Why I Haven't Seen Any Trump Supporters In Fediverse (Lemmy and Mastodon)?
from occultist8128@infosec.pub to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 01 Sep 14:27
https://infosec.pub/post/16975643
from occultist8128@infosec.pub to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 01 Sep 14:27
https://infosec.pub/post/16975643
as a person that came from the 3rd world country and new in fediverse environment, i genuinely would like to know about this.
edit: thanks for the replies! sorry, i literally don’t know the reason since i’m not a western lol. twitter/x is too biased especially when musk openly supports trump so i came here and seeing fediverse is mostly are harris or biden (when he’s still up for the candidate) supporters. don’t know about reddit tho, i only use reddit as a forum for linux and programming stuff.
#nostupidquestions
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All I know is that I use socials to get away from political bullshit
me too, tbh.
They’re here, anything pro trump is often downvoted, and most things heavily critical of the Dems are also often downvoted.
For better or worse, there’s not a lot of right wing stuff that makes it into the positive on votes.
If you sort new, you’ll see it pop up from time to time.
It’s hard to tell sometimes, but it certainly feels like some political regimes are trying out dropping propaganda here or there into the conversation. I’m sure most of it is from genuine users, but there are some comments that just look like they’re here to stir up dissent.
That is for the better.
It would be nice to have some opposition, though. Even if most “conservative” media right now is little more than xenophobia, or cult worship, there do exist sound arguments against the typical internet-left positions. I don’t have a solid enough read on what comes through New in the fediverse to say whether any of that is being submitted and just downvoted off everyone’s feeds, or if all that’s being submitted is the average conservative media junk.
Still, political spaces without opposition/diversity invariably degenerate into purity contests, and circle jerking.
No, there’s really not sound arguments against them. That’s why nobody ever hears sound arguments.
Stop assuming ghosts exist because you saw a picture frame on the wall move when a large truck went by…
That’s like saying there are no trade-offs to any policies; it’s simply not true. I’m as left as they come (not American left, British), but failing to admit there are flaws or sound arguments against left-wing ideas is very ignorant.
Nonono, you misunderstand the political landscape.
Something having downsides IS NOT the same as the claims being made against things. If you think conservative politicians are arguing in good faith, you simply haven’t been listening.
There really are not sound (conservative) arguments against them.
If you do not agree, you do not know enough. Period.
Lol. Your arrogance is astounding.
Your pride in ignorance is pathetic. Perfect example of why public education is critically important to fund, and to fund properly.
Conservstives cling on to old, stupid ideas that are in the process of being proven wrong. Again and again and again and again.
But you go ahead and defend that hill that brought us golden gems of wisdom like “Trickle Down Economics”, private, for-profit prisons, and a lack of regulation so companies can dump what ever they want in to rivers and the ocean…
No no, you said period, the end, so stop. I don’t need anything further from you.
Not what I said, is it? The person said there are no arguments against “the typical internet-left positions”; which I disagree with. If such positions were infallible, they would always succeed. All policies have trade-offs.
I didn’t mention “right … sound points” or their representation.
Actually it’s my b as i confused another posters point up the chain for yours, sorry
All good, fellow RATM fan.
(that was not a joke…but then I just went to play it and found it’s actually a Springsteen song; TIL)
Conservative media comes through plenty in the form of business, tech and mainstream media sources 🙄
Don’t confuse the fact that Republicans have become degenerate doesn’t mean their ideas are the basis of conservative ideology.
You occasionally run into some disagreeable but unobjectionable “traditional” conservative opinions, usually around economics and the governments role in it, but trump shit isn’t that. We can be friends if you think a market solution is viable or better than an entitlement program. We can’t be friends if you think a significant portion of your fellow citizens are vermin or that we should just let terrible problems continue or get worse.
The window has just shifted so far that literal objective depictions of reality are described as “left”.
However Lots of places love to call those pointing out flaws in democratic policies trump supporters unfortunately
The difference to Reddit et al is that votes don’t generally matter a huge lot in here. And you can easily hide them.
I think a lot of the people on Lemmy came from Reddit when the whole API thing happened. It was pretty much a boycott. I assume most of the people who cared enough about that to leave were mostly left-leaning.
That’s why I’m here, at least.
Edit: not sure about Mastodon, though
Reddit chased away the Trump supporters before the API thing happened. When it did, some people like me who are classic-liberals and libertarians also came over. After all, Lemmy is an inherently libertarian platform even when its users aren’t. When I express a political opinion objectionable to leftists, I get several times more down-votes than up-votes but I do get up-votes.
This is an interesting perception, because if you mean American libertarianism then this doesn’t really make sense. Lemmy’s creators are communist and intended it to be anti-corporate. It is designed in a decentralized manner specifically to avoid situations where companies can own and profit from it.
The kinds of platforms I would see as being libertarian (in the American sense) are the diaspora of privately owned social media companies.
American libertarian just means embarrassed Republican nowadays.
Not all libertarian-leaning people are on board with corporatism; IMO freedom is for people, not businesses.
I respect it but if you’re American and trying to take the word back, I’m afraid you’re a little too late. It’s a political party now and they’re all-in on corporatism.
I’m sure even non-Ameticans can tell the difference between an uppercase and lowercase letter L.
Almost no one pays attention to the big-L Libertarian party. Ron and Rand Paul got some attention on the national level but they weren’t even members of the party (while in office) and the party itself has never been politically relevant.
I think these days the word is associated more with Silicon Valley techno-libertarians (a group I identify with). These guys favor the free market over government regulation (which isn’t really relevant to Reddit) but they’re also very sympathetic to free-as-in-speech open-source software.
I hate to break it to you but these are definitely the worst ones. It’s what the Gadsden flag waving canned food and gun hording preppers turn into if they end up with tons of money. These are the morons that build bunkers in New Zealand and try to brainstorm ways to keep their post-apocalyptic security guards loyal to them with remote-detonated bomb collars or holding their families hostage.
The preppers are different because they want to be left completely alone. They don’t see any acceptable role for government in their lives. I don’t think they’re being realistic. Freedom isn’t free, as the saying goes.
The techno-libertarians are much more engaged with society and do see a role for government, even if that role is small and (at least according to some of them) bizarre by conventional standards. I’m not going to deny that the bunker-building types are involved in the movement. I often don’t agree with the weirder people involved, but I like that techno-libertarians are willing to hear people out and judge their ideas rationally rather than shunning them for being weird.
(I think I might have a bunker built if I was rich enough. The expected utility of it is higher than that of, say, a second yacht. Human guards are a dead end. Probably the best thing that can be done if civilization totally collapses and you manage to get inside is blowing up the entrance so that anyone who wants to get to you has to move a thousand tons of rock first. You probably won’t ever get to leave, but it’s better than what would happen if you did.)
The bunker-building impulse demonstrates what’s wrong with libertarianism very well, an irrational attachment to individualism in all things. Libertarians refuse to acknowledge the positive role of nature and community in their lives, instead focusing on the negatives and spending all their energy fighting the very thing that keeps them alive. How long do you think you can last alone in a bunker without any support?
I acknowledge that almost all people (including me) couldn’t survive on their own. Even those that could survive (let’s say that their bunkers have robust long-term life-support systems) still couldn’t live completely alone for many years without going crazy.
I don’t reject relationships with other people, but I think they should be between independent individuals who associate with each other only because they both want to. (Violating this principle is sometimes necessary but always undesirable.) You appear to think otherwise, and I suppose that’s a fundamental value difference that can’t be resolved through debate. I do want to point out that if I were in charge, my rules wouldn’t prevent you from voluntarily living life your way. I suspect that your rules wouldn’t leave me the analogous option.
Edit: I suppose that I do feel like I have some obligations to my family members despite being related to them through no choice of my own. Is that how collectivists feel (to a lesser extent) about everyone else?
I also believe in autonomy, but everyone has relationships with people they did not choose to associate with due entirely to unavoidable circumstance. This doesn’t just apply to family, but to everyone on earth to varying degrees. You are just as dependent on community as you are dependent on nature, a complex web of relationships of which you are a small part. Refusing to acknowledge that these relationships exist because you did not choose to enter them is childish, and it enables you to behave selfishly because you do not take responsibility for your externalities. This is the same pitfall that capitalists dive into to justify pollution and all manner of horrible things.
Maybe you should look into why we have those regulations. - an actual libertarian
What makes you an actual libertarian?
What makes you think you are? Identifying with the sort of people the person who coined the term and defined it. Would have rightfully seen as their enemy.
