from owlinsight@lemm.ee to selfhosted@lemmy.world on 17 Jan 13:22
https://lemm.ee/post/52848033
For this new year, I’d like to learn the skills necessary to self host. Specifically, I would like to eventually be able to self host Nextcloud, Jellyfin and possibly my email server too.
I’ve have a basic level understanding of Python and Kotlin. Now I’m in the process of learning Linux through a virtual machine because I know Linux is better suited for self hosting.
Should I stick with Python? Or is JavaScript (or maybe Ruby) better suited for that purpose? I’m more than happy to learn a new language, but I’m unsure on which is better suited.
And if you could start again in your self hosting journey, what would you do differently? :)
EDIT: I wasn’t expecting all these wonderful replies. You’re all very kind people to share so much with me :)
The consensus seems to be that hosting your own email server might be a lot, so I might leave that as future project. But for Nextcloud and Jellyfin I saw a lot of great tips! I forgot to mention that ideally I would like to have Nextcloud available for multiple users (ie. family memebers) so indeed learning some basic networking/firewalling seems the bare minimum.
I also promise that I will carefully read the manuals!
#selfhosted
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Docker really. If something goes bad, trash the container and start again without loosing your actual data.
Mostly Docker.
Portainer and plugging Docker Compose XML into Portainer stacks makes Docker stupid-simple. (personally speaking as a stupid person that does this)
Cloudflare tunnels for stuff people other than you might want to access.
Tailscale if it’s only you.
Reverse proxy & port forwarding for sharing media over Jellyfin without violating the Cloudflare Tunnel ToS.
Dokploy is a pretty easy web gui and is itself a docker container.
Makes it dead simple to manage multiple containers and domains. (Not for power users that need kubernetes level flexibility)
No special knowledge needed except the very basic ability to understand and run commands from documentation.
It really depends. I actually needed to learn a bit about networking to be able to host multiple things on nginx on the same port. Internally they run on different ports, but they can get routed by the host name
Networking isn’t specific to Linux. It’s just networking. Nginx configs work the same on every OS.
Until you run into some kind of problem :D
Setting up jellyfin, I used docker on debian, and an old Quadro card. What could possibly go wrong?
Turns out that week the Nvidia drivers got a faulty update pushed to debian stable and caused an error with getting the GPU to work in any container. I could either wait a week or pull the simple fix from testing. So impatiently I pulled it from testing.
Why didn’t you do a rollback?
Persistence and reading comprehension.
There’s no need to learn Python or any programming language to self host stuff, you just need to be able to follow blog posts and run some Docker commands.
I’m a software dev and haven’t touched a single line of code on my NAS. Everything is docker compose and other config files.
You don’t really need to know a specific language to self-host anything. But things like YAML, JSON, Docker, and some networking basic will go a long way.
If I could do anything different though, it would definitely be to write more documentation. Document the steps taking setting things up, log notes on when you have to fix something, archive webpages and videos that you used along the way. Currently doing that myself now after some time self-hosting.
One under-appreciated aspect of Docker is that it forces you to document all your setup steps in your dockerfile and docker-config files.
Learn how to properly backup your data in case you nuke something you shouldn’t
And regularly check them. I just found out the hard way this last week that my backups haven’t been running for a few weeks …
Yep.
I have friends in the SMB space, one thing they do is a regular backup verification (quarterly). At that frequency, restoring even a few files (especially to a new VM), is very indicative, especially if it’s a large dataset (e.g. Quickbooks).
In Enterprise, we do all sorts of validation, depending on the system. Some is performed as part of Data Center operations, some is by IT (those are separate things), some by Business Unit management and their IT counterparts.
Unfortunately, that wouldn’t have done anything. Because I did that in December and they stopped running like 2 weeks after my verification. I would have caught it on my next scheduled validation, but that doesn’t help me now 😕
Learning Linux is a great start.
Learning any coding language will help you understand a bit more about the programs will work, however there isn’t much need to actually learn a specific language unless you plan to add custom programs or scripts.
The general advice for email is don’t. It’s very risky to host and it’s a big target for spam. Plus there’s challenges getting the big companies to trust your domain.
However hosting things behind a VPN (or locally on your home network) can let you learn a lot about networking and firewalls without exposing yourself to much risk.
I have no direct experience with next cloud but I understand it can be hosted on Linux, you can buy a Synology NAS and run it in that, or use something like TrueNAS.
