I've had more conversations about this than I care to count.
from BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world to vegan@lemmy.world on 31 Oct 2023 16:09
https://lemmy.world/post/7598287
from BonesOfTheMoon@lemmy.world to vegan@lemmy.world on 31 Oct 2023 16:09
https://lemmy.world/post/7598287
#vegan
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Comment content removed because it makes no sense without the parent comment
Veganism is a choice that I respect, but after all we are omnivores, the dental folding and creases of our teeth are designed both for eating vegetables and for consumption of meat. And of the two, only vegetables actually are problematic in human digestion and can sometimes rot in the gut.
Also, interestingly, experts are now saying you SHOULD eat some bacon in your diet no matter what - it has the same Omega 3 fatty acids in its fat that fish has, and is actually good for your heart (not in massive quantities). So we've gone from banning bacon, to seeing it as a beneficial food.
For myself, I can't imagine not enjoying meat right off the bone, from a good pork chop, spare rib, or chicken wing. To me it's one of the most primal and satisfying of gustatory pleasures. But, I do see why other people choose not to consume meat, and I just hope they are staying well nourished and getting protein in some form.
I’m not a vegan but this is a bad argument. You don’t need back to get omega3s. Omnivore means you CAN eat meat, not that you NEED to eat meat. That would make you a carnivore.
Nobody cares about if you like eating those things, by the way. Not sure why you bothered to tell everyone about your food preferences with such detail except to get a rise out of Vegans, jeez. It’s also pretty hilarious that you brought up your “concern” for them given the text in the screenshot lol
Right, you can get plenty of fats from a vegan diet if you are smart about it. The tough part seems to be getting enough healthy fats and proteins. In both keto and vegan diets you can follow the diet and absolutely destroy your body if you don't also pay attention to essential fats, vitamins, etc.
Should be noted that you can actually do keto vegetarian but boy will it be hard. The more restrictive the diet, the more you need to pay attention to in terms of your nutrition.
Yeah but that’s what the screenshot is talking about. People are so quick to express “concern” to vegans but not keto eaters
I think people are just addicted to meat, most people are convinced we need it in almost every meal. So they feel threatened, like threatening to take your last beer away threatened. Veganism aside, if the general population went to a much lower quantity of meat eating (like a couple times a week instead of a day) we would all be so much better off.
I stopped cooking meat at home and my consumption of it plummeted. For now, I will still eat it at restaurants or when my friends and family cook it…but I don’t feel like I “need” it like I used to.
This was a big game changer for me - just learning how to cook delicious veggies/plant-based foods at home dropped my meat consumption dramatically. From there I started noticing which restaurants actually had good vegan/vegetarian options, and as my pallette shifted, so did my list of favorite restaurants.
That’s how I picture it going going for me, too. Some people might say to just rip the band-aid off but I know myself too well - if I jump in fully, I’ll eventually crack and feel so bad about it I’ll give up the idea entirely. So I’m going slow and letting it happen naturally. I’m a few years in and I barely eat red meat but bacon and chicken are still obstacles to overcome
Nah man if you halve your current meat consumption you are doing a big benefit to society and it’s much easier than going 100%. You don’t really need to go 100% either, if it’s about environment, eating sometimes whatever you want is completely valid, and I don’t think I’ve met any vegan/vegetarian that criticises that.
If you want to sprinkle your beans with a bit of bacon, it’s tasty as hell and not that big of a deal. If you want to eat some lentils with carrots and some slices of chorizo, it’s really fine. Some days you will feel like eating fries with fake fish sticks, some days you will prefer to eat a sandwich with a slice of ham, idc. It’s all really about reducing the intake and then, after doing it, having more freedom for picking higher quality products, which are more expensive but now you can allow them since you eat so much less of them.
You don’t even need to be smart about it. French fries are vegan. As are Oreos, and probably a billion other things that can get you plenty of fats without trying.
People seem to have the misconception that vegans just eat raw fruits and veggies all day (as evidenced by the fact that the “vegan option” at my work Halloween party was just a Costco fruit bowl). Most of the cooked veggies I eat are tossed in olive or avocado oil, a great source of fats.
Sure, some of the vegans I know supplement D3 and B12 because plant based foods, unless fortified, are lacking in these nutrients, but guess what, those are super easy things to pick up at the grocery store vitamin aisle - a small price to pay for all of the other benefits of going vegan.
All of that said, I’ve never met a vegan who had any difficulty getting enough fat in their diet.
More people should be taking care of their vitamin D levels. It’s a really common deficiency.
Getting enough fat is easy, but my vegan recipes are the only ones that I intentionally add extra oil to fix the macros. It’s just easier to eat a reasonable amount of fat on a vegan diet compared to a constant excess in a non vegan diet.
You shouldnt be using vitamin pills for any dietary supplement. You uptake ~10-30% if youre lucky. The pill goes right through you. It needs to be in a food item with some mass, so it stays within the digestive tract.
…but you still get the 10-30%?
Yeah, it has worse uptake, just eat it with food.
Eating it with food doesnt change the uptake. It doesnt magically undissolve because there is food sitting beside it.
If youre only getting 10-30% of a supplemental nutrient, youre going to still be deficient. Youre just now spending money to be deficient, when before you got to keep the money.
…you do realize that if your body takes up too little, you just eat more, right?
I’ve taken blood tests. Nutrients in pill form work just fine.
Oh, cool, youve taken blood tests. Ill tell the body of research to burn their papers.
So, my doctor’s are wrong, my blood tests are fake, the healthcare guidelines to take supplements of you are deficient are wrong, and 10-30% uptake actually means 0% uptake?
The scientific consensus is that supplements work just fine to treat nutrient deficiencies.
Yeah yeah, youre living proof that published research is all lies and scientists are all fakers, we get it. And Im former president obama
Do you honestly think that the scientific consensus is that nutrient supplements don’t work for treating deficiencies?
You can google the papers yourself, I didnt make up that 10-30%. This is a known issue with pill supplements, and a massive criticism of the industry. Its a known scam, a waste of money that means people are “fixing” problems by buying expensive powder pills that do nothing for them.
Theres a minor push among medical professionals to stop advising patients take supplements and instead reccomend specific dietary additions, but there is some speculation that the reason its not taken on by more doctors is a mix of inertial laziness of “good enough” medicine practices and supplement manufacturers paying doctors for their brand to be the reccomendation of choice.
But sure bud, your anecdote about a blood test undermines all of that from the ground up.
You keep saying 10-30% and then that they are ineffectual. So which is it? Clearly you then absorb 10-30% of the nutrients.
And yeah, I don’t think doctors are being paid by private companies to advertise here in Norway. Especially because I get prescribed generic versions.
Generic versions are still a brand being advertised, you just arent the person advertised to.
If you think a maximal 30% intake of a deficient nutrient is enough to prevent the problems youre taking supplements for, youre absolutely the target demographic for this scam.
But you clearly are more interested in an internet gotcha than your own health, so by all means bud. I dont give a shit if youre sick, and if you dont either more power to ya
Yeah, I’m sure you know more than my doctor.
Right, right, right. Thats why I cited my personal blood test, and not multiple public peer reviewed research papers.
Anti science kooks are a riot man, you should take this show on tour
Hey, kook, did it ever once occur to you that the reason youre “totally real and definitely happened” blood test comes up in the green is cause your diet is already sufficient? And your doc has you buying useless powder for no gain?
No, couldnt be. Perish the thought.
Fine.
www.nhs.uk/…/do-i-need-vitamin-supplements/
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6775441/ under supplementation
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9710417/ Under importance of dietary supplements
www.who.int/health-topics/micronutrients#tab=tab_…
First link is literally irrelevant
Second link, under your chosen section, used child gummi supplements which I explicitly said are suspected to avoid the powder pill problem E:( also this is about starving child deficiency, the one situation where a 10% intake means you are going from ZERO to SOME, so unless you are a starving stunted child its hardly a relevant comparison.)
Third study has a 3rd hand report of some correlation at multi vitamin use and lack of deficiency, the source of which did not show causation and did not even control for other dietary intake sources or socio-economic factors as an impact on diet
Last link is just like the first, neither research nor relevant
Were you hoping I would see blue links, get scared, and not click them?
Government sources, as well as the bloody WHO out of all sources, is irrelevant. Yeah, sure. I’ll just listen to a rando instead of an organization lead by the leading experts in the medical field as well as my doctor.
Jesus Christ.
I have noticed you also never bothered to link anything of your own.
You cited a private blood test, I assumed you wouldnt read anything I gave you. Also, Im not your mother, the issues with these pills is widely googleable.
Government wiki paragraphs with the quality, accuracy, and peer review quality of webmd are 100% not sources, thats correct. You also shouldnt cite them in your science paper this term. Notice how the actual peer reviewed studies got proper responses? Shocker.
Lmao, no sources of your own. Figures.
Easy to dish out but not to take, eh?
Did you want me to go dig up those reports? I can do that for you when I get home, I just figured you got your blood test and you have repeatedly told me you do not value my input at all.
I wasnt about to waste the time reading papers to make sure I grab the right link for some numbnuts who wouldnt click em. Do you need me to do that for you?
Also looool, yeah bud its very easy to dish out a bunch of completely irrelevant links when you think a link is just a hollow gotcha that no one will read. Shame you couldnt find anything relevant, but if you need me to show you how to do that I am happy to.
Hey, actually? I got super lucky with the first article I found.
www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/8/1096
So for starters, this is specifically for B12. Not intentional, as my point applies to all powder pills, but sure as shit topical.
Article details dietary B12, an equivalent intake pill B12 supplement, and a 4x intake pill B12 supplement.
The dietary? Restored the deficiency.
The 2 pills? Not only signifigantly less effective, but also almost equivalently so.
Thats insane. I assumed that quadrupaling the dose would improve the intake, its just a huge waste of money to eat 4-8 vitamin pills a day. But the study shows a quadruple dose is completely ineffective!
Also, (and I skimmed this specific bit from the results) it seems that the pill based intake was primarily in the liver. Now, the study correctly makes no causational link here, but that lightly implies that the liver is filtering out supplementals rather than letting it enter the dietary process. No clue if thats true, but a big possibility that I hope gets looked into further.
(Article also implies its not the powder pill form but rather the dietary type used in the pill. But it doesnt isolate powder sources of both versions of B12, so thats not conclusive.)
So, uh. Yeah. Big research article for you, the pill doesnt do shit, eating more of them also doesnt do shit, you need to be eating it in the food.
And yet it does improve B12 levels sufficiently to resolve what would be a deficiency for rats.
I never claimed that dietary nutrients don’t have a better uptake.
In addition, while rats and humans are similar, it’s still done on rats and not humans. Maybe instead of a daily pill the rats needed a pill twice a day? And if we were rats that’s what would recommendation would be? After all, rats need a lot more B12 than we do. In addition, this was just 6 weeks. Maybe given sufficient time both methods work just fine? You should note that even the dietary B12 failed to raise B12 levels back to the original value. The timescale may just be too short.
Sure, interesting study, but it’s not conclusive for humans.
As a last note, the study that seems to be most commonly cited is www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2532799/
The study literally demonstrated that a quadruple dose only provided a partial effective intake for the liver and failed to provide enough for the brain, and you think a double dose would work? The kook strikes again!
Also, you understand that rats are used for nutrient studies because our digestive systems are insanely similar? “Hurr but Im not a rat” hasnt been a real rebuttal in a century.
Wild, who would have guessed the blood test kook would deny peer reviewed evidence. Oh, shit, it was me? I called that? Gnarly. Guess I was right, giving you the link was a waste of time.
Cited about what? That study appears to be about diagnosing cause of specifically B12 deficiencies and response to injections, which 1) has nothing to do with powder pill vitamin intake and 2) is talking about malabsorption, not suplementation of an intentionally abandoned dietary intake.
If you want to talk about a study, you need to say what your context is. Lol who am I kidding, the kook doesnt give a shit about science
Many medicines have low uptake efficiency. It just means you need to take 3-10 times the dose you need. Like if your body needs 10mg, you might need to take a 30 to 100mg pill.
These arent meds.
It is clearly possible to have healthy vegan diet, you do have to plan what you eat to have necessary nutrition. If you do not do that, then there is a rather high chance of malnutrition, especially in children. This chance is much less if you are not vegan. This is why people express concern.
Sure, but why is it socially acceptable to be “concerned” about vegans in general and not meat-eaters who eat like shit? It’s fake concern 99% of the time. Just people pretending to be better than others because they don’t agree with the life choices that don’t affect them in any way.
The #1 reason for not going vegan isn’t the health concerns, it’s because you were raised eating meat and can’t imagine not having it. I will fully admit that’s why I haven’t made the change but I’m not here spouting bullshit to vegans
Why do you say it is not socially acceptable to ask this question to meat eaters? I am on keto diet for many years and regularly receive questions about it. I would just object to the classification that “I eat like shit”, but other than that everything goes.
Bad phrasing, honestly. You just don’t really see other diets getting “concerned citizens” chiming in every time
What world do you live in where only vegan diets are scrutinized? Because it isnt the real world.
literally this thread we’re talking in wtf dude
My replies started because of a commenter “concerned” that vegans were malnourished.
Literally this thread has multiple people correcting OP for falsely stating vegans are singled out for diet based criticism wtf dude
If you think keto diets arent criticized, you arent living in the real world. This thread is a strawman.
