How come Israel don't use Mossad to take out all of the Hamas leadership similar to what they did after Munich? Would this not be better than bombing stuff into oblivion?
from Don_Dickle@lemmy.world to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 14 Sep 01:21
https://lemmy.world/post/19746279
from Don_Dickle@lemmy.world to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 14 Sep 01:21
https://lemmy.world/post/19746279
#nostupidquestions
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Almost like the goal isn’t taking out Hamas leadership. Hmmm…
Nor do they want to rescue the hostages. It’s all an excuse to carry out death. In Gaza and the West Bank.
Wrong question and framing.
Israel’s goal is not to get rid of Hamas or their leadership.
Their real goal has been to continue the genocide of the Palestinian people so as to take 100% control of the Palestinian land and to kickout the natives.
Because most of the Hamas leadership isn’t in gaza. They’re protected in other countries that are funding and arming Hamas.
Yea but that didn’t stop Mossad from assassinating the people who were responsible for Munich all over the globe.
They weren’t being protected there, though; they were just there
Not to forget people who had nothing to do with Munich.
Israel loves Hamas. Let’s them justify their persecution of the Palestinians and the ongoing genocide. They don’t want to end Hamas until after they end the Palestinians. That way they get more land to colonize.
Israel helped with Hamas funding for a while. They have always been useful to Israel.
timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-…
Edited for clarity.
That’s actually a myth. They didn’t “fund Hamas”, they contributed to a development fund that Hamas stole from.
“Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.”
Ok, not directly funded but they allowed the money to flow to them.
Israel held up their end of a negotiated ceasefire that included these terms. Hamas’ terms included ending attacks on Jews.
Did they?
Did Israel expect them to? Just to be clear - you are not talking to a Hamas sympathiser here. They are cunts, but apparently they are useful cunts for Israel, so they helped out with funding. What did Israel think they were going to spend those “suitcases of cash” on?
Did Israel expect their negotiating partner to hold up their end of a negotiated ceasefire? Yes, they absolutely expected that.
If you don’t hold that Hamas will keep its agreements then how can they be negotiated with?
Israel isn’t as stupid or naive as you seem to think. They have the best intelligence service in the world and usually know what’s going on. What did they think they were going to spend the cash on? Pokémon cards?
If everyone knows Hamas won’t keep an agreement then why is Israel subject to such pressure to reach an agreement with them?
I’m not asking whether Israel is stupid - I’m asking whether you are.
Not all all of Israel loves Hamas, obviously. There are huge protests against the genocide in Israel by people who very much see things clearly.
Netanyahu and his fascist crooks love Hamas.
Even according to Netanyahu’s own statements, the Israeli war aims are the complete destruction of hamas. That’s more than leaders. Before this began, estimates put the al-Qassam Brigades at 30-40k strong. So if we take Netanyahu at his word (which I don’t recommend) then that would be the minimum for killed/captured before he could declare victory.
A ton of the Hamas leadership have been assassinated since the war began, there’s always replacements though
I don’t think this one has a clear cut answer.
In other words, it’ll come down to opinions rather than facts or truths.
There’s at least three likely possibilities, in my opinion.
First is that hamas is decentralized well enough that taking out leadership only is kinda pointless.
Second, the goals of the current actions aren’t solely about hamas, and taking out leaders would weaken the goals as they appear.
Third, mossad may not be able to achieve the goal, and failing would be too risky considering how much pressure is already building against israel. If they try to assassinate people in other countries, and they fail, that’s going to make more enemies than they already have, despite those countries themselves already being less than friendly to Israel.
I suspect that the matter was considered, but discarded quickly. It just wouldn’t achieve anything useful for them, despite the purported goal of destroying hamas.
Now, there’s also the chances that the real goal is purely to destroy Palestine, and take full ownership of the land. That’s a distinct possibility, imo. If that’s the real underlying goal, doing anything to take down hamas before that’s achieved would not happen.
I don’t think that anyone can trust what a world leader engaged in a military action of any kind, so taking the stated goals as truth is a bad idea. But they could be, and if that’s the case, then using assassination as a tool would weaken their position. It’s kinda frowned on.