Personally my setup is on one physical server so I use Proxmox which lets me run 2 different Linux servers and trueNAS on one single computer through virtual machines. I like it because it lets me tinker with different stuff like home assistant and it won’t affect say my adblocker/VPN/reverse proxy. I also use Docker to run multiple services on one virtual machine without compatibility issues. If I started again, I’d probably have gotten bigger drives or invested in SSDs. My NAS is hard drives because of cost but it’s definitely hitting a limit when I need to pull a bunch of files. Super happy with wireguard-easy for VPN. I started with a proprietary version of openVPN on Oracle Linux and that was a mistake.
Is there a good way to not self host email yet maintain good control? Like storing it on a local device. I know that addresses are portable with a domain, but still.
I personally haven’t explored self hosting mail. This thread is a year old but might give you insight from people who have.
I’ve heard about using
mailbox.orgto do what you’re talking about. It seems the general consensus is getting a clean IP mentioned in the thread linked above is the biggest challenge.Edit: mailbox isn’t the what I was thinking of. I’ve definitely heard of services that let you self host half of it and just do the send receive part.
I feel like objecting to the “General advice about email is don’t” thing but I don’t know if I understand the objections well enough to refute them. I self host email for mspencer.net (meaning all requests including DNS are served from hardware in my living space) and I have literally zero spam and can’t remember the last time I had to intervene on my mail server.
On one hand: My emails are received without issue by major providers (outlook, gmail, etc) and I get nearly zero spam. (Two spam senders were using legitimate email services, I reported them, and got human-seeming replies from administrators saying they would take care of it.) And I get amusing pflogsumm (summarizes postfix logs) emails daily showing like 5 emails delivered, 45 rejected, with all of the things that were tried but didn’t work.
On the other: most of the spam prevention comes from greylist, making all new senders retry after a few minutes (because generally a legit MTA will retry while a spammer will not) and that delays most emails by a few minutes. And it was a bear to set up. I used a like 18 step walkthrough on linuxbabe dot com I think, but added some difficulty by storing some use and alias databases on OpenLDAP / slapd instead of in flat files.
But hey, unlimited mail aliases, and I’m thinking of configuring things so emails bounce if they seem to contain just a notification that terms and conditions are updated somewhere. I don’t know, cause some chaos I guess.
And I have no idea if my situation is persuasive for anyone because I don’t know what the general advice means. And I worry it’ll have the unfortunate side effect of making self hosting type nerds like me start forgetting how to run their own email, causing control of email to become more centralized. And I strongly dislike that.
I self host many services without any coding languages under my belt. I use Unraid because I found it user friendly for a newb like me. The most important skills I needed were good data backup habits just in case I messed something up, a willingness to read and learn, and the persistence to try more than once.
As others have said, you don’t need to know how to code, but you do need to be comfortable editing structured documents, so knowing a little programming does help.
Unfortunately, Nextcloud and email are two of the most difficult things to self-host. This is by reputation, I haven’t tried myself. Email is supposed to be particularly difficult and the usual advice is to not bother.
Jellyfin is pretty straight-forward as long as you don’t have a weird hardware decoding setup and as long as you don’t want remote access. If you do want remote access you need to use third party tools to do it securely. If it’s just for your own use then Tailscale makes it really easy. If you want to share with non-technical users it gets messy.
I remember reading that tailscale can't be used for sharing media, was that wrong?
Performance may be an issue. It’s not specifically designed for streaming performance, and being a software VPN, it will depend a great deal on the devices used at each end.
I believe the issue is only with Tailscale Funnels. With Funnels, the data runs through TS’s infrastructure so it’s subject to whatever kind of bandwidth limitation they feel like enacting.
If you want to program something, the closest you’re gonna get to programming is Ansible and Bash scripts.
You might want to get self hosting hardware like Synology or the like if you’re not ready to dig.
Otherwise here’s some things you need to know:
Oh and use Debian or Ubuntu LTS.
Send these my way chief
As briefly as possible:
Much appreciated 🙏
Gnarly stuff with the WD’s huh? Unfortunately I think that’s what I’ll end up having to put up with since I can’t really find the other options for a decent price around here.
Funny enough I was half-considering just using a bunch of WD Elements. You think the MyBooks might fare any better?
I used a mix of Elements and MyBook for years. Upon opening to heatsink, I didn’t see any significant differences between them. They use ASMedia or Jmicron, mostly ASMedia. The overheating issue depends on ambient temp and load. I’ve had one machine in a basement never experience them. Either way the solution is pretty straightforward and cheap. Once heatsinked, I haven’t had a problem.
The cables they come with are good.
Great summary!
Why Debian or Ubuntu? (I have my own thoughts, but it would be useful to show even high-level reasons why they’re preferred).
