Is anyone else not feeling that patriotic for July 4?
from yarr@feddit.nl to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 02 Jul 17:24
https://feddit.nl/post/37531364
from yarr@feddit.nl to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 02 Jul 17:24
https://feddit.nl/post/37531364
I was talking to one of my friends and he mentioned staying home on July 4, citing how there are a lot of really ugly things going on in the US.
After thinking about this myself, I’m starting to feel the same way. Instead of being proud of the country, I’m feeling like I’m just another wallet that companies and the government are trying to suck all the money out of.
The cost of living is going up, the housing market is a nightmare, I don’t feel very confident in our government at all, the job market is a nightmare…
I think I’ll be staying home this year too… anyone else?
#nostupidquestions
threaded - newest
youre not alone
https://lemmy.world/post/32286445
This link is broken
hmmmm try this
https://lemmy.world/post/32286445
the other link is from an instance with a log in requirement
Thanks, that works now
I haven’t “celebrated” the fourth in nearly a decade for this reason. On top of that fireworks are pretty bad for everything and those with PTSD.
My coworkers dog would thank you very much as well for not shooting off fireworks. He said he usually drives out of town for a few hours until it dies down because his dog gets terrified :(
Yeah, forgot to mention pets. All of mine hate the fireworks, so it makes for a miserable time all around.
And it’s not just pets either, wildlife also gets affected by firework
I have never really felt patriotic for that date, June 6th is more apropriate, or even better, june 20th (this year)
I normally enjoy some fireworks every year, but have zero interest this year.
It’s been decades since I’ve cared about the 4th as an actual holiday. Now it’s just a day that I don’t have to work.
Good day to march on your White House, perhaps…
I thought about this too. In the past I used to go to protests because I felt that if our leaders saw the protest that they might change their mind about something.
Now, so many of our citizens are so insane, they think you won’t actually protest unless George Soros pays you. I also can’t picture Trump seeing a protest and saying “I think I’ll reconsider…” It feels more futile than ever.
It’s never futile. Sure, Trump will never listen, never care about anyone whose not himself, never face justice (crap, now you’re depressing me), but what about Al the minion who do his bidding. I mean, they’re evil too, but going deeper ….
This all can’t happen without supporters. Maybe it’s voters who are low information or easily manipulated finally seeing the truth. Maybe it’s federal employees feeling the support to do the right thing. Maybe it’s law enforcement growing shame at how they’ve been used. Maybe it’s judicial branch standing up from being marginalized and corporatized, fighting back against legalized bribery and corroded ethics at the highest court.
The billionaires big bill was passed in the senate on a tie breaker. It would have take only one more senator to be swayed. Big elections coming up in a little over a year- your peers might elect someone who will actually serve them. Various states and cities, corps and law firms are standing up for what’s right: maybe you can get one more
I’ve found that it gives hope to those who hate the direction the nation is going, but feel isolated. We are not a tiny minority, and we need to act like it.
Kinda interesting how you US-Americans have a certain day for being even more patriotic than the average US-patriotism rest of the time. As a German I personally haven’t felt patriotic at any point in my life and most of the people I know (probably more left-leaning than German average) always looked at your patriotism (espacially on July 4th) with a certain lack of understanding. Why even be patriotic? Why always raise the US-flag? Why are there Florida men running through hurricanes with an US-flag? I know independence and stuff, but still why celebrate your patriotism even more on a specific date, even as a more left-leaning person?
I mean, I’d think of it as like being proud of your home and the accomplishments of the country. That doesn’t seem very odd to me. It’s just that lately, I feel like as a nation we are just making so many mistakes and I feel ashamed, not proud of the country.
I have no enthusiasm to raise the US flag this July 4th, excepting maybe showing it upside down as a sign of distress.
When I think about the US and its future, I just get a sinking feeling and I don’t feel very happy about it. I’m ashamed how far this country has fallen in the past two decades.
