What did Musk and Trump fall out over?
from LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 06 Jun 16:35
https://lazysoci.al/post/27913253
from LadyButterfly@lazysoci.al to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 06 Jun 16:35
https://lazysoci.al/post/27913253
Other than them both being dickheads
#nostupidquestions
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Musk realized Tesla couldn’t do the rebate scams if the bill passed
Can you ELI5?
Bigger than that, I think Musk finally realized that Trump only holds up his end of deals as long as it’s advantageous for him. The rest of us have known that for as long as we’ve known Trump, but hey, being a totally legit super genius has its downsides, right? Anyways, Trump promised him a buffet of corruption, then got cold feet when he saw musks appetite. Even more than that, they’re two self-appointed kings of their own worlds, both with the emotional intelligence/maturity of a very traumatized teenager. With their levels of obvious insecurity, their arrangement was never going to work. I’m just glad their break up is as juicy as I thought it would be. :)
Pretty much everything we’ve expected has come to pass so far, only much faster than any of us could’ve foreseen. I would’ve expected them to “get along” for a year or so before calling it quits, but evidently they didn’t even last that long.
Still hella amusing though.
Well said. They are just for themselves and now they are no longer align
I think they’re just two overly inflated narcissists who’s goals briefly aligned, and now they don’t so much.
I think that’s likely all it was. But, I also think it’s a little too convenient that Trump is done with Elon now that the dirty work has been done to line up manufactured support for their billionaire tax break bill. At risk of getting a little conspiratorial, it’s possible Trumps team actually planned to use Elon to do all the worst damage so they could cut him loose, after the fact, then blame him for the worst of the fallout.
How is a tax rebate a scam?
You buy an EV, you fill it out on your tax return, you get up to $7500.
Where’s the scam in that? Please tell me.
In some circumstances the company also gets a cut of rebate. I don’t know about anything that may or may not be going on in the US on this front, but in Canada Tesla’s been under scrutiny because they submitted a bunch of forms last minute claiming sales that did not look legitimate, just before the Canadian program ended.
But the Musk/Trump stuff isn’t about Canada. The American federal tax rebate doesn’t work like that. It only benefits the consumer, so it’s not a scam they can do here.
motorillustrated.com/…/149947/
That’s Canada. That’s not the American tax rebate.
He convinced the government to subsidize the sale of his products to consumers. It makes sense on paper because we want more people driving electric cars. However, Tesla of all companies doesn’t deserve the “handout”, even though it’s to consumers. They don’t deserve the boost in sales, recognition, etc.
It’s not technically a scam (the best kind!) but it’s helping out the richest man and biggest asshole in the world, so it might as well be.
he did this in canada already
Also Trump mad because DOGE was a failure (from a budget cut perspective), and Trump mad because he wants to pass the big beautiful bill that will astonishingly explode the national debt and defecit, but Trump is either too stupid to understand that it will do that, or he’s mad that anyone in his circle would publically say as much… or some combo of both.
Its like with the tariffs: Trump is genuinely so stupid he doesn’t understand how any of this actually works, but at the same time, any idea he came up with is a good idea and fuck you if you disagree… because he has the emotional maturity of a narcissistic 12 year old.
that explains is sudden flailing attacks. and also its just a distraction from what trump is doing anyways.
Neither one wanted to be top when nobody was watching.
The same thing that got them together. Money.
Don’t doubt that but do you know what exactly?
I doubt it is one thing but there is a bill on the floor about removing tax credits for EVs which would hit Tesla quite bad.
I think it’s more about power. Musk wanted more, but got less.
I’m putting 50/50 odds that it’s an intentional, theatrical distraction from other more important things that are going on, or it’s just the inevitable outcome of two malignant narcissist sociopaths being in the same room together too often. If they quickly kiss and make up I’ll lean more towards the former than the latter.
I’ve found criminals and high up business people are never friends, just friends when it suits them. They’ll have HUGE fallouts then be ok with each other when they need each other. Just IME
Also maybe just a stock market pump. It seems like the shit always hits the fan on Fridays when the US stock markets are the last to still be open due to time zones and it has time to stick because everyone styas closed during the weekend. So everybody gets to see the news about it hitting the fan 💩
Nah, musk has said some stuff that you don’t come back from. There is no way Trump says “eh, he accused me of being a pedophile but it’s all good”.
