Why does it feel like protesting isn't as "extreme" as it used to be?
from ramble81@lemmy.zip to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 14:02
https://lemmy.zip/post/42601060

May be phrasing it wrong, but I look at actions like Labor rights, Pride, Civil Rights, Black Panthers, etc. where actions of protesters felt much intense and made more of an impact in actually changing things vs now where there are protests but it feels like it constantly falls of deaf ears.

Have we just not hit that breaking point yet? Have we collectively been beat down so hard? Or have we forgotten how to truly fight for rights? Or… am I just completely off the mark and missing something else?

#nostupidquestions

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Xaphanos@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 14:11 next collapse

Your first 3 all seem to be on target to me.

queermunist@lemmy.ml on 28 Jun 14:12 next collapse

People are organizing in their communities to patrol for ICE and respond to ICE raids, which is quite a bit like the Black Panthers “cop watch” and community patrols.

I know it’s not like when protesters burned down a police station in 2020, but things are happening.

AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 03:48 collapse

It always takes time. Even when everyone knows that they would win if they just step up to the plate as one unified people.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=tdIK3JFIWNI

If we all break “the rules” together, they can’t get all of us

ccunning@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 14:17 next collapse

It’s probably at least partially something adjacent to survivorship bias. The most remarkable actions of the past that “survive” to the present to be retold are the ones that were most impactful.

But all of the current protests you feel are not as impactful help build a foundation for the more impactful ones.

lordnikon@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 14:48 collapse

I think the the other issue is reporting of events is split into thousands of sources. Just like with media there is no longer a shared conversation between everyone. Back in the day. If Walter Cronkite talked about it everybody knew about it. But know everything is fractured into their own subcultures and to extent their own realities.

BeatTakeshi@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 22:05 collapse

Another domain where big tech is not helping organise… They boost hatred not just for engagement and ads, but so masses don’t organise against those technothieves

mapto@feddit.it on 28 Jun 14:22 next collapse

But should it be extreme? I reckon it should be effective instead. Whether effective means awareness, resignations or something else is a conversation that varies a lot from context to context.

Valmond@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 14:26 next collapse

Yeah, better not disturbe anyone when you are doing your awareness “protests”…

ahornsirup@feddit.org on 28 Jun 14:33 next collapse

Those do work better. Antagonising the people whose support you rely on to effect change is a horrible strategy, the more of a disturbance protests cause to the average person, the less likely said average person is to be supportive.

Montagge@lemmy.zip on 28 Jun 15:01 next collapse

I was mad that the government was disappearing people, but then a protest made it so I couldn’t drive where I wanted to.

ahornsirup@feddit.org on 28 Jun 15:28 collapse

That’s a vast oversimplification of the thought process and emotions that’s going on there and an extremely uncharitable one at that (most people have their own lives to worry about, it’s usually less “I can’t drive where I want to” and more “I have to get to work”), but essentially yes. That’s the reality you have to work with.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 28 Jun 14:59 collapse

Only this strategy has literally never worked. Your rights were secured by people who caused all kinds of disturbances. And in the first place anyone who still hasn't taken a side is a fascist in denial or will never take a side.

mapto@feddit.it on 01 Jul 05:00 collapse

I’d claim that it should not be about “anyone”. It should be targeted. If you are to “disturb” someone, better do this intentionally and with the clear idea what such disturbance is meant to achieve.

I’m not saying you should stand still. I’m saying that you should think before (and after) you act. Wouldn’t hurt too much, would it?

wewbull@feddit.uk on 28 Jun 15:48 collapse

Of course, but the metric you choose for “effectiveness” is critical. In the current situation the metric must be “removal from office”.

mapto@feddit.it on 01 Jul 05:03 collapse

The beauty of pluralism is that it allows for different means (and metrics) of achieving a goal.

And I’m saying this as someone coming from a post-communist country where totalitarianism is the powerful position.

WeirdGoesPro@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 28 Jun 14:25 next collapse

I think that part of it is that the authorities are confident that we can’t do much. In the 60’s, wide scale protest that was not a preamble to a riot was rare. In recent times, everyone expects things to go off peacefully and just come to an end at some point. This plays directly into their hands, and they are confident that we are toothless.

