from vestmoria@linux.community to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 08 Sep 15:13
https://linux.community/post/3420358
as said previously I’m a nurse, which means the overwhelming majority of employees are women. Gossiping, being unauthentic, cattiness and passive aggressiveness is a daily occurrence.
My current unit: there are 2 men that seem to be completely stoic (I don’t know what word would describe them better): they ignore drama and jabs, even if directed at them, they are punctual with their pauses, I mean really, 30 minutes and that’s it, and can ignore when other coworkers lazy around, even if it means they have to be the ones doing most of the work, extra work they don’t receive any extra money or recognition for.
I am writing in awe, because as much as I’d like to be this thick skinned, I am not. The feeling of being treated unfairly rubs me the wrong way really fast. My strategy so far has been to lazy around so much as my direct coworkers, even if they’re part of an established group at the ward I don’t belong to. They’re the ones supposed to be showing me around and teach me. If they don’t work, why should I?
I believe this is a trait of mine, something nearly impossible to change, it would make more sense to change the setting than trying to change me, to change jobs. I don’t know how to play this game where I am, in a workplace where most employees are women.
But my question remains to all of you who are this thick skinned: how? I don’t understand it. Don’t you find it tiring? Doesn’t it make you feel like shit when you go back home? Don’t you feel taken advantage of?
#nostupidquestions
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I feel you exactly the same. I don’t know how my coworkers do it. They can literally get screamed at, called out in a meeting in front of others and it’s like nothing to them. Meanwhile I fight back tears and my voice raises and I panic. In the corporate world that means I’m weak. I’m damn good at my job but in a situation like that I just crumple, and to leadership they don’t look at my projects or outcomes, all they see are those few instances.
It also haunts me years and years later.
Sounds like to me that maybe its not about how thick their skins are but about not taking the job personally. If you view a job just performing a function for money and just focus solely on the job it would look the same. Ignore other peoples drama, personalities, work ethics etc. Just do the job and focus on that ignore the drama, the gossip, and focus on doing your job well.
I manage staff and my best employees would seem stoic but really they just had focus, good work ethics, and a kind of get in and get out mentality. No gossip, no hanging out with their coworkers. Work was work then go home.
Right, there’s a reason it’s called “work” and not “fun!”
As someone in this camp, this is very accurate. I’m simply very selective about the amount of fucks I give at work, and save them for my personal life. It makes me a better worker on top of having better work/life balance.
Do work, get cheque, leave. Why get drained emotionally if you aren’t being paid for it.
Not everything is worth caring about
Not to sound sexist but it sounds like the men are just there to work while the women need an extra layer of bullshit
That IS sexist. You can’t just pretend that is not
There are many possible reasons for this. Maybe the bosses are sexist and they hire men based on skill and women based on looks.
Maybe all the men that were affected by all this have left and only the thick skinned ones are still there.
You have no valid reasons to assume women are just worse. But that is what you did
Ok, sure. But it’s literally the situation OP described.
“overwhelming majority of employees are women. Gossiping, being unauthentic, cattiness and passive aggressiveness is a daily occurrence.”
But the ONLY 2 men there just go there to do work, shut up and do work
I’m taking what op said as a fact because they are telling the story. It would be stupid to argue with them since I wasn’t there.
Yours was an opinion and you opinion came out as “women are useless” basically. Either that, or you just kind of quoted what op said, in which case you added nothing to the conversation
Edit: I said “you opinion was”. Changed to " your opinion came out as"
I never meant to imply women are useless- sorry if that’s how it came across. I have a wife and daughter, I love and respect women. But I have noticed that workplaces that are mostly women USUALLY have very high degrees of interpersonal drama
FWIW I didn’t read it that way. OP describes a particular workplace not a universal situation. Maybe where he is, the women at his work are useless. That doesn’t make it a sweeping generalization, just the situation where he is. I had a boss who wouldn’t hire men because his experience was that women actually got the work done, men did not. And I had a boss who only hired men (I was there before he was hired) and when I asked him WTF he said he wanted people who weren’t afraid of him, that me & the other lady there weren’t but most women would not speak up. Those are sexist - they held universal views and even worse, based their hiring on it.
I’m not trying to care that much. I work to finance my life outside of work. I don’t think about work when I’m not at work.
It’s quite possible these men have reached the Nirvana of being thick-skinned. If so, we all should be in awe, as that is a rare thing to achieve. It also could be that men are not allowed to show emotion, and would otherwise be condemned if they complained or didn’t “take it like a man”; especially being around a lot of women where they feel even more pressured to show up and be a man.
There’s two parts:
Highly valuing my professionalism and dignity is the first part. I don’t need to chase money or approval because I can always make more money, get another job, make new friends. What I can’t afford to lose is my respect for myself, my professional reputation, and the self-discipline that makes me effective at what I do.
