What's going to happen to gas stations as cars electrify?
from compostgoblin@piefed.blahaj.zone to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 15:40
https://piefed.blahaj.zone/c/nostupidquestions/p/618672/what-s-going-to-happen-to-gas-stations-as-cars-electrify

At a certain point of EV adoption, selling gas won’t be a very profitable business, because fewer and fewer cars will need it. But there will still be some cars that need gas, that final, say, 30% of ICE cars that are still on the road. But if all or most gas stations shut down at roughly the same time, because they operate under the same business conditions, then those last few ICE drivers will be pretty out of luck, no?

To be clear, this is not an argument that we shouldn’t electrify and decarbonize as fast as possible. I’m more interested in the logistics of managing that transition. And I’m sure that gas stations are not the only case of this phenomenon.

#nostupidquestions

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marcos@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 15:48 next collapse

They won’t all close at the same time. They don’t operate under the same business conditions.

They operate under very similar business conditions, and any small difference will dictate which one will close first.

DebatableRaccoon@lemmy.ca on 05 Mar 15:50 next collapse

Most likely fuel stations will retreat to outside of city borders, and obviously a lot being shut down and even more people being laid off along the way. It’ll happen slowly but there’ll be three or four local ones suddenly disappearing practically overnight, the last few being the ones clinging on for dear life due to having no better options until the inevitable closure.

litchralee@sh.itjust.works on 05 Mar 16:17 collapse

Predominantly in Texas, Buc-ees is nominally a chain of gasoline stations but they’re known for the stores attached to the station, selling all manner of kitsch but also fast food. Ok, they’re also known for having 100+ pumps at each location. But that’s important because it means they’ve always been located at the periphery of city boundaries, on huge lots, usually on the highways into or out of town.

When the gasoline business dries up, Buc-ees still has other business interests to keep them going in the road travel market, and they have real estate along major corridors that could be redeveloped. One option is to invite businesses that occupy motorist’s time while parked charging their electric cars, like wayside attractions (besides Buc-ees itself, obviously). Another would be to fully entrench themselves: develop a hotel so that visiting business people always stop at the Buc-ees before leaving.

So while neighborhood fuel stations would see a slow demise, Buc-ees can turn their fuel locations into new cash cows. This is why diversification is so important.

CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de on 05 Mar 15:59 next collapse

Some can be converted to EV chargers. It’s considered contaminated ground, so the options are limited without expensive remediation. Depending on the economic situation they may just be abandoned.

They won’t all shut down at once. The ICE cars won’t all turn off at once; they’ll fade.

Munkisquisher@lemmy.nz on 05 Mar 16:21 collapse

Here they pay a hefty bond to put in the tanks, it’s cheaper to remediate the site and get the bond back

CompactFlax@discuss.tchncs.de on 05 Mar 16:31 next collapse

Good idea.

bluGill@fedia.io on 05 Mar 16:26 collapse

There are still a few stations without that, but it has been the norm for new or remodled stations for decades in the us.

just_another_person@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:01 next collapse

Many in Urban areas will be fine for quite some time. Others with more space have already started adding EV charging, and increasing the presence of their convenience operations since EV charging customers will be at the properties a bit longer than normal gas fueling customers.

It’s just a pivot on their profit model and focus.

False@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:08 collapse

“Adding EV chargers to gas stations” is the missing EV network everyone keeps talking about. That and starting to add them to things like roadside restaurants like Denny’s or Cracker Barrel - spend at least $50 on food to get your charging validated!

givesomefucks@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:03 next collapse

They already don’t make money off gas

Their profits are the stuff in the store, the excuse people have for overpaying is that they’re already there.

We’ll see a lot close, and the ones that remain grow to be basic conscience stores.

They’ll still have the gas pumps, because it’s expensive to remove them. But new builds will likely just be parking lots instead of pumps.

The old stations would be what people have to rely on.

As such the ones on the outskirts would be the ones that close first.