Cruxifux@feddit.nl on 28 Jun 15:24 collapse

Peaceful protests will do fuck all when the white house rhetoric is that a large percentage of the population (anybody who doesn’t support Trump) are literally enemies of the state.

Liberals do not understand this for some reason, but peaceful protests only work with at least the THREAT of violence, unless you live in a country that actually cares about representing the people. Which America does not.

WeirdGoesPro@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 28 Jun 17:04 collapse

In the words of Anton LaVey, they are addicted to the “good guy badge”. They’d rather die feeling morally clean than get their hands dirty to save their country, neighbors, and values. The liberals I hear judging people for violent protest the most are the ones who are privileged enough to have not personally felt the consequences yet.

In my opinion, it is a grotesque cowardice to admonish people for fighting for their lives just because you don’t have to.

Cruxifux@feddit.nl on 29 Jun 01:59 collapse

Exactly. I totally agree. It’s absolute bullshit.

ThePiedPooper@discuss.online on 28 Jun 14:42 next collapse

If we haven’t hit the breaking point yet, then we never will. These protests CAN’T be civil. We need widespread civil disobedience all across the country, and especially in D.C.

NoneOfUrBusiness@fedia.io on 28 Jun 15:01 next collapse

Decades of state propaganda. It's a lot easier for a modern Westerner to feel like the system works and just needs a nudge than it is for a worker in the interwar period or a black person in the 60s.

Cruxifux@feddit.nl on 28 Jun 15:20 next collapse

The black panthers were constantly organizing within their communities, and bringing actual weapons and shows of force against the state. The state imprisoned many of their leaders, and killed Fred Hampton in his sleep. That’s why they were actually having an impact. Because they were willing to risk their LIVES over it, and they didn’t ever stop. I don’t really see that happening anywhere now.

just_ducky_in_NH@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 14:43 next collapse

Not yet, maybe.

brendansimms@lemmy.world on 02 Jul 18:44 collapse

I guess its up to us

Philote@lemmy.ml on 28 Jun 15:44 next collapse

A few things come to my mind on why.

  1. We aren’t fresh off of WW2 when a large portion of the planet was personally affected, extremely sensitive and aware of the impact government overreach can cause.
  2. We aren’t bored, we have all these highly refined dopamine injecting options, maybe not nefarious in nature but keeps many of us docile and complacent.
  3. Extremely effective propaganda to muddy the waters on what’s actually going on and what a united peoples opinion even is.
  4. Globalization of the money, I believe on the grand scheme, the money players are softly united behind the scenes and not backing one side or the other but playing the middle ground class war. So no big money to support a cause.
hexonxonx@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 28 Jun 16:10 next collapse

Americans are brainwashed to believe that there’s only one particular and specific way to protest, and beyond that all you can do is kill people.

They haven’t yet realized that there is a huge swathe of options in between, and it requires no organization or depending on others, and no violence against anyone. You can just quietly do stuff. Probably less risky than doing anything publicly in a country with ubiquitous surveillance and the law no longer matters. Protests are great for showing the level of public support for a movement, but if the government doesn’t represent the people their effect will be minimal for producing real change.

There currently is no cost for ventures into fascism. Make it so expensive they’ll think twice next time (if there is a next time.)

Bongles@lemmy.zip on 28 Jun 21:34 collapse

You can just quietly do stuff.

Like what?

LostXOR@fedia.io on 29 Jun 04:20 collapse

That's a nice ICE vehicle, would be a shame if its windows were smashed and its tires punctured...

It's not hard to cause a lot of inconvenience with a little effort in a nonviolent way.

recently_Coco@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 28 Jun 16:35 next collapse

“The revolution will not be televised”

It’s a phrase I hear a lot in leftist spaces. Effectively, you have to be aware that publicizing these things is a great way to get them shut down.

The work is being done locally, and quietly. Advertising these events in public spaces like this one will very likely lead to them not getting off the ground due to infiltration or oppression

dylanmorgan@sh.itjust.works on 28 Jun 17:42 collapse

There’s a second factor at work, which is that the institutions targeted by more “extreme” actions also don’t want those actions publicized.