It hasn’t really fallen, it’s just saying the quiet part out loud for once.
fr, it’s honestly just business as usual except some white people are facing material consequences and their government is being too obvious with its imperialism.
US was built on fascist doctrine and will continue that legacy until systematic change.
Don’t really understand that either. I could understand celebrating the date at which you got an united democracy, that’s certainly an accomplishment. Even that happend a quarter millennium ago, you (even your grandmother) didn’t take part in it and nowadays there’s no British monarchy you can annoy by being a democracy, but celebrating democracy as a concept always is great. But you don’t do that. All what I see from the Atlantic Ocean’s other side is some people celebrating something which is written under “Nationality” in their passports. I personally can’t celebrate something as complex/indefinite as a country. I don’t think complex really is the best word for it, but what I mean is that countries never are only good and also “country” itself is a term so obscure and indefinite. The country existed for nearly 250 years, billions of people lived in it and some terrible stuff happend in and because of it. Wars and crimes and war crimes of leading personell, etc. Surely also some good stuff, but how to seperate that? You simply can’t. Is Ronald Reagan part of what you’re celebrating, is Donald Trump part of it? Is democracy part of it? Is some random 1800s-farmer part of it? Are people even part of it and if no why? Are the country’s borders part of it? Is the tree standing in your backyard part of it? You can’t ignore the killing of civilians in Vietnam war while including democracy or can you? What’s home? Is it your family? Your house? Both?
One thing is for sure: You aren’t the country, you just live at some place on the world which happens to be territory of something named “USA”. Same for me, I have been born at some place which happens to be territory of something called “Germany”. Why should I be proud about the place where I was born? That’s no achievement, I didn’t even contribute to it. I’m proud that I managed to contribute to democracy by protesting and voting. I also felt proud about the A I got in some elementary school test. I’m really proud about switching from Windows to Arch Linux in less than 2 hours. I may some day feel proud for my children while watching them doing something great. I contributed to all of this more or less directly and I can feel proud about it for that reason. But why should I feel proud about a country? Germany is nothing I’m responsible for, the (current path of the) USA is nothing you are responsible for. If you were responsible for it, why shouldn’t I be too?
We can’t feel proud about it, we can’t feel ashamed for it, because it isn’t our fault. However we can change the current situation. Changing the world, having the courage to try it, is something we can feel proud about.
This is just such an odd post for me. I know people that have Nordic or Germanic ancestors and love to celebrate and love that part of their heritage with yearly parties or festivals. Isn’t it a normal human reaction to feel proud of your “tribe”?
I’m not claiming to have invented the USA, and sure, I was just born here. I didn’t land on the moon myself, but I feel proud of the USA when I think about Neil Armstrong doing it.
The USA isn’t all bad, and my life would have had a different track if I was born somewhere else. I think you might be reading too much into it? July 4 isn’t some kind of cult meeting over here where we all chant over the flag and run around in robes. For most people, there’s maybe a parade, a cookout or two, and a day off.
Of all the problems in the USA, people celebrating July 4 or feeling some national pride is way down on my list, and I’d say somewhat typical of people to feel proud about their home.
To be honest: Sounds like some nazi stuff, at least that would be my first impression if someone did it here.
Sarcasm joins the room May be, but killing each other was a normal human reaction for millenia. Sadly still is today sometimes.
NASA is great and I really like it, I feel good for humanity because it is able to do different thing than killing. I wouldn’t call that proud, because I didn’t contribute to it. Even space travelling is to complex to like all of it, moon landing was part of some foolish trial of strength on earth- No, I won’t overanalyse it.
I know your July 4th isn’t a cult meeting, but patriotism seems like something invented for people who have nothing they can feel proud about, because they haven’t archived something to be proud about. (Don’t take that personal.) At the same time patriotism tends to sperate different groups of people which shouln’t be seperated since they all are part of humanity and could archive great stuff together. It’s the one thing evil persons can rely on if they want to create a scapegoat to make people fight this scapegoat instead of seeing that they –the people– all are just part of humanity and should revolt against their evil leaders.