We have the regulations for a reason. We’ve already tried the less/no regulation thing. That’s the reason we have the regulations. Granted the regulations are ineffective. However the people in charge and Society at Large will not do what it takes to solve the problem outside of regulations. Things like ending generational wealth that almost every Tech bro to an individual benefited heavily from. Or ending they’re very exploitative business practices.
I’d be fine with these regulations ending. So long as Society was ready to replace their more neutered threat with something more meaningful. Like the guillotine. Hell who knows. A quick test run on Bezos, Thiel, and Musk might get a decent portion of them to straighten up and fly right. But as long as Society at large worships the new bourgeoisie. Removing regulations from them will only speed up the run-up to another bloody violent revolution. Which I think most people don’t want.
The idea of federation isn’t communist
The idea of preventing private ownership and rent-seeking of communication platforms is.
If it’s libertarian it’s libertarian socialist. There’s no property or capital on here, posts get boosted by collective voting, not based off your following or account. There’s not even an idea of karma, your account means basically nothing here. A capitalist libertarian social media would be something like nostr or what bluesky is claiming it’ll eventually do where you completely own your account and your following and you can use that social capital as you wish.
I think this is an example of where the left-right axis isn’t the most adequate way of viewing things. The Fediverse in general is anti-authoritarian. You can be all the way from a far-left anarchist to a far-right anarcho-capitalist and still be anti-authoritarian, just like both tankies and nazis are authoritarian.
My experience as well. Though I avoid political munis these days.
As a libertarian liberal, what communities would you recommend? I’m sad there’s not a more active free speech community on this platform. The reddit one is such a gross conservative circle jerk rn.
I don’t have anything to suggest on Lemmy. There’s so little activity that I participate in every community where I see an interesting post, except for those communities which are specifically for people with some particular set of beliefs which I don’t share.
If you’re looking beyond Lemmy, there are are the comment sections of the SlateStarCodex/AstralCodexTen blog and the blogs it links to as well as some associated forums and subreddits. You’ll find plenty of liberal libertarians and the comments tend to be polite and high-effort, but keep in mind that a dedication to free speech means that people with opinions that can’t be discussed elsewhere participate too. It’s a bit much for me sometimes.
I used to call myself a “left libertarian” but to be frank, after learning more I’ve found that “anarchist” fits far better. And there’s a lot of interesting content out there that I enjoy. I’m not sure who all .world has defederated, but the solar punk instance is always great, our mods are great (Midwest social), some people may find them abrasive, but those are people who maybe don’t understand that when you play in someone else’s home, you play by their rules.
Also: blahaj, beehaw, and even hexbear is usually entertaining, even if I have some disagreements with them.
The point is, there’s a lot out there, depending on who you’re federating with.
The devs are Communists and created Lemmy along Communist lines and principles. Libertarians can also agree with Lemmy’s structure though.
I left Reddit because of the pro-genocide mods
They’re here, you can find them if you look in the right places - however, most fediverse admins are technically apt and left leaning so Trump bullshit often gets folks banned and, when it doesn’t, they usually get a very negative response.
There’s only one way you can support Trump today.
You either refuse to acknowledge all the terrible things he’s done, or you approve of the things he’s done.
People who refuse to acknowledge, are going to look at all the “fake news” on this site about His Oranginess, and quickly decide that it’s nothing but propaganda and go somewhere “more reliable”.
Those who agree, stick around a little longer. They will argue and defend the horrible things, because they think there are more like them that will come out and back them up as a fellow defender of
racismmisogynyhomophobia“Good old family values”. But they will be downvoted to oblivion and have trouble finding a friendly voice. Eventually, they too will go where they can have a more comfortable discussion with people who are as terrible as they are.And ironically enough, if you went to Truth Social, and asked why there weren’t more Biden/Harris supporters there, they’d give you the exact same answer in reverse.
This is two ways. You literally said either / or.
The brackets were implied by OP.
I.e. “one way: (be ignorant || approve)”.
No! I have been defeated!! I now have no choice but to vote Republican! Damn you, Orbituary! <Fist waves dramatically>
How did you get that from my comment?
It’s all good. Just having fun.
Our three weapons are…
We had an opportunity years ago to fix this problem. Long before Trump ever showed up on the scenes as a political individual. We needed in schools to be teaching how to pick out real news from fake news. How to pick out fact from propaganda. Hell out to read a newspaper properly.
How to logically pick a part in argument. We chose not to. We as a society, decided not to put our money towards that. Now people read a headline, and based purely on the headline, make a statement such as “throw the guy in jail for the rest of his life for that one “.
I sat on a jury trial. It was a murder trial, if you went purely by what was in the local newspaper, you would’ve seriously questioned why the guy didn’t just take a plea deal. If you sat in that courtroom day after day, listening to it you’d realize this is a lot tougher than what you realize. we had a hard time figuring out if the guy was even in town at the time of the murder.
But for those that weren’t involved in the trial, they’re convinced the guy belonged in jail for the rest of his life. Because people didn’t sit down and really read the newspaper and ask important questions. Because we don’t hold our journalists to a higher standard and force them to give all the information And tell both sides of the story.
I have no idea how you solve the problem anymore. Because at this point, even if you tell the complete truth about any given politician, no one‘s going to believe what they’re reading anymore because there’s another so-called journalist out there saying the exact opposite and people say well I don’t know what to believe then. And can’t figure out how to critically think about this and ask questions.
Here in Lemmy we are guilty of the same sort of thing, same as over at truth social same as over at Twitter same as over Facebook.
As a society, I’m sorry for the language here, we are well and truly fucked.
I truly don’t know what the answer is.
Also sidenote 10 bucks says somebody comes back with a stupid comment of well since you don’t know what the answer is obviously you’re just saying that we shouldn’t do anything and just give up.
Obviously there are issues with education in this country but it’s always an easy scapegoat for these kinds of issues. Plenty of states have skills like this in their common core, I would venture to say you’re incorrect on that point.
Fair enough I graduated in the early 90s at that time we didn’t have it. At least not at the level that I felt that we should’ve. If I’m wrong on that, then I apologize.
No worries, you just hear a lot of misguided criticisms of the education system a lot of which are based on anecdotal experiences. I wish everyone would keep tabs on what kids are learning and have a more hands on approach to curricula.
So what you are saying is I should be volunteering for the geography classes to help reinforce the flat earth ideals? 😁
Oh fucking christ, a flat-earther. You people are even worse than the fucking round-earther scum on this platform.
I swear you people will never accept a velociraptor-shaped earth, prolly cuz your brains just aren’t big enough to process the geometry.
Edit: I really hoped the /s would not be necessary…
Did you miss the incredibly obvious joke?
Dude, I suggested the earth was shaped like a velociraptor.
No, I didn’t miss the joke
Edit: Did YOU miss MY incredibly obvious joke? xD
Neglecting public education is really going to keep biting us in the ass.
Something like half of US adults can’t read at a sixth grade level.
If we took some of the idiotic venture capitalist “it’s cat gifs on the block chain” nonsense and put it into education and infrastructure, we’d be so much better off.
I don’t really know how to get from here to there, either. Give me magic powers to Thanos snap away some people, maybe?
If you’ve never watched the movie 12 Angry Men, do yourself a favor and watch it. You are going to love it and it has everything to do with your comment.
Thanks for the recommendation
Reverse cargo cult.
Not sure who down voted you. Or even why
They generally get defederated from the major instances.
The ones I know are full of racist memes and incel comments, so...
if only we could defederate them from the USA.
They tried that once themselves, and would go back to their old ways if they could.
I have seen the one or the other, but they were immediately down voted into oblivion.
sad to be trump supporter here tho lol
Its sad to be a trump supporter everywhere.
I think the hard-right people have mostly self-exiled to their own echo chambers like truth.social and other places that are Donald-used-and-approved. I think he’s also active on Twitter again now that Musk has destroyed all content moderation on the platform. They follow their great leader and unless and until he starts posting his demagoguery on Lemmy they have no interest and no reason to come here.
They absolutely exist. But in general, I think most people here are informed and choose a wide variety of information to consume. That is exactly the opposite of most Trump supporters.
!conservative@lemm.ee ?
Lemmy is full of communists/socialists - this is an opposite side of political spectrum
Is it? I’ve only seen a lot of centrist/centre-right Democrats and people who align with them.
Well you’re on .world which is more like that. And also .world defederated some quite large leftist instances
Which ones?
Lemmygrad.ml and Hexbear.net
Lemmy.world only seems to want those types of users
Lemmy.world is defederated from the 2 most active Communist instances, so you don’t see them.