Re: Backup - Backblaze has a great writeup on backup approach today. I’m a fan of cloud being part of the mix (I use a combo of local replication and cloud, to mitigate different risks). Getting people to include backup from the start will help them long-term, so great you included it!
Predictable cadence, stable operation, timely updates, huge community and therefore documentation. You can get up to 5 years from an LTS release of Debian or Ubuntu. With Ubuntu LTS and Ubuntu Pro (free) you could theoretically run a machine without upgrading for 10 years. If you run workloads in containers, it doesn’t matter how old the host OS is. As long as it’s security patches, you can keep on trucking.
Ansible is nice but I’ll repeat (as I said in another thread) it’s kind of advanced and gives a much better return on investment if you manage several hosts, plan to switch hosts regularly, or plan to do regular rebuilds of the environment.
You don’t need to be a programmer to selfhost.
The most important “skills” to have if you want to selfhost imo are:
Basic Networking knowledge
Basic Linux knowledge
Basic docker/docker compose knowledge
But I’d say to not get lost in the papers and just jump right in. Imo, the best way to learn how to selfhost is to just… Do it. Most everything is free and fairly well documented
Perseverance
Enough focus to read documentation.
That’s really it. If your purpose is just self hosting learning bash could also be helpful. And yeah Linux would be a great choice.
But mostly, if you want to self host an instance of Nextcloud correctly and without having to deal with too many unexpected things, you have to read the documentation and do not rush. Most self hosted stuff isn’t “install and use”, because you’ll be your own server manager, and everything requires attention to be managed.
Docker or not docker you will have to deal with configuration, settings, requirements and updates.
So understanding how to read the docs/search and open github issues and taking time to read everything would be the most important skill for me.
Also writing down what you are doing would indeed be helpful too, in order not to lose track of what you’re doing on your server. (Check out Ansible).
Most apps out there simply need you to know about permissions, systemctl services and package managers.
Try to always find a specific package for your distro for everything you install (eg. .deb for Debian), and have strategies when this is not possible (aka using a Python venv when installing python programs).
Ansible will be really hard without Linux knowledge
Maybe do that later
Documentation has been mentioned already, what I’d add to that is planning.
Start with a list of high-level objectives, as in “Need a way to save notes, ideas, documents, between multiple systems, including mobile devices”.
Then break that down to high-level requirements such as “Implement Joplin, and a sync solution”.
Those high-level requirements then spawn system requirements, such as Joplin needs X disk space, user accounts, etc.
Each of those branches out to technical requirements, which are single-line, single-task descriptions (you can skip this, it’s a nice-to-have):
“Create folder Joplin on server A”
“Set folder permissions XYZ on Joplin folder”
Think of it all as a tree, starting from your objectives. If you document it like this first, you won’t go doing something as you build that you won’t remember why you’re doing it, or make decisions on the fly that conflict with other objectives.
This is really smart actually
If you have a VM, there is no need for docker. Start by installing ssh. Enable public key auth. Disable password authentication. Set up fail2ban with ssh. Set up ufw. Set up nextcloud. Avoid hosting your own mail, that’s another level of complexity. If you really need it, try mailcow.
If you have all that and didn’t touch a GUI on your way, you’re good to go.
I would not run anything outside of docker honestly. Docker is so much easier to setup and maintain.
Absolutely can and should use docker in a VM. ☺️
Along with the things others have said (Backups, Linux, Docker, Networking) I’d also recommend getting comfortable with server and network security. A lot of this is wrapped up in the simple mantra “install your goddamn updates!” But, there is more to it than that. For example, if you go with Nextcloud, read through their hardening guide and seriously consider implementing all of the recommendation. Also think through how you intend to manage both the server and instance. If this is all local, then it is easier as you can keep SSH access to the server firewalled off from the internet. If you host part of your stuff “in the cloud”, you’ll want to start looking at limiting down access and using keys to login (which is good practice for all situations). Also, never use default credentials. You may also want to familiarize yourself with the logs provided by the applications and maybe setup some monitoring around them. I personally run Nextcloud and I feed all my logs into Splunk (you can run a free instance in a docker container). I have a number of dashboards I look at every morning to keep an eye on things. E.g. Failed/successful logins, traffic sources, URI requests, file access, etc. If your server is attached to the internet it will be under attack constantly. Fail2Ban on my wireguard container banned 112 IP addresses over the last 24 hours, for 3 failed attempts to login via SSH. Less commonly, attackers try to log in to my Nextcloud instance. And my WordPress site is under constant attack. If you choose to run Wordpress, be very careful about the plugins you choose to install, and then keep them up to date. Wordpress itself is reasonably secure, the plugins are a shit-show and worse when they aren’t kept up to date.