Consider an action like the one depicted in “How to Blow Up a Pipeline.” If they don’t have a perpetrator in cuffs, the oil company and the cops would not want to admit the action happened at all, because it makes them look vulnerable.

invertedspear@lemmy.zip on 28 Jun 17:02 next collapse

The powers that be have no fear of ignoring protestors any more. Or education presents civil rights protests as peaceful and effective, that all we need to do is raise awareness and show solidarity and oppressors will relent. Education speaks of the black panthers, but doesn’t go into depth on how they were the armed wing of the movement.

So now today we’re protesting because we don’t like what’s happening, but what is the consequence to the power hungry? If the protests get anything approaching non peaceful, or even if they just want to, those in charge can escalate to military actions.

We also don’t have a clearly defined win condition. What is going to make things better? When do we stop? Is the goal just to raise awareness to get people to vote for a change in 1-4 years? Or are we looking for something more immediate?

Finally how far are we willing to go? If I’m not willing to die for it, or to risk my current comfortable life style, can I ever really push hard enough against current conditions? They’re willing to kill to keep their power, am I willing to kill to pry it from them?

They don’t fear us because they know we have so much more to lose than they do. We are not yet playing a game with equal stakes.

I don’t have a solution to this, so I’ll at least keep doing the peaceful thing, because it’s better than doing nothing.

BigMikeInAustin@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 17:37 next collapse

The big, well reported protests were the result of decades, nay centuries, of protests.

Sit-in protests were common.

Rosa Parks was, by far, not the first Black person to be arrested for keeping her seat.

Hundreds of thousands of workers died or were hurt in preventable dangerous workplaces and labor protests.

It is hard and costly to go against the government.

Mouselemming@sh.itjust.works on 28 Jun 18:25 next collapse

Shame.

Those now in power, and Trump especially, have none. They don’t even understand the concept. And it’s been embraced by his hyenas.

Used to be, when the general population became aware of atrocities, and that they were committed against innocent people, they refused to continue to support those who had done wrong. Now Trump waves it in their face like a banner and they follow him

Used to be,

shalafi@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 23:05 collapse

Consider Nixon resigning over Watergate, which would be small beans today.

AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 03:42 collapse

This all started with Wilson and his Southern Revisionist cohorts. They changed the law in 1874 illegally. Had that clause not been eliminated, Wilson and by extension the modern GOP and “Police,” wouldn’t have had immunity from prosecution, which is what the 1871 Congress intended when they passed Federal Statute Section 1983. Also Qualified Immunity would be recognized as the unconstitutional and illegal bullshit mealy mouthed lawyering that it is.

web.archive.org/…/qualified-immunity-supreme-cour…

just_ducky_in_NH@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 14:43 collapse

Holy smoke! This is huge!

DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works on 28 Jun 18:45 next collapse

Desensitation, perhaps. Informations flows more freely now, you hear protests/riots/rebellions everywhere, it just feels “standard” nowadays.

I’ve seen so much conflict on the news from all around the world. BLM in the USA, Hong Kong anti-extradition, France retirement age increase related protests, Serbia peaceful protesters getting blasted with an energy weapon (yes the governement used an actual energy weapon, its not a conspiracy theory), “Freedom” Convoy in Canada, UK Xenobophic Race Riots, Syrian Civil War, Invasion of Ukraine, Israel-Palestine conflict and war crimes, etc…

Conflict just became “normal”.

garbagebagel@lemmy.world on 28 Jun 23:52 next collapse

Someone just set off a bomb in front of a politicians office in my province. Not confirmed but fairly certain that was a protest.

Pride turned more into a celebration rather than a protest in recent years with the capitalization of it, but due to recent regression I can imagine it going back to more intense protests in some towns at least now.

Depends where you live but most of the time the government does try to keep even controversial protests pretty light with the excuse of keeping people safe, but there’s always more extreme action that people take, it maybe just doesn’t get shown as a “protest” per se.

foggy@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 00:13 next collapse

Because everything that’s happening is obviously bad to the majority.

crimsonpoodle@pawb.social on 29 Jun 03:37 next collapse

Successful protests have clear policy objectives; also work from home and the lack of large factories that can be shut down by walk outs means that the collective bargaining is slightly weaker in places like USA.

FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au on 29 Jun 03:58 next collapse

The things people are protesting against now are pathetically trivial compared to the things those people protested, that’s why.

They’re more just a bunch of people don’t like something, or are against something that they think is happening when it actually isn’t (or is at least a 50/50 issue).

There’s also the fact that most of the protesters these days are just virtue signallers, or are rent-a-protest paid protesters who couldn’t care less.

Jmsnwbrd@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 04:54 next collapse

This is ridiculous. I have been at three protests this year so far. One for union rights, another for immigration rights, and the third for keeping the presidential powers in check. None of these are “trivial”. Maybe the real answer is that the privileged don’t feel the need to look at the bigger picture.

DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social on 29 Jun 09:27 collapse

He’s a fascist.

GaMEChld@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 05:49 collapse

Where do I get one of these paid protest jobs? Do I need to be on the Illuminati Newsletter?

Fifty Five Iron Penned

FreedomAdvocate@lemmy.net.au on 29 Jun 07:25 collapse

Just go sign up for any of the activist organisations that advertise it:

torontosun.com/…/kinsella-protesters-paid-to-take…

Did you really think that the protests that are 90% pensioners holding all the same print signs and chanting the same thing, often reading from their printouts they were given, were organic?

crowdsondemand.com/…/fill-the-house-proven-strate…

DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social on 29 Jun 09:27 next collapse

🤡

GaMEChld@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 12:31 next collapse

ROFL so instead of taking me directly to these supposed job postings, you link me random Internet garbage that says they exist with the same credibility that you have. Which is none.

Meanwhile friends of mine have protested and not gotten paid anything. But they are probably Illuminati.

Mount Rushmore was a cover up.

Godwins_Law@lemmy.ca on 29 Jun 15:04 collapse

I’m intrigued, can you find any links to pages to sign up as a “protester” I looked around on those sites but couldn’t find any.

LovableSidekick@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 04:04 next collapse

Too many people’s idea of activism now is to rant on social media and downvote all the bad thoughts. “I’m raising awareness!”

spacecadet@lemm.ee on 29 Jun 14:29 collapse

I was gonna say something similar. The amount of “activists “ that have never set foot at a protest is astounding. Most of the recent protests have been full of geriatrics reliving the past glory of the 60’s. Then the young people that do show up are nobody to look up to or admire, they are usually uneducated about the subject and have a plethora of mental issues or only there because they have a huge unrelated chip on their shoulder.

Also, the protestors of the past in my city were always well dressed professional people with a clearly defined goal. Currently, it’s just trust fund babies mad at daddy pretending to be anarchistic in their $3800/month apartment burning down the poor part of the city they don’t live in because they are mad at Trump and ice.

AppleTea@lemmy.zip on 29 Jun 15:14 next collapse

speaking of an unrelated chip on one’s shoulder…

LovableSidekick@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 18:33 collapse

“geriatrics reliving the past glory of the 60’s” ?

I get that saying anything positive about boomers is pretty much against the rules of social media, but for fuck’s sake dude, you’re talking about people who are out there actually trying to do something for the world instead of thumb-typing nihilism into their phones. No respect at all?

Fleur_@aussie.zone on 29 Jun 04:35 next collapse

They stormed capital hill lmao

Jmsnwbrd@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 04:51 collapse

That wasn’t a fucking protest. Give me a break. There’s a difference between a riot, an insurrection and a protest.

Fleur_@aussie.zone on 29 Jun 07:20 next collapse

That was literally a right wing protest about an election result. Protests aren’t always good. All those words you used have broad overlap and generally things escalate from protest to riot to insurrection.

DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social on 29 Jun 09:24 next collapse

Coup attempts aren’t protests and neither are riots and all the gaslighting in the world won’t change that. That an event can change from one thing to another is meaningless to that fact.