Nah, I don’t plan shit. I just listen to my body and it tells me if I’m missing something. It’s been evolving to keep me alive for billions of years, it knows what’s up. I just have to know how to listen.
B12 would be a much better argument tbh. That said, modern vegan diets can have enough B12 if theyre fortified. IF being the key word.
Doesn’t really matter what it is. There’s healthy people and unhealthy people and the dividing line isn’t vegan/non-vegan. The post is about veganism being a target of “concern” by on-lookers when other diets have equally real health concerns
they inject animals with b12 supplements. So yo may as well take the supplement yourself
Grain fed cattle are fed a Cobalt mineral supplement because grains do not have significant amounts of Cobalt. Grass fed cattle,fish and other animals typically do obtain enough B12 or Cobalt from their diet to not require supplementation i.e free range/organic farms/ranches.
So basically, the fact that factory farms need to supplement their cattle with Cobalt is something vegans should be talking more about because it is arguably another example of cruelty that vegans wish to avoid participating in.
We're not carnivores just because meat is part of our diet; we're omnivores. Meaning, if you look at both the zoological anatomy of humans and their physiology, we're MADE to eat both meat AND vegetables. I'm not claiming we should only eat meat. And being dismissive of my point of view by saying "nobody cares about if you like to eat those things" is very childish indeed.
You're going to have to learn that other people have different points of view, that don't always agree with yours. And it takes maturity to see why that's an important facet of human interaction.
I feel like you didn’t even read what I wrote. Humans are CAPABLE of receiving energy through meat, they do not require it. I never claimed you thought humans were carnivores. Teeth aren’t what makes it possible so I’m not sure why you brought it up. If you chop up a steak really tiny and feed it to a pure herbivore, they’re gonna get sick or die. So quit citing “science” when you clearly don’t understand it.
I’m dismissive of your unnecessary inclusion of your personal food preferences because it’s completely unnecessary to the conversation. Yet you went into vivid details about meat on a VEGAN community. If you didn’t write that specifically to bother people here then it’s you who needs to work on their communication skills.
Do you go to the StopDrinking community and start talking about the things you like about alcohol, too? Get off your high horse, you’re not fooling anyone.
But you aren't correct. Humans DO require energy and protein from meat - we are built to consume meat and our systems are specifically designed for processing it. The reason I bring up tooth structure is because that's the primary way that zoologists and biologists identify carnivores and omnivores from herbivores - by means of their dental structures.
No human was meant to be a pure herbivore. I'm not saying they can't do it and survive - just that it's not what we were meant to be. You are dismissive of my food preferences precisely because you are unwilling to accept any other person's point of view. You keep saying I'm not reading what you're writing, but the opposite is true - you aren't, and you're not willing to even consider my points.
And the very childish idea that this forum or ANY forum is only for ONE point of view and no other is disgusting. You need to grow up, and start realizing that the world is full of people who have ideas and opinions that may not always align with your own. You're the one on the high horse - and possibly high on horse, for all I know. So stop being an asshole and start listening for a change.
Omnivores do not NEED energy from meat. Full stop. Teeth are just an indicator, not the definer.
No dude, I’m not dismissive of your food preferences. I am a meat eater as I pointed out in my first reply and it’s pretty clear I was being dismissive of you describing eating meat in detail to get a rise out of people. Now I’ll be truly rude: Learn to fuckin read.
Leave the last word if it will make you feel better but this is the end of my replies
K
Your post started off weak and got weaker and weaker until you finally succumbed to your true thoughts: "eating animals feels good."
Omega 3 in bacon is virtually non-existent. It's a 1:10 ratio omega 3 to omega 6, versus 1:1 in fish. It's the ratio that matters, not the absolute amount.
LMAO who asked???
Yeah that is strictly incorrect. Adding vegetables to your diet has been empirically proven to be good for gut health.
I’m not wasting my time reading the rest of this.
So you just mansplained exactly what this meme is about? Feel better about yourself?
The best source of Omega acids is plant oils such as as Olive, Rapeseed, Walnut or Linenseed oil.
Bacon isn’t very good
nigella lawson stop pronouncing microwave wrong
The way I see it, eating meat is an act of desperation akin to the Soviets eating human beings during the battle of Stalingrad. There used to be agricultural reasons for it but the way we practice it now is laced with corruption and suffering.
stfu
“Rot” is kind of a loaded term. Our gut flora are an important part of digestion and essential to human health.
Even 100% grass fed (extremely rare) livestock products really don’t have high quantities of omega 3s. Seeds are one of the best sources, and if you are concerned about ALA conversion then then algae is probably the best source, that’s where the fish get it from.
Everything that’s not a refined food has protein pretty much. And save a few categories like grains and fruits most have a good portion of protein relative to their macros and a good distribution of aminos. It would be difficult to not get enough protein eating WFPB, but even if you do include refined foods and more grains in your diet you likely just need to eat beans and veg to balance it out. Basically don’t eat an exclusively bananas and rice diet and you’ll probably be fine.
This dude wants to be a predator and eat meat from the bone cause it’s natural!
This dude also shits inside, enjoys indoor temperature control, goes to the doctor for meds and drives an ICE vehicle… LIKE A REAL CAVEMAN!
I’ve never understood full veganism. Is it not morally okay to consume animal products (such as milk or eggs) from actual free roaming and happy animals? And not the BS marketed “free range” products in the US.
Say I have 10 acres and keep a dozen or so chickens to roam around and eat all the ticks on my property, is it morally wrong to eat their eggs?
Yes faggot animal slavery
Back to 4chan with you
I’m not Vegan, so I can’t speak for them, but here’s my understanding
if you live in an urban environment, it’s basically impossible to get what you’re referring to. Maybe if you were willing to have it shipped to you at great cost and not insignificant effort, but the only thing available at stores in the US is the BS marketed “free range” stuff. And even if you find a place that claims to be the real deal, how do you verify? Basically, it’s easier for most people to just go Vegan then to seriously vet every source of animal products
Additionally, many vegans believe it to be a genuinely healthier diet than an omnivore diet. And please don’t respond with " we evolved to be meat eaters" or something like that, because we didn’t “evolve” to do practically any of the things modern life entails, including a lot of what we eat. Beyond that one BS counterargument though, I make no claims as to whether they’re right. Anecdotally, my sister in law suffered from IBS her whole life until she went Vegan, when the problem went away entirely. So it certainly has benefit for some people
Finally, for a lot of vegans it’s an issue of consent - some might say that you shouldn’t eat those eggs in your example for the simple reason that they don’t belong to you, and you can’t morally take them, because theres no way to ask consent, and so you shouldn’t. Again, you don’t have to agree with the outlook, but that’s the way several vegans have explained it to me.
If any actual vegans come along and think I’m misrepresenting something, feel free to correct it
more or less sums it up. Source: vegan AF
Wanted to add a few arguments I saw about eggs, first that we selectively bred chickens to produce eggs at an extremely high rate (unsure what this does to their well-being, but apparently the laying itself is painless). Second, the chicken’s eggs could be seen as the “work” they do in exchange for keeping them healthy and happy.
The eggshell requires calcium. At the rates at which modern egg laying hens ovulate, their bones become far more fragile to siphon it. That is to say that their ability to self sustain and survive for the total lifespan of a chicken is greatly reduced.
Thats only if you arent feeding them a regular source of calcium.
Which would happen to literally any animal not properly fed.
Supplements and well managed diets do help, but of the available data, it looks like 12-35% are still deficient depending on area of the world. I checked for studies in USA and Europe. And of course, once that’s determined for particular chicken who end up producing thin shell eggs - they get killed.
And ultimately, they’ve been bred to rely on said diet and supplementing. Vegans are against breeding as it is, let alone breeding them to be dependent.
Almost all domestic animals are dependant, thats how mutualistic symbiotic partnerships work. Humans are only recently arguably capable of abandoning that dependance, none of our symbiotic partners can match that. Im really creeped out by what youre implying here, we shouldnt kill off our evolutionary partners just because we dont need them any longer.
And… “Bred to rely on said diet” is a crazy thing to say, no? All animals rely on their diet. Some breeds of chicken have a higher calcium intake requirement, but so do some breeds of human. Not an excuse nor reason to drive either extinct.
Homie the problem with breeding them like this is selecting them to ovulate 300 times a year so we can steal their excretions.
Symbiotic relationships don’t involve human breeding intervention. Least of all when it’s for selecting traits that come to the animal’s detriment. I’m not opposed to rescuing animals or providing accomodations for animals facing extinction so as to safetly raise young with minimimal human interaction.
You know what else isn’t a partnership? Slitting their throats. Which happens to these chickens. Thats creepy. Assuming you aren’t Vegan, which I don’t think you identify as much, idk why you care if they go extinct - because you want to keep eating them? I just don’t see good faith framing in your interpretation of what I said at all.
You in the wrong sub my dude. No one asked them to unbirth themselves. More bad faith shit. They slit their throats. Really fucked up that you are okay with that. Weird priorities youve got in the Vegan subreddit. Dumby dumb dumb I am telling you that forcibly breeding them is immoral. Anyway bye carnist.
This is such an unhinged response
Carnism is unhinged. I.e. your lifestyle is unhinged.
Aight eugenicist
Thats cute. Keep up with the animal holocaust animal abuser. Force breeding for human desired traits is itself literally eugenics.
Youre illiterate or a troll, eugenicist
<img alt="" src="https://discuss.tchncs.de/pictrs/image/12034b0f-e3a0-4aff-a104-0f93eda57e65.png">
Thanks for the info, that makes a lot of sense.
When they are kept happy and healthy I personally don’t disagree yeah, but frankly how many of us here actually get our eggs from sources like that?
If I were ever to go Vegan, I probably wouldn’t mind eating eggs laid up in environments like that, but I also don’t blame vegans who’d rather just simplify things by cutting it out entirely than having to morally evaluate every egg they eat
@bitsplease @Poem_for_your_sprog Pretty much. Just also want to add that if we want to make eggs or dairy a staple of our diet (especially dairy), it requires essentially treating other living beings as factories to be abused until they die. Like, cows don't continuously produce milk all the time, right? They have to give birth and *then* they start producing milk (like literally every mammal). So if we want milk on demand, we need to keep cows continuously pregnant, clearly abuse.
Yeah definitely impossible for a lot of people. I live somewhere that I can do this and even get eggs from those people. Mmmm tick eggs.
Society doesn’t work on edge cases. But for the sake of argument:
If that’s all the animal products you eat, these chickens are not selected through the common practice of grinding male chicks, the hens are going to die of old age, etc etc etc - for what I’m concerned you’re vegan.
Veganism is about ethics, not diet. Diet is a mere consequence. Lab grown meat is more vegan than coconut gathered by enslaved monkeys (yes it’s a thing).
So if you fine one such farm where animals are never killed or otherwise exploited then by all means, eat those eggs and call yourself a vegan. But something tells me you won’t find it.
Adding to this - I really want to emphasize how much of an edge case this is.
Around 60% of the world’s population lives in urban environments, and only ~10-15% of the population works in agriculture where one might expect to encounter a scenario like this.
Living on 10 acres and raising chickens who you hug every night before bed and treat with the utmost respect is a nice ideal to strive for, but it is not achievable for most people, and there is no scenario where we maintain global meat & dairy consumption levels ethically/sustainably. Treating it as a viable solution is disingenuous because it’s only a solution for a limited few.
There’s a lot of those places in my area, at least for chickens. Not so much for dairy cows.
A lot of places where all chickens die of old age and males don’t get killed as chicks. Really. Go to one of those places then, check the hen/rooster ratio (should be 50/50) and ask them what happens when hens no longer lay down eggs. Do let me know please.
People are vegetarian and vegan for a variety of reasons. There is also no reason people need to live their life confined to a label. The labels are helpful for quick understanding, such as ordering meals and discussing these topics, but people are more varried than labels.
I've been a full vegetarian for over 22 years but before that I only ate meat that I hunted or fished myself. I didn't call myself a vegetarian then, but ordered vegetarian when eating out. I probably had similar ethos to some including a dislike of the commercial meat industry, while others would still abhor that I was harvesting my own meat from the forest.
So what I would say to your question is why do you worry about attaining the label of vegan? If you or someone else is sourcing animals in a way that you feel is ethical, then simply be a conscientious consumer who orders vegan when eating out. As a bonus, you sidestep all the confusion around the label and the different reasons people have for using it.
I think there’s some information you don’t know about milk and eggs: milk is produced by forcing a cow to be pregnant (they call the rack they tie them to for breeding the rape rack), and then forcibly removing her calves from her and stealing her milk. It’s terrible. And eggs are forced to be produced by grinding up male chicks so that females produce more. It’s honestly terrible.
You are intentionally ignoring what they said about hens on their own property.
How do you think the cow would get pregnant or where you’d get the eggs from?
I get eggs from our own chickens. Six chickens and a rooster. Hatched them myself, originally had two roosters. The other rooster went to a local petting zoo which had some hens, but their rooster had died.
By the way, six chickens lay a lot of eggs, more than a family of four eats.
But where did your chickens come from? They were sorted by sex and the males thrown in a grinder.
They just told you they hatched them themselves.
The chickens they hatched from did not appear out of thin air.
So we need to make chickens extinct, because at some point in their genetic history they might have been abused? Its impossible to treat someone well if there is any history of abuse in their lineage or ancestry?
If thats the ideology of veganism, you are worse than eugenicists.
I got the eggs from my neighbour across the street. He also doesn't own a grinder.