Socialist here! Lemmy is much more welcoming than Reddit.
Why join Lemmy.world as a Socialist? There’s a lot less Socialist content to interact with that way
Well I didn’t join Lemmy just to do Socialist stuff. I just happen to be a socialist, and I joined Lemmy. What instance to you recommend?
The 3 biggest Socialist-friendly instances are Lemmy.ml (FOSS and Privacy focused but maintained by Communists), and the 2 dedicated Communist instances, Lemmygrad.ml and Hexbear.net.
If you want to see as much content as possible, liberal or otherwise, Lemmy.ml will let you see it. Lemmy.ml doesn’t block Hexbear or Lemmygrad, so you can interact with those communities while retaining access to Lemmy.ca and Lemmy.world.
If you are a dedicated Marxist-Leninist, Lemmygrad takes itself “seriously,” though it’s the smallest of the 3.
If you’re generally a Socialist, Hexbear is a Left-Unity instance made up of Communists and Anarchists, is by far the most active leftist instance, and also the most self-sustainable thanks to its large and active userbase. Plus, it’s less serious.
TL;DR based on what you’ve said, either Lemmy.ml or Hexbear.net, the former if you want to retain access to Lemmy.ca and Lemmy.world while gaining access to Hexbear and Lemmygrad, the latter if you want a much more active community than Lemmy.ml federated with most instances, with the exclusion of Lemmy.world and Lemmy.ca
Thank you! This is great information!
They don’t want any outside voices in their echo chamber
Yeah conservatives even more militant about excluding people lol
Ban hammer used way more often on alt right communities. fucking snow flakes haha
Lemmy and Maatodon clearly accept left-wing values more than right-wing
There are/were some users and communities… a couple of Lemmy examples I remember…
Wolfballs was a conservative troll Lemmy server that was quickly defederated by major servers for their antics. They shut they server down after some years, way before Lemmy got to the size it is now.
Old_Geezer (@marathon@lemmy.ca) was a prolific poster and was a long time Lemmy member on Lemmy.ca, had some decent takes, but modded a geopolitics community where daily he posted the right-wing version of Russian propaganda, banning anyone that posted stuff there that went against that narrative. About 3 months ago, he was getting tired of the community pushback, eventually got banned by admins for his moderating behaviour.
!conservative@lemm.ee is an example of an active conservative community on Lemmy. You can see there is one regular poster and nearly all the posts are net downvoted. I request people don’t go there just for the purpose of picking a fight.
Most community mods and site admins don’t proactively remove conservative opinions as long as they aren’t personal attacks or trolling, and that they’re not being xenophobic in a community that’s meant to have safe discussion for a group (e.g. anti-trans rhetoric in a trans-oriented community). However conservative opinions do get downvoted heavily by users, occasionally getting reported which sometimes leads to comment removals and bans. So it can be tiring to keep participating in a generally left-leaning network that rejects or is hostile to them.
Downvoting is peoples choice but yeah banning people or removing comments because you don't like their vibe is kinda counter productive to growing a platform for everybody.
We are literally filtering out people at the start. Not smart.
Generally that’s how it goes on Lemmy, I find a difference with Reddit is that I see way more -20 or lower comments that have really stupid and disagreeable takes but they’re there for everyone to see instead of getting removed.
The thing is that each server has a different operating philosophy and that’s another strength. Some are more laissez-faire and allow more speech freedom, others are strict either on vibes or on certain topics. Slrpnk is trying out a moderation bot that spots users with regular patterns of downvoted submissions on a community with automatic temp bans, which is interesting to see the variety of tolerance.
The thing is that sometimes you have to filter out the jerks… or else the jerks will be all you have left. Growth is not the only thing you need to foster a healthy online community. You need values that make people want to be there. That’s why the variety of enforcement styles, while it can create echo chambers, it also shows the Fediverse’s strengths.
In addition to the other points made, not nearly as many people use Lemmy so it’s not as much of a target for bots.
The alt-right/Trump content on sites like Reddit and Twitter is amplified out of proportion by bots.
Well Truth Social is running off Mastodon so they are kind of here. Just invisible (I don't tihnk truth social is federated with anything). When I was on Kbin I at least saw quite a few conseravatives. Can't really speak to this instance since on my end it all just appears as the same.
There is !conservative@lemm.ee. I don’t visit that community but I assume they are supporters.
Its like on "conservative" mod shilling genertic GOP talking points with cherry picked facts and dozens of demoractic shills shilling their brain dead takes.
Republican ideology has no under pinnings beyond fuck poor for the benefit of the rich.
Ask these conservatives about maternity leave and want them get bent out of shape explaining away why we can't just have it 🤡
Reddit’s early days were also far more left leaning then they eventually became.
When you have a small niche of nerds who enjoy discussing topics and ideas, then far right wing points will get downvoted to hell because they are, quite frankly, dumb, divorced from logic and the real world, and don’t stand up to actual critical scrutiny.
Reddit got more right leaning as it grew and expanded into the general population and more dummies started upvoting dumb posts, then got more right leaning when right wing political orgs took notice and started trying to influence it, and now seems even more right leaning because they’ve changed their algorithms to prioritize controversial comments and posts that get people angry because it boosts engagement.
While very true, dont discount apathy and lurking. I may have made 15-20 comments on reddit for tge 10+ yrs I was on the platform. There were so many ppl 1. That typically someone else would respond. Two reddit descended into ppl who just want to argue semantics. Here without the karma farming people have more genuine responses
Over on mastodon on the other hand… I get the feeling people brought some of the negative aspects of twitter over there. Still overwhelmingly positive but I tend to get more info on lemmy now than mastodon Imo
I don’t think there’s any less karma farming on here. People still look at their up and downvotes, and I don’t think there was a legitimate industry for selling high karma accounts on Reddit. Not one that would make a difference at scale anyways.
The problem with Mastodon and Twitter is structural, it’s based around following people, not topics. It is inherently problematic because a) personalities and status get elevated over the logic of the argument, b) following people instead of topics inherently feeds people’s egos in a problematic way, and c) a given person can use their followers problematically (brigading, etc). On Reddit / Lemmy by following decentralized topics it eliminates or reduces most of these effects, though the mods controlling each subreddit can exercise some of the same influence.
You can turn that off in the UI. I did that and it mostly makes the place more tolerable, though I do find myself peeking sometimes.
I’ve long thought this but infrequently find other people who think the same!
On here (and reddit, rip) and most forums, I don’t really look at the user name. I just read the content I think that’s a better setup.
Early Reddit was very libertarian, you would not believe how big Ron Paul was. It went more to the left once it got a mainstream audience
Hi. I am, kinda.
In my estimation trump is more likely to avoid a war with china then Harris. So given two terrible choices I choose trump.
They both represent the purple party, and are basically the same for most issues, they are both pro genocide for instance.
But I don’t find that a interesting topic of conversation, the captured us political system is broken and the way to address it is with voting system reform. That’s the real conversation
update: thanks for the downvotes, its a good reminder of why i don’t participate in the political communities here.
Yes, voting reform is extremely important. The problem is Trump’s view of voting reform is to restrict who can vote. The dems idea of voting reform is to make voting easier, and at the local levels, push for ranked choice or approval voting making 3rd parties actually viable. Voting for Trump is pushing us further from good voting reform. Harris may not be platforming voting reform, but at least she’s not going to interfere with state level reforms like Trump will.
Fair enough. I see what you’re saying, but I’m a single issue voter since I don’t really care about the purple party. I just care about avoiding a war with China.
Because you’ve come out with unfounded accusations of a possibility of a war which won’t happen for many years, if ever.
yahoo.com/…/surprise-beijing-meeting-raises-hopes…
They aren’t meeting because they are going to war.
If you vote for Trump, you are voting for a criminal, a rapist, a creep, and I will assume you are the same.
Must be difficult to live in a country where you think 49% of the people there are so dangerous.
You’re applying peer pressure, you’re trying to signal purity, but it’s not a convincing argument. It just means I’m less likely to listen to your following argument after you’ve said terrible things about me.
regardless, this interaction Demonstrates to OP how toxic talking about politics can be on lemmy
I really don’t care. I’m not American, I don’t live there. It’s on you.
At least 49%. I’d say that about 25% near the center are OK, but 75% of the people outside that center are batshit crazy on some important issue or another.
It’s extraordinarily difficult thinking that a majority of the people are an honest, open conversation away from making a scene.
On both sides, probably.
