they do agree on the US on something!
China literally sent aid to Gaza, so I guess it’s just you guys and your buddies in Russia.
…gov.cn/…/content_WS65fb793fc6d0868f4e8e54c8.html
If this is true, the EU better be figuring out how to change that price calculus for them. Which makes me doubt an open admission actually did happen, since China would understand the possibility for blowback.
I used to joke that China wants to trade Ukraine for Taiwan, now it is very clear: you shut up about helping/recognizing/arming Taiwan and we keep a leash on russia…until next time…
China is clearly responding to EU leaders like Kallas saying China is next.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihQTS1RC50A
any sociological doctorates in here? What does it say about the state of the ruZZian war, when chinas FM weighs in on their vision for the war?
Not just Beijing.