Last gas stations will be in downtown areas where getting rid of 60 year old pumps wouldn’t gain anymore parking than people parking at the pumps.

bluGill@fedia.io on 05 Mar 16:25 collapse

Gas makes money. The margins are low - but the volumes are high. Most people are not buying what is inside so while margins are higher the profit is about the same

givesomefucks@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:41 collapse

The reality is that gas station profit margins on fuel are famously thin. After accounting for the wholesale cost of gasoline, taxes, and credit card processing fees (which can be a significant percentage of the transaction), the net profit on a gallon of gas can be just a few cents. This makes relying on fuel sales alone a risky proposition. The market is volatile, and a small swing in wholesale prices can wipe out your already slim margins.

petrosoftinc.com/…/how-do-gas-stations-grab-profi…

village604@adultswim.fan on 05 Mar 17:54 collapse

Thin margins doesn’t mean unprofitable.

False@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:05 next collapse

Selling gas is already not profitable. They typically sell it at slightly above cost. The real money maker is the convenience store attached.

SaveTheTuaHawk@lemmy.ca on 05 Mar 16:13 next collapse

Costco sells gas at a loss.

antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 05 Mar 21:32 collapse

And even then the average person with a Costco credit card is waiting in line to save $3 per 10 gallons of gas. So a typical gas station might be netting less than $5 per tank.

protist@mander.xyz on 06 Mar 03:07 collapse

Way less than $5 per tank, more like 5¢/gallon at an average gas station. They make 70¢ off me filling my tank.

antlion@lemmy.dbzer0.com on 06 Mar 04:30 collapse

But the credit card is an extra 5% on gas. Most other cars might do 3% on gas so that might only be netting 2% or an extra 10 cents off per gallon.

Onomatopoeia@lemmy.cafe on 05 Mar 16:58 next collapse

And this has been the case since the early 70’s

Elting@piefed.social on 05 Mar 17:46 next collapse

That’s true but the business model is built around the quick fill up. Incentives will change when people have to spend an hour at their stop. Also a majority of people will not be driving far enough from their house to need it. I think convenience stores will stick around except the ones that operate off highways. Those ones will have to change into what high way rest stops are. It would also be possible just to install chargers at existing rest stops.

kevincox@lemmy.ml on 05 Mar 18:31 collapse

Yeah, downtown there are tons of gas-station brands that are just convenience stores. Surely many gas stations will offer electric charging but since most people will be charging at home the total number of gas stations will surely drop. Some will turn into convenience stores and some will just shut down.

Brkdncr@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:18 next collapse

They will close. If you look at how many gas stations there are you’ll see that they are everywhere. I was driving through Iowa and saw an intersection that had 6 gas stations.

foodandart@lemmy.zip on 05 Mar 16:18 next collapse

They’ll be closed and turned into bistros like the ones in my city have been. Actually pretty cool to go dine at, and be outside and sheltered, what with the steel canopy where the pumps were…

cRazi_man@europe.pub on 05 Mar 16:22 next collapse

There have always been fuel stations that get shut down and you see them around town already either abandoned, repurposed (often hand car washes) or demolished and built over.

As these gradually shut down in the future, I wonder if some could just go straight to becoming commercial charger stations. Or if anyone can think of a better use for a large outdoor covered parking area + large underground storage tank + small convenience store.

over_clox@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:23 next collapse

Whatever the future of petrol, you gotta consider they sell way more than fuel. They’re called convenience stores for a reason, which I semi-jokingly refer to as addiction stations. They can and do sell basically anything they legally can that people are addicted to, beer, cigarettes, soft drinks, energy drinks, candy, hot food, etc…

So, whatever the long term future of petroleum, the stores themselves for the most part aren’t going anywhere, they’ll keep selling every sort of quick grab fast selling goto items that keep the customers coming back.

bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works on 05 Mar 19:31 collapse

They’ll start selling weed probably lol

over_clox@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 19:34 collapse

You’re not too far off base actually, remember when convenience stores used to sell spice?..

They’ll sell whatever they legally can, and even then some things are still in that grey area…

bridgeenjoyer@sh.itjust.works on 05 Mar 20:50 collapse

They sell cratom too.

Spice? I’m not hip on drugs, idk what that even is!

Edit I looked it up lol. Never done drugs besides coffee so I had no idea what spice was looool

forestbeasts@pawb.social on 06 Mar 01:07 collapse

Whatever it is, it must flow.

TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 16:27 next collapse

Same thing that happened to horse stables

Nemo@slrpnk.net on 05 Mar 16:37 next collapse

I doubt gas stations will make very appealing AirBnBs

humorlessrepost@lemmy.world on 06 Mar 05:00 collapse

Around me they’re turning into mediocre bbq joints and cbd stores.