Most of the right, and a good chunk of the left.
80% of lawyers, 90% of politicians, 98% of salespeople. 100% of lobbyists.
the down votes T_T
There was an alt-right instance made that got defederated quickly.
Exploding Heads may be what you’re talking about, a Nazi instance.
They don't have to say anything to let you know. Just watch and see the downvotes and maybe sometimes a reply that gives you the signs. That's all you need to know.
There are a couple masquerading as Green Party supporters, and you do see blatently pro-Trump posters occasionally, but most of them are lurkers who, if they comment, hide behind criticizing Democrats rather than voicing pro-Trump sentiments.
Look for the people who were smashing Biden for the debate behavior while ignoring Trump’s Alzheimer’s symptoms. The people being nitpicking Harris or Walz, while being silent about the Couch-Fucker and Orange Stalin. Those are the pro-Trump lurkers. There aren’t many, though, because they don’t thrive outside of an echo chamber.
Lemmy’s an echo chamber as well, but you’ll find plenty of people who criticize both parties, and while a lot of people like Kamala, very few claim she’s perfect, or worship her. And there’s plenty of legitimate criticism of the Democratic party, and strong sentiment about a need for change in US politics. This is the sort of discussion and debate which would not be sanctioned in most conservative forums, and could easily get you banned. So I think it’s fair to say Lemmy is far less echo-y than most.
I think that your metrics for picking covert Trumpers based upon that appaling debate is incorrect and simplistic. I watched every second of that shit show and believed that we were doomed for another 4 years of the orange turd.
Trump lied during the debate. Some estimates were that he lied upwards of 250 times in his 45 minutes at the mic. Those numbers seems off, but who knows? I don’t know the true figure, but it was insane. However, it is also not the fucking point. Trump is a serial liar. He lies to his family, he lies to the people, he lies to the courts, he lies non-stop. He would have lied if Biden performed outstandingly in the debate. He would have lied if Biden put in a middling performance. And, he lied when Biden performed badly. Are we supposed to be clutching our pearls in shock that Trump lied?
So, we can’t judge Biden’s terrible performance by the ‘other guy’. We need to judge whether Biden could win in November. And if you had of watched all 90 minutes, like I did, there was zero confidence that he could. The GOP campaign would have portrayed Biden’s lost moments a million times, over and over and over again. And they’d be stupid not to. And yes, Trump lied in the debate. Let’s try and turn the broken bus around on the seemingly new information that a serial liar lied on stage.
The proof of this was the instant jump in the polls once Harris became the candidate and the growing support since. Is the argument that all these covert GOP critics suddenly turned Dems? Or, perhaps, changing to Haris was the sensible thing to do, and perhaps, just might keep the orange turd out of the white house.
Well, yeah, it’s simplistic. I’m generalizing.
I agree. Biden had a bad night (and, it appears in retrospect, had been declining for a while). Trump has been a deranged narcissistic sociopath since day 1; Biden was held to a higher standard than Trump. Biden performs poorly, and the heart sunk out of the Democratic faithful. Trump performs poorly, and that’s just par for the course, because all Trumpers care about is hurting liberals.
However, I admit I don’t know what you’re arguing; I think we agree on most of this. The Harris bump was because (as I said) it gave liberals hope that they could win. The bump came from undecideds who suddenly saw an energized, engaged, and competent viable candidate as an option; or people who before saw only two decrepit old white men (The Patriarchy) feebly flailing for control, and suddenly one of the candidates was strong, under 60, female, and a minority!
We’re answering OP’s question why there aren’t more Trumpers on Lemmy. There are; they’re just hidden, and how they respond to the debate outs them. The debate was just an example:
Democrats are far more critical of their own candidate than Republicans are of their’s, and that’s how you identify the conservative lurkers. They’re there, and they’re not hard to recognize.
This subsequent post of yours is more substantial in explaining your position and I generally agree with all of your points.
My post was with the absurdist position that critiquing the Biden performance around the time of the last debate made you an enemy of progressive politics. Joe had fired his last good shot in 2016. He’s a good man, a heroic fighter for his age but Trump was always going to steamroll him this time. It doesn’t matter that Joe had a cold, or that he sometimes made excellent policy points, the optics were that he was meandering and frail. It wasn’t that the debate done him in by itself - Obama sometimes had a bad debate (particularly his first one) it was that his performance on the night confirmed what was evident for months. By the time Joe started arguing with Trump about who could beat who in golf the jig was up.
Despite Trump’s own senior moments, despite his atrocious behaviour, despite his obvious lies, the feeling was Joe is doomed. And so was the most important election since last time, and that says a lot. The fact that it is not impossible that he still won’t get in again is beyond worrying. But with Harris there is a decent chance.
I hope that clears up my position? It was more a vent against all those who insisted that we ride the Joe bus over the cliff and disbelieve our own eyes while we did it.
Yeah, I think we’re on the same page. The Biden administration did good, but we’d come to a depressingly low point in politics.
I’m encouraged that more conservatives are feeling it’s safe to pop their heads out and criticize Trump, and the radical right who’ve been able to hijack the party thanks largely to party policies started during Ronald Fucking Regan’s administration. But if they do it on Lemmy, they’re assumed to be liberals which may increase the perception of there being few conservatives on Lemmy.
Lemmy is still more generally politically Left than American Left, which is, after all, pretty centrist compared to western Europe. This feeds even more into OP’s question about why there aren’t more conservatives on Lemmy: if you look at Lemmy as a European, the pro- Trumpers are neo-Nazis, not conservatives; the center is so far right, anything more right is essentially legally banned in Germany.
Thats a pretty sophisticated bit of analysis, particularly for Lemmy.
I still find it amazing that the vote will be as close as it undoubtedly will become. I mean, Trump is not only for himself, but he is also plainly destructive. He’s now touting the low-information ‘Joe Rogan vote’. Young white guys who haven’t been following anything.
Oh ffs, it's non-binary. I can support certain policies while standing 10 down against others. I can look for alternative candidates without being Nazi, shill or troll. I'm fact, that mentality is from the GW Bush playbook, "if you're not for us, you're against us!" Which to be fair, I'm against politicians who rake in corporate, PAC and billionaire dollars, mainly because they're proud corporate and against we regular people.
But isn’t that exactly what they were saying? If you go on X, for example, you can literally be banned for using the word “cisgender”. Musk considers it a slur. Here, you can voice any opinion.
However there’s a different between agreeing with some right-wing policies and being a full-on MAGA fascist. Full-on MAGA fascists shrivel up and die when exposed to any discourse that hasn’t been heavily censored and editorialized in their favor. So naturally they’ll avoid places where different opinions are shared. This alone is enough reason to call this place an echo chamber, because a (sadly) very prevalent set of opinions isn’t represented here.
And I can, for example, get away with referring to MAGA fascists as MAGA fascists knowing full well that not a single one of those Trump-fellating pussies will say anything against me for it, and even if one does, the community will not have their back.
No these people are definitely leftist. Why would we criticize trump when we know there is no chance of altering his policy. Atleast with the democrats we might (and thats a big maybe) push them left by witholding our vote and being vocal about our opposition to genocide
You haven't seen any of the "genocide Joe" trolls?
yes I think the bigger problem here is right wing propagandists masquerading as lefties.
My honest interpretation is that there are actually very few right wing propagandists masquerading as lefties, but they are very effective at bringing hapless idiot lefties to their narrative.
yeah, some mix of that too for sure.
Oh you mean ml?
What on Earth are you talking about?
Are you referring to Lemmy.world?
Look, one of the more active ones. Tell us again how Cuba is a great example of communism working as intended.
Why do you believe that it isn’t? Under what pretext does my being a Marxist make me right-wing?
Oh, I’m not restarting this conversation with you. You’ve showed your colors when you told me that an article that explains my stance wasn’t an explanation of my stance. Only reason you and others like you sre not blocked is because I get a chuckle out of seeing your nonsense, plus I like to help pointing it out for others that might not know it’s nonsense.
I asked you what your definition of poverty was, and you shared an article with no reference to definition, only to rate of poverty. I wanted to know how you were defining poverty, as we can track metrics over time and analyze external factors. You were uninterested.
You threw a fit and logged off.
Ok, I’ll spell it out for you, maybe you’re just that dense. This is a quote from the link, right below the title. The literal subtitle of the article: “seven out of 10 Cubans have stopped eating breakfast, lunch, or dinner due to lack of money or shortages”.
If that’s not an explanation, then I’m sorry, maybe we have different definitions for the word. So there you go. My definition of poverty in this case is people not having food to eat.