Do I need to promote my chicken’s lineage back to before they were domesticated?
I’m referring more to small farm chickens or chickens that are basically pets (they still plop out tons of eggs). All of the factory farmed products are definitely terrible.
And to clarify I’m not against veganism at all, just curious where/why lines are drawn.
A cousin of mine literally owns chickens and won’t eat their eggs. I don’t get it.
What a weirdo. I know someone who’s dog died at a prime age and they didn’t even eat it.
They are selectively bred to overproduce eggs which shortens their lifespan significantly. Also they cannot consent to you taking their eggs away, in the same way it is wrong to steal from someone else.
Idk man eating eggs kinda weird ? You eat spider eggs?
Eating plants is kinda weird too. I mean, do you eat hard wood?
Guilty conscience meat eaters use concern trolling to salvage their own self-esteem. In my experience, those expressions of worry are back handed compliments at best. They never come from people who are in better shape than I am and they don’t come from people with better nutrition either.
Wow you really nailed it.
I lost 58kg and the only things I ever heard was concern trolling from my friends that resented me for doing what they could not.
Never heard word one about my body while I was unhealthy and unhappy, and the shitty remarks started as soon as the weight reduction became noticeable.
“Woah slow down, don’t want you to disappear!” “You’ve proven your point! You can eat a donut!” “Why do you want to be miserable and only eat seeds?” “Fuck dude you’re vanishing! Eat a hamburger!” “You think you’re better than everyone now!” “It’s actually really unhealthy to be as lean as you’ve become.” “Don’t like hanging out anymore, you make me think about every molecule I put in my damned mouth!” “You look like a skeleton now.”
And so forth.
Wow those are shitty people. Good on you for losing that weight, as a hefty fellow it’s fucking haaaaard work and you should be proud of the effort you put in!
Thanks for the support!
I made so many changes in my journey. I taught myself to cook and made every meal from scratch ingredients… for 6 months. I’m reminiscing now thinking about how many tortillas I’ve pressed, sauces I’ve made, things I’ve fermented, and hundreds of hours on the cutting board. How many times I ordered a “kid size” pizza or sundae on my “cheat” days lol
I ran (poorly), swam, rode, lifted and burned so many calories. I meditated every day and did monthly therapy to help with the mental stress of the physical and lifestyle changes. That is all time, effort, pain, money, and sacrifice.
Every day without wavering I made a hundred difficult little choices that prioritized my goals vs my desires/old patterns. Food everywhere and people genuinely insulted when I wouldn’t partake with them or in their way. Watching my friends literally not enjoy their meal from their own shame, just because my serving was conspicuously smaller. Dealing with my biology compelling me to eat one way while I was consciously reprogramming myself to eat another way. Massive social pressures from all sides.
I never really even told anybody of my goals or changes. I didn’t make it my personality or a thing. Never spoke of it once or advocated anything to my friends. Only spoke about being slimmer when specifically asked.
That’s why it was so hurtful to undertake such tremendous responsibility for my own personal transformation, and then have people internalize it, make my journey about how them and how they feel shitty when they look at me, then make a snide or sinister comment. Only my best friend of 30 years gave me any positive feedback.
The whole thing was kind of a rough ride. Worth it in the end, but wow it was so much more than just eating less.
Thanks for listening. I really appreciate your comment a lot!
Good on you, yeah you can’t downplay the fortitude required to make such life altering changes. It’s so easy to slip back into the status quo. That being said for anyone else reading, if you’ve tried, and failed, remember that you got further along than if you never tried at all. Keep at it, don’t beat yourself up, you can do it!
Wow this is the truth of the post. Not just that it ia demeaning that vegans get harassed but why it’s counter to the reality of the effort being made.
Such and interesting read and I hope you found it worth it in the end…! You’ve verbalised a lot of my experiences with quitting alcohol. It was the hardest thing I’ve done and lost a lot of ‘friends’ along the way. But ended up happier, healthier, and genuinely enjoying life again.
Good for you my friend! Yes it was the same thing when I quit alcohol 8 years ago! Quickly find out that people are happy for you to quit drinking until you actually do it, then it’s like … what you think you’re better than me? Come on have a drink!
Congrats on the weight loss.
I had to stop at 40Kg because my heart meds went out of balance… and have pretty quickly gained 12Kg since.
Ah that’s interesting and something I hadn’t considered. I wasn’t really on any meds except Nexium at the time. Is your heart medication dose dependent on weight? I genuinely don’t know anything about the conditions or treatment.
What do you credit for the 12kg regaining? Just wondering, my weight still swings about 8kg this way and that but I seem to have generally stabilized in a range.
It’s somewhat interesting, because the main heart meds are metabolic blockers (ramipril and bisoprolol, respectively an angiotensin-converting enzime inhibitor, and a beta1-selective blocker that inhibits cAMP phosphorylation), so they can only block certain metabolic paths and once that’s done, they can’t have more effect no matter the dose (they’re basically non-overdoseable).
But… at the same time, I had a diuretic added on (dapagliflozin) as part of a combined diabetes treatment, that used to work fine at the top weight, but at the bottom weight turned out to both reduce blood volume, impacting blood pressure, and lower blood sugar by too much, so that one had to go.
Reduction in stress (an extreme stress peak is what made me lose most of the weight), along with depression, and general despair due to a double back hernia that left me barely able to walk. I’m slightly better now after some physiotherapy, but still moving way less than before, so it’s anyone’s guess how it will go. It also made me switch to a worse diet, since I can’t stay up long enough to prepare healthier stuff.
Thanks for sharing, I don’t know why you are being downvoted or who is in this thread being a dick.
Virtually nobody who eats meat feels guilty about it. Animals are there to be food. If there was a life form that could eat me it would, and I’d have to accept that.
You think animals are there for a fated reason? Like all animals have a destiny? Because your comment relies on this notion.
Sure if you’re both Stretch Armstrong lol. They’re both silly appeals to extreme.
Could you find a situation where something is there to be or do something without it being decided beforehand?
Everything is food for something. It’s not fate, it’s just fact.
Now apply that to something you disagree with and see how you go.
Most things I disagree with aren’t food, though.
Except kale. Fuck kale.
You don’t need to use swear words.
The ones who felt guilty about it in this context have stopped doing it. You must have felt so smart though!
Ever heard of cannibalism?.. or E. Coli, just get a bit in your blood and it will eat you in no time (aka: sepsis).
Actually every human has some E. Coli in their gut - it's one of the many flora that inhabit our digestive tracts. And what's so bad about cannibalism? Those people in the Andes only survived because they ate their dead teammates, and some of them even said they'd do it again because it's the only thing that prevented them from starvation.
We bred them to be like that tho there were wild versions of chickens. Ever seen a wild turkey? Fuuuuck. Talk about risk if you miss that things taking an eye out. Bovines were easier prey but in the wild would have been protected by bulls, I think?
Okay, let someone murder you and eat you if they are hungry then. Plenty of people go hungry each year, why don’t we eat each other? Or why won’t you capture and eat my dog?
How do you know if you haven’t tried?
How do you know I’m not Korean? 😂
You have to be truly deranged to compare the rights of lower lifeforms to those of humans.
This, ladies, gentlemen, and nonbinaries in finery, is what fascism looks like. “I’m biologically superior”, “I can do whatever I want with lesser beings”, “the whole world exists to serve me”, “I can create an industrial machine of killing for my pleasure”. That’s called fascism. And we don’t tolerate fascists.
Really funny when twelve year olds learn the word fascist then just start calling everyone and everything fascist 😂
OMG you’re such a fuckin fascist
No you
I felt guilty about it and became a vegetarian and, once I leaned about how milk and eggs lead to death and suffering, a vegan. I have been so for 10 years plus now.
Yes, but only in the same sense that woman are there for the plesure and serving of men. It’s a social construction and is, as it thankfully has with the perception of woman, changing.
I don’t think so. I think you’d ramble in about how unethical it is to eat a sentient beeing and how cruel this hypothetical lifeform is. Because that’s how we are build. It’s easiest for us to feel empathie towards our own sorry asses.
You can learn to expand your empathie tough. Start here. Watch it completely. No skipping. Then we can talk:
youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?si=MT8NgPIU0bpIpg3i
“I dont have a conscience so I assume no one else does either.”
Yeah, it’s called COVID-19. It wants to use your cell nuclei to grow its children from your body’s energy stores, and it doesn’t mind if it shuts down your respiratory system until you can’t breathe. And there are a hundred deadly diseases like it.
Every time you wash your hands, blow your nose with a tissue, or cover your mouth to cough, you are showing you value life above the supposed right of predators to eat you. And that’s okay. Everything has a right to live and that’s okay.
So you don’t eat medicines?
le epic funny 🤣🤣🤣
I’m gonna be honest, I wanted to argue against this, but I can’t deny it. I’m part of a relatively overweight family (actually mostly because of immune system problems that thankfully I didn’t inherit) and all I get from my parents are “You’re looking skinny” or “You’re worrying too much about weight” just because I want to exercise and eat well. Even then, I’m ~20lbs over weight. To be devil’s advocate, I think part of it is that overweight people have struggled with problems of being too hard on themselves before, and so don’t want to you fall into that, but go too far the other way. The conversation of overweight/vegans doesn’t exactly overlap perfectly, but it made me think of it.
nice strawman you've got there. people doing keto get harassed far more often about the bogus health implications of saturated fat. Shit I doubt the average person has ever even heard of anti-nutrients or thought twice about the nutritional value of plants beyond their prominent place in the antiquated food pyramid. but they know for a fact, duur fat=heart atak
Okay, but you do know that eating nothing but meat is bad for you? And eating buttloads of butter is not healthy? And vegetables have consistently proven health benefits?
This isn’t some wild theory.
you can also do plant based keto. just pointing out op is meming on something that literally never happens.
There are insanely unhealthy versions of pretty much any diet. I know plenty of vegans who gain weight because they end up chasing the same bad eating habits in plant form. Eating excessive amounts of fruit can still qualify you as a vegan but it won’t change the fact that you are on the fast track to diabetes. The dirtiest forms of dirty keto can lead to insane consumption of artificial sweetness or natural sugar substitutes which are riddled with their own health risks.
That said… Veganism and really vegetarianism to some degree is still a diet that people still seek for non-dietary motivations, and pretty much any restrictive diet is going to require a degree of finesse and knowledge to make sure that diet will be nutritionally sound. It’s not out of bounds to be concerned about someone you care about in those terms.
Okay, but you do know that keto includes plenty of vegetables and is not “nothing but meat”? Spinach, broccoli, bell peppers, cucumbers, salad, asparagus, olives, eggplants, avocadoes etc
Yeah, I did keto for awhile when I was younger and definitely got harassed about it.
It was also definitely really bad for me.
Maybe it has become worse since all those vegan or vegetarian fast food options became available in stores and restaurants.
When I hear non-vegs talk about living meat-free, the conversation always revolves around these meat substitutes, how unhealthy they are.
It does not come to their mind one can prepare a meal from fresh produce. Yes of course, fast food is unhealthy. On the other hand, I like it.
Are the meat substitutes actually bad, though? Certainly can’t be worse than normal fast food.
Assuming you’re asking about things like impossible and beyond meat. They are generally not “healthy” but one stark difference is they don’t have cholesterol.
Whether something is healthy or not is very contentious in the first place, especially with how much misinformation there is out there.
I just try to read the labels on the replacements I buy, and most of them just have many random vegetables and stuff, with a seemingly good balance in nutrients and so on. Maybe there is stuff I’m missing, but I don’t see much bad that can be in there.
I think the most important thing is to just have a relatively balanced diet.
I’d say that they are as healthy as the burger king meat they are substituting. I wouldn’t eat either but if you are there, picking either is equally bad so whatever.
Yeah they are better than fast food, even the fast food is healthier if you sub the meat. But that is a terrible benchmark to use.
Compare these meat substitutes to the humble bean and it’s no contest.
The unhealthiest part about them is just gonna be that they’re salty, fried and greasy, just like other fast food. It’s just a lump of plant fibres (usually peas or wheat these days, I find) thrown in a frier.
I assure you these people are not eating healthy meals lol, it’s all bad faith because the idea of them not eating meat makes them feel threatened about the size of their peepee.
Mum: Eat your vegetables
Carnists: I’m gonna pretend I didn’t hear that
A whole stick of butter? Like, unfried? Reminds me of the time we had houseguests, opened up the butter dish and found teeth marks.
No one believes it’s the cat, Susan.
You have to use flour to fry a stick of butter. Nobody on keto would touch it.
I went to college with a girl who would make butter popsicles - she just stuck popsicle sticks into sticks of butter and froze them, then ate them like popsicles. She didn’t have any kind of special diet, she just liked butter popsicles.
She had the worst skin FWIW.
This whole meme is based on a lie; people on a keto diet get harassed all the time.
That’s it. Had a buddy do it. Would order Burger, no bun. Obviously, we made a joke out of it. And that’s it. Nobody cares.
The only kid I’ve ever seen who looked like they were going to die like sickly pale I later found out was vegan, parents were anti vaxxers, believed essential oils can cure cancer, etc.
I’ve never seen anyone without an eating disorder who is an omnivore look deathly sick like that.
Unless you’re eating a ton of nuts and beans I fail to see how you get enough protein for 2gm of protein per lb of body weight. The math simply doesn’t add up.
Also I dont believe chickens cows or pigs have agency so morality isn’t relevant to me. I do want them killed as quickly as possible, though.