That’s exactly my point. If they do in a few days “come back from” that and are all buddy buddy again, then I think that indicates it was just a staged performance for show and distraction and none of it was real fighting. Suggests it was all just an act. (IF they do come back from it. Which remains to be seen)
Muskrat has already backed down from a few things he said in the “heat” of the argument, like that he was going to disassemble the Dragon capsules. So I wouldn’t jump to your conclusion that they can’t possibly “come back from” this, my point is just that if they do, it was probably all just an act to begin with because I agree if it’s real, stuff was said that neither one of these vindictive sociopaths is likely to forget.
I find Bell Of The Ranch usually summarizes these sorts of political situations adequately.
Disclaimer: She’s not a news source. But, you know, neither are we here, so…
TL;DW: She doesn't really talk about what they fell out over, instead she latches on to what she thinks is the main issue people are overlooking: (she claims) Musk is basically telling the GOP that Trump has only 3 years left, he's old news, but he "will be around for 40 more years".
Who cares? You ever take a shit, turn around and say “hmm… I wonder what that shit is feeling”. No. You flush it down the toilet where it belongs with the rest of the shit in the world
With you in spirit, but they have too much control over too many lives to just be dismissive about.
Unfortunately, by that metaphor, the world is constipated.
Why do you think they need more than that?
Fair point
Trump wasn’t giving him the policies/legislation he was asking for that would put his businesses at an advantage. Additionally Elon was unhappy with the tarrifs. Lastly, they both have large and delicate egos.
While I am sure there are real, specific reasons that can be pointed to as “the reason,” the real answer is that you can’t put two narcissists in a room together and tell them they’re on the same team. This always was the only possible outcome.
Musk feels like he bought a president and should own him outright, Trump feels like he’s renting a timeshare on the oval office and Musk is taking up too much of his ‘allotted’ time.
What are the chances they are working together and creating a distraction?
Until the Epstein post, I had the same question. Now, not so much.
It’s entirely possible
Less than 1%.
People vastly overestimate these bozos.
They aren’t lying. They actually believe this shite. They aren’t playing genius 5d chess they are just reactive morons. Look at the leaked Signal group chats.
No doubt Vance is a bit smarter and is acting a bit, given all the ‘Trump is americas Hitler’ stuff. But this is unspoken between them.
I see your point, but I’d be cautious of underestimating them.
Regardless of their own shortcomings, they have more resources than virtually anyone else on the planet to compensate for them. They certainly have teams of incredibly smart, and incredibly well paid people scheming for them.
Different kind of smart. I dont underestimate them I just see right through them.
It’s us leftists projecting reality onto them, thinking they must be lying. But after a lot of prodding, nope. Cognitive dissonance.
They have people who are Ben Carson smart. Domain-specific. Not in general reasoning, critical thinking, or capable of maintaining such a façade. Anyone smart would’ve distanced themselves along time ago unless they are grifting them. And generally those types of smarts don’t end in MAGA to start with. Just like how MAGAts don’t end up as artists. (Name one conservative artist who isn’t shit)
And Trump cannot lie. Yes, all he does it lie. But he also cannot lie. If you ask him if he commited a crime he’ll straight up admit to it. Everytime. He rejects the premise of guilt. The lies he does tell are done out of a mix of unconscious strategic self-presentation and the fact he is just thick as shit and believes whatever he sees on the TV.
Publicly, Elon said Trump’s bill was full of pork and would increase spending and debt by a lot.
Voters on the right were already waking up to how shitty Trump’s bill was, and Musk just used his megaphone to let even more of Trump’s base know that it sucked.
Privately, Musk is probably pissed that Trump’s bill didn’t help his companies. These are two greedy assholes. It all comes down to money and ego at the end of the day.
That’s a really good explanation thanks! Can you ELI5 why the bill sucked?
Normal people hate it because it’s gutting things like Medicare, and GOP ghouls hate it because it doesn’t cut enough and will add to the deficit by a lot
Ah I see thanks. Cits to medicaid can only be bad IMO. How does it add to the deficit?
It’s four trillion dollars in spending, huge tax cuts that mean less revenue on top of the cost, and cuts to incredibly important programs.
Ahhhh thanks 😊
No, the GOP hates it because it will cut into their poorest voters, big time, such a cut that Fox won’t be able to explain it away.
Doubt
They’ll just say Biden did it. Simple as that.
The bill give massive tax cuts to the extremely rich, and it attempts to pay for part of that by:
When you do the math, the rich will get a lot of money, the very poor will have lose money, the and middle class will break even but many will be put on unemployment.
And it costs an extra $4,000,000,000,000, which is fucking bonkers.