WTF?? I went to one of these parties with my neighbor and he shared his favorite bratwurst recipe and prepared delicious cabbage dishes for us. How does that relate to Nazis?!? You do realize not every German is a Nazi, right?
Just to remember: I’m German myself. I didn’t say they are nazis, I said “Sounds like some nazi stuff, at least that would be my first impression if someone did it here”. I don’t want to implement Godwin’s Law in this constructive discussion. In my opinion it sounds like nazi stuff, because a lot of German nazis I know love to fantasize about their “Germanic roots”. That’s my first impression while I don’t have much detail what you are referring to, since I never experienced such a celebration myself.
Could you understand my position better by what I wrote aside from that stuff about Garmanic celebrations? Because I would like to better understand the US-American view on patriotism while explaining my own.
I could substitute some other examples but the two most recent events I had attended were those two nationalities / heritage. In the past, it’s been Portuguese, Polish, French, Irish and probably a few more I’ve forgotten.
I think if you want to understand the American view on patriotism, just have a giant crowd of people who rarely, if ever, leave their country, speak only English, are fed propaganda that their country is the best in all areas, has massive problems with education, and then you have the American public.
If you are told your country is the best, are very incurious and are fed propaganda, you will love your country unconditionally. I don’t want to give you the impression that everyone in the country is brainwashed, I’m just trying to convey that at least a percentage of our population honestly believes they live in the best country in the world.
Don’t get me wrong, the USA is still highly developed and has its strengths, but if you look at some (what I believe to be) important statistics like, life expectancy, literacy rate, happiness index, internet speed, press freedom, we sure as hell aren’t #1, but we aren’t in last place either.
It’s been sad to watch science come under increasing criticism instead of developing positively. Just today, a new budget was proposed for the federal government that makes sweeping cuts to quite a few organizations, like the Department of Energy, the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA (our space agency), and most importantly, the National Science Foundation.
The one thing that I feel good about is even if we drop the ball here in the USA, other countries won’t stand still and will continue to fund and pursue science, technology and education.
The reasons above is why I find it hard to be excited and wave an American flag around on the 4th. Things could be worse but they could be a hell of a lot better too.
Most of us just like the day off from work, or the holiday pay if you have to work. and that’s where it ends.
The USA has never had an event to make Americans from shame for the country. It isn’t like the USA hasn’t done shameful acts, but there hasn’t been a reconging of what the country has done.
July 4th is the day our nation was founded which is what merits the fanfare. I would also say that the “displays of patriotism” you may see are largely cherry picked examples. Your typical american doesn’t wear american flag regalia, much less own an american flag and wave it around.
Right now, the reason you are seeing such a pronounced amount of patriotism for Independence day, and I use that term loosely, is due to it being both the 250th anniversary and the current unpopular administration trying to project an alternate reality where they are in tune with the will of the people and establish legitimacy.
There is a lot that can probably be said about the erosion of patriotism in the US as it was co-opted by conservative groups in order to push unpopular policies throughout our nations brief span of existence and it likely ties into the destruction of our education system, but I’d rather let someone more knowledgable tackle that topic.
I deliberately exaggerated, but I dont’t understand patriotism in general (see comment under OPs response on my comment).
Ah, I misunderstood then. To oversimplfy patriotism is being able to love the people, thoughts, and accomplishments of a community (country) that you belong to while seeing and understanding its flaws.
I’ve seen some other comments here describe it to various extremes but there is a clear line between patriotism and nationalism (e.g. Nazis, MAGA, etc) A patriot understands that their country isn’t infallible, a nationalist beilieves it is.
For some people the only thing they have is this sense of belonging to a group, and for others this sense of belonging is what incites them to implicitly care for the success of others.
To clarify not everyone is a patriot, nor a nationalist. People have a wide range of feelings and perceptions on the idea of a nation and their place in it.