Again, this was at the top of the article, which you’d have seen if you were interested, which you’re obviously not. As we’ve already established, only pretending to be a “lefty”
Cuba is currently running into issues due to liberalization measures, and betting harder on tourism. This is compounded by the ongoing trade embargo, which hit especially hard during COVID.
Seems like Cuba is now doing worse as it has introduced liberalization measures.
It has since applied to join BRICS, which should see increased trade.
Well? What happened? Thought it was a good example? And not another failure in which the people are suffering while the “president” is a rich fuck?
And for those that aren’t aware, this “liberalization” had nothing to do with personal freedoms, it’s talking about the economy. And it started 30 years ago. And it’s getting worse, not better, despite all that time. Any day now, however…
The system overall is good. The structure is more democratic, LGBTQ rights are better protected than the US by law, and social safety nets are generous. Facing temporary economic struggles in the context of a global pandemic compounded by an ongoing fascist trade embargo does not mean the Cuban system overall is bad. As an example, what would you do?
Why would liberalization mean personal freedoms? Cuba already has high levels of personal freedoms, moreso than America, of course I am referring to introducing more Capitalist market reforms.
Either way, Cuba was steadily improving over time, even beating the US in life expectancy, with lower starvation rates. Their latest slump is again due to being hit particularly hard by COVID.
Again, it was terrible quality of life before the liberalization which started 30 years ago, because that’s why it started, and it’s gotten worse, not better since. Stop trying to blame it on the pandemic, it was bad before it as I’ve already said and you’ve ignored.
As for the other stuff you’ve mentioned: Good for them on the LGBTQ and healthcare stuff, that’s a great thing, however…
“Human rights in Cuba are under the scrutiny of human rights organizations, which accuse the Cuban government of committing systematic human rights abuses against the Cuban people, including arbitrary imprisonment and unfair trials.International human rights organizations such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have drawn attention to the actions of the human rights movement and designated members of it as prisoners of conscience, such as Óscar Elías Biscet. In addition, the International Committee for Democracy in Cuba led by former statesmen Václav Havel of the Czech Republic, José María Aznar of Spain and Patricio Aylwin of Chile was created to support the Cuban dissident movement.”
“Press freedom is an ongoing issue in Cuba. The country has ranked low on the Press Freedom Index, a list published by Reporters Without Borders which reflects the degree of freedom that journalists, news organisations, and netizens have in a country. Cuba has been ranked among the index’s “least free” countries for a decade."
As someone whose family lived under a similar regime I can tell you one thing: quality of life is more than stats. Stats can be good while real quality of life is shit. Which is what appears to be happening there. Which is what usually(probably always?) happens under authoritarian regimes.
Citation needed.
You’re trusting far-right think-tanks on Communist countries? Lmao.
Quality of Life must be compared by metrics. Additionally, Cuba is more democratic than the US and similar western countries, and your love of far-right think-tanks doesn’t do you any favors.
I’m just quoting Wikipedia. Not sure how that’s making me a lover of far right think tanks. You’re free to edit it and provide sources for it and it’ll be changed if it’s wrong.
And yes, metrics such as 7/10 people can’t afford food. Not metrics such as “the country with only one political party is more democratic than western countries”.
Anyway, we’re back to square one. Me quoting sources, you dismissing them and not providing anything in return. Typical. Anyway, nobody’s gonna read this far down anyway, so I’m out. Or storming off, as you like to put it. Mark another victory in your calendar. xD
You’re quoting references to Far-Right think tanks as referenced on Wikipedia, don’t white-wash it.
Yes, metrics change over time. Cubans on average are more food secure than US citizens over the last few decades, only recently has this changed. Additionally, Cuba is indeed more democratic, if you think democracy is measured by party and not by what and who you can vote on, you’re woefully misinformed.
Gotcha, will do. Victory number 2 against you.
Careful with that troll word, there are mods that will ban you for saying it. They tell you to report trolls to them, so I did (a very obvious troll) and I got banned. Pretty neat you can’t appeal, and you can’t find out which mod did it either.
Modlogs?
Just show mod. Not which mod.
Doesn’t show what mod did it.
Use the photon UI on desktop.
Just tried it, still doesn’t show which mod is banning or deleting.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/bb4aeb29-3f05-4100-b64c-8a5e3944c643.jpeg">
Mine didn’t show that. Interesting
Here’s the link.
Thank you. I appreciate it.
You can only see which mod did it if you’re an admin
What are you taking about? Lemmy.world loves to ban those pointing out genocide supporters. Cause totally every one who wishes Israel to stop the genocide is a dirty republican. At least that’s how the mods treat them
Because it’s a bad faith argument.
There’s no candidate that opposes Israel’s actions.
It’s certainly okay, even preferable, to be critical of our administration, but it serves no point to bring it up in a discussion of the election, because it serves only to de-rail the conversation when any candidate who matters supports the genocide.
They’ve all but vanished after Biden dropped out of the race.
you’ve stopped seeing comments about Biden once he became irrelevant?
Shh stop pointing out basic reality to liberals, they’ll get scared and start sending you death threats
No, I stopped seeing”genocide Joe” comments. People still discuss Biden, he’s sill President.
until he fucks off soon. the whole point of genocide Joe comments is that people don’t want four more years of him.
but of course thankfully Harris says she’ll help the genocide too so we’ll see how that goes.
They’re popping back up again recently, attacking Harris of course
Too difficult to come up with something for Harris that rolls off the tongue as easily as “Genocide Joe.”
I’ve seen “Holocaust Harris” coming into fashion.
That’s a bad name, the Holocaust refers to a specific genocide.
Never said it was a good one, just that I have seen it.
Decentralized network designed to stand up to big tech by gay trans furries. Not much appeal for those folks round these parts.
Designed by communists as well, not the favorite of coservatives
Luck perhaps? I don’t think I have seen any politics post that didn’t have at least one in the comments. It could also be that the majority of them are on instances not federated with the big boys. A lot of those I’ve blocked were on .ML or Hexbear. Among other undesirable things.
I blocked hexbear a long time ago, it’s a right wing cesspool, I ditched .ml last week because of the trolls and tankies. It’s too bad mods don’t go after the obvious trolls/bots.
But .ml mods are the obvious trolls.
Admins of .ml are trash as well.
They are, but defederation helps keep the echo chambers separate.
On DB0, we get both sides. It makes for a pretty interesting experience. I haven’t felt a need to actually block anybody.
Nice to meet a fellow non-blocker in the wild 👋
He just blocked you
There’s dozens of us!
Doesn’t that just create an echo chamber here?
Yep, here too. Exactly my point. Lol
Openness exists on a spectrum
Most likely your instance is defederated from all the nazi-adjacent instances 🤷
Yeah. It’s the advantage but also disadvantage of the Fediverse. If you’re on the wrong instance you won’t even notice that certain ideologies are right out blocked by the instance owner. This can go into all political directions. You wouldn’t even notice this happening unless you do research on which instances are blocked by yours.
Personally I’m cool with that. I don’t think daily exposure to actual fascists is good for one’s head. And I wouldn’t mind .ml getting the axe too (though I’m not gonna be the one pestering my instance admin about that) because Tankies are equally as draining.
That’s the thing. On one hand I like not being bombarded by the shit opinions but on the other I like being informed at what the talking points are (to a degree) because I find that keeps me sharp against the opposition. When I read or hear about conservative viewpoints, I only think about how obtuse the logic is so it’s not something I worry at all about affecting my mindspace so this might not be a solution to everyone.
I’m still torn on the topic since it’s nice to not give a platform to obviously shit ideals since that’s how the misinformation spreads but I still wonder if there’s an even better protocol out there we haven’t been able to even comprehend yet.
Trump supporters tend to hang out in the /modlog community. Try there first.
We don’t take kindly to folks who don’t take kindly 'round here.
There is a conservative comm on lemm.ee
It’s a shit hole though as expected
Remember when they banned the word “fascist?”
Self-awarenes doesn’t seem to be their strength.
Is there? Damn I just kinda picked an instance randomly before I really understood what that meant. Now I’m sad.
I like it this way. It’s not an “echo chamber” because we do have some interesting liberal vs leftist discussions. I think I’ve already heard quite enough conservative nonsense though; they aren’t entitled to my consideration forever.
They all on truth. And by truth i mean not the truth, i mean the a-social network truth.