This sounds ludicrously bad. What are the perceived benefits? How is it being sold to peopl? It sounds abysmal
A lot of people still buy into trickle down economics despite consistently not working for the several decades we have tried it and reflexively support tax cuts for the wealthy. A lot of those same people also think that kicking people off of what they consider to be “welfare” will somehow magically result in those people quickly becoming employed, thinking that the reason they aren’t employed is because they aren’t facing serious enough consequences for unemployment.
It has literally never worked, even over a century ago when it was called “horse and sparrow economics,” and it never will.
I guess the big argument is that giving a bunch of money to the wealthy will stimulate the economy. Although, that’s an argument that many nations, including the US, have 50 years of data on, and there isn’t much to support that argument. Trickle down economics hasn’t been shown to work.
I also, if you’re in the camp that doesn’t believe in climate change and or thinks poor people are poor because of character flaws, then you probably like this thing. Or if you’re a wealthy person who donated a lot of money to republican politicians, you probably like this thing, because it’s a return on investment.
It’s not particularly great. Many people on the right only voted for it because they’re afraid Trump will primary them, and end their political careers, if they oppose.
FTFY
From the people I know, who do depend on these programs and like Trump, they don’t believe they will have their benefits reduced. The think the other people, “taking advantage” of the system will be kicked off. It’s being sold as reducing fraud and abuse. The right-wing has been pushing this framing for decades, and many people have bought into it.
Yes that’s true. And most people agree fraudulently claiming benefits is wrong
Yeah, that’s how they sell it. Problem is, studies have shown the fraud in these programs isn’t much of an expense, in the broader context. And, Trump has granted clemency to Lawrence Duran, who stole $205M from Medicare, which tells you they don’t really care about that. These programs are actually pretty efficient, and spending funds to investigate small-time fraud would often cost more than just letting it happen. It’s not like tons of people wish to be on our shitty social programs that don’t even supply enough help for the people that absolutely need it.
Agree. Any charitable system will be ripped off by a minority, it doesn’t mean you shit down all charities
Musk was taking all the attention and jumping about like a dick.
First rift was musk was going to get classified briefings on China and Trump put a stop to it.
Also Musk had a fall out with Bessent and Trump sided with Besset.
Also rumoured he fucked Steven Millers wife (who is a lefty and would blacken a right eye with a hook).
Nothing to do with the bill at all IMO. He does not give a single fuck about that in any form. Just a pain point he knows he can drive a wedge through a big part of Trumps base.
It’s also possible that this is just political theater designed to distract people
I feel like you don’t call the President of the United States a kid fucker to millions of people unless you’re serious. It’s possible but it seems pretty unlikely
That’s what I thought originally but then I got high and thought about it more and it seemed pretty likely they could go that far. And things getting stranger than they already are seems likely to me.
EDIT: Also, Musk called that scuba diver guy a kid fucker. Nothing came of that except ridicule
You’re traumatized and overthinking it. They are not that smart. A good thing is happening. Enjoy it.
Also I think Tesla stock went up a bit since this whole thing started. Muskrat might just be trying to distance himself from Trump to save Tesla’s sales numbers.
They’re both raging self obsessed narcs who can’t stand anyone else getting attention. It was just a matter of time.
Tl;dr: housecats
I think Musk is stupider than people realize. He’s a true believer in his grandpa’s technocracy movement (plus eugenics), and so he thought “if I was in control for just a few weeks everyone would realize they should just let me run the world”
Then, he got practically unlimited power, and everyone got mad at him. He seemed genuinely surprised that people weren’t praising him for his sacrifices (such as selflessly condemning hundreds of thousands of people to death)
Then he showed he was useless at buying elections, and the right dropped him
He followed Trump around for a while quietly, probably spending most of it in a k-hole. Then Trump officially broke up with him, even if he glazed Elon on the way out
Then the narcissism kicked back in. Maybe his “friends” rubbed it in, maybe his dad called him a disappointment who fumbled the chance of a lifetime, maybe the threat of legal ramifications made him bitch out - but whatever happened, Elon woke up one day and decided “it wasn’t my fault, Trump and Co fucked me”
I think Elon is actually concerned about the bill to some degree, because it does stretch our debt and spending to levels that could potentially pop the global economy. I think he does feel disrespected that his work at Doge is being rolled back and everyone is distancing themselves from him. I think he is upset that he spent all this money to buy the presidency, and got a bad ROI
But ultimately, Elon is a fucking idiot with a huge ego. He didn’t understand what game he was playing, and so when he lost he started blaming others
And it’s beautiful. Possibly the greatest crash out in history
Regarding “Elon is stupid” I don’t agree. He has shown exceptionally good technical skills, he has no people skills, he’s worse than useless at presenting himself to the public in general
I don’t think he engineered much at either Tesla or SpaceX, but he had an excellent understanding of what they were doing - he could answer all the (non-ITAR, non trade secret) questions Tim Dodd asked in his tour of Starbase. When model 3 was new Randall Monroe did and assessment of the vehicle, Musk took the criticism and the next version fixed all the identified problems.