I apologize if this doesn’t provide more clarity. The topic of patriotism is largely a philisophocal one that would take more time to yap about than I have on my lunch break lol
I mean I always stay home because I’m an introvert, but yeah, mirroring what other’s have already said in this thread, I haven’t had much to feel patriotic about since at least the Dubya Bush years. So probably more than 20 years of not feeling it.
God I hate Lemmy sometimes. Go buy some fireworks, get the grill out, and hang with family. I don’t fucking care if you’re not into it. Just do it.
Get off the screen for a few hours. You need it
You’re in the wrong sub.
No
Yes. It’ll be good for you
How the hell would you know? Any fool who asserts that they know what’s best for a complete strange they know nothing about is not someone I would EVER trust.
Celebrating a descent into fascism? Oh, but of course, celebrating the complete breakdown of social support structures as they’re replaced with the populace getting terrorized by our own military is OBVIOUSLY such an unparalleled cause for celebration.
Wait, no, that’s fucking asinine. When did you last touch grass, buddy???
Go touch grass.
See, you can’t even get that right. They just sprayed my lawn!
Sheesh, dude. It’s like you’re not even trying! Oh, wait… ʕ ͡° ʖ̯ ͡°ʔ
There’s grass outside of your own lawn. Go touch grass.
Oh, god. You’re so boring!!
LIVE A LITTLE!
I’d say it won’t hurt, bit I lie. Don’t worry, though; it builds character. 😆
But seriously, go away now…
Go touch grass bro. Enjoy your three day weekend
Bruh, you consistently get -15 for every comment and only browse Lemmy, yet complain endlessly about it.
And I don’t know how you do it, but like with schizophrenia you seem to read replies that aren’t there.
Dude’s telling people to touch grass, like 💀
I dont need an occation to touch grass and meet friends
Op does
What’s the point in doing it if I’m not into it? Who am I doing it for at that point?
Your own mental health
boom boom out go the lights
How do fireworks help my neighbor’s PTSD, let alone my own mental health?
I can grill on my own time, thanks.
Don’t be a Debbie Downer
And then he said what! Lmfaooo
Aww, conservadaddy is upset the American tradition is dying of its own consequences. “Just do it 😭” they say.
🎻 🎶
You should go touch grass too
I don’t know if I ever did but I certainly don’t now.
I was hoping everyone would turn out for another No Kings event but I guess too many people complained.
If we can’t be proud of the mess we’re in now, maybe we can be proud of the people who speak up, who try to create change. Maybe we can hark back to our origins tearing down oppressive political and corporate systems. Maybe we can hold up the mythical ideas that used to unite us and fight to make them true. It’s our duty as patriotic citizens to set our country on the right path toward one we can be proud of.
WELL SAID!
Not being American I always found the whole thing very creepy. Like, North Korean military parade-creepy.
For the record, we don't have anything like that where I'm from, but the closest things we do have are also very creepy. Patriotism in general is extremely not cool, honestly.
It’s rooted in all that “American Exceptionalism” propaganda crap, for sure.
As an American I never really liked the holiday, (I agree patriotism sucks) but I wouldn't say it's that it really feels creepy other than the few people who really go over the top with it. Most people just use it as an excuse to barbeque and watch / light off fireworks (which I'm just personally not into)
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn't until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
America and North Korea aren’t alone in some kind of pledge for the country, are we? I have a memory of Chinese students doing the same type of thing, but I’m not entirely sure.
From a quick search it looks like India, Nigeria, Singapore, and the Philippines do as well.
Other countries may have pledges of some sort for special occasions or for new citizens. But having a flag in every classroom that children chant to each morning is not normal.
Over here the only similar events I can think of are related to joining the military and taking elected office. And there was significant legal arguing about the last one, to the point where opt-outs and strict limitations were added.