They’re also back past the critical edgiboi quotient nowadays over at the other site that starts with r
“Without echo chambers, the weak trump supporter gets bullied and humiliated, leaving defeated and confused back to his herd. Nature is beautiful. “
David Attenborough, maybe
Closer to reality than you think. He did a parody narration of “the MAGAs”.
Haha are you implying that Lemmy isn’t an echo chamber?
It definitely definitely is.
But it’s not a Trump echo chamber, hence their absence.
It’s insane. I left reddit because I thought it was an over-moderated echo chamber with too much corporate influence. Lemmy is somehow an even worse echo chamber and it didn’t need corporate influence to see it happen.
Picking Lemmy over Reddit is a political choice, hence Lemmy having far more Communists.
There are plenty of Trump supporters here. Every comment from someone who implies one shouldn’t vote for Harris because of the Israel-Gaza war is likely someone trying to suppress Democrat turnout. Single issue voting is the only way the GOP ever win.
My brother in christ you cannot compromise on fucking genocide. Liberals like you are so fucking scared of the orange man that you are willing to let hundreds of thousands die without even asking for better.
Found the trump supporter.
Lmao, I’m not voting for a kid diddler either
Then you’re voting for…?
Whichever candidate is willing to end the genocide not that I’d believe trump if he said he would. I’ll vote third party if necessary
Harris is working to end the genocide right now. She’s fighting for a permanent ceasefire and two state solution. That might not be your preferred way to resolve the conflict, but it would stop the carnage and give Palestine more leverage to negotiate on the world stage.
Yeah… no. If she was working towards that she would have ended all weapon supplies to Israel. What she is doing is putting on a face and pretending to care.
She can’t end all weapon supplies to Israel, she’s the vice president.
Even Biden couldn’t do it, he paused shipments and Congress passed a bill forcing them to resume. The power of the president is limited, especially when a super majority of Congress are firmly committed to sending weapons to Israel.
She isn’t even promising it. She won’t do it nor ask Biden to do it. She is helping fund the genocide. Neither have spine.
You do realize that she’s the Vice President and doesn’t actually have any authority or power unless Biden kicks the bucket, right?
Because it really seems like you think that she has any ability to make unilateral decisions or enact her policy platform right this second, and that simply isn’t the case.
She has the.potential to be President yet doesn’t even want to offer this! It’s unreasonable that even the current US President won’t somehow find a legal way to stop weapons exports to a people literally committing war crimes on a daily basis by the admission of almost every expert worldwide on anything related to law, the UN, global health or humanitarian work.
It’s not because they are incapable. It’s because they have no spine. And worse they have somehow convinced people like you that it’s our of their hands.
Biden absolutely has some control over this, but Netanyahu is the bigger problem at the moment. Biden has influence over Netanyahu (with a lot of caveats and red tape due to decades of foreign policy), and Harris has influence over Biden…but that’s not the same thing as absolute control. There are also parts of this that have to get approved by congress and there’s only so much the office of the president can do unilaterally.
They can be doing more, and they should be doing more, but Harris’ role and capability is limited to that of an advisor (under strict scrutiny from everyone) right now, and that doesn’t actually give her that much power.
Like I said, they convinced you they are not able to stop weapon exorts to a war criming nation. Did they have a problem like that when it came to Russia? Nope.
The Americans are lost. Their version of democracy has collapsed over their own heads. In a way, they deserve this shit. If they put all this crappy energy into unitedly voting for third candidate, it just might work. But nope, gotta wake up every day and go online to accuse people who refuse a second holocaust of being tRuMp SupPorTers.
Free thought is dead in America and the Americans killed it.
Go ahead downvote me to fucking hell, haters.
Ah yes everyone not happy about genocide is a trump supporter /s
Somehow people think that pointing out that anyone who isn’t Trump are pro-genocide means that Trump somehow isn’t pro-genocide.
Like you’re not allowed to think about two problems at once. Or that there are no other options…
I get that but I’m not gonna criticize trump for being pro-genocide bc we can’t do shit fuck about that. Atleast with Harris there is a slim chance of changing her position on the matter by witholding votes and being vocal about it. Stop doing genocide has gotta be the most reasonable political demand to exist right?
Yes. Exactly! The reason people keep bitching about Harris and genocide is because they hope something might actually happen about it.
Biden was an absolutely terrible candidate (that I was going to vote for) and probably the only person who could lose against Trump. Because people constantly bitched about how bad he was they changed the candidate.
Harris doesn’t get to use Trump as a not-as-bad-as screen, and given that we don’t have the option of not voting for her, everyone should be applying every other available form of pressure to discourage her from enabling genocide or otherwise maintaining the status quo.
Now is not the time. After she is elected, get out there and put the pressure on her. But it makes no sense to risk the fate of the entire country on this.
This will come as an absolute shock to you. You can vote for someone you criticize…
Which party was it that dogpiles on anyone that dares criticize their shitty candidates again?
The point of saying it before the election is that the expectations are set.
I can understand that you can vote for someone you criticize. But it’s obviously implied that you’re withholding your vote unless the administration changes their tune, which means you’re not voting for someone you’re criticizing at the moment. If not, then you have nothing to pressure with.
I am all for constructive criticism but I still don’t think this is an effective means to accomplish getting this point across.
Obviously implied? So there’s nothing in my comment that directly contradicts that and will make you look really silly in a moment?
What kind of democracy is one where you can’t even criticize the candidate because “it’s not the right time” right before the elections when the candidates are forced to make changes to make the public happy? After they are in power, it’s another 4 years of BS, and by the third year the same cycle begins and you are not allowed to criticize your candidate.
It’s so hard to take people seriously who talk like turbo redditors. My BrOtHeR iN lOw KeY cHrIsT.
Thats fair but it’s probably just a generational or regional divide. For instance, I personally can’t take people who use that form of text capitalization seriously. No shame though I just associate it with 7th grade
You’re not gonna believe this, but I’m pretty sure that was the intent, to mock you
Oh, I’m not very good at detecting those sorts of things
If all you’re voting on is how they respond to Gaza, Harris isn’t great but Trump is exponentially worse. He’s openly said that Israel should continue what they’re doing. In fact, in every metric of comparison Trump is exponentially worse. It’s not that we’re scared of Trump, it’s that he is so much worse in every regard.
Yeah no shit but im not gonna settle for genocide. Slower genocide is still genocide and if I can do anything to prevent the murder of hundreds of thousands of people I will do so. I genuinely believe that witholding my vote and protesting has a chance of altering Harris’ position here.
What good does altering Harris’s position do if she doesn’t win?
If she wins without ceasing material support for actual genocide then we have failed as a people. Politicans are beholden to us not the other way around. It is our demands they should listen to not the demands of raytheon, boeing, palantir, and others that uphold their wealth and power.
Thats not even mentioning the fact that not supporting genocide basically guarantees her win. This is an incredible popular position that many many people passionately care about. She supports genocide because she wants to
But what good is punishing Harris by withdrawing your vote? What does this even do except inch everything closer to Trump - who will make the issue you’re prioritizing, worse?
It tells her that she might fucking lose if she doesn’t change her stance. Do you really think a politician will do anything for the people if they can win without doing it? How do you think politics works? Asking nicely? I’m exerting political pressure not “punishing her”
I think you are misunderstanding the nature of the conflict. The war is between Iran and Israel. Gaza is just one tiny battlefield in the larger war. Iran and its proxies don’t want to solve the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Cui bono? Iran and its proxies, that’s who. Kamala Harris knows this. She isn’t stupid and she is well-advised by experts. You and your fellow protesters aren’t helping at all, you are just making her job of defeating Trump harder. Wake up, my friend.
Hezbollah and Hamas are Iranian proxies that have wrecked Lebanon and Gaza respectively. Hamas’s murderous attack on Israeli civilians on October 7 was all about creating chaos, provoking Israel, and undermining the Abraham Accords. It wasn’t about solving the problems of the Palestinian people, it was done to further Iran’s “Axis of Resistance” goals. In that sense, Hamas’s October 7 operation was very similar in nature and purpose to Bin Laden’s 9/11 plan, and Israel is responding much the same as the US did back in the early 2000s against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.
Iran and Hamas started the current clash with the purpose of provoking Israel into a drastic response in Gaza. Gazan civilians are caught in the middle, but if you think it’s Israel’s fault, you are falling exactly in line with what Iran and their proxies intended.
The Russians, for all their faults, have a well-developed sense of realpolitik, and they have a term for people like you and your fellow protesters: useful idiots. I prefer the term “naive but well-intentioned”, but there is quite a lot of overlap in this case. That “naive but well-intentioned” outlook is fine, even laudable, most of the time, but it is quite unhelpful at this moment when the competition between Harris and Trump is so close.