Further to that third point as well, there’s probably also a question simply of opportunity. You could take the Munich situation as evidence of capability, but it may also have been opportunity plus capability. Intelligence seems like it’s a pretty difficult game and perhaps the successes in operation bayonet had to do with fortunate and unlikely intelligence scoops that they have not luckedh upon this time around and can’t rely upon as a strategy. Also, while I don’t know much about the post-Munich assassinations, it sounds like they went on for over twenty years, didn’t really take out many of the actually important, directly involved individuals and a lot of the people they would have logically wanted to target successfully went in to hiding out of their reach so if the strategic goal is to behead the organisation that carried out attacks as a defensive strategy to weaken their capacity to do it again, 20 years just to take out relatively minor unimportant figures isn’t really going to work.
That said, it also looks, as many have stated, like “taking out Hamas” is more a convenient political smokescreen for a much more sinister goal so a very successful intelligence operation that rapidly took out all their leadership at once would actually run counter to their true objectives in this scenario.
You missed the key issue: Excuse for the extermination of Palestinians.
Very high risk, low reward
Because it's a genocide. The point isn't to just take out Hamas and say "mission accomplished", it's to take out the entirety of Palestine and say "we tried our best to save them". Hamas has to continue existing in order for Israel to keep justifying every extension to this war.
But then why commit any ground troops at all?
If they just wanted to wipe out Gaza they’d have done it on Oct 8th. Could hardly take more than an hour.
If I had to guess, I'd say funding and plausible deniability are the big reasons. The longer the war wages on, the longer the US and other allies keep sending them money and weapons. And killing them off slowly makes it easier to argue to the ICC that you weren't trying to commit genocide, it just kinda happened as an oh-so-unfortunate side-effect of defending themselves.
What “plausible deniability”?
If they spent two hours killing everyone in Gaza, it’d be over before anyone could do anything about it. And then what? Nobody’s going to war with a nuclear power in revenge for Gazans. Bibi just stops visiting Brooklyn and nothing happens.
But they don’t do that. The Jews of Israel bleed and die to save the lives of Gazans who hate them. I wouldn’t, but they do.
It took the Germans a while to liquidate the Warsaw Ghetto. The Zionists have killed 200,000 so far (according to the Lancet) and rendered all of Gaza uninhabitable.
Only because they used starvation instead of air power. Israel sends 3500 calories to Gaza per Gazan per day; that’s more food per day than a person eats in Luxembourg.
You surely mean “according to a letter someone sent to the Lancet, using a methodology that counts currently-living persons as “fatalities.”
Rockets and bullets don’t count.
Apparently food doesn’t either, if Jews send it
I refuse to allow Zionists to hijack the Jewish faith for their distorted agenda. Stop straw manning the argument.
You’re the one that brought this topic up, though. Like we’re talking about food aid in Gaza because you wanted to.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/f436523a-9095-4344-a2da-1e427ff5d781.jpeg">
If you believe that then I’ve got a pile of international NGO and UN reports you need to read.
I mean, no, you don’t.
Because they just might actually find some of the hostages. Also it’s a great way to corral people and aid, and keep them separate.
But they aren’t separate. Gaza is receiving so much aid from Israel they say they’re running out of places to put it.
Yup all of the international reports from NGOs and the UN are wrong. Israel says so, so it must be true right?
Yes! They deliberately omit most of the food aid entering Gaza, to deliberately undercount calories per person. That’s not according to Israel; that’s according to the UN itself.
That’s why the UN has predicted “mass famine” but it never actually happens.
Are you talking about where they don’t count the food Isrealis turn around?
And it very much is happening. It’s happening right now and has been happening for months now.
No, the food that goes in. The UN analysis deliberately excludes up to 70% of the food aid entering over the Israeli border into Gaza. All told it’s 3500 calories per Gazan per day, since Oct 7 - well shy of “famine”, entirely the opposite.
These figures have been verified by independent observers and by the UN.
Lmao yeah no. I call bullshit.
Except I have the receipts:
x.com/aizenberg55/status/1802704210485473414?s=46
x.com/aizenberg55/status/1802704212461052162?s=46
timesofisrael.com/new-study-finds-food-supply-to-…
You’ve been lied to. There is no famine in Gaza, which is why the Ministry of Health there records almost zero malnutrition deaths.
More people died of malnutrition in Los Angeles since Oct 7 than died of it in Gaza.