Look up why the pledge was incorporated in the first place. It was a scheme to sell small American flags and the pledge was made up to go with the flags. Once it was implemented in the classroom - profits were staggering. There was a SCOTUS ruling years ago that the pledge does NOT have to be done in the classroom, but most still do. I do not partake in my classroom and do not tell kids that have to. I do however tell the kids to be respectfully quiet while others do (if they wish).
I appreciate that you don’t tell kids that they have to participate, but honestly, even telling the others to be “respectfully quiet” seems a bit odd to me.
A democratic state is something you pledge allegiance to by actively participating, by making use of your democratic rights and by putting energy into building and shaping the system we all live in. That’s what democracy is meant to be, a system of all people working together and valuing the needs and opinions of others, working out the best solutions for everyone through discourse. It’s not a religion or a god that you pray to in silence, that’s a bit absurd, isn’t it?
“And valuing the needs and opinions of others” isn’t that exactly what I am doing by asking my students to respect that others can say the pledge if they want to? As much as I feel I don’t have a right to tell a kid to say the pledge - I would be a hypocrite if I told kids they couldn’t.
Yeah, I get that, and I think this is somehow a cultural difference. I didn’t mean to tell you that’s not what you’re supposed to do, sorry if it came across like that. I just thought it was interesting that to me, the whole idea of saying the pledge seems so strange, it reminds me of saying a prayer, and that somehow doesn’t match my understanding of a democratic system. I’m from Germany, by the way. We grow up with a very different relationship to our state compared to the US. I think it changed a bit in recent years (and I’m a bit undecided whether that’s a good thing or not), but when I was a kid, basically only nationalists and neonazis waved the German flag (that changed with the soccer worldcup in Germany in 2006). My school curriculum was filled with the crimes of the Third Reich, and I think what I took away from that was to never just worship or even trust a state or government just because it’s you own, because it may actually be or turn evil. And that it’s your responsibility as a citizen to not let that happen. Of course I do feel connected to my country and my culture, but I’m just very unfamiliar with the kind of connection that (many) Americans seem to have with their country. Again, I’m not trying to say it’s wrong per se, but to feel such an emotional connection to a democratic state that is meant to be shaped by the people for the people does feel feel a bit off to me, in the sense maybe that I see a risk of it leading people in a wrong direction. I don’t know. I hope that makes it a bit more understandable. I’d actually like to hear your opinion on that. Is my point of view understandable for you, or does it seem just as strange to you?
I understand completely. I personally do not say the pledge because I know where it comes from. I believe that this country is supposed to be a beacon of democracy. A government by the people for the people. I realized in my mid 40s that there are some people who still think that the POTUS is supposed to be like a king. That’s the opposite of what I learned in school (I am from New York State) and it does have me worried. I hope that we can move back that way because I agree the people are what makes a democratic type of government stronger. Our elected officials are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I fear that a great deal of them are working for corporate greed however. I teach the Holocaust in my classroom and I also teach about fascism. I look to Germany now with hope that people can survive a government that does wrong by them. In saying all of this - I am proud of the ideals that this country (and it’s flag) stand for, but in fear of being a hypocrite - I realize that one of the standards that the flag symbolizes is freedom. Freedom to say the pledge or not based on your own personal feelings and thoughts about what that flag means to you. I hope the kids are feeling proud of those ideals and not feeling nationalistic, but I need to teach them how to think and not to think like me, but to think for themselves. Peace fellow freedom chaser. I hope history keeps us allies.
I screencapped this many moons ago on Reddit, I feel that it’s apropos
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/237c6e7d-6ec8-48cd-9cf0-f407a217a539.png">
The USA started cracking at the foundations when McCarthyism began, demonizing an ideology that was ultimately about sharing resources. You can draw a straight line between the Red Scare and the anti-socialism proudly shouted by modern Republicans and the MAGA movement today.