I would say Trump is the opposite. Actually low IQ, poorly educated, but good at talking to the population at large
No, he’s shown zero technical skills across his lifetime. He literally has no skill as a programmer or as an engineer
Have you ever seen a kid with a model car that can rattle off the horsepower and acceleration speed? That’s what Elon is. He doesn’t understand these things - he buys companies and learns the spec sheet because he’s a fanboy with too much money.
Elon couldn’t code his way out of a paper bag. He couldn’t put together a model rocket with instructions on the box. What he can do is memorize a bunch of statistics he doesn’t understand on a fundamental level
While I have not reviewed a lot of Musk speak, let alone armed with enough to credibly review his commentary, but based on my own field and “respected technical leaders” that interview with customers and the press, with broad acknowledgement that they really know their stuff…
Most of them I’ve known can sound very confident and credible while saying completely incorrect stuff. No one tries to correct them because them being actually correct doesn’t add value and trying to fix that is more trouble than it’s worth much of the time. The people paying attention don’t know well enough to recognize they are wrong… usually…
Upon occasion my company throws one of these “geniuses” at a customer that actually knows what they are doing. Then I got to see our executive basically try to gaslight the audience when they challenged his competency. The sales people has to last minute pull in the actual technical people to try to repair our image after the customer interacted with the executive…
Now one would think, clearly, after such an embarrassment, surely the company learned to field the actual technical experts to deal with technical questions… But no, for every smart customer that is turned off by that executive, there’s 10 more clients that don’t know any better and respond so much better to his baseless confidence than actual competent discussion. Also, those 10 suckers will also get suckered into more high margin stuff versus the smart customer, that will be really good at getting the most cost effective products, with low margin and skipping the pointless addions.
That’s dead on. Great description, that’s exactly the dynamic he had with the public
The only difference is people who saw through the facade were happy to let him hype up good technologies… well, at least until we found out he’s always been a fascist at least
Yes, as long as you were on the side that benefits from success, it was better to leave things “simple” and not challenge the incorrect stuff out loud you aren’t going to “well actually…” the “expert” if it risks your job and/or the wrong stuff isn’t too important or too hard to overcome when the rubber meets the road.
Still, sitting in a room or otherwise being a party to a conversation where an executive is constantly being confidently incorrect and still praised as a smart expert likely making 7 figures is maddening.
Intelligence is multidimensional. Musk is obviously great at business, the kind where you stretch the limits of what is allowed to grow your empire, and (I agree) he knows what he’s building and capable of recognizing where he should lead the product next.
His political acumen is gotta be dogshit, with an unlimited money all he managed to do is to destroy the “realworld ironman” image he spent a decade crafting. He has no rizz, especially compared to Trump who is loved by half of the world (and hated by the other).
Also, critically for him IMO, he has no self-reflection. With all that power gassing your ego up, it is crucial to be able to step back and see that you’re just a dumb ape as the rest of us. Recognize things you’re bad at and find good people to field for you, instead of sycophants whispering “it’s the kids who are wrong”
No he just got lucky a few times. Then he flagrantly broke the law because he realized the SEC would never hold him accountable and that let him turn Tesla into the first memestock. That’s why he is megawealthy. Luck and fraud.
I agree, I’m saying you need to have a certain acumen to recognize the opportunity for a grift and then keep the plates spinning for a decade.
He’s also had a lot of help due to being born with an emerald spoon in his mouth.
He’s got the technical skills of a toddler learning to walk. I doubt he could code hello world.
Ever listen to a kid with a model car rattle off horsepower, 0-60 time, engine displacement, and other facts?
The child does not understand what that means, not really. They might know the dictionary definitions for those words, but the kid doesn’t have the context to understand what it means in a useful way. They just memorize the stats because they’re neat.
That’s what Elon is.
Elon is a trained programmer who doesn’t understand code. It’s painfully apparent he has no understanding of what he’s talking about once he starts talking on a subject you know intimately… Dude is actually an idiot. An absolute joke. His thinking is laughably superficial
He’s also pretty terrible with people, but he sold the “awkward nerd” persona very well. He doesn’t know what he’s talking about - but he knows how to make it seem like he just can’t properly express himself to a layman
He thought he was playing the game against Trump who is in fact a moron. But then he found out there are smart powerful evil people actually pulling the strings who have more power than he could imagine. He got fucking set up and rolled over by people as cunning as he perceived himself to be. Self reflection is not something his brain is capable of so he’s just lashing out lol. He’s a bozo and his companies are going to 0.