Fleur_@aussie.zone on 29 Jun 10:02 collapse

Gaslighting isn’t real and you’re fucking crazy

Jmsnwbrd@lemmy.world on 02 Jul 20:31 collapse

Your logic is misaligned in this comment itself. In your comment you state that “generally things escalate from” and then list three different things . . . A protest, a riot, and an insurrection. This is because they are all different and your logical brain knows it. Your illogical brain uses them as an excuse for the right wing extreme behavior that occured during the god-damned insurrection. How any true patriot could be okay with what happened on the 6th is beyond me. We are supposed to be bonded as Americans. We are supposed to understand that we might not agree on everything, but we are in this together. We are supposed to agree that voting is sacred and that the results are the results.

Protest - a statement or action expressing disapproval of or objection to something.

Riot - a violent disturbance of the peace by a crowd.

Insurrection - a violent uprising against an authority or government.

The insurrectionists held an uprising against the government, stormed the capital, and threatened to take over and change the election results. This is fact neither born from one media outlet or another. It had witnesses and is a part of this countries history now.

Fleur_@aussie.zone on 03 Jul 14:30 collapse

Right. So using your definitions of protest, riot and insurrection and using your statement that protests, riots and insurrections are mutually exclusive; How would you describe a situation where a crowd is demonstrating their objection to the government with a violent uprising?

Every use of language is contextual and by forcing yourself into an absolutist understanding you’ll lose nuance in your interpretation.

That said. Idgaf loser keep coping

Jmsnwbrd@lemmy.world on 05 Jul 10:36 collapse

It’s the end product that I am giving a definition. By the way, what did I “lose”? How am I a loser for caring about my young family and my country that I care about? Why is this a competition for you? I am an American who is worried about where this country is heading in many aspects of it (Dem and Republican alike). I do not belong to a single party and I vote my conscience on issues. So, I ask you again . . . What did I “lose”? I am worried about a corporate America where working class people are duped by their government officials and are losing the ability to make a living. If that makes me a “loser” than I guess we’re all losers. And if you think that I am the enemy (a fellow American) then we are definitely all “losers”.

chunes@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 10:12 collapse

Really? Because it seems to me the only difference is what your preferred media decide to call it.

sith@lemmy.zip on 29 Jun 09:35 next collapse

Because the political and economical situation is extreme.

darthelmet@lemmy.world on 29 Jun 15:02 next collapse

They were successfully beaten down. More specifically, the ORGANIZATIONS were beaten down. The most successful protest movements weren’t people spontaneously showing up in the streets. They were the culmination of the efforts of community organizing. There was planning and they had people they could rely on and who relied on them. But things like unions and the Black Panthers were violently destroyed.

Now protesting is atomized like everything else. A protest that forms by posting to show up somewhere at some time on social media with signs is a collection of individuals rather than a group. If you’re just surrounded by strangers you don’t know, are you going to be able to take more radical actions?

That’s not to say none of the more serious/organized protests are happening though. There were those water protectors who tried to stop that pipeline. There were the rail worker and dockworker strikes. I don’t know how organized it was, but it was heartening to see the LA protests start out by actively protecting people being targeted by ICE. And perhaps there are more that just didn’t get any media attention. But in any case, you see how hard they try to crack down on those. But sometimes they can succeed.

phoenixz@lemmy.ca on 29 Jun 15:24 next collapse

Those US nation wide protests that happened a few weeks ago did nothing. People already forgot about them. You’d neeto do that all day every day until trump is gone, hut that ain’t going to happen.

ricecake@sh.itjust.works on 29 Jun 20:10 collapse

The police have gotten very effective at quashing effective movements, and we’ve had decades of concerted effort to make it more difficult to organize and to get people to actually oppose the concept of effective resistance in their own favor.
People with power don’t want people threatening to destabilize that power. People who set media narratives need access to people with power, and so they don’t want to convey those destabilizing factors positively.
This makes people view them negatively, if they even see them at all.

America has never had a culling of the rich and powerful. The closest we got was when we decided to exchange a rich and powerful person far away for a few closer to home.
As such, there’s no weight given to the morale of anyone who isn’t rich and powerful.
Reporters, politicians and businesses people have never had to put their heads in the scale when making choices.