For anyone who identifies as conservative, this rabid vilification of socialism has rotted away at even the idea that the government should exist to service the people, let alone advocating for it. So instead they advocate for tearing it all apart and hold firm to the ‘rugged individialism’, “the Free Market © will provide” nonsense that has never worked as far back in history as we can peer.
Its so toxic, and it serves only the most wealthy. It’s gone so far and for so long now that I don’t see the lessons being learnt and course correcting with words alone.
Independence day celebrations are not unique to America.
In fact, the best ones are about independence from the US
Which ones are those?
Hmm let me see. True former colonies include Cuba, the Philippines and Liberia. The Panama Canal Zone. Hawaii was unceremoniously annexed, as were Guam and Puerto Rico. And a host of smaller islands.
In a broader sense, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are also very happy they’re once again independent from the US.
In an even broader sense, most US allies are working for independence from the unreliable US as we speak.
I was asking which countries have independence days that celebrate independence from the US.
The Philippines celebrates their independence from Spain.
Vietnam celebrates their independence from France.
I won’t bother going on, but nice try though.
Hey you weren’t supposed to know that!
How many are on July 4?
We have one of those, and it'd be creepy even if historically it wasn't debatable that the event itself was for the better.
Fair enough, I just disagree. Gaining independence seems to me like a positive thing worth celebrating. I’m happy whenever I see an ex-colony celebrating their day.
Not saying we Americans don’t take it a little far, but hey, it’s the one day where you can be patriotic without that creepy vibe.
Yeah, well, that depends on who gained independence from whom and whether you think you're independent now. Also on whether you'd be indepedendent from any guys who'd like to be independent from the now guys if they were to be independent.
See, political independence for a group requires that you align with the idea the group has of itself. I don't know that I have that overlap with any particular political delineation, so I may need an organization a touch more nuanced than an independent, sovereign nation-state.
Also, gonna need some citation on the lack of creepy vibe, as mentioned above.
America fought for independence from Britain because the wealth of the nation was being sucked away and spent for the whims of a handful of wealthy people, and because the people were powerless to chose who the government was. If you factor in the insane number of insanely Gerrymandered districts and significant quantities of votes going through Musk’s servers with no external scrutiny, a broken electoral college and a supreme court intent on deleting the constitution starting with section 3 of the 14th amendment (and now moving on to the rest of it), removing religious freedom, I see everything that the founding fathers fought for and everything that the civil war was fought for being stamped on by one deluded racist moron and his crazy sycophants and enablers. It was never really freedom from slavery anyway when you have such vast numbers of black men working for no wage in profiteering private prisons for decades just for smoking some pot or stealing some groceries while rich men who do drugs or steal tens of thousands get a slap on the wrist.
Patriotism can be cool, there are (I hope) many things about your nation, it’s achievements and communities that you might be proud of.
Nationalism however, not so much. They’re closely related (and bad people will try to sneak Nationalism under the radar as Patriotism) but are very different things.
I don't know that I agree with this.
Perhaps coming from a place where the notion of "country" and "nation" don't overlap one to one makes it easier to see. I wouldn't really be able to tell you what "my nation" even is, and I wouldn't have it any other way.
I respect and take pride in culture in all its diversity and complexity, in democracy and in the general sense of human decency. Screw all the so-called nations trying to get me to vouch for them as a political unit, though. Political organization is for buiding roads and hospitals, not for pride.
I don’t know, it’s kind of like how people like to support their local football team. I think tribalism is somewhat ingrained in our brains. I can’t say it’s entirely logical, but it seems kind of baked-in to people at some level, like a leftover from pre-history.
Well, yeah, but so are plenty of other gross things and you don't see me out there raiding coastal villages just because we've spent longer taking things from each other by force than enforcing some peaceful, democratic social contract.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing, we have tribalism baked into us. It just happens to suck and we should strive to break past our built-in biases.
Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people’s accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.