I try to buy local meat whenever possible (1/4 cow etc)
@Dkarma @BonesOfTheMoon You don't need 2gm/lb of bw, though. First, it would be per lb of *lean* bw. Second, it's actually more like *1* g/lb of lean bw, or 2.2 g/kg of lean bw **as an upper max**, like if you're a super body builder. For *regular* people, something much more like 1.5 g/kg of lean bw is totally sufficient.
Oh, and I eat a ton of legumes, so I can (and *do*) easily exceed that 2.2 g/kg threshold on my workout days.
Just eat easy vegan meat replacements and you’re fine. Especially eating soy is an easy way to get protein in. It’s not hard anymore.
@SkyeStarfall @Dkarma It never was, especially if you don't swallow that 2g/lb bullshit.
Don’t forget to eat your beans with that meat.
Just so you know, you don’t need the m if you’re talking about grams. The abbreviation is g, so 100g would be 100 grams. The metric prefixes can be used to scale your number, so 100g = 0.1kg = 100,000 mg.
I know, was just humoring OP.
I’m 206 pounds. Realistically I should be closer to 190. So for soybean to provide 380g of protein I’d need to eat a little more than a 1.05 kilos, 2.3 pounds of soybeans per day. That’s an unrealistic number, especially after figuring in its endocrine disrupter issues and that the vast majority of soybeans on the market are grown with unsustainable herbicide practices. Plus eating the same thing every day is the fast track to being extremely unhealthy.
I’m not trying to argue one needs to eat meat but I am strongly suggesting that before you ever make a similar comment in the future you include way more than soybeans as an alternative. Lentils, peas, different types of beans, anything more than one. I’d probably not look at true nuts because those have their own issues with water usage. Peanuts are not true nuts. They offer 25.8g of protein per 100g. Comparable with beef but a 10th the water needed of almonds.
I avoid soy whenever I can because of the environmental and endocrine disrupter issues.
Avoids soy because of the environmental and endocrine issues, but eats beef which is worse for the environment and contains actual mammalian oestrogen
We got a dumbass carnist over here
Did you see the part where I said I’m not recommending meat?
@FauxPseudo @jarfil You don't need 2g/lb of lean bw, though. The premise is *wildly* incorrect.
My comment was long enough so decided not to argue their premise on how much one needs, but just focus on the problems of eating as much soy as they said it would take using their numbers.
How much beef do you have to eat a day to hit the same goal?
Irrelevant. Because I specifically said I’m not recommending meat but advised they include some alternatives other than soy. Reread what I wrote. I wasn’t saying meat is the way. I was saying that soy by itself is not the way. Other vegan options exist.
Okay, so what do you think are the best foods to eat for a normal amount of protein?
Protein isn’t one thing. If you just look at the amount of total protein your body will fall apart. There are 21 amino acids that get counted in the total amount of protein you see on nutritional labels. Consume all the protein you want and it won’t matter if those 21 amino acids aren’t accounted for. Now the body can make more than half of them but there are 9 it can’t and you must eat.
Lentils are the one of the few vegan source of all 21 amino acids. A variety of beans and rice also offer a complete protein profile. Peas are decently high in protein but you will end up deficient in methionine and cysteine if you used it as your main protein source. That can be made up with quinoa and sunflower seeds. Which might sound odd but a cold quinoa, pea salad with sunflower seeds and a vinaigrette is very tasty. Quinoa is also a complete protein but trying to live off it is a thing for the wealthy. The trick is verity. I’ve met too many vegans living off French fries, meets the minimum for everything but leucine, and end up very unhealthy. Don’t look for one or even a couple of super protein sources. Eat a variety. It’s healthier and less likely to result in burnout.
Two grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is way overkill and there is zero evidence it helps anything. Even for people doing rigorous strength training, muscle gains cap out at 0.8-1g. If you’re not in the gym lifting heavy six days a week you don’t need more than 0.4.
Maybe get tested for sociopathy.
Lol udk what that means do you?
What specific nutrient can vegans not get on a plant based diet?
Bro there are dozens of species of mammals that get large amounts of protein from sources other than meat.
Yes, but they’re capable of ruminating and/or other tricks. (I think vegan and vegetarian diets are fine, just want to be accurate.)
Yeah that is true, I wish I had the stomach enzymes of a goat…
Humans are capable of eating an extremely broad variety of plants. Vegetarian diet is perfectly healthy for people. Vegan diet has only a few problems, which have already been solved. You can be vegan and live a very healthy life, but you have to supplement a few necessary nutrients. Meat has never been off the menu. It is possible to chose not to eat it, if you prefer that.
@Colorcodedresistor @wafflez What do you mean by meaningful? I almost feel like it's intentionally vague so as to be difficult to rebuke.
Do you just mean quantity or amount of protein? Or something else entirely.
It's my understanding that authorities on diet and nutrition all disagree with you. https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/how-to-eat-a-balanced-diet/the-vegan-diet/
It’s not about getting cancelled or politics, it’s about living up to the ideal that humans are actually better than that, that we can feel empathy and sadness for other creatures suffering, and it’s in our power to do something about it.
Potatoes.
Can? None. ACTUALLY IRL? PLENTY
Vitamin B-12 deficiency is more prevalent in vegans.
That doesn’t mean that vitamin diets always give you a deficiency. You can still get B12 as a vegan.
Never said you couldn’t. It’s just that a vegan diet is highly correlated with vitamin B12 deficiency.
Might aswell pop in supplements all day and call it a vegan diet if you want.
Yeah and heart disease is more prevalent in meat eaters. So what’s your point here?
Makes sense, since they’re heart deficient!
As someone who regularly works with registered dietitians in clinical settings, some of which hold PhDs, please stop spreading misinformation from a place of hate and prejudice.
<img alt="" src="https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/8434a010-2d98-42ed-9529-66d05cf5138a.webp">
<img alt="" src="https://slrpnk.net/pictrs/image/0141206a-3087-409d-a1e8-da10b0944d6a.webp">
Sources: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12778049/
They posted peer-reviewed papers from medical nutrition research groups, what exactly would be these researchers incentive for pushing misinformation about diets?
It’s all big eggplant man
I keep trying to plant eggs and they never grow. It’s a conspiracy.
Big Eggplant Man, the lesser known brother of Doctor Eggman
they posted that can indeed suck a black mans cock. but are you going to do that?
what exactly would these researchers incentive for pushing misinformation?
well…lets see, a failed degree and life choices coupled with the fact that if they don’t change tact they will be as rich as a mary K agent.
No sources and racism…
Post your peer reviewed contrary article about dicks so we can discuss instead
Dude, just do us all a favour and go back to twitter. You’re like the drunk homeless guy at the bar that brings the mood down for everyone else. And I get that you’re the kind of person that enjoys ruining things for other people, but can you just not? Just go outside or do something productive with your life instead?
Racialising penises is some fucking pathetic shit. Men who are confident in their masculinity don’t need to tie it or their penis to notions of race. They love their penises (or lack thereof) no matter what their colour, because masculinity comes from within, and it is embodied by strength of independent will. Whether you abandon your own strength and rest your masculinity on the social construct of supremacy, or think that another man’s race can overshadow your own independent manhood, you are pathetic, and unworthy to call yourself a man. The only identity you have succeeded in embodying is cowardice.
What too much meat does to a racist mf.
Legal bachelors is not the same as medical science you absolute dunce. So you just don’t believe people can do research on medicine?
Telling people how to diet? You clearly have absolutely no idea what a registered dietitian. I’m not going to waste any more time on an obvious troll.
Lol says you who is probably malnourished because you eat McDonald’s 3 meals a day.
Keto excludes high-carb foods like bread which almost never contribute to a person’s essential vitamin, mineral, and protein intake. Vegan, on the other hand, excludes plenty of foods that are common sources of essential nutrients and especially protein.
It’s obviously possible to be malnourished on any diet, but if you take a normal healthy diet and exclude keto-unfriendly items, it will almost certainly still be a healthy diet. If you did the same for vegan-unfriendly items, on the other hand, you’d almost certainly have an unhealthy diet without consciously finding suitable vegan replacements.
U
you managed to write a wall of text, but still use ‘u’ instead of ‘you’ 🤨
This is the only important part.
Vegan is fine if you’re replacing the stuff you take out, not just skip it. It’s easier now, but when vegan was just gaining traction, the alternatives weren’t as plentyful as they are now.
But just make sure your diet is well balanced.
Potatoes and beans fit nearly all your basic needs. When were potatoes and beans not plentiful? The irish potato famine?
He’s talking about before Sir Walter brought them back, when I were a kid we only had turnips and kale…
This is where you lost all cred. Not before the lack of carnatine.
You have a lot of bad information about keto. It certainly doesn’t make you lethargic or miserable, and definitely doesn’t starve your brain. Quite the opposite… it’s being used therapeutically for Parkinson’s disease One of the studies referenced in that article, found here is summarized this way
Regarding energy levels most people report having much more energy, and I suspect your friends issue while in the army doing PT was related to electrolytes. People going on any kind of whole food diet, which keto tends to be, often find they get very little salt in their new diet since they’re not eating processed food. People who work out or are otherwise very active often find they have to be intentional about adding salt to their diet or they will in fact find themselves tired and fatigued. Easy to remedy, and again a typical problem for anyone transitioning from a diet with lots of processed foods to one without.
There’s been a lot more un-biased study of keto diets in recent years and a lot better science. It’s not for everybody, but it’s not intrinsically unhealthy and way better than the traditional high-carb, high-sugar, high-processed food diet.
Also, a keto diet does not specifically include or exclude red meat. That’s an individuals choice, just like with virtually any other diet that includes animal protein.
Like what??? Seriously, except for B12 theres nothing a vegan diet doesnt have.
Pistachios are a full protein. Lentils Peas and Veggies make full proteins. What are you on about?
I think they mean if you were just to take your usual diet and remove certain items so as to make your diet keto friendly, you might be fine. But if you took a usual meat/dairy/egg diet and just stopped eating those fortified foods (without finding a substitution for those nutrients), you would be worse off.
Okay, i see what you mean. But i also see that that’s a dumb way to think about it? Who changes their diet by just not eating certain foods anymore without incorporating something else.
Some of the most nutritionally complete foods we can eat like spinach and other such veggies are limited (though not excluded) on a keto diet, meanwhile there is no limit to how much of these you can eat as a vegan. But also food isn’t just medicine or energy, it can also be poison, and other than refined junk it’s going to be the animal foods that are some of the deadliest.
I’ll agree with you that foods like wheat and rice are not very nutritious, but also they aren’t likely to be the foods that kill you, and you can easily not eat them. Meanwhile keto is very hard to do without animal foods, for many people it’s very hard to do even with animal foods. Keto doesn’t just require you to exclude a list of foods like you sell it, it has very strict macro requirements which requires monitoring your intake of many of the allowed foods.
I have never met someone on keto that has been as insufferable as a vegan.
Not all vegans are like this, but I have only seen vegans be so pompous about their diet.
Edit:
Ha, all these downvotes just prove it.
Nah, instead they eat raw testicles in cow’s milk and talk endlessly about how this was the way of people before the evils of agriculture.
You’re totally wrong, I only eat cooked testicles in cow’s milk. I’m not some barbarian.
When I am cutting on a LCHF diet I’ll sometimes take food with me to gathering so that I can remain focused. So, I’m not drinking, I’m staying well under 30g of sugar per day and I’m super focused on that and want to maintain a streak. Friends have become majorly hetup with me for refusing their famous carbonara or something and eating from my lunch box. Now, I understand how “weird” that is and I’ll take that but it’s not rude to decide what goes into my body. Check yourself.
As someone who has done keto in the past and someone who has been a vegan for years I agree, at least in regards to myself. But the key difference is veganism is not a diet, what vegans eat is just a consequence of their ethics. Vegans are insufferable because animal ethics are a serious moral issue. I disagree with the pompous part though. I don’t pat myself on the back for being vegan the same way I don’t pat myself on the back for not committing various other moral abuses. I’m not contributing anything positive to the world by being a vegan, but I’m hopefully stepping on the rights of others less.
It’s because it isn’t about diet. It’s a moral problem and those that reduce it to diet are purposefully avoiding the uncomfortable reality of finding one’s self on the wrong side.
It’s a moral problem for you. My vegan friend is vegan because she is a control freak. These are her own words.
You do you. I do meat.
Good for you, this is vegan@lemmy.world so likely no one gives a fuck
Do you feel better about yourself now that you came here and said that?
I do me. You do an innocent cow’s life.
I mean feed a hamster a vegan diet and see what happens if there’s another hamster with the vegan one… Missing out on some critical proteins and they will gladly eat their own kin to satisfy the missing nutrients
Why do the carnists feel the need to come into a vegan community and mansplain why they murder animals in so many ways?
Just browsing ‘all’ I’m not coming in here to hate, in fact i do love Buddhist meals with vermicelli and cloud ear mushrooms, 髮菜, and imitation abalone (braised wheat gluten)
That hamster should have invested in farming technologies and processed foods so he could eat a more varied and cruelty-free diet.
Oh wait, that’s humans! Humans have the ability to do those things. I get hamsters and humans confused a lot, too.
(By the way, I’m not vegan. I just see a lot of people who aren’t vegan, posting in a vegan community, with bad arguments and boring takes. I cannot stand bad arguments.)
Good thing were not fucking hamsters then isnt it???
“yeah well one time a hamster ate another hamster. Veganism defeated!”