This is exactly what I said. They are counting the trucks that pass the border. And not accounting for trucks that are turned around inside Gaza by Israeli troops. And your news story study is from the Israeli government. Who is about as trustworthy as a murderer on trial.
Oh and the FRC take on the IPC report. But your buddy on twitter was hoping nobody would realize that was just FRC’s response to one report from FEWS. I’m not at all shocked they would present that as evidence of the whole instead of what it actually was. On the IPC website you will find that the people in Gaza have not been getting enough calories since February. Which is probably why countries have been air dropping food.
IPC report link
That’s zero trucks. IDF troops can’t and don’t make aid trucks turn around once they’re in Gaza. They don’t get the chance - the aid warehouses are all just beyond the border crossing.
If an aid truck is turned back, due to the unlawful presence of dual-use items in the shipment, then it is turned around at the checkpoint, not in Gaza, and isn’t included here.
I disagree with that. The Israeli government is more credible than the Hamas government of Gaza, and in any case here’s another study proving that the UN’s conclusion of famine is based on ignoring huge amounts of aid:
papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=48516…
But they have been - the IPC study was totally refuted by the UN’s own research. The FRC’s conclusions aren’t supported by even their own data.
Oh really? The UN’s own research? I’m sure you’ll be willing to share?
Something more than an abstract accusing UNRWA of being unable to count because of Israeli actions?
And finally, no. You keep dodging around it but we’re talking about checkpoints inside Gaza preventing aid from being distributed.
God this is tiring. This shit is headline news for months, nearly a year now. With report after report telling the same story. And yet Zionists are always around to tell us how this one crumb of information disproves it all if you just look at it sideways and don’t actually read what it says.
I am sharing it? In every post? I can’t make you read it, though.
But there are no IDF checkpoints preventing aid from being distributed. The IDF isn’t responsible for the distribution of aid; UNRWA is. And in any case that’s a new accusation; you had previously said they cut off the aid and now you’re saying they get the aid, they just can’t get it to anybody. But the logistical failures of the UNRWA aren’t anyone’s fault but theirs.
But that’s false. There isn’t “report after report” telling the same story. There’s one FRC report, with conclusions all other groups say aren’t supported by their own data, saying that famine has been “severe and imminent” even as Gazans continue to enjoy widespread access to abundant food.
You literally have nothing else, while I’ve produced source after source.
So funny story. I’ve gone to every link you’ve provided to me and none of them were a UN study.
Also a funny story, one link I provided you had multiple IPC reports. So that tells me you aren’t reading my links, and that your claim of “one FRC report” is laughable.
In the same lane, you also obviously didn’t click though to the news article I provided in the last comment. Or you wouldn’t have said something so demonstrably false about Gazan aid being turned around. Also, again, if you’re going to comment in so many places, re-read the thread real quick to make sure you haven’t forgotten something important. Like the fact that I mentioned that in the last 3 comments. It’s not in fact something new.
Finally, accusing UNRWA of incompetence while blocking and attacking their aid convoys has been an Israeli propaganda line for most of the past ~10 months. The fact you’ve gone in on that twice now is enough for me to just leave this here. You’re not here in good faith.
Because you won’t read past the abstract. I can only give you the sources; I can’t make you read them.
You didn’t provide a link.
It’s not a news story about aid being turned around in Gaza. It’s a news story about aid being turned around at the Gazan border because it contains impermissible dual-use items that are forbidden in aid shipments to Gaza.
You’re correct that it’s propaganda but you’ve misattributed it. It’s Hamas propaganda.
If the paper says something the abstract doesn’t then it’s a bad paper or a bad abstract.
I absolutely provided a link, it’s even labeled, “IPC Report Link”.
And no. The news article is very clear these checkpoints are inside Gaza, not at the border. Which again is there for you and everyone else to read.
And lmao you think Hamas is what? Paying the UN to say they’ve been attacked by Israel? You know what don’t answer that. I’m not sure why I even replied to this post since it’s very obvious your only angle here is to deny all evidence of Israel’s crimes. No matter how damning.
The whole point of an abstract is that it’s not the entire paper, stupid
It’s a summation, science isn’t into clickbait.
I continue to recommend that you read the paper past the abstract, hope that helps
I continue to live in hope you will realize victim blaming the people you blow up isn’t an argument.