Cethin@lemmy.zip on 06 Mar 06:37 collapse

They could make for an alright brewery. Sure, it wouldn’t be the prettiest, but a pre-built covered outdoor seating area is hard to come by. The entirior would need a lot of work though.

Atelopus-zeteki@fedia.io on 05 Mar 16:37 collapse

Rented out as housing to the youngest generation for exorbitant prices?

bluGill@fedia.io on 05 Mar 16:29 next collapse

one will close - but everyone will go to the other 3 on the intersection thus saving them for a few years. Then another.... and soon the one across town closing helps those left.

the average car is 12 years old so there is a lot of life left in gas stations even after all new cars are ev. once you have a station a lot of the costs are sunk costs so you won't close just because demand drops a little. Chains will build less as the numbers stop working but they will build in places for a while while closing other locations.

Tetsuo@jlai.lu on 05 Mar 16:45 next collapse

I suppose we could also see in the future more cars that can swap their battery in charging stations.

IMO that’s the more long term use of these stations. Instead of buying gas you would swap for new batteries.

Gas stations are often well placed for refuelling so might as well repurpose them to do that but for electric cars.

Electric scooters with swappable batteries work super well in urban areas. I’m convinced once this tech is deployed on most cars it will trivialise long trips in electric cars.

This and electrified highways would be amazing.

RIotingPacifist@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 17:32 collapse

we could also see in the future more cars that can swap their battery in charging stations.

I know they have been demoing this tech in China, but if you have at home charging a major advantage of electric vehicles is that you don’t need worry about refuling during normal usage. So I think battery-swap technology is going to be limited to long distance trips (which are kind of only a major thing in the US & China due to the way both isolate their workers from their homes to prevent them from organizing).

I was going to say if people are comfortable renting the battery in their car, they might as well be comfortable renting a space in a larger vehicle such as a train, but I think Americans do regularly rent their cars (or at least only pay interest on the loans they take out to purchase the cars), so maybe it’s not so crazy, but I personally wouldn’t let anyone swap the battery in the phone or laptop for one that is likely less well taken care of.

electrified highways would be amazing.

We already have those: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification

Tyres are a major source of microplastics that doesn’t stop when they go electric: pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5664766/

Electric scooters with swappable batteries work super well in urban areas.

This sounds cool though

Onomatopoeia@lemmy.cafe on 05 Mar 16:49 next collapse

Same thing that happened to them before - when they were Service Stations.

blarghly@lemmy.world on 05 Mar 17:12 next collapse

I’m going to assume we are discussing the US and Canada, as these are the most auto-dependent places in the world. I’ll also divide my response into ideal and realistic scenarios.

The ideal scenario is not that ICE engines are replaced by EVs, but that ICE engines are replaced by walking, cycling, transit, and electric micromobility. This would require:

  1. Pigouvian taxes - taxing the release of carbon into the atmosphere, taxing the registration of vehicles (more), taxing the use of highways (for road use and wear and tear) or the use of highway exit ramps (imposing the externality of your vehicle on the urban environment). These taxes can be imposed initially at a very low cost, and then increased over time to gradually make the social costs imposed by these activities equal to the actual cost that users bear. Note: while the taxes themselves are functionally regressive, these proposals tend to be paired with a citizens dividend to offset the increased cost of goods and services and to ease the transition to less carbon intensive ways of living. The only people who will be negatively impacted would be those who already have excess wealth and use it in especially carbon-intensive ways.
  2. Relaxation of zoning and building regulations - aka, let people build things. Peoples need for full sized automobiles is driven largely by the fact that their homes are far from their work which is far from the grocery store which is far from their social spaces. This is not a solution which can be solved with infrastructure, as you geometrically cannot fit all the transportation infrastructure between these places in an efficient manner - you need to put these things closer together so that a person can, say, walk from home to a transit station, transit to work, transit to the grocery store, walk home with their groceries, then walk to their social activity. Part of this is ending single family residential zoning, and instead allowing mixed use in all areas, part is changing building requirements - like parking requirements and overly stringent aesthetic conditions, and part is reforming building codes to be more flexible and understandable (note - not in a slapdash DOGE capacity, but reviewed by multidisciplinary teams of experts, with an eye towards making things understandable enough that a fairly average DIYer could confidently do their own construction within the limits of the building code)
  3. Intelligent investments in infrastructure and transit. These should prioritize low cost, quick to implement changes in high impact areas - like replacing parking with bike lanes or closing off streets to cars and instead allowing only pedestrians, cyclists, and transit. The most important changes are to rehabilitate old downtowns which were originally pedestrian-friendly, since this will be the highest impact change. Changes should then radiate outwards from urban cores to facilitate movement around the city. In first-ring suburbs, initial big wins are things like implementing BRT lines with frequent schedules along arterials, protected bike lanes on larger neighborhood streets, public protected bike parking and pleasant pedestrian shelters at transit stops, and raised pedestrian crossings, speed bumps, and other traffic calming measures anywhere where cars are driving too fast. Of course, this should also be paired with a mandate to not accept any more sprawling suburban style development into the city’s land portfolio, since these developments are a drain on city resources and would simply need to be rehabilitated later. Also note that these changes to infrastructure and transit do not prioritize things like inter-city high speed rail, since as we have seen with these projects in the past, these rail lines end up underutilized as long as their destinations are not walkable. An inter-city BRT line can achieve 90% of the benefits of high-speed rail using existing busses and some paint on the highway. As a rule, grand, ribbon-cutting-worthy transit projects tend to end up as expensive boondoggles which take decades to complete and which are underutilized. Instead, the vast majority of infrastructure improvements should be driven by walking around in neighborhoods and asking “how can we make this more safe and pleasant for everyone?”