Hi, thank you for participating in this community.
For the hamster’s sake, would you kindly cite this?
All of the hamsters around the world are eagerly awaiting you!
sciencenews.org/…/diet-corn-turns-wild-hamsters-c…
Thank you for posting this. I’d assume the hamsters wouldn’t do this if they were feed something else than just corn, but this is really interesting and morbid. I wish we would just plant crops responsibly to allow for biodiversity and crop variation for the bees as well.
why are there so many triggered omnis in this thread lmao
They don’t like feeling bad for the terrible things they do.
trolling vegans is one of the internet’s greatest past times, please respect my culture.
Murder is so hilarious guys!
see how easy it is ^^^
Many people start with the troll. it’s nothing most vegans have not dealt with a lot.
the best part is though, the troll gets exposed to the arguments for being vegan. there is probably a reason why they are so concerned with belittling and debasing.
Long story short, they often convert. Keep trolling bro.
The post is on the front page
Seriously, I’m not used to seeing this many comments with so many votes going either way. The post is so harmless.
I don’t care what or how people eat. I’m a bit concerned when people want to tell me what I or anyone can eat.
Is it ok to eat people?
As a human, I think it is okay to eat people. Humans are currently overpopulating our planet and have completely taken over. We don’t need that many humans. As a human, I may be very silly and cute, but when my species gets together to do something, we tend to make a big mess of it and just ruin everything. So we must reduce our population one way or another. Additionally, imagine how much meat one of us might have on our bones? Perhaps not as much as a cow, but when there are billions of us then that’s like, billions of pounds of meat! Wow! You like meat right? I know I do. That’s a lot of meat and it’s just right there. I know that personally if any small dinosaurs came up to me and started chewing on my legs I’d let them do it. I don’t need all my meat, you know?
Go green, eat human. Mother nature will thank you!
Sincerely,
- a human
Edit: oh no! I have made the human mistake of accidently saying I like meat on a vegan community post. This was a mistake because vegans do not like meat. I do not understand this because humans eat meat like all superior species. I do not understand why a human would want to eat only plants like human prey animals. I am a human and I like human meat, as it should be.
Edit 2: you know what, fuck this, y’all are way too dense. In what reality do people talk the way I was? Congrats, y’all ruined it.
Edit 3: since you only want very serious answers here’s a serious answer: the problem with human meat has less to do with morals or ethics and more to do with health and safety. Because you are a human, eating human meat, you can contract whatever diseases the human had before death if the meat is undercooked.
Additionally, there are a lot of parasites, like the lowly tapeworm, which are “”“safe”“” when a human consumes tainted animal meat; because the tapeworm thinks it’s in a human and is content to hangout in your intestines. However, if you consume tapeworm eggs that were laid by a “human” tapeworm, the tapeworms that hatch will think they’re in a pig and will have no issues burrowing through your muscles, internal organs and brain.
Another factor is that you are what you eat. There is a reason why humans typically don’t eat other predators like lions or tigers, and that’s because toxins like heavy metals tend to bioaccumulate in them.
Finally, most importantly, for reasons beyond my weak understanding of medical science, humans carry a high risk of prion diseases. Unlike the issues of parasites and diseases, you can not cook a human well enough to eliminate prions and still eat it. The human would be nothing more than ash because you’d have to cook the meat at thousands of degrees to destroy any potential prions the human might have been carrying. These are not something you fuck with. You cannot cure a prion disease. If you have the misfortune of eating something that has been contaminated with a prion, and one of your cells decided to do something with said prion, the only solution is to put your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye. You are now a dead man walking. You cannot be cured. A prion is not a virus. It is not a parasite, bacteria, or any form of fungus. It is simply a misfolded protein that your body thinks it can do something with. You will die. Your brain will look like swiss cheese. You will forget everyone you know and love, and there will be nothing you can do about it. Not only that, but again, for reasons beyond my understanding of medical science, your body will use that misfolded protein as a blueprint and will misfold other proteins to make them look like the prion. Your body will become a 3d printer for prions. Anyone who consumes your body will die.
I’m not a vegan but saying “humans eat meat like all superior species” is so weird bro like superior in what way?
Yes, yes! Humans are superior because they eat meat! Just like small dinosaurs do! But I eat more meat than they do. It is not fair. So I should share my meat with them! I do not need all of my human meat. I sit at my human computer all day, I do not need my human legs. If any small dinosaurs hid under my desk and ate my legs, I would not mind. They are hungry and need my meat, so I will let them have it.
Does this mean you are more “superior” than me because I do not eat meat?
You are arguing with someone who is roleplaying.
They are, as far as I can tell, pretending to be some small dinosaur which is in turn pretending to be a human on the internet. It is a bit character.
Too late, the mood’s ruined. At least you recognized what I was doing I guess.
Sorry I had to just deadpan describe what you were doing. Normally it would be a mood killer, and I would avoid doing that, but the mood in here is already rancid.
Yeah, it’s okay, it wasn’t your fault. I honestly should have checked the community before posting because I just showed up here from the all communities feed and thought I was in /c/196 or something. It’s why I made the original edit to my post. The, “you’d be okay with eating humans then, right?” is such a played-out meme anyway. There are a lot of reasons why eating humans is an extremely bad idea; anyone posing that question unironically probably isn’t going to have a sense of humor anyway.
I think they’re satirising carnists, who think that eating animals is okay because of biological supremacy but won’t admit it.
Eh, kinda. It more has to do with the fact that there are a lot of problems with eating human meat from a health and safety standpoint and it kinda blows my mind that people still use, “so it’s okay to eat humans then, right?” unironically. It’s a little bit of column A (making fun of carnists), a little bit of column B (making fun of the, “human meat” argument), and a little bit of a hidden column C (I like smol raptors and I firmly believe that they’d be on the same level as cats and dogs when it comes to pet popularity if they were still around). I was actually considering making a shitty drawing of a bunch of raptors at a computer or in a trench coat with a human mask or something, but the joke’s kinda ruined at this point.
humans are superior because we have tamed out environment to a degree that no other animal has been able to do. we are the top of the food chain and are in control.
We are controlled by our pets. We have laws that force us to take care of our pets and enforcement called the police to ensure these laws are followed and the best part is the entire species is so dumb it doesn’t realise it
not sure what point you are trying to make. I hope you aren’t implying that because we have laws preventing people from abusing their pets that somehow pets are at the top of the food chain
The point I’m trying to make is humans aren’t superior. I don’t genuinely believe pets are at the top of the food chain but I also don’t believe humans are superior. Superior has connotations of looking down on the rest to me that maybe it doesn’t have to you.
What’s wrong with humans taking over? How is it your place to decide how many humans we need? Why must we reduce the population? Who is we? And how do humans mess things up?
I’m extremely disappointed. I was playing a character but y’all seem to be completely unable to grasp this, so nevermind.
When you cover yourself in shit ironically you’re still covered in shit.
Check my original message. I’ve edited it to give you the very srs business answer you so desperately crave.
Sure, if everyone involved consents.
Do animals consent?
Do plants?
No, I’m not a vegan because I don’t know where the line for life I care about begins, but saying you don’t care at all what others kill to eat is clearly not true unless you’re just a pure egoist.
Am not an egoist, it’s just the nature of things. Food is food. Having guilt about eating some foods is fine, but you can’t change who you are and certainly can’t undo 100k+ years of evolution over night. Luckily we understand our bodies enough and food is bountiful so we can pick and chose to compensate for plant only diet, but not everyone has the same luxury nor desire to do so. If you kill to eat, that’s fine, that’s how world works.
If you are in a situation where you must live exclusively off the land then you probably aren’t the person vegans are addressing. If you’re any random human, and especially if you are any random Lemmy user that is probably not the case though. Vegan staples are not a luxury. I’ve gone weeks on end eating for less than 5 USD a day in areas where food was expensive many times when I was tight on money. Beans, lentils, rice, potatoes, and other dense plant foods are some of the cheapest foods available.
As for desire, that’s simple. Desire very rarely trumps more serious moral considerations. It’s never right to murder someone simply because I desire to do so, and personally I don’t desire murdering others. Saying that’s how the world works is even worse than the naturalistic fallacy. You’re essentially saying morality and conditions cannot improve, that the world is immutably (un)just. You’re also saying we can’t change who we are, do you just not believe in self improvement? This isn’t just a depressing outlook but it is just historically inaccurate. It’s clear to me that there are many times in history where conditions got better or worse for people, and often do to the choices of humans.
You can believe in whatever you want… the thing is reality doesn’t care. Not believing in gravity doesn’t make you float. Humans are omnivores and have been for a very very long time. The fact you can survive only on plant based diet doesn’t change that fact.
And just calling something fallacy doesn’t make it so either. You people are ready to preach how it’s not okay to murder something for your own gain but go on left and right using plastic, leather, fuel and all kinds of other materials derived from animals. It has nothing to do with luxury. If you don’t wish to eat something, don’t. But don’t go on preaching as if your choice is morally superior or better for the environment and similar, because guess what… it’s not.
Why are you even debating veganism when you don’t know what veganism is. Veganism isn’t a diet, and it includes avoiding all animal products whenever possible.
But you are posting legit historical and ethical fallacies. Your stance is the natural is the good and that the world is impermeable anyway so why bother, honestly I’m not sure why you’d have to make both of these arguments as either would suffice if they were valid to begin with. And they are more than fallacies, they are bad faith arguments as nobody seriously believes these things.
Am not even going to bother continuing this argument since you make assumptions I don’t know what am talking about while at the same time keep talking about fallacies. Enjoy living inside your own bubble.
Consciousness is a product of self-referential data gathering. Data that looks upon itself, that is sapience. Data that looks upon data, that is consciousness. Animals have this. Plants don’t.
Why should that be my line for life I care about though? How far is a chicken from a fish, from a worm? There is some line for animate life in which you can’t really argue any form of consciousness. And, again, my discriminator isn’t even necessarily consciousness.
Mine is suffering. A thing needs a neural network to suffer.
The issue with that is distinguishing how humans interpret suffering from “emulated” suffering. Like maybe a lobster has instinctual or chemical reactions to things, but does it actually interpret the suffering or just react to the nerves firing. We can’t really know entirely without communication. And even if we do communicate, what if it just mimicks human suffering like a deep learning NN could. ChatGPT cannot suffer, but it can convince some inexperienced people that it can.
But it is also entirely fair to say- even if we don’t entirely understand if a dog is actually suffering, it looks like it is and acts like it is, so I will just be cautious and assume it is to not cause undue harm.
I think suffering and pleasure are intimately tied to Skinner’s discovery of operant conditioning. Skinner discovered that living creatures increase their behaviour when it leads to a reward, and decrease their behaviour when it leads to a punishment. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Skinner’s identification of rewards and punishments aligns perfectly with our notions of what causes us pleasure and suffering. I think they’re the same thing. We have built artificial neurons and used a computer process to emulate operant conditioning in them. I think artificial neural networks must experience suffering and pleasure as we do. All of this is explained quite elegantly by property dualism - our qualia and thoughts are composed of information, instead of matter or energy, and information is a truly extant part of the universe. Suffering and pleasure are simply patterns of information structure. Neural networks have a design that creates these patterns as a matter of course.
If we were to look at the information structures in a rock, and if we could access them as readily as we access the information structures in our hand through our sensory neurons, we would see that a rock has experiences of its own. But it does not have a unified consciousness tying these experiences into a whole, and indeed the information in a rock is so fantastically simple that we could not recognise it instinctually as experience. To us it is just “being”. As creatures of great informational complexity, we regard only the most profound information structures as notable. But I believe these information structures which we place importance on - also known as emotions - exist in every living thing with a brain, and in creatures like jellyfish with their own unique neural networks.
If everyone involved consents, then human meat is vegan.
definition of vegan is:
So no, you are not correct.
Well alright. No need to be so snarky.
sorry. i do know what you were trying to say though.
Why is that concerning lmao??
“We have to find a new doctor, he started telling me that I have to start eating healthier. Very concerning and problematic behavior”
fat activists unironically hold that position
Like telling you to eat taco bell or McDonald’s just by driving down the street?
You’re told to do so many things you never even think about.
Not a vegan, but most vegans I’ve met seem healthy and keto is seriously bad for you, so I do not fit this meme.
Always reassuring when carnists come on here to justify themselves on a vegan community. Honestly wouldn’t be a vegan space without those comments
Right? They love coming over here to reassure themselves they’re not murderers.
It’s easier for them to shit on vegans than to admit to themselves that they are causing mass suffering
Anyone who eats meat is a murderer. I eat meat but only what’s hunted myself so I can be sure that animal wasn’t raised to die or all the other animal rights violations that come with the farming industry. I wouldn’t mind being hunted by a human or a bear aslong as I had a decent life and was able to experience things like freedom and they didn’t use any tools that I consider to be unfair like guns (knives and bows are okay but I prefer handmaking them on site) so the argument of “but what if u were the animal” doesn’t work for me because that’s how I got to this position.
I’m writing this mainly cause I’m curious abt your thoughts on my position. Do u think I’m as bad as farm industry users because I don’t mind eating meat, do u think I’m just a bit depressed and/or psychopathic because I wouldnt mind dying and killing or do u think my position is actually reasonable but its just not how u personally view the issue.
I think you’re still murdering an animal who wanted to live his life just as much as anyone.