The second part is what I’ve long called “charitable apathy”. I genuinely don’t care what others think and just try to treat them with kindness and understanding. You know, like children. Teach them if they want to learn, give them a snack if they’re grumpy, applaud their terrible art as long as it doesn’t make too much of a mess. Anyone who complains that this is condescending is exactly the kind of person most in need of your apathy and least in need of your charity.
Since this is the third or fourth post of yours in this vein, I will remind you of previous advice: Part of your job is to get along with your coworkers. It’s okay if you don’t enjoy it; nobody enjoys every part of their job. Just say “hello” and “goodbye” and “I’m getting coffee, do you want one?” and occasionally compliment their shoes or hair or whatever; it goes a long way.
I like the cut of your jib.
I think your notion of charitable apathy probably only comes across as condescending if in your explanation you make it sound like you’ve never been (or would never be) in a position to receive that treatment from others.
I feel like a few words tossed in to clarify that would probably help people avoid a gut reaction about your ideas.
People might also be getting hung up on the idea of treating someone like a child. I had my kids a little later in life, and I treat my toddlers like adults. What do I do when an adult is crying? I sit with them and comfort them. What do I do if I see an adult about to step in dog shit? Yell to them to tell them a warning to watch their feet. What do I do if an adult tells me they’re hungry? I help them get food. What do I do if adult tells me they want to play with hot wheels with me? I say yes.
Maybe I fundamentally don’t understand how others conceptualize treating a child. I think that term is super loaded. Like the word “savory”. You can ask 10 people what the phrase/word means and you’ll get 10 confident and incompatible answers.
Fuck yeah. Hot wheels are great.
Honestly the drama sounds like it is the extra work that these guys aren’t being paid enough to deal with. They’re wise enough to know to stay out. Compartmentalization is key here.
Exactly... Why waste time and energy on drama.
Rabbied dogs will love on to the next target thats provides more reaction
Start the day with no fucks to give and there’s no mid-morning crash when you run out.
After the resulting shit from being friends with my coworkers at my first “real” job, I avoid work socialization as much as possible. I’ve been with my currently company for 3 years and have only given my number to 3 people…two of which just wanted pictures of my dog since I stopped using Instagram.
Nobody knows me that well and I like it that way. Nobody asks me to fix their computer, nobody shares the latest gossip. If they try, I say “oh wow” and then look back at my screen
I understand at some jobs you just don’t meet compatible people and this is the better strategy. But I can’t help but feel it’s a bit sad. I made some long lasting friendships at my job. It all depends on the situation.
I’ve had several jobs since then and met a few lifelong friends but the point is none of that matters when you’re on the clock. Don’t get involved in the drama and don’t date your coworkers (unless you work in hospitality, I guess)
As an almost 40 year old man who has worked a few years in different kinds of healthcare (including being the only man in a retirement home). I would get pissed when people being lazy caused suffering (because of lack of care) but that never gave me the go ahead to do the same. I’m better than that.
I also started my job journey working in factories, wielding shops and construction sites. In factories you learn to count every minute and be extremely punctual. You know how many seconds more you can chat before you get a backlog and shit from the boss.
In shops and construction sites people will chew you out and really ostracise you if you don’t carry your weight.
But mostly: Is my job to actually be working during my working time and I don’t give a fuck about what Karen thinks about stuff, she’s shit at everything anyway
It’s good to keep in mind that not showing emotions doesn’t mean not feeling them. Men don’t generally act that way with each other because there’s a real and always-present danger of actual violence. Disagreements usually either get solved, or we just bury those feelings until someone pushes us over the edge - and then we punch them in the face.
That’s not an option when you’re a man working with women. You can’t let things escalate because they can take it further than you can. He might be boiling inside, but there’s no outlet for it. We just deal with it and we’re usually quite good at that since we’ve been doing it all our lives.
If I am being paid to do a job all I really care about while I’m working is doing the job. I might judge people for their failings and look down on them for being shitty, but I really don’t care because I’m just there to do the job I’m being paid to do. I might feel bad if people are talking shit and spreading rumors about me or whatever, but I don’t give a shit because I’m at work to work. If people are slacking off and not working when they should be, that is an issue for management to deal with. If people are spreading rumors and creating disruptions with gossip and drama, that is an issue for management to deal with. I care about doing the job I am paid to do, anything else going on at work is not my problem. I don’t think I’m actually that thick skinned or anything really, I’m just maintaining basic professionalism in what is supposed to be a professional environment.
To me it sounds like you have shitty management and shitty coworkers. You can try to be a catalyst for change in a more positive direction if you want but it might be better for you to find a more professional workplace. Also, I do think if dumb drama and gossip at work bothers you this much finding a job with fewer coworkers or a more independent role would probably be a better fit for you.