Patriotism is very cool. Nationalism isn’t, which has mostly subverted the term patriot. A patriot stands up when their nation is doing something wrong. They don’t blindly believe they’re the best, they recognize that there’s things they can improve. They fight to make their country better, not to make others worse.
That'd be great if it didn't disagree with all available evidence. For all of history patriots have been either cannon fodder or abusive tyrants. On a long enough trajectory, almost inevitably nationalists and eventually imperialists.
One could argue that, much like some flavors of political utopia, internationalism has the advantage of never having been implemented in any practical sense, so they have less of a challenge proving their positive impact, but I'll take it anyway.
Regardless, I find that "making their country better" should be a distant second to "making the world better", and perhaps a close third behind "making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better".
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist. I believe in well structured, effective democratic governments. Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don't have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It's all administrative stuff as far as I'm concerned.
I find this statement odd. So you think it’s best to start local, right? OK, so next from your immediate community, you should expand out, eventually to country, then to world, right? Isn’t that the logical progression. From more influence to less? Why is your priority jumping all over?
Funnily enough, I am an Anarchist. I don’t know if I’d call myself a globalist, but probably. I also believe in well structured democratic governments. Those aren’t at odds with each other.
I think we’re in agreement. This isn’t counter to what I said. I’d say it’s in unison with it. People should work to improve their governments in any way they can. They should try to reshape it to better represent them. That’s what a patriot would do, not just settle for the status quo and assume they’re the best possible version there can be.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that's what the word means.
I get it, particularly in countries where the nation state has overlapped more or less perfectly for a long time it's hard to shed the emotional attachment, but there's no need for it.
See, the reason I go from small to international is precisely that the nation state takes care of itself. The world has agreed that it's the natural resting place of sovereignty and every other scale of governance or administration os derived from it. I don't like that much. I don't resent it, but I also don't give it immediate precedence over any other scale of government.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I'm not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration. If anything, it's the level where the most people decide to infringe on each other's business just because they feel they have a right to ownership over that national identity. I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
The land (and people), but not necessarily the state.
(The term state ahead is really annoying.)
Maybe part of it comes from being in the US, where we have a weird form of double governance of the “state” and “federal” governments. Which state are we loyal too, because they’re both ours? It makes things more malleable. The states could agree to form a totally new federal government if they wanted to.
There are multiple definitions of country. Some don’t care about the state that defines the borders. Your country is the land where you were born, not the state necessarily. One example that comes to mind in the US, which spans multiple states, is “Appalachia.” Appalachian people are a broad culture group who live in the Appalachian mountain region, and are distinct from the states they reside, and the larger US obviously. They are countrymen of each other.
No, the problem is some other people have changed the term to mean nationalist. For example, in the US, people were called patriots for fighting for the people in the colonies against the state that controlled them (Britain). They didn’t approve of the state and wanted to improve it, so they fought to change it and left the former state that was controlling them. Patriotism doesn’t have to be blind support of a state, and I’d argue that isn’t patriotism, because you aren’t defending it from bad actors/actions.
The etymology of the term is certainly much older than the nation-state, but also entirely disconnected from modern meanings (or ironic/facetious, which I do appreciate). There is just no original, clean, virtuous instance of "patriot" dislodged from the nationalist undertones. It simply has never existed.
The mistake you're making is assuming that US revolutionaries weren't nationalists or were praiseworthy or fundamentally different than British colonists. We're going to disagree on that one. I mean, never mind that they didn't invent the term or that their whitewashing of it was self-serving. Even if your timeline of events was true, I despise their patriotism as much as anybody else's. US revolutionaries weren't some ideal version of a patriot, they were nationalist independentists who happened to borrow some French revolutionary ideas about the liberal democratic state-nation organization slightly earlier than their previous administration did (and perhaps due to the first draft nature of the thing, slightly worse, too).
I won't judge them by modern standards, but I also absolutely, entirely refuse to sacralize them or idealize them. They were what they were, and they are absolutely not the thing that's going to give patriotism a good name.