Well I wouldn’t mind dying even by a human if it was in the same way I hunt. So r u telling me its fine? I’d very much doubt that’s what u mean from the (perceived) tone, but ur acc words are saying that cause I did mention before I don’t really mind dying like that yk it’s fair and I had a chance to survive it’s just natural selection at that point. I wouldn’t enjoy it for sure and def not in the moment but I wouldn’t care all that much either infact I’d probably prefer to be killed by an animal so that my body can be eaten and reused as fuel for plants and animals rather than wasted.
so you only hunt with your bare hands?
I know how to make and use a knife, stake and bow. Bows are a bit fuckey because u have to use intestine. Stakes are the easiest to make albeit they’re a bit difficult to use emotionally. I prefer knives and I try to make them as sharp as possible to minimise pain.
so how is that a fair fight? Why do you use technology rather than your natural powers?
Sounds like you are just like all the other animal abusers.
If some type of tool using primate used tools to murder me for food that would feel fair to me even if I didn’t have tools on hand. They would have an advantage in that situation however it was by better utilising using the same environment that I am in against me. I don’t consider that unfair even if they dont have the capabilities to use the environment in that way as I wouldn’t consider a bear smashing my head with a rock heavier than I could lift as unfair.
Edit: I just noticed that u likened me to animal abusers and wtf bro I know my opinions can come off as a bit psychopathic at first but I do genuinely care abt the suffering and try to minimise as much as possible. I have tried vegan protein alternatives but they don’t give you enough to be healthy or I would rather starve than eat them which is most likely caused by my sensory issues and autism which I can’t control
Also before your invalidate my sensory issues and autism by extension like everyone else has. I’ve starved myself for weeks before, the only food I’ve eaten in the past few weeks is bread sometimes with tomato so yk im not starving myself entirely now but I don’t get enough of some essential nutrients. I pass out whenever I stand up most likely because my diet is so restrictive. My nails are all brittle af most likely from a combination of nail biting and various deficiencies. I look like a stick even tho I work out because I’m just not eating well enough to reap those benefits from it and this effects my self image quite a bit althought its certainly not the main thing. Nutrients are what your body fuels itself on and I’ve been running on empty my whole life and not by my own fucking choice so don’t say it is when u very obviously haven’t experienced what it’s like
look after yourself bro
I can’t without killing animals It’s quite hard for me to do so tho because I want to make sure that I feel the full weight of that act so I usually just don’t eat meat which is pretty much essential in my case for decent protein intake
Edit: I have found a new potential solution. Grinding pumpkin seeds into powder and baking them into bread I’m actually feeling quite optimistic abt this one
have you tried seitan? 80% protein by weight.
I don’t like most meat textures and from the sounds of it that imitates meat. I do think the pumpkin seed is the best option as its incorporating it into a food I already eat hopefully without much change in its taste or texture. It also gives me a reason to grow yeast which may not seem like a positive to you however I love fungi so it is to me.
Look after yourself buddy!
If you ever need a proper chat let me know
I don’t treat them like property except for my dog ig but I also doubt I’d murder my dog because of the emotional bong the same way a bear wouldn’t murder its cub. I’m only okay with murdering them whenever they have a fair chance (e.g. no guns or other weapons you can’t make on site), they’re adults and they’re wild born and haven’t been held in captivity. I’d be okay with being murdered on those terms so I assume animals would be too
you are a bit ridiculous.
I’m a bit depressed yk haven’t lived the happiest life so maybe I don’t care abt death as much as other but I am genuinely okay with being murdered like that atleast I had a fair chance. I also think you should avoid it where possible but if u have sensory issues like I do and u haven’t found a food that works as a protein intake source then yea go for it. If someine came to me and I could tell they were emotionally distraught about how they can’t eat anything other than meat for a decent source of protein I’d be okay with them eating me and i wouldnt want to die solely for it but it would feel noble in a way so I’d prefer that death to a random one. I’d also be okay with a bear eating me for sustenance even tho I assume it doesnt feel bad abt it so I assume others would feel the same too including animals. Id prefer to eat human meat if there wasnt any health risks and it consented and was legal however its not. My position is solely based on “what would I want done to me?” It’s just my opinions of that are obviously very different from the average vegans. I don’t really eat meat often because I’m able to recognise the suffering that comes with it because of my practices around it.
God isn’t real and you don’t need meat. The only argument is whether or not you’re fine with murdering others for your taste pleasure. It’s a yes or a no, very simple.
That’s all you needed to say
I also have autism and have tried alot of vegan products. I’m not lying when I say I would starve if only given those to eat. Nuts do work for protein but I sorta binge eat them because they taste incredibly good and I think I developed a mild allergy so I don’t wanna eat them too often in case it gets worse
there is other food than nuts which contains a lot of protein: imgur.com/mbEAg2g
I don’t like most of the foods in the images. I have found another solution though, by grinding pumpkin seed and baking it into bread.
Sounds good 😊
That's the contradiction you have to live with as an omnivore. I'm not a hunter, I can't stand the thought of hurting another animal for any reason (human or otherwise). But, I refuse to give up chicken, pork, and beef consumption, I just love those things too much and I feel unhealthy when I DON'T have meat in my diet. So - brand me a murderer if you must. But at least I will go down as such with a full and happy belly.
You’re fine with hurting animals, you sound silly when you lie. Outsourcing the murder doesn’t absolve you of guilt.
And accusing people of murder for being carnivorous animals doesn't make you sound particularly intelligent. You sound not just silly but very self-righteous. You think plants don't have nervous systems or communities? Wake up, knucklehead - anyway you look at it, we humans are killing living things in order to feed ourselves. Get over yourself.
That’s a lot of words to not say anything.
Honestly hilarious, you people are scripted I swear.
@tygerprints @BonesOfTheMoon @neurospice @Dontfearthereaper123 @toomanypancakes Plants don't have nervous systems, we know that.
simply learn to cook. it’s one trick that carnists hate.
Slavery is worse than murder. In an ideal world we would end murder as well, but I consider it less horrible.
Imma preface this by saying I’m talking abt a very small section of the population.
I don’t think we could really get rid of meat eating entirely. I mean 100% all the people who do it because its the “best” source of protein or just because they prefer it over other things however there is actual medical conditions like arfid and autism that could cause people to have the only logical source of protein be meat. I myself am autistic and I try to avoid meat where I can because I wouldnt enjoy dying and know animals wouldnt however none of the other solutions ive tried could work long term hence why ive tried finding ways to minimise the harm. My diet is just overall very restrictive in the past few weeks ive basically just eaten various bread products sometimes plain sometimes with tomato. I’m not saying you are cause u honestly come off as quite civil but I’ve noticed a tendency for online vegans to get quite aggressive over the issue which feels (this is a very strong word but I can’t think of a better one) almost ableistic to me as if some autistic people could never be morally correct. If u listened to the end of my wee rant, thank you.
I have autism and arfid. And I fundamentally do not believe in the premise that there exists any disability that forces you to harm or kill others. Except for vampirism. But we all know that Dracula deserves to die for being a bloodsucking rapey murderer, regardless of whether he has a choice. If I believed a disability could force someone to be evil, then I would be forced to believe in treating those people like Dracula. Thankfully, I reject the premise, and believe that powerful technologies of the physical and mental can overcome anything.
Well fundamentally sure I agree but realistically nah. I can’t really spend all day just researching and trying new foods for time and financial reasons. If I could I would but the only logical option I’ve found so far is meat. I haven’t eaten it in months and I almost definitely do need protein but it is hard for me to kill animals so I do try and avoid it but its stopping me from eating healthy. I’d genuinely rather just not get enough protein and expeirence protein deficiency than eat the vegan alternatives for it because all the ones I’ve tried r that bad to me.
Are potatoes and ramen not safe foods for you? I love them. Also, I recently tried Tofu out, and it is the blandest thing I have tasted in my life, which means it’s perfect. I just slap on whatever sauces and spices I want, and the texture is so so inoffensive.
The recommended amount of protein per meal is 15-30g. Potatoes have 3.1 grams of protein per serving. Ramen has 8 grams per serving so its better however every source I find even vegans ones warn against using solely ramen noodles for protein. The vegan ones say to add things ik i dont like including tofu which was too chewy. I don’t eat most meats becsuse of the chewiness too.
Pumpkin seeds
I don’t like the texture although I could see it working if I blended them, sieved it to get powder and then baked it into bread. The only potential issue I see there is if it makes the bread powdery but I doubt it would considering bread includes alot of powder already so I’ll try that.
Addiction is a form of slavery - people who sell drugs are selling others into the slavery of addiction and dependency. I only mention that because there are many types of slavery that people tend to overlook.
I just want to chime in and say it is interesting to find a hunter in every vegan thread like this, even though i have not met one irl (i guess because i live in a huge ass city).
I live in the countryside of a sparsely populated but very small country. I would imagine location is a fairly big factor
also it’s totally not scalable to our large populations. we need to find solutions that are good for the environment and also can be applied to everyone.
(yes, a very small minority of people can only eat meat)
Yes you’re still bad because you could literally just eat beans but you go out and intentionally murder animals instead.
I have autism I couldn’t eat beans
Edit: I’ve starved myself for weeks before on things like school trips simply because there wasn’t any food I could eat so when I say couldn’t I’m not exaggerating
Edit 2: I tried eating nuts for protein because I don’t eat enough but I think I developed some form of allergy because I binge ate them because I liked them so much. I’ve tried other solutions just a heads up
What?
I have sensory issues. Autism is a sensory disability which can cause sensory overload from things like bright lights, loud sounds or even certain textures like baked beans. I literally cannot live a normal life and just do things like eat baked beans in the same way a depressed person can’t just be happy
The only foods I’ve eaten in the past few weeks is bread sometimes I have it with tomato. I am an extremely picky eater and not by choice
Edit: I’m actually curious abt this because I struggle to believe someone doesn’t know what autism is especially on lemmy but would u rather me starve because of a condition that I have no control over?
I know what autism is and I of course don’t want you to starve, I just had no idea what you meant when you said that you couldn’t eat beans because of it.
FWIW I don’t like eating baked beans by themselves, either. Are you okay with beans as an ingredient, like in soup, chili, or burritos?
I don’t like soup or chilli, I haven’t tried burritos. I’d imagine I’d like just the bread bit and with tomatoes but the more ingredients added the less likely I’d be able to eat it. Tbh I don’t like complex foods in general they “confuse” my taste buds if that makes sense. Adding food to mask the flavours and textures of another food is more likely to make me associate the liked food with the disliked food and begin disliking the previously liked one rather than make it tolerable
It’s fine to eat meat you hunted in the wild. If you have the guts to do it, go for it. It’s not fine to have animals rise in awful conditions and then have someone else commit the murder and processing of the dead body, which directly ruins their mental health. You should consider different means of killing though, as I sincerely doubt old type of weapons are good for quick dispatching of an animal, and choosing means which cause unncesessary suffering is wrong.
I also support indigenous communities who farm animals in places they’re native to where normal farming isn’t possible, so they depend on animal protein.
But regular humans living in convinient locations who buy meat from other people? Hell no.
Yea this is basically my current position on meat eating. In the most likely far future I’d probably rather animal farming everywhere to be banned however ud need to ensure the people who depend on it can still eat which could be hard to do in the present for various reasons. Same with hunting I’d prolly rather that be banned and have specialised dieticians for people with sensory issues who would be able to dedicate time to finding a food that works for people rather than the other person having to interrupt their life for it.
I have ADHD which causes me to have sensory issues as well. When I was a child I could only eat highly processed meat. I went vegan at 17, I’m 25 now. There’s still things I literally cannot eat, i.e. oranges, even though I love orange juice, but the orange texture completely closes off my throat and causes me immense anxiety, which neurotypical people will never understand. I hope for you to be able to find another food you can deal with. I was never into meat, because the taste and unprocessed texture also cause same reaction like oranges in me, but the lingering taste also makes me want to puke, so not eating meat is very easy to me. I have similar response to other animal products, where the taste and/or texture, especially the lingering taste, cause extreme disgust in me. I cannot eat some products mimicking them because of this. What “helped me” personally was becoming so poor I was only eating pasta with tomato sauce, which I’d put through a thin-eyed sieve to make it smoother. I still sometimes get overwhelmed by textures of leafy things which cannot be properly broken apart, but that’s why I try to juggle what I eat. I cannot do meal prep where I’d eat the same thing every day, least I get sensory overload. I’m sorry for what you’re going through and for insensitive neurotypical people mocking you for what they didn’t experience and cannot muster sympathy for.
The problem is regardless of how or when you take an animal’s life you’re still taking an animal’s life. You clearly view them as less than human instead of viewing them as having the same right to life as anyone/anything else.
You can and do choose to eat meat when it isn’t required to sustain you.
I wouldn’t mind dying under those circumstances. I’m treating the animal as I’d want to be treated myself. How am I viewing them as sub-human? I personally wouldn’t kill even a consenting human because of laws but I’d rather eat consenting human meat assuming it was safe ans ethically sourced (e.g. not a company that gets you to sign a misleading agreement).
Edit: Infact when I die I want to be thrown in a forest and eaten by animals and absorbed by the ground though I imagine there’s laws preventing this
You wouldn’t kill a human because of laws? This implies you would kill humans if it weren’t illegal…
I didn’t think autism is your real problem… You might be a sociopath.
If they consented, sure. I wouldn’t care abt someone killing me if I consented to the act and method and they didn’t like manipulate into consenting.