You should really learn some history, like any history tbh
^ This is either a bot or a 14 year old. Impossible to tell nowadays
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/e9296894-ce79-4922-9780-737e48ab29f5.jpeg">
Please get over yourself
Ok so 14 year old it is then!
Hanlon’s razor, my friend. Lemmy is either filled with “bots” for no better reason than to try to persuade the 5k active users which will not be persuaded or it’s just another bunch of random people, a good percentage of which will always be idiots.
I think the latter is a lot more likely, don’t you?
Your point would be very persuasive if we already hadn’t had a bunch of high profile bots exposed…
Maybe you’re right, dunno. To me they just seem like useful idiots of authoritarian regimes. People that legit believe the shit they’re saying. I hope you’re right, that’d make the whole thing a bit less sad, imo
Also, do you happen to have some examples? Because the best I’ve heard so far is people accusing users such as linkerbaan or whatever it was, based on the fact that they appeared to be posting during times that coincided with the east European working hours.
We cant stop a genocide in the future if were too busy fighting one in our backyard. Our system is fucked, we are forced to play the game, so we have pick our battles.
The orange man is not the solution here, to be clear
Yes, of course. I would never encourage people to vote for a fascist
Yet you are encouraging others to NOT vote for the non-fascist?
CuriousToeTea.tiff
Harris is materially supporting a genocide and uncritically parroting the rhetoric of israeli fascist. I am telling people not to vote for her because she too is a fascist. Should she stop supporting this slaughter then I would happily encourage everyone to vote for her
lol no
America is, unfortunately, a two party system. If not enough people vote for Harris, Trump wins. Period. There are no options besides Harris and Trump, and only one of them has talked about how Israel should literally nuke Gaza (I’ll let you take a guess on which one it was.)
I see your idealism, and I agree that any amount of genocide is unacceptable, but letting Trump win will just accelerate the genocide in Gaza, expand it to the West Bank (more noticeably, anyways), and likely start new genocides here in America. I’ve been writing to my representatives and sending them articles about the atrocities being committed by the IDF and imploring them to do something about it…but I’m not dumb enough to withhold my vote from the Centrists and allow the Fascists to take over.
I repeat: withholding your vote from Harris is effectively a vote for Trump because America is a two party system, and there’s only two options to pick from.
I’ll withhold my vote from trump then I guess. Fascism isn’t something you can vote away, its roots are entirely systemic and the Democrats have no desire to do away with it anyway. People being scared of fascism is basically their best argument for getting elected these days. It’s very useful for them.
Besides, what incentive do the Democrats have to change their policy if they won’t lose a single voter. I’m not so naive that I believe politicians in either party determine policy based off morality.
There are lower ranking Democrats that are espousing the right ideas about things like the filibuster, gerrymandering, and even some that are agitating about the electoral college BS. The best strategy I see right now is to clear as many Republicans out of office as we can, and support the newer, lower-level representatives that are aiming to affect real change.
My voting strategy has always been to “vote blue, no matter who” on the top of the ticket, then do my research and be more selective about the offices lower down, especially in the primaries. Unfortunately, it doesn’t matter if more progressive candidates take hold of the House and the Senate if everything they pass just gets vetoed by the fascist in the Oval Office anyways.
I with you on voting in local elections. When in conjunctions with grassroots organizing this is where change can truly be made
I’m not terribly old, but I’ve been around long enough to know that the lower offices are where you actually affect change in this country. The higher the office, the less they listen to their constituents.
You’re willing to let millions die for how many more generations in Gaza with Hamas in charge, and tens of millions if Iran shoots its shot at Israel? Grow up.
You keep his name out of your fuckdamn heathen mouth…
Another brand new account posting the same tired bad faith party lines.
The Gaza posts always make me laugh because they completely ignore that Trump would just glass Gaza.
The only reason Trump hasn’t showed how terrible he’d be on Gaza is because he isn’t president right now.
Everyone who doesn’t stand behind me absolutely is my enemy.
Op here’s one ^
Sorry pal. Harris gonna win.
I genuinely don’t care.
Have you stopped to consider that labelling someone as the “enemy” is parlance mostly engaged in by conservatives? Progressives don’t usually think in those terms. To a progressive, you might be ignorant, misinformed, misguided, deluded, xenophobic, racist, or engaging in bad faith, but you are rarely the “enemy.” Even Trump himself although perhaps though of as an “enemy of democracy,” is not a personal enemy. Your response using that metaphor serves to highlight the conservative mind set of making it personal, and harboring an anger so deep that political disagreement is grounds for personal animosity and even violence.
I like how you’re so high up on your horse that not only does is your team too good to have enemies, you can doublethink away any use of the term as impersonal.
The US had a 2x mortality rate of Canada. 6x higher compared to South Korea, 10x of Japan the first two years of Covid. Even going with the lowest number, about 500,000 Americans could have survived with even marginally competent leadership. One that might not have…
… Hitler killed less Americans than Trump did. That’s just facts.
The “disbanding” of the pandemic response team is largely misrepresented. I don’t disagree with the rest, or see how it’s at all relevant to the current conversation.
How is it misrepresented?
The Global Health Security and Biodefense unit — responsible for pandemic preparedness — was established in 2015 by Barack Obama.
In May 2018, the team was disbanded and its head Timothy Ziemer, top White House official for leading U.S. response against a pandemic, left the Trump administration.
Republicans have claimed it was ‘streamlining’ as opposed to elimination, since some members of the team were reassigned to other roles related to pandemic response, but the team was disbanded under the trump administration, that’s just a fact.
Some people cause so much harm that, fuck it, they’re enemies. It doesn’t matter that Adolf McHitlerface had a terrible childhood. Overwhelming violence was a legitimate mean to put an end to his action.
You won’t be able to fix everyone, and not everybody with a terrible life becomes a fascist.
Trump doesn’t care that you have an open mind and are willing to try to change him. Give him the chance, and he’ll let you know what he thinks of your good nature.
I’m not dehumanizing him. He’s not the antichrist. He’s in fact terribly human. But not all humans deserve rehabilitation, especially when they’re actively causing harm. When a terrorist shoots people at a concert, it’s absolutely OK to kill them to prevent innocent deaths.
It’s OK to take a stance, sometimes. And you don’t always need to be very civil about it.
Fascists deserve bashes
Agreed.
You: “Hitler can’t take back office, but we do need to continue the concentration camps. People who don’t want concentration camps are directly supporting Hitler.”
excellent bait, good sir 👍
I don’t like the deranged trumpists but unfortunately there’s not much Christian discussion on here and !christianity@lemmy.world gets downvote brigaded
People are pissed about all the harm christianity is causing in the world. In a community that is more likely to consider religion to be the “opium of the people”, you won’t find much support for christianity, I’m afraid. Even if you’re not part of the people using your beliefs as a weapon to oppress.
But downvoting posts just because they’re Christian in nature is just purely religious bigotry. Anti-theism isn’t much better, if not worse, depending on how someone follows their religion.
Those dang anti-theists, with all their crusades, and inquisitions, and molestation scandals. At least when theists isolate you from your friends and family for being gay, or leaving an abusive relationship, it’s done in the name of God. What’s the anti-theists excuse?
This is actually laughable, but I’ll point out your own hypocrisy.
Anti theism is desiring the eradication of all belief in God and mandatory atheism. By default and nature, it is bigoted and worse than everything you listed. But sure, let’s entertain this anyway.
The aim of the Crusades were about taking back the Holy Lands from the occupying Muslim forces. Sure, religion was involved, but the same stuff happens with National ideology. Like Russia “taking back” Crimea in 2014. So getting rid of religion won’t stop things like this happening. Throughout modern history, most major wars were based on a secular political ideology, notably the First World, Second World, Cold, Korean and Vietnam wars.
Second - Molestation scandals. These happen in any organisation, and like wars, aren’t inherently religious. Of course, large churches were a good target for child molestors, but the same thing happens with schools, generic celebrity stuff and broadcasting corporations. Sometimes on a bigger scale than the scandals in the Roman Catholic Church. Anything that gives anyone positions of power.
Third - Let’s list some prominent anti-theist regimes.
USSR - 1.2 Million killed in the purge.
People’s Republic of China - “Fatality estimates vary across different sources, ranging from hundreds of thousands to millions, or even tens of millions.” (Of deaths in the cultural revolution). Christianity is still persecuted to this day, and the state can be described as anti-theistic.