Does war exist, in your view? Or is it always a case of the winner murdering the loser, unjustifiably?
There is a large difference between war and genocide. The last group to say you couldn’t have a war without genocide was the Serbians.
But that’s what I’m asking you. Can one side achieve overwhelming victory, in your view, without you calling it a “genocide”?
No, right?
Hold on let me go check history, yup, yup, history says that it’s very possible. Which makes one wonder, why is Israel doing this?
Doing what? Fighting a war they didn’t start?
Source: trust me bro
timesofisrael.com/new-study-finds-food-supply-to-…
bellingcat.com/…/satellite-imagery-shows-vast-des…
Relevance?
Surely you cannot be serious
I am serious, and don’t call me Shirley
I’d sooner call you an Israëli shill, Shirley.
His source is the Israeli government.
My guess is that assassination isn’t as easy as it is made out to be in the movies. The CIA, the best funded intelligence agency in the world, tried to take out Castro hundreds of times and failed. They couldn’t find Osama for a decade, either, and even then the US used Seals, not the CIA. Sure, killing some rando is probably easy, but not a government leader who is actively avoiding assassination, as I’m sure Hamas leaders are doing.
an even better question is why didn’t Bibi heed any of the warnings about the imminent operation.
Israel isn’t “bombing stuff into oblivion”, they’re doing two things:
Attacking subterranean structures with ground-penetrating (aka “2000 pound”) bombs, and
Clearing a one-mile cordon along the border of structures so that Hamas attackers can’t do what they did on Oct 8, which was train and amass along the border fence in secret, hidden among the buildings and blended in with the populace.
If your army has to cross a mile of open ground to attack your fence, it’s a lot more obvious when they start. One of the reasons they succeeded in “surprising” Israel is that they just were there right by the fence, for years, until it seemed “normal.” With the buildings gone, they can’t do that.
Anyone who is sane is like fuck Israel fuck Hamas. We need those buildings. Stop you fucking idiots.
gets assasinated
Gaza doesn’t deserve buildings after Oct 7, but the Jews of Israel offer more grace to their enemies than I would
This conflict did not start in 2023. It’s a bit older.
Sure; it started hundreds of years ago via Arab colonization of Judea and Samaria.
Or did you intend history to only begin once the Jews hit back?
What, you mean like in the Bronze age? Are you seriously that dense?
The Jews are not all that great. The Jewish settlers in Israel have always been out to kill. Conversely, the Palestinians have always been pissed at the so-called Zionists who just started showing up and claiming land. Actually Settlers from Israel keep doing that illegal shot.
How could the Jews “show up” in a place they always lived?
You’re truly a moron.
Who has always lived anywhere? What entitles anyone to anything?
What entitles Palestinians to land they abandoned or never owned at all? What makes a Palestinian a “refugee” of a place they’ve never lived in their whole life?
Err… did I misunderstood the question, or do (nearly?) all commenters have no idea what they’re talking about?
You’re asking why Israel doesn’t assassinate Hamas’s top leaders, right? Or did I misunderstood and you asking Israel doesn’t ONLY assassinate Hamas’s top leaders? Or are you asking why Israel responded differently to Munich?
To answer the first question, well… they are. Hamas’s top leaders according to BBC are:
Also, keep in mind that the response to the Munich massacre took about 2 decades.
As to why Israel dosen’t ONLY assassinate Hamas’s leadership, the simple answer is that it won’t solve anything. It won’t bring the hostages home (It will probably have opposite effect as a. it will leave Israel without a centralized entity with whom to negotiate and b. Sinwar might be using hostages as human shields, which also might explain why he’s still alive), and it will still leave Israel with a terrorist entity next door. The official Israeli version is that the assassinations, among other things, serve as leverage on Hamas leaders to secure a deal. Obviously, this is only effective if there is some leadership left.
If you’re asking why Israel responded differently to Munich, it’s because the situation is totally different in numerous ways. But the question itself is also factually wrong - Israel didn’t only assassinate the leaders of Black September. Firstly, the goal was to “assassinate individuals they accused of being involved in the 1972 Munich massacre”, not just the leaders. Not only that, Israel also responded with raids and bombings (for example: 1973 Israeli raid in Lebanon).