Edit: I’d include depressed people as predatory like the way child sex is
Edit 2: I’d also feel emotions for sure but morally it’s better than killing animals because Idk whether the animal consented so I’d push through it because its the better option even if it is harder
Man, listen… I mean what I’m about to say… You need to talk to a professional.
I already have. Any other suggestions?
Do u normally armchair diagnose people because I’m curious abt whether you’ve thought abt the harmful effects of telling people “you don’t have X, in reality you have Y” although I guess I wouldn’t care abt harming people becsuse I’m a sociopath
Well any concern I had for you and those around you is gone now.
So do u just not care abt the harmful effects saying things like that can have? Now these examples didnt happen because I know I’m autistic and not a sociopath theyre also quite extreme but theyre still possible and theyre more likely for people with mental illness which u requested i get checked for.
Say I had taken your message to heart because I didn’t want to accept myself as autistic because of the social stigma around it and decided to stop getting any support at all because it meant I had to accept I was autistic. Would u feel okay abt that?
Say I had taken your message to heart and I really started believing I was a sociopath and went around to different doctors begging them for a sociopath diagnosis until they either give me one or I die. Would u feel okay abt that? Because you just implied you would be
You expect me to feel bad for saying something to you about a worry I have about how you view life while also having posted that you have no issues with legal murder and killing animals? Hmm… maybe you’ve had enough Internet for today.
Yea I have had enough Internet today but I dont have any friends in real life and doing activities doesn’t really take my mind of the loneliness so here I am talking to strangers. Therapy hasn’t helped with this because they can’t magically make friends appear and according to them it’s not anything I’m doing so yea idk I’m not expecting u to feel bad ig I just want someone to talk to but I dont expect u to do that either I honestly dk why I’m typing this cause I don’t expect u to reply after and if u do i doubt it’ll be trying to help me. Anyway bye
Alright look… I’m sorry our discussion got heated. I’m sure you’re doing the best you can just like me. Let’s agree to disagree about the meat stuff and I’m sorry for insinuating you might be a sociopath. That was wrong of me to say. I hope things get better for you.
that’s how I feel about pro choice communities. a lot of mumbling that just serves to justify their murderous tendencies. except murdering a baby is worse than murdering an animal.
It front paged. Nobody “came here” to defend themselves.
You can literally just read the comments from people who eat meat and see that they are more insufferable than vegans right here in this very thread
To be fair, meat eaters who come into a vegan community to be whiny little dicks because their masculinity is threatened don’t represent the majority of normal people.
Scrolling down half i the comments has give me a true headache. Why do you guys feel the need to explain your consumption to vegans? Not like we have not heard your “arguments” a thousand times before.
Oh wait, you arent trying to justify your actions to us but to yourself?
C) Arguing on the internet is fun?
E) All of the above
Man the chuds in this thread really proving the OP right
proving op right about what?
My god, your post history is fucking tragic. I’m not going to engage with you, you sad sorry little man all im going do is block you. So take your weird right wing troll bullshit to twitter or truth social or even reddit. Because just like every other aspect of your life, the people here don’t want you around because you gleefully make everything worse for everyone else.
Damn you are upset. Sorry you feel that way. I’m really not the bad guy you have imagined me to be.
wait, I can eat bacon for every meal and that would be considered a “diet”?
Diet isn’t for weight loss by definition. The definition is “a special course of food to which a person restricts themselves”/“the kinds of food that a person, animal, or community habitually eats”. You can go on a diet with intent of weight-loss, but it’s not inherent to a diet itself.
For example, some bodybuilders go on a diet that includes cycles of bulking to gain mass and cutting to reduce body fat to get the ‘shredded’ look.
Others go on detox diets to enhance the functioning of their lymph systems, kidneys, and liver.
Actually the definition of diet is: “The set of things you eat and drink”
Yes and no. Keto and other low carb diets encourage you to eat bacon, but do be aware that you need to keep watching your salt intake as well as the type of fats used to prepare the bacon. Aditionally, this would also mean you do not get to eat most breads and pasta for instance. So yes to lots of bacon but no to lots of other good eats so that’s why these diets are for those that need them due to e.g. pre-diabetis 2 or other health scares/risks.
Bacon’s really not a healthy food however you swing it, unfortunately. Salt, nitrites, saturated fat, processed red meat, it’s definitely one to enjoy in moderation rather than every day.
Bacon is cur3d and smoked pork belly. Pork belly, fresh, allows you to season it as you will, and it’s keto and delicious
I don’t care what keto folks say, it’s not a healthy diet. You might lose weight but all that shit is going to damage your heart. Keto is a very specific diet that should be used under very specific circumstances but it’s blown up recently because bacon…
There are more diets than keto that are low carb and/or use bacon and there’s lots of people that use them for health reasons. The fact that some douches flaunt keto or other flavour of the season diets on social media does not mean there’s not many people following similar diets, supported by real dietists and/or doctors for valid reason with great success to their health.
That’s great for them! But as I said, unless you have specific circumstances that require a keto or similar diet don’t do it lol. There seems to be a lot of people putting themselves on it even though it was created for a very specific issue and was very rare to be on. People saw it has high fat foods and want to be on it even though other diets that are much more heart healthy would work for them.
You know what damages your heart more than keto? Being fat.
Okay? Lmao I didn’t say being fat was healthy, I said keto is generally an unhealthy diet. Quick Google search tells you it’s one of the hardest on your cardio health. Unless recommended by your nutritionist, don’t do keto. For the majority of people exorcise and portion control work wonders.
Kind of. I went on keto over the past 6 months and lost 60 lbs. I ate bacon almost every day. Keto is about maintaining ketosis by keeping carbs to a minimum (no fruit, no starches like rice and potatoes, no sugars, no bread, etc). You can eat as much no-carb food as you want. You lose a lot of weight.
Fruit isn’t completely off the table. You just stick to low-carb fruit like berries. Apples and a few other fruits are ok in moderation as well.
Keto includes vegetables, mushrooms, and tons of other food beyond just meat. All Keto is is cutting carbs.
Essentially, stop eating grasses because you don’t have the digestive equipment large herbivores need to do so. Corn, rice, wheat, etc. Also cutting out sugar. I haven’t seen a single diet recommend eating sugar in my life, but maybe some bulking diets do?
It’s possible to be both vegan and keto. Incredibly expensive and difficult, but they aren’t mutually exclusive.
Cows chew their cud because they’re eating grass leaves.
We don’t eat wheat, corn and rice stems. We eat prepared seeds, from grasses bred to have bigger seeds. Those are way easier to digest.
So how many supplements are you taking? 😆
Meanwhile in alpha gal allergy land (allergy to mammal, the only known sugar allergy and the only known “slow onset” allergy, now the third most common food allergy in the USA thanks to Lone Star ticks and climate change), I’m happy that non-dairy cheese has come lightyears in the past decade, but wish I could easily find chicken and turkey sausage that doesn’t use beef casing. Miyoko Brand cashew cheese is amazing but SO expensive.
Vegans should see alpha gal allergy folks as their allies, I think. Margaret Atwood, in her MaddAdam trilogy, imagined that alpha gal allergy was spread by ecoterrorists looking to reduce global meat consumption. While that is fiction, I sometimes think everyone should get the allergy. Basically ALL mammal consumption would cease. You’d still have sheep, alpacas, etc. for fiber production, but it would be a global food revolution unparalleled in human history, exceeding even the agricultural revolution from producing fertilizer from atmospheric nitrogen.
We’ve finally created non-animal based dairy. They used some bacteria to create cow’s milk.
Does it produce alpha gal as part of the milk? Even alpha gal levels that are too low to cause anaphylaxis are thought to cause an inflammatory response that dramatically increases the risk of stroke from the creation of unstable arterial plaque. [EDIT: hey downvoter that has targeted my account, did you know that I could start my own instance and determine what user you are, so I can report you? Think about that before you continue to downvote everything I ever posted or commented on lemmy, okay? This isn’t reddit, and you aren’t fully anonymous.]
No clue on alpha gal. Never heard of it before
Look it up when you have a second, it’s fascinating, and it is only going to be more of an issue as the range of the Lone Star tick spreads. In the South (US) even budget grocery stores in bumfrick nowhere are starting to carry a fair selection of vegan cheese and some other vegan products, because of the allergy. A few years ago you might be able to get some rubbery soy imitation processed American Cheese, while now you can get much better stuff at a Food Lion. And it’s not because there’s suddenly vegans everywhere in rural America - it’s because people got the alpha gal allergy.
So you’re telling us you’re vegan.
Typical.
I'm being facetious. I'm sure as hell not a vegan, I eat steak or chicken every night. And I love to eat meat off the bone feel the flesh and veins wiggling back into my throat. People - you all need to grow a sense of humor and learn to tolerate other points of view.
Same about how I eat meat lmao
One of the diets require killing, the other one doesn’t. Be the better person and choose the latter.
Wrong. They both require killing.
Only one demands awareness of it though
All those immoral lions relying on killing for their food. Just unnatural and immoral. If humans were meant to eat meat, we’d have teeth specifically adapted for it and digestive systems designed for omnivorous diets. Oh wait…
Oh yes, we borrow our moral from lions so eating one’s own children is equally alright then.
You’ll have to take that one up with Jonathan Swift. He makes some pretty convincing (obviously satirical) arguments.
Obviously it’s not 1:1 and there are plenty of carnivorous/omnivorous animals you might find less objectionable, but the point is that there has to be some acceptance of nuance on both sides or neither can ever be “right.” The claim that veganism can’t be healthy is obviously BS, but so is the claim that there’s nothing at all that can make meat eating acceptable.
Tbh though, I was scrolling “all” and didn’t notice this was posted to the vegan community. I wouldn’t have interjected just to say this if so, cuz I think going out of your way to be combative on any side of an argument tends to be counterproductive and more about oneself than the actual issue. So my apologies for that, but I stand by the point that there are ethical ways to eat meat that both omnivores and vegans would benefit from recognizing. If its a black and white issue, factory farming is no worse than raising your own livestock sustainably or hunting invasive species for meat. Rather than push people towards better habits, the all or nothing murder argument encourages an acceptance of the status quo by saying “meat is meat and it’s all equally murderous according to vegans, so I might as well go for the cheapest stuff that is easiest to find if I am going to continue eating it.” In any case, this isn’t the place for a two-sided debate as a community by and for only one side of that debate. Zero judgment there, just didn’t mean to start one in that context.
If lions were able to eat predominantly plants and fruits they would do so because it’s easier and requires less energy.
Since we’re the product of evolution we’re not meant to do anything. Evolution is reactive to changing environments. In terms of what our physiology is most suitable for is predominantly hunting and gathering, with a bit of meat from hunting occasionally.
The fact that we have some sharp teeth and can digest meat doesn’t mean that we have to consume the enormous amount of meat that we’re currently eating. The health department of pretty much every Western Country says that its population eats unhealthy amounts of meat.
it’s wild youre down voted in vegan community
Because this loser mentality of “it needs killing”. Yeah it’s called the circle of life. I guess we morally shame owls for hunting the mice that hunted the insects. If you want to make a statement on factory farms and torturous methodology, that’s one thing. But death is a part of life, and having meaning in death to provide nutrition for continuation of life is just a reality.
The only morally correct metabolism is photosynthesis
If only photons could talk. Imagine the harm they experience.
shit man, guess treating disease is a mistake. Those bacteria need to grow in us after all. Sepsis is the cycle of liiiiiiife.
You’re missing something pretty important here. Death is part of life is an argument that you’d use to try and justify hunting. Farming also means breeding more animals that will be raised for their meat and killed after a few years.
Globally, 60% of all large mammals are livestock. It’s a crazy number and there is nothing natural about this. The killing isn’t the root problem, producing/breeding huge numbers of animals is.
Death might be a natural part of the circle of life, but we’re artificially starting this circle for many farm animals. If we’d stop doing this at such an insane scale, we wouldn’t need to discuss their death (or quality of life)
Importantly, this is something that we choose to do even though we don’t have to. The owl has to hunt for mice and isn’t able to choose not to. This makes our moral position not comparable to owls or any other animal.
That’s the omnis with bad conscience, not the community members.
This makes it easy to argument against and if arguments start, information is lost. Someone could say crop death, eating more vegan food than absolutely necessary to survive.
Vegan candy, tasty but all the crop death. I’d recommend simple arguments like, I love animals and only want to hurt them as little as reasonably possible.
It’s not as flashy as “the least amount of harm possible” I know, but it’s at least the Truth. I think the difference between a vegan and others is only the level of harm they’re willing to cause. But then again it was always like that. You’re just lower than others in that animal-harm spectrum and not the absolute bottom. But still a lot lower.
“I’m not vegetarian because I love animals. I’m vegetarian because FUCK Plants.”
-one of my vegetarian friends
Those damn plants would eat us, and poop their pollen all over us we didn't eat them first!
But let’s also be reasonable.
Eating cats and dogs is controversial. So is eating sharks or whale. Some diets are unnecessarily harmful. Since we all live on the same planet, that affects others and it makes sense to have an opinion on this.
Outside of the US, it’s not controversial to say the average meat intake in the US is too high: for health reasons and for the environment. I think it’s okay to judge people when they eat abnormal amounts of meat.
Are you saying I can eat people now?
Try some Soylent Green, it’s not people this time!
Well they watch, and allow “Dr.” Oz to shape their beliefs. That by itself is a sign of mental challenges.
I’d go one step further and say, ‘I know they’re retarded’.