Nazi Germany - 6 million Jews killed in the holocaust. Very arguably anti theist as Hitler tried to eradicate Jews and suppressed Christianity that wasn’t theologically liberal in his favour.
Obviously not everyone was killed in the precise name of anti-theism, but it still shows that the problem isn’t religion, which anti theism makes it out to be.
Lastly, in the People’s Republic of China, people are often shunned for divorce and homosexuality, and it’s still a very atheistic country.
For myself, I have never shunned anyone based on sexual orientation, gender identity or relationship status. I have never called for any of these people to be killed by the state for these either. I do not believe the state should be enforcing Christianity when someone’s immorality isn’t hindering anybody else (Such as Homosexuality or Polygamy) Yet if the anti theists had their way, they’d have me persecuted and likely killed because I am a Christian.
That was the aim of some crusades, there were also the northern crusades which had the goal of slaying pagans and forcibly converting people to Christianity. Obviously not all war comes from religion, but Christianity does seem to have a penchant for interfaith violence.
Not only have there been an out sized number of sex abuse scandals involving christian churches (most prominently the Catholic church) there’s been a clear pattern of retaliation, cover-ups, and defense of abusers. When there’s a scandal in a public school, the offender is fired and indicted. The church has routinely shielded offending priests, shuffling them around to avoid accountability.
Nazi Germany was theistic, 98.5% of Nazis were Christians. Their belt buckles had “God is with us” inscribed on them. There has been more violence waged against theists by other theists than by anti-theists. Interfaith wars, sectarian violence, pogroms, inquisitions, forced conversions, over a thousand years of history shows clear patterns of religious violence. The USSR was anti-theistic (at least originally), and their persecution of religious people was wrong, but pretending that every anti-theist supports violent purges of the faithful is absurd. I am not an anti-theist, but I have friends who are, and they just want to be left alone.
1: Again, my point was that not all wars are religion based. Islam also have a penchant for it. The Bible doesn’t advocate war either (in fact, Jesus seems to imply the opposite) 2: The issue is an organisation of the Roman Catholic Church, not the religion itself. Large organisations like that are houses of cards. 3: Sure, the nazis may have been theistic but fundamentalist/orthodox (small o) Christians were still persecuted for rightfully calling out the evils of the Nazi regime.
So you’ll think that you’ll manage to get me to renounce my faith and stop believing using laws without having to kill me? 🤣 Anti theism is the advocation of removing and persecuting religion. “Wanting to be left alone” is more akin to secularism, where the government doesn’t have a support or bias for any religion.
Yes, Islam and Christianity both have a penchant for holy wars.
There are many large organizations that don’t put so much effort into shielding abusers.
Anyone who called out the evils of the Nazi regime was persecuted, including atheists who were often labeled ‘Russian supporters’ due to their lack of faith. ‘Godless’ communists were the first targets of Nazism.
I think most modern anti-theists aren’t interested in forcibly converting anyone, they see the rise of atheism as inevitable. They want to remove religion from schools and public life, stop posting the ten commandments everywhere, stop putting ‘god’ on money, etc. at least that’s what I hear about.
I don’t think anti-theists need to be advocates of forcing people to stop being religious, they can simply be opposed to theism. Like I’m opposed to the smoking of tobacco, but I’m not interested in prohibiting it, I just think it’s unhealthy and the world would be a better place if there was less of it. I think that’s how many anti-theists feel about religion. At least that’s the impression that I get from talking with them.
There are also many large organisations which do shield abusers, like the British Broadcasting Corporation. The Roman Catholic Church is one organisation.
These “modern anti-theists” are secularists. These “Anti-theists” are as bad as Satanists who absolutely pinky promise they don’t worship or love Satan, ACAB people who claim that All Cops Aren’t actually Bastards and it’s the institution, or White Supremacists who actually claim to only care about preserving their culture and not actually hate black people, and then complain when people get this negative perception of them outright because the Biblical character of Satan, hating literally every police officer, and claiming that white people are a superior race isn’t a nice thing.
I’ll call out anti theists and anyone who labels themself as one for the bigots they are. Secularists though, I understand and have no issue with.
Also, I have seen a few on Lemmy who have literally advocated for the legal persecution of Christians to my face.
Ok, honestly, celibacy might’ve been facilitative for it. You know, accessible targets because instincts are instincts, even if it’s young boys.
And priests being celibate in the Roman Church is some mad doctrine which came about after the Reformation and contradicts 1 Timothy 3:2&13
The doctrine of celibate priests is not a part of the Christian religion and I strongly disagree with it.
Is worth mentioning though homosexual people and paedophiles could have became clergy in the Roman church to escape societal pressure - it would give an excuse for them not to be harassed by society asking “when wife” and over time, feelings got pent up and was unleashed in horrible ways. That’s just a theory, though
Oh nonono, we’re not playing the “but atheism is a religion too and it’s worse!” Garbage
Every Christian is “not like the other” Christians. The rhetoric isn’t welcomed on the fediverse because it’s poison.
Stuff gets downvoted when it hits the all page. The conservative communities have the same problem: they’re not wanted here.
I’ve just subbed! I look forward to contributing to discussion in the future :)
NNN communities also get downvote brigaded, even though the famous Internet challenge is largely apolitical.
Nofap communities? How? It sounds like the most harmless thing
It’s not even nofap, it’s no nut November. The former is a philosophy, the latter is a challenge.
I think people downvote nofap here because it makes some arguments that really stretch the truth and feed into bigger lies. In reality, there’s nothing wrong with not fapping, but there’s also nothing wrong with fapping.
Isn’t it moreso like alcohol? It can be abused but also can be in moderation?
Yep. Although it’s hard to abuse fapping because you run out of sperm lol. It can be a big time waster though.
Screws up your pleasure receptors. If you use porn, it can also mess up your attractions
Never heard of the former, and you don’t need to use porn to fap. Porn addiction is absolutely a real thing though.
Because the fascist fuckwads would be run out of town on a rail.
Yeah, this is not a nazi bar.
I’ve been accused of being a Trump supporter multiple times because of comments on Gaza… as I read top comment of a dumbass calling people who denounce Harris as confirmed Trump supporters…
Anyways it’s the same in practically any niche technology, you just tend to see more leftists because they happen to be the ones creating and using said technology.
There’s still a large portion of Republicans who use cable/satellite TV, but don’t have internet besides their cellphone plan. They’d only come if lemmy became a popular de facto social platform like Facebook.
i really hate this, same thing also happened to me in my country. i’m hating on the “B” candidate and people would assume i’m “A” supporter. i don’t believe any politician at all.
They’re cowards?
There probably are some right-wing instances, but I’m guessing they all got defederated for… reasons…
Conservatives already have their own platforms e.g. truth social, twitter, 4chan, others
The very format of Lemmy is more egalitarian. For example, it gives an enormous amount of power to individual users to filter out unwanted content, and decentralizes content moderation over a variety of instances. This doesn’t appeal to some right-wing ideologues who seem to value more hierarchical, centralized systems. Basically, Lemmy is more democratic (or has the potential to be more democratic) than other platforms.
There is a whole separate lemmyverse full of conservatives and pedophilia. They are defederated from every sane instance.
“Conservatives”:
<img alt="2b8-432429194" src="https://lemy.lol/pictrs/image/6211990c-69b4-42ad-ae21-5c8abddf5484.jpeg">
Exploding Heads, that’s the name of the most prolific Nazi instance.
Lemmy in general is developed and maintained by Communists, for starters. FOSS in general, especially FOSS social media, is a Leftist answer to already existing Capitalist Social Media.
There are right-wing instances like Exploding Heads, which is a Nazi instance, but they are defederated from every major instance.
This is how you can tell me you’re a troll and know nothing of the history of personal computing.
[Tried to approximate the quote, couldn’t copy and paste on mobile]
Edit: not sure if you were sarcastic or not, based on other comments. Either my instance or my mobile browser makes it hard to see everything in a coherent way.
A few exist, they’re just defederated from most instances. Its Freedom of Association at work, the only acceptable form of censorship.
The Fediverse’s demographic is digitally conscious lefties and moderates that desire transparency, accountability, and greater user control.
Exploding Heads is the only Nazi instance I’m aware of, are there others?
Exploding Heads is the only one Im aware. But I am certain there are others; just need to dig for them.
I point your attention wolfballs.
I may not agree with most of the perspective, but the author’s opposition to censorship is admirable.
Yeah free speech isn’t always free, but I’d rather the freedom to read things I disagree with. Others may disagree though.