Pretty much. Trump is charismatic… But his brain is leaking out his nose and he wasn’t very smart to begin with. Elon is effectively dumber, because trump knows he’s in this to get his bread buttered - Elon might have more ram, but he doesn’t understand the difference between con and reality
Maybe it’s being neurodivergent but I have never understood his “charisma”. He’s always been a vile, crass, babbling, moron whose only “secret” to deal making had been finding rubes that didn’t think his lifetime of theft of service, as well as just plain theft (that for was never prosecuted as it should have been because white collar crime) magically wouldn’t apply to them.
I mean, I’ve never enjoyed watching him speak, but charisma isn’t just being convincing. It’s controlling the atmosphere, controlling the conversation, making people cheer
You don’t have to buy it to recognize charisma. People undeniably were taken in by it. He says the stupidest, most incoherent shit… But people still ate it up
If you want to truly understand, pick one of his older speeches, and watch it. Then, read the transcript. Even if you hate every moment of both, the difference is staggering
I get it but don’t “get it”. I suppose I tend to think in terms of small groups rather than manipulating crowds of rubes that have been keeping in a state of perpetual outrage through decades of right-wing talk radio and TV, and are so desperate to be told what to do that P. T. Barnham would say “Hey now, that crosses a line.”
I’d still suggest that it might be less charisma and more an audience so primed that they’re near auto-ignition being subjected to a Hitler-fanboy who picked up a few things from professional wrestling.
Then again, I also don’t “get” celebrity worship and numerous other NT things.
Damn, well put :x
Yeah I really hope he goes after Vought and the truly evil people next. It’d be glorious to watch them all fight and get ripped apart so they can’t harm anyone else.
It’s funny to watch Ted Faro play out IRL lmao
When playing Forbidden West, I pretty quickly concluded that Faro was based on him. And the Zeniths were very much Bezos and friends.
The bill ends the carbon offset income that’s the largest portion of Tesla’s income. Combined with their sales being in the toilet because everybody hates him, and the company very well may not survive.
Eel-on-musk saw a ray of daylight from the bottom of his k-hole and had a crisis of conscience…? Idk man everyone’s on drugs. And I do mean that literally, for this regime.
musk wanted the govt to spend less, trump wanted it to spend more
I assume - Musk tried to pressure Trump to get more kickbacks, but t has loyalty elsewhere. Not to mention musk has aggravated everyone in the WH and someone from t’s inner circle told him to just cut him out because musk served his purpose and t agreed. And of course, musk isn’t president he is!
Because autocracy cannot sustain conflict of ideas. It was just a matter of time as every political scientist said 6 months ago.
Fun fact: This isn’t the first time they’ve worked together and broke up. IIRC, Trump choose Musk for some advisory role during his first term (I don’t remember what, specifically). Musk resigned because Trump withdrew from the Paris Climate Accord.
Ahhhh I didn’t know that thanks
You ever see what happens when you put two narcissists in the same room? This is what happens.
Have you heard the Tenacious D song “Two Kings”?
“We don’t have to cognitive capacity to lead… ok we’ll do it”
40% of Tesla income comes from offsets paid by ICE companies.
businessinsider.com/tesla-profit-could-shrink-und…
Trump is killing that.
The fact that he was able to get this in the first people is lol
This is such a shit way to do industrial policy. Just hands out no conditions. China gonna teach US a lesson, gonna hurt. A generation of malinvestments across key industries. Clown capitalism.
Wow. Reading the comments, it’s amazing how uninformed people here are.
Read the news, folks.
What?! Only fools believe what the professional journalists say! Dintcha hear? It’s all fake news! The only real news is the stuff you see online, in random and especially backwater Internet forums, because why would some random, anonymous person lie or have things wrongly worked out? Trust in the obscure and unverifiable!
There is no fall out. They both are still getting exactly what they want. It is a ploy.
Trump thinks Miller Light tastes great, Musk thinks it’s less filling.
Aside from “winning” the election, they’ve both done nothing but step on eachother’s feet and disappoint one another. The levee broke.
Most of that can be traced back to Elmo being a giant idiot who got lucky because he lies all the fucking Time about everything. Everything he promoted, every promise he made over more than the past decade, its all been lies that people have been lapping up because reasons
This is just Trump’s M.O. No reason required.
Fair point