Best video to debunk that turd comes from Dr Mike Israetel from Renaissance Periodization;
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iXaN-3NH0E
Yep, that’s how much we hate the implicit moral superiority of vegans.
Fuck off.
ok
I have literally stopped talking to a sibling becauase they think it is funny to make jokes about my veganism, or ask if I am still vegan (for life), or if I miss the taste of meat (no, I find the smell nauseating).
It is a lack of respect for life choices, made more loathesome because my choice is made on an ethical foundation, not a whim.
Honestly, that is just one reason. They are a jerk and a bully, like everyone else who comes on here feeling the need to dismiss veganism or claim feeling attacked by it.
Just like other kinds of prejudice, these negative reactions betray a profound level of ignorance that go beyond infuriating to pitiful.
They all think it’s so hilarious. Because they know they’re doing the wrong thing.
I’m no nutritionist, but I’m reasonably sure that any reasonable diet, whether keto or vegan can be accomplished while maintaining proper nourishment.
The thing is, most people’s diet isn’t even providing full nourishment. There’s usually something that’s missing that people are simply not aware is missing, or they’re getting in such low quantities that it’s unhealthy. IMO, the main problem is a lack of education on the matter. I was taught the food pyramid in grade school. It’s barely relevant, and it was literally the only diet and nourishment education I recieved from my first world primary/highschool education. Unless you are going into health science or nutritionist type college credits, nobody takes the time to learn anything further about it later on. They just eat, and don’t really think about it. I certainly didn’t for a very long time.
Additionally, when I learned about the food pyramid, the examples didn’t really make a lot of sense to me, since at the time I had barely touched any food preparation tasks, nor dealt with food that wasn’t ready to eat already (usually prepared by my parents), and I had no context for what a “grain” really was, or why bread was considered a “grain” in the pyramid. I was stupid. In many ways, I still am. Yet, later in life, I don’t know of anyone who is running their meal plan through a professional nutritionist before making the food. I don’t know of anyone who, even if they have a meal plan, even knows a nutritionist who can consult on whether the good that they eat will provide the nutrition that they actually need.
The general population seems to put most of their trust in food makers, the corporations that make ready to eat food, to have accounted for their nutritional needs. Places like fast food restaurants, normal restaurants and those that make recipes, and most of their interest is in making food you’ll enjoy, more than food that will actually provide the nutrition you need.
On top of that, even most doctors won’t, by default, order tests to ensure all of your nutritional needs are met, and unless you have a symptom resulting in a significant deficiency of something, you would never know if you’re behind or not getting enough of something. I can hear the comments now, “but if they’re not being affected, why does it matter?” … The thing is, they are being affected, just not significantly enough for them to be able to draw a correlation or even really complain about it.
So at the end of the day, we’re probably all malnourished in some way, or at least, there’s a nontrivial amount of people who are unaware that they’re malnourished, which isn’t being caught, and nobody has the knowledge or understanding to know it’s even happening. The education on nourishment is so lackluster that is easily forgotten by most and instead we learn about factorials and trigonometry which most people never use past highschool.
I’m summary, more people than you would expect are likely unaware that they’re malnourished, and the education system would rather teach you maths you’ll never use than ensure you can feed yourself properly. The whole thing is fucked, and it’s ironic when people lecture or question anyone about their nourishment needs, given how little any average person has been taught about proper nourishment. Everything is fucked and everybody sucks.
Been meaning to figure out a meal plan for balanced nutritious diet. Ideally something with at least a couple week’s worth of variety so I’m not getting too sick of anything. Do you have any recommendations for going about that? Any websites or services to assist those efforts?
Certainly don’t mind leftovers either, and I imagine I just need to make more grocery runs for fresh produce than I’m doing currently. It would be lovely to establish a bit of a routine that I can stick to easily to help avoiding take out and junk food.
No sweat, no pressure, but would happily welcome your insights!
Yeah check out cronometer.com . It’s fantastic for this.
I’m sorry, I don’t have all this figured out for myself. I know I’m missing things in my diet and I did some preliminary analysis with the help of my GP and a testing lab, and I think I have a handle on the broad strokes for myself, and where I need to improve.
I’m technical, so for me the process is simply to identify the issue, and ratify the issue as best as I’m able. I’ve started the first part of this, I have yet to do the follow through. Unfortunately, I find myself in a bit of a difficult personal position and can’t really afford to make any significant changes to my life at the moment. My long term plan is to grow a garden. I’m finally in a physical situation where that’s viable (I recently moved out of an apartment, where it was very difficult to grow a garden at best, into a home with enough space to have a dedicated area for gardening outside). I want to eat as much of my own produce as I can, which will provide more fruits and vegetables than I would normally have access to, which will hopefully be good over a longer period of time. That’s just to start. Better, cheaper, produce that’s more easily accessed and readily available, to encourage myself to eat more leafy greens and such.
I know a garden big enough to continually do that (at least through the good seasons for growing), is a significant challenge, since it can occupy a lot of room that can’t really be used for anything else. There’s also nontrivial investments to be made into things like fertilizer, mulch, soil, tools, seeds, and so much more. And this is just step one for me.
I’m not in a financial position to go for it yet, and growing season is over for this year, but I’m going to save up and hopefully I can start next year.
The only reason I’m talking your ear off about it is that growing your own fruits and veggies is pretty much always a good option. Commercial growers tend to prioritize the size of the produce over everything else, so they can be paid more for what they grow. A good looking, large apple (as an example) sells better and for more money than a smaller, oddly shaped apple, even if the latter is much more nutrient-dense than the former. If you grow your own with even a modicum of research into which variety is best to grow for yourself, you’re going to have better food to eat that costs less, all for a small amount of effort.
Apples are a bit tough, even if you’re in a house, apples grow on trees and usually don’t produce any fruit until they’re a fair size; so that’s probably a bad example, but the underlying point still stands. It’s a good starting point, and, while difficult to do in an apartment, it’s not impossible with a hydroponic type system. A small “grow” tent, with a rack and some deep plastic pans for the soil, plus some grow lights and you’re good to make a small garden; but even dedicating only a few square feet to it may be a pretty significant ask depending on where you live specifically.
IDK, that’s the only real thing I can contribute right now. I’m sure other commenters will have suggestions, and I’m certain there’s plenty of info on the internet, just be weary of random search results, as much good information as there is online, there’s also a lot of bad info trying to sell you something.
All the best.
This makes me really appreciate my doctor. I emailed her and let her know I’ve been eating a vegetarian diet for the past two years and wanted to see if there were any gaps in my nutritional intake. She happily ordered a nutritional panel for me right away.
Oh, they’ll order it for you when you ask, but I don’t know of any test that doctors run without being promoted that will examine the nutritional state of a person. Once you ask for it, then you’ll very likely get what you ask for, but the doctor isn’t going to go out of their way to order it without being asked first.
So if you don’t think about it, or it’s just not something that you’re looking into, then your doctor doesn’t bother unless you report a complaint or symptom that may be related to some kind of malnourishment.
I get it, I don’t blame doctors, assume it’s fine unless there’s a problem… Nobody wants to waste lab time on tests when everything appears fine and there’s no complaints. But it’s kind of a disservice to the health of the general public. There’s a number of symptoms that go unreported simply because people have experienced them for so long and/or they’re so mild that they can’t be bothered… Some people just think it’s normal to have that symptom, just a part of every day life, when it’s not and it can take years or more before it’s discovered. By that time, permanent damage may have already occurred.
I would still blame the education system for the primary issue, since there’s so much we learn from primary/secondary education that we never use, and so many things we need to know every day, which isn’t even mentioned in schools.
I don’t have a vendetta against the school system, I just think they’re teaching the wrong things for everyone to know. There’s a lot of things that are taught that are only useful to a handful of professions, meanwhile being able to balance your chequebook, or vote, or feed yourself in a way that will maintain your health and nutrition are often not even offered and if they are, they’re electives. But no, you need to be able to calculate the hypotenuse of a right angle triangle. Everyone needs algebra, despite the fact that not all jobs need any understanding of it. You have to read and understand the complete works of Shakespeare, and a handful of dusty old books and form a literary analysis of them because reasons… But doing your own damn taxes? Get gud noob.
Its quite weird to see people go on Keto benders and then bang on about the environment (as they do here). It literally one of the worst diets for the environment as it relies on intensive farming. It is also not a balanced diet. Any idea where it came from?
It came from studies of epileptic children. They altered their diet to try and control the fits. That is where Keto comes from. Others noticed that certain kids on this diet didnt put any weight on as they became adults so experimented with it themselves. Several studies have linked Keto to cardiovascular and hypertension problems. As well as some issues with bowel health.
There have been no such disadvantages to true veganism recorded (as long as they get the balance right).
By “here” I mean my home town. Not Lemmy. God you lot are a miserable lot. I’m starting to see why the other instances slag you off. 🙄
They wean children off the keto diet for epilepsy when they get older too. It’s not considered safe in adults and it’s not encouraged.
I’ve done both vegan and keto for over a year at some point during my life and what I will say is that I naturally cover my nutrition bases through preferences and desires, while vegan though I had to hunt down (forgive the pun) b12 and complete proteins combinations a little more diligently to cover my nutrition needs.
Or put differently, I think it’s easier to mess up a vegan diet than a keto one.
People often worry more about vegan diets than other diets. But somehow people’s concerns aren’t proportional to the risk of messing up your nutrition needs.
It’s not about health risks; it’s more about their personal feelings. Most people don’t like that animals are killed for food, but giving up tasty meat and cheese is tough. Instead of supporting vegans, they question them. This might be because admitting they eat meat just for its taste feels wrong. So, they deflect by questioning veganism. It’d be great if there were more understanding and supportive and less defensiveness about food choices.
I’d be nice to occasionally hear “Good for you! I’m happy that you make choices that are in line with your values!” But alas, most responses tend to be “But aren’t you barely allowed to eat anything now!?”
So much time and effort online and on TV is expended arguing against eating plant based food. It’s hard not to see through this.
Vegans should honestly just take a B12 pill. B12 is naturally produced by bacteria, but most good natural sources amount to using an animal gut as a fermenter. Pills just cut out the middleman and use an industrial fermenter rather than one that moos.
You could eat dirt or drink unclean water instead, but the pills are cheap, easy and natural.
Protein combining is an old myth. You don’t need to eat a complete protein at each meal. It’s fine if they average out to be complete over the course of a day or two, which is quite easy. If you have a sandwich for lunch and lentil soup over cauliflower rice for dinner you’ve eaten a complete protein.
What does complete protein mean? It’s the first time I hear about it.
Protein is made up of amino acids.
9 of them are “essential” because your body can’t make them from other amino acids.
Protein is complete when it has enough of all of the essential amino acids. It’s incomplete when it’s missing at least one of them.
Rice, for example, doesn’t quite have enough lysine in it. If you live on only rice, you’ll eventually run into a lysine deficiency. Chickpeas, though, have plenty of lysine but not enough methionine.
Rice and chickpeas individually are incomplete. A bowl of chickpeas and rice is complete, though.
The problem with this, like I said, is that if you have cucumber sushi for lunch and falafel dipped in hummus for dinner it’ll average out to be complete. Almost no one has to actually care about this, it’s really just an interesting factoid.
I remember now that you say it, that the body cannot create all proteins we need. Makes sense to call it “complete” when your diet includes all the amino acids that you need.
Thanks for explaining.
It’s so hard to go to a doctor once a year to get checked and just take b12 /s
and yes, everyone -not just vegans- should see the doctor once a year.
it’s defensiveness. a person who eats 19 strips of bacon for every meal doesn’t threaten the average omnivore. that person is arguing that they should do more of what they want to do anyway. the existence of a happy, healthy vegan, OTOH, threatens omnivores. it tells them that there is a choice other than meat, and what that does is force them to acknowledge that eating meat is a choice and that if you make that choice you’re responsible for the consequences. if you live in a world where meat is necessary, let’s call it the ferret diet because they’re my favorite obligate carnivores, then you didn’t really have a choice at all. as factory farming imposes cruelty on animals at the individual level and huge damage to the environment and climate on a collective level, the ferret diet allows you to say “🤷🤷 what are you gonna do?” veganism is an attempt to answer that question, and it’s a valid one. there are plenty of people who don’t eat any sort of animal product and are still happy and healthy. veganism threatens them because it makes the suffering they create a choice that they’ve made, rather than an inevitable consequence of being an obligate omnivore. bitching at vegans, trying to poke holes in vegan diets, all it is is an attempt to shed responsibility for your own life choices by pretending there never was a choice.
FYI: obligate omnivore isn’t a thing. There are obligate carnivores, facultative carnivores, omnivores, and several others but not that one.
Thanks. I had invented the phrase to make a point, that it literally isn’t a thing but some people will insist that humans are that way anyway.
Yep. Homo sapiens are omnivores incredibly versatile ones thanks to our ability to process food outside our bodies. (cooking, grinding, etc.) And due to our intelligence we are totally able to survive on a vegan diet. Even if vegan diets are not optimal for the individual they are looking optimal for the species as a whole.
I had a friend at work years back who said she was vegetarian. She was really vegan, but at the time the term wasn’t as well known. She didn’t do it for some moral reason, it was because she was very heavy. After a few years she had lost a couple hundred pounds, and looked so different that thry had to take a new pic for her ID badge. She was healthy, and absolutely not “malnourished”.
Please don’t post images of text. Blind folks can’t read it