I would caution against self hosting email long term. It’s fine for the educational value but there’s a lot of annoying obstacles you can encounter repeatedly even after everything is established.
Why are you wanting to use python for self hosting? Python is a programming and scripting language.
There are two big things I would focus on. The first thing is networking, the OSI model and http basics. The other thing I would look into is Linux containers. If you can get both of these you are golden. Learn how to use and write docker compose files and then looking into building your own containers with Dockerfiles. You don’t really need to build your own containers but it is good for learning
Programming is generally not needed when self-hosting. At best you might learn Ansible, Puppet, Salt, or Terraform, but that’s for advanced scenarios (e.g. easily shifting the workloads between machines or into the cloud).
Learning the ins-and-outs of containers will get you the biggest return on investment. They’re not strictly necessary but most tools will expect that is the common use-case and the community won’t be as much help. Until you know more about containers I would also recommend Docker over Podman. It has a few more “conveniences” than Podman and orgs like LinuxServer will target Docker as the engine.
Hey OP, I’m just starting my self-hosting journey as well. I can program a little bit in Python and C++ but I haven’t needed any of that so far. As others have said, some familiarity with Linux would be very helpful. The things I’ve done so far:
Eventually I plan to set up a NAS with Immich and some local IP cameras and Plex or something similar.
Patience, and knowing when to look for documentation. Keep notes of stuff as you go. Just like in real IT, documentation can go a long way. Forgetting simple things can cause everything to fall apart at some point.
I don’t know how to code, but I did a lot of internet searching on the commands to use (since I was also new to Linux). When I started to self host I was lucky the projects I wanted were popular enough that they had good documentation. Eventually after spinning up a lot of services I got the hang of the general structure of docker compose files and that’s the extent of any kind of new language I learned, haha
It depends on what you want to self host.
As an example, a family member self hosted home assistant. They didn’t have to know anything really. That was all they were doing and they bought the canned implementation.
If you have multiple services, you may need to know nginx configuration with virtual hosting.
You may want to use podman or docker or kubernetes.
It all depends …
I don’t know a bit about programming. Yunohost is a great place to start for self hosting a variety of services. For Jellyfin/downloading, I use Swizzin Community Edition. I like both of these projects because neither uses Docker lol. I tried some Docker based setups but could never get my head around it. YMMV.
I think if you have a mini PC or something you don’t mins installing server specific OS on, proxmox VE is pretty great. It can be a bit of a headache depending on what you want to do but it also makes expanding your self hosting super easy/fun.
Proxmox let’s you created virtual machines or containers and easily manage them.
Currently I run a mini PC.(Beelinks are great for this and pretty cheap with more power than a raspberry pi)
Simplest set up? No. But I also just started self hosting. You’re gonna hit some.headaches regardless but it’s also extremely rewarding and I’ve learned alot.
Edit: if you’re only wanting to run one thing (say jellyfin) . A raspberry pi with tail scale and jellyfin is how I started. Works just fine.
To self-host, you do not need to know how to code.
I agree but also say that learning enough to be able to write simple bash scripts is maybe required.
There’s always going to be stuff you want to automate and knowing enough bash to bang out a script that does what you want that you can drop into cron or systemd timers is probably a useful time investment.
attentiveness
That’s an excellent question.
If I were to start over, the first thing that I would do is start by learning the basics of networking and set up a freakin’ VPN! IMO exposing services to the public internet should be considered more of an advanced level task. When you don’t know what you don’t know, it’s risky and frankly unnecessary.
The lowest barrier to entry for a personal VPN, by far, is Tailscale. Automatic internal DNS and clients for nearly any device makes finding services on a dedicated machine really, really, easy. Look into putting tailscale right into the compose file so you automatically get an internal DNS records for a service rather than a whole machine.
From there, play around with more ownership (work) over what can touch your network. Switch from Tailscale’s “trusted” login to hosting your own Headscale instance. Add a PiHole or AdGuard exit node and set up your own internal DNS records.
Maybe even scrap the magic (someone else’s logic that may or may not be doing things you need) and go for a plain-Jane Wireguard setup.
the patience to read lots of documentation.
And maybe patience to power through a lack of documentation.
One thing I would do differently is setup LDAP and OIDC so you can use the same authentication credentials for different apps (at least the ones that support them). I use LLDAP and Authelia for this purpose.