I’m one of those efficient employees who sometimes get taken advantage of. I generally don’t let it bother me because I’d rather just get the shit done. And they know you get shit done, that’s why they give it to you lol. It’s almost a compliment in a way? Shoot, they may even thank you, like “I’m glad you’re here” or “now that MelonYellow’s here, I know we’re good.” And of course - management loves you. Being cool with the higher ups is a perk in itself, should anything come up.
Of course some days it’s annoying, but it takes a lot for me to show it. Because I dislike whiners. Unless it’s egregiously unfair, I just do the assignment because it’s not worth rocking the boat. And guess what? The people who suck at work suck in their outside lives too. At the end of the day, I’m confident in my worth. I have the power, not them. I’m not stuck at this particular job - I chose it because of XYZ reasons. I’m paid very fairly for what I do. And I don’t think about work when I’m off the clock because I have my own life/hobbies that make life awesome. That all helps a lot.
Get fucked and/or fired a few times for no good reason. That hide will thicken up might fast. Forces you into a new perspective and resets some priorities.
I’ve learned that the boss can and will be a prick as he pleases (always dudes in my case). Hes going to do that and you can either fight with him and get fired or backburnered, or you can just eat shit and move on.
You can get into pissing matches with peers, but the person who wins is the person the boss likes more. If it isn’t you, accept defeat and move on.
Modern work is just the act of eating shit for money. There is no dignity, there is no payoff. You are just giving untalented clowns what they want in exchange for money. I don’t think any of us wanted it this way, but here we are.
I have fully been broken and institutionalized by the system. I have zero hope of ascending to some lofty position by virtue of my intelligence and hard work. Those who run everything pick their own. Unless you grew up with parents who run everything, there is a very low chance you ever will. They pick their own kind, anyone else is a liability.
Shit flows down... And unless you are in da club...
It may be that they are just oblivious.
Years ago my wife and I noticed a difference between the men who worked for her and the women who worked for her.
She had to take a woman aside and tell her that her shoes weren’t appropriate for the office. The woman heard, “she thinks I’m a slut.”
The men would hear, “she thinks my shoes aren’t appropriate for the office.”
Science indicates that women generally have more brain space devoted to communication than men. That is typically accepted to indicate that women communicate better than men, but it really just means more of their brain is involved.
Like a person with macular degeneration seeing hallucinations because their brain is trying to fill in the missing information, some women will hallucinate information that isn’t in the communication.
They will also think they are communicating in ways that aren’t conveyed with words. Many men will miss subtle, “read-between-the-lines” subtext because they just don’t have the neural real-estate to deal with it.
Women are also more likely to care about what other people think, simply because they are more likely to be at risk if they piss off the wrong person. Men can usually be a bit more chill because less of the population can threaten them. So it’s entirely possible that those two men don’t care because they know no one is going to kick their ass, so there’s nothing to get upset about.
Men will care a lot about actual aggressiveness. When you’ve had to be stitched back together after being jumped, passive-aggressiveness doesn’t seem like that much of a big deal.
Fuckin a, man.
“Women are also more likely to care about what other people think, simply because they are more likely to be at risk if they piss off the wrong person. Men can usually be a bit more chill because less of the population can threaten them. So it’s entirely possible that those two men don’t care because they know no one is going to kick their ass, so there’s nothing to get upset about.”
This is an important factor, and not always a gender thing. I can be thick skinned at my work because I don’t care, if that makes sense. For whatever incomprehensible reason, management where I work thinks I do a better job than others in my department even though I give them all credit and make as many mistakes. So I say what I mean in meetings and the other ladies are amazed that I push so much, one is convinced she’s on the brink of being fired all the time, I have mostly worked at startups and never got in the habit of deferring to management and so I don’t.
That’s just work though. We don’t have much politics here. My one experience with a place like that, with complicated underlying relationships, cliques and people trying to undercut others, I was absolutely useless, no idea how anyone navigates all that. It did affect me, I did feel lost and upset and frustrated.
I find it so much more tiring to be caught up in what other people are doing.
I realized a while ago that life isn’t, and will never be, fair. If I spend all my energy on thoughts that include the word “should,” I won’t have the energy for myself when I need it or others when I believe they deserve it.
Being anything else just isn’t worth my time or energy and makes me unhappy.
Because I am completely dead inside already.
Yeahhh I am so far beyond caring. I go in (or log in when I’m WFH) and I just do the job. There’s drama and people are all doing things and causing issues and I’m just… gonna do the job I’m paid for. There’s no way I’m exerting the mental effort to care about more than “do the job I can eat the food and live in shelter”
No one will ever pay me enough to be emotionally invested in ‘work’.
Stoicism isn’t a state, it’s a practice. I think the Buddhists act the same way. None of us will ever become truly “enlightened” but if we keep trying we become better ourselves.