None of what’s happening squares as a reasonable response. Munich is some horrible memory. Maybe someone else is obsessed with it, but the genocide occurring now is the concern.
OK, I’ll just answer plainly, and if I misunderstood you, feel free to correct me:
OP asked about the difference in Israel’s response to Munich and Gaza. I tried answering that to the best of my ability, as it seems most other answers didn’t correct the implicit assumption that Israel doesn’t go after Hamas’s leaders. If you think someone is “obsessed with Munich”, you should respond to the OP.
However, I get the feeling some people here took the question as “let’s use this question to further convince ourselves/others that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza”. In this context, your reply makes more sense when it’s addressed to me.
Thank you! Mossad did kill Ismail haniyeh
web.archive.org/…/the-full-inside-story-of-how-is…
Interestingly this article is no longer available idk why , archive.org works tho
The intention is to “liquidate” Gaza like the Wermacht liquidated the Warsaw ghetto in 1943. It is an annihilation. Hamas and the hostages are just the excuse.
Zionists did the same thing to the rest of Palestine in the Nakba of 1948. Israelis now call this the Gaza Nakba.
Because Israel’s goal is the kill all Palestinians. According to the 3000 year old fairy tales they believe in, anyone who is not an Israelite must be killed driven off from their promised land.
Israel is a religious theocracy run by crazy genodical maniacs.
Currently it is very heavily run by the genocidal religious nuts. Netanyahu needs them to stay in power, which is the part that he cares about. The only part he cares about probably, though I doubt he cares about Palestinians or even believes that they’re human. Like most religions, their divided opinions. But since the nutjobs have the keys right now, Netanyahu will do absolutely everything they demand if it keeps him from being ousted (and likely arrested).
the genocide did not start with netanyahu. take this example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre
The seeds were planted in early 20th century. Zionist started migrating, armed up and kicked off the entire genocide campaign. 100 years later I think we finally got over the "she said, he said" stage of the debate...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
Because the genocide is the goal.
The goal is not to eliminate Hamas. The goal is to depopulate Gaza.
Look at what they do, no need to listen to what they say.
Israel is a bad faith actor.
The goal is not to destroy Hamas. This is a ridiculous excuse. Their true objective is to remove all the Palestinians from their homes, so they can occupy the land. Israel is a fascist, imperialist actor that tries to manipulate everyone through propaganda distributed through international media.
Because the genocide is the point.
Israeli leadership have admitted to funding Hamas’ displacement of the secular moderates with predictable results - the only credible explanation for this is that it was to manufacture the pretext for their current actions.
#justautocraticfascistethnostatethings
There’s some valuable real estate in those hills.
The “war” in Gaza isn’t meant to take out Hamas. It’s meant to eradicate the Palestinian people.
Ok I have seen many replies saying the same thing but the question I got if say they take Gaza what are they going to do with it? Just focus on the West Bank?
Presumably. They want to kill all Palestinians or drive them out. Either is acceptable to them.
Occupy it? Same thing they’ve been doing to all Palestinian land, piece by piece since the 40s
Yes, hammas leaders over the years were assasinated by mossad. Including just a month or so ago. Top leader Ismayil Haniya was assasinated by the mossad on Iranian Soil. Gaza is a whole different story. Though mossad is involved there as well. You cannot just go to Gaza and pretend you are gazan. There are so small subtleties as to be “gazan” that can be picked right away by any local. Its a small community where everyone knows everyone.
Mistaarvim, which is a special unit of the police in Israel specializes on exactly that. Pretending to be arab gazan or arab west bank and conduct operations there. And they have presumably rescued hostages and assassinated specific hammas people. You might as well consider them a specialized unit of the mossad if you will.
Waging war on Gaza is to a. Put pressure to rescue the hostages and b. To eradicate Hammas on its people, infrastructure and weapons. So that OCT 7 will never happen again. You cant use Mossad operations to do that. You do that with actual war and shit.
All that “the war is to kill all Palestinians” is BS. This war will stop the moment hostages are released and hammas surrenders. Israel isnt putting 10% of its capabilities in was into Gaza. They could eradicate Gaza in just a few days if they wanted.
Update tou your question, though this targeted towards Hezbullah and not Hammas: Bro they just took ~2000 of them with pinpoint accuracy in one go!