In this case, most gas stations would continue to function more or less as they currently do. Fewer people would make the switch to EVs, and would instead simply drive their cars less as they become less dependent on them. But due to lower demand for gas, some gas stations would slowly become financially non-viable, and would go out of business. This wouldn’t mean all of them would go out of business at once - instead it would mean that at an intersection with a gas station at each corner, 3 would go out of business and the best one would remain. In denser urban areas, many would likely divide the parcel t

ptc075@feddit.online on 05 Mar 19:09 next collapse

The gas stations around me are displacing fast food. If you need food for fast & cheap, you go to a gas station. I have a feeling this is intentional, they’re trying to secure a new business model for when/if we stop using gasoline.

Ziggurat@jlai.lu on 05 Mar 19:49 collapse

In many country, relatively few shop can be open 24/7 and gaz stations are one of them, so selling high margin groceries and boose helps a lot.

But realistically, people will need loading stations for electric car, and if the load time is 30minutes, you need a coffee shop to have people waiting

Griffus@lemmy.zip on 05 Mar 20:17 collapse

Alcohol at petrol stations dreamy Scandinavian drooling

Thorry@feddit.org on 05 Mar 19:53 next collapse

Around where I live gas stations in the traditional sense are getting rare. Most are just pumps and one or several pay stations. You drive up, scan your card or phone, select the product and the pump number. The pump activates and you can fill up. If you want you can go back to the pay station and ask for a receipt if you’d like.

The few manned pumps that still exist are often something else with a gas station attached. Like a large car wash, sandwich shop or convenience store. Especially the large convenience stores are useful, because it’s already a good destination people go to regularly. And one of the few places that have LPG, since those normally are required to be manned. Not that many people still drive LPG, given what a pain in the butt that is, but still.

Griffus@lemmy.zip on 05 Mar 20:13 next collapse

In Norway, the same petrol stations are still here, but with charging stations as well. So even if there are new places with solely electric charging next to Ikea or fast food shops, the regular petrol stations run as they always have.

Edit to add that some stations have transitioned to unmanned stations where you stop, tap your card and fill. Forgot that as I don’t drive unless I rent a car for special needs.

RBWells@lemmy.world on 06 Mar 00:05 next collapse

The WaWa gas station near me has more charging stations than gas pumps, and they are always full of cars charging.

And of course they sell beer and diet coke a cigarettes, coffee, snacks. The gas is just to get people in the door, and charging takes longer, I’m sure they’ll be fine.

Rozz@lemmy.sdf.org on 06 Mar 02:34 collapse

The smart ones

Cevilia@lemmy.blahaj.zone on 06 Mar 05:33 collapse

They’ll be replaced with rapid charging stations.

This is already happening. Not too far from where I live, right on a main road, a BP station closed down late last year and they’re in the process of replacing it with a 20-bay BP Pulse rapid charging station with an attached store and café.

They’re going to make a fucking killing. And not just because they charge almost £1 per kWh.