I cannot change your emotions or actions towards me; I can only change how I respond to your emotions or actions towards me. It’s obviously way more complicated than that but yeah, you might be a candidate to read some Seneca or Epictetus. Not going to be a cure all but might help you as you navigate this fucked up world.
In the show Severance, you have a innie and a outtie. That’s me.
My innie is here to do the work and make money. Sometimes my innie hangs out with coworkers. Or acknowledge their major life event. But innie does marketing work and adds more garbage to the garbage pile.
My outtie has a family. He loves his family. He takes them to plays and dinners and outdoor events. He paints and watches lame TV. He tells his wife how beautiful she is, his kids how proud they make him.
Their two lives are separate. Innie is focused, driven, direct, and some what of an asshole to get the job done. Outtie is loving, spends time with his family, and paints.
Am I thick skinned? No. Innie is just willing to suck corporate dick and do a song and dance so outtie can enjoy life.
Yecch.
As a welder turned machinist, is it really so hard to act like an adult as an adult? I’ve seen a bunch of different shops around my area, and hands down the old heads are the worst when it comes to drama. They’re so focused on status and seniority that they forget that it’s just a job.
That being said, work how you want to work, not how you see other people working in your role. “Good enough” is fine for learning, but i want to be good at what I do, not good enough. I like my paycheck, and I like feeling like I earn it too.
I’m actually in a position where I got a raise at work and acknowledgement from my peers where I feel like I’ve been doing average work. I could take that to mean that I’m doing good enough and I can coast. That would be totally normal. But I’m looking at it as encouragement to continue to develop my craft. I tried out some shit on a lathe the other day I’ve only ever seen on crazy Instagram videos, but it worked for what I needed to do, and the part came out acceptable in the end. Now I can continue to expand my experience with confidence.
The trick I use is: I am here to exchange time for money. Whatever happens during that time, I really don’t care. The company tells me what to do during those hours and I do it to the best of my ability. Someone complains at me? I don’t care. Someone makes me do extra work? I don’t care. Someone’s having fun behind the trash compactor for the fourth time this month? I don’t care. A customer attacks me because we’re out of a particular single beer can, even though we have it in different sizes and multipacks? …ok, that one was fucking hilarious in retrospect and I’ve dined out on that story for a decade.
I tried REALLY hard to get my wife to see it this way when she was in a shitty job. But in our situation, it was 20 hours/4 days a week, and we didn’t NEED the money. She has a guaranteed income from a work injury until a year after retirement age which (in addition to my income) is just enough for us to live on, her income from that job was all gravy and made a pretty massive impact to our financial comfort levels. I begged her to just let it slide, ignore the shitty managers and the lazy coworkers and all the petty vindictive bullshit and look at it as 20 hours out of her week for us to have fun money. But nope, she couldn’t. 😢
I’ve found a lot of people get hung up on small details, or have trouble prioritising tasks.
You say the workplace is women-dominated. Are there any women not participating in the drama? Asking because you didn’t mention and, in my experience, there usually are a couple quiet no-nonsense ones. Perhaps they could be more relatable to you.
I suspect the answer is they just don’t give a fuck. Unless it affects their job, they just don’t care.
they’re men.
For some of us, being treated unfairly is just another part of life we need to get used to. I’ve had to deal with this a lot with my bio family. I feel that even though it was really shitty in a lot of ways growing up, you learn to be grateful for the lessons it teaches you. The men who are being stoic are really just conserving their emotional energy in exchange for their mental and physical energy because they probably don’t have much of the former. We’ve had to learn well to compress emotions as much as possible just to live in peace. We conserve our emotional energy for the things that matter most to us and yes, it feels like shit sometimes. But it’s a familiar feeling. It makes us us.
The only way to win the game is to not play.
It sounds like you currently care more about the people at your job than your job itself. Perhaps you can tell yourself to flip that?
We are a reflection of the people around us. Maybe next time your colleagues are lazing around, instead of joining them and ignoring the work, you can join those two you admire and ignore the others?
I’m not sure this is something people should strive for, to be honest.
This may not help at all, but I worked at a toxic workplace. I got good at recognizing when I was being manipulated. Eventually, I learned that if I hid the hurt and acted as if the jabs didn’t hurt, it would send the toxic folks into a toxic rage, but the ironic part is that they could not complain to management about me not being affected.
One day, I was called from one of the people from a recorded line (certain customer facing phones were always recorded, you could even hear the beeps). After the call, I told my manager, we went to HR, who pulled the recording and that person was moved to another area. I left shortly after for other reasons.
Well, I know that I only work because I need money to survive. I don’t go to work to make friends, work is punishment, unnecessary and soul draining.
With that hate in mind, I have no more hate to throw to my coworkers, because it’s all directed towards the company.
That’s why I treat them neutrally or in a positive way. They are also wage slaves like I am.