You’re putting words in my mouth saying that I said American revolutionaries were great people. I never said such a thing, nor would I. Stop reading more into what I said than I actually said please.
They were people willing to lay their lives down for something they thought was worth fighting for. Not out of some ignorance that the status quo is the best option, but because they wanted to make changes to improve things for their community (and their self too, sure). That’s what patriotism is.
I’d argue that it’s necessarily not pristine. You have to be willing to get dirty. You don’t win a war with honor. You win it by killing other people until the other side isn’t fighting anymore. The same is true for any fight (not the killing necessarily, but being willing to do what needs to be done).
I just brought them up as an example of patriotism though. I’m not saying they’re a perfect example, just an example. This isn’t about the US, like you’re making it to be. You’re not arguing against the point. Your entire comment can be boiled down to “American revolutionaries are bad” but it doesn’t say really anything about patriotism.
Anyway, my point is, don’t let nationalists take the term. Maybe you don’t, but most people have positive opinions if the term. It’s easier and more useful to take the term back, because it isn’t necessarily a nationalist term. There are plenty of leftist patriots throughout history and the world. The right is good at using language as a weapon. We should be too, and we shouldn’t back off every time they try to use it.
OK, so it's just nationalism, then.
I have a real problem trying to wrap my head around where you're drawing that line. Is the problem that "patriots" honestly believe they're making things better? Because it seems to me that the difference that leaves between a nationalist and a patriot is whether you agree with them.
From the side of the victors it's easy to see slightly morally flawed patriots where, had things gone the other way, people would see nationalist zealots.
I'm also surprised at you bringing up left and right divides. There are plenty of violent nationalists across the spectrum. I mean, it's definitely true that traditional leftists were internationalists (hell, left-wing movements organized in "internationals" and that's also the name of their anthem). So historically yeah, right wingers are more patriotic/nationalistic, but there's no shortage of left wing nationalists, either.
I don't know, man, I struggle to share your very US-centric view, but also to see how anywhere in there is a distinction between those two terms. If patriots are just nationalists you like then you start to sound a lot like one.
The difference is basically a nationalist thinks they’re superior. They don’t care about facts or anything, the just know they are the best. A patriot knows they can learn from others and improve things. They’re trying to improve things, not just force themselves on others.
I know I’ve said this so many times now, but you keep just wanting to say it’s the same as nationalism. This is my last reply I think because you just keep insisting I’m saying things I’m not.
I used examples from the US. None of what I said had anything to do with the US outside of examples. I didn’t say this is only the case in the US or anything like that. Again, you keep putting words in my mouth. Argue in good faith or don’t at all. You’re just wasting both of our time.
OK, so the difference is a nationalist is a supremacist and a patriot is not.
So I'm back to my original statement, then. Patriotism sucks. Call it what you want, but allegiance to specifically a nation, nation-state or whatever construct you're assigning special status is bad and I actively oppose it.
I'm not arguing in bad faith, I'm disagreeing. But you made it seem like we don't actually disagree and like you had a distinction that made patriotism not match the thing I'm saying is bad, so I want to understand if that's the case. It doesn't seem to be the case. You think patriotism is not a problem and think my negative characterization is of nationalism instead.
Let me be clear, it is not.
The patriotism you're talking about? The lovey-dovey "improve your country and learn from others" patriotism? It sucks. That's what I'm saying here.
I'm also saying it's just whitewashed nationalism and that your distinction between supremacist nationalism and patriotic nationalism is superficial at best an non-existent at worst. Sure, not all nationalists or patriots are equally toxic, but that doesn't mean the concept of patriotism is salvageable into something positive.
You owe no allegiance to your nation, beyond what ties you culturally to the groups of people that live within it. Just like you don't owe allegiance to your hometown beyond the same concerns. Or, you know, to the planet.
You wanting to improve any one of those scales of human organization isn't any better or worse than the other, and the mere fact of implying any special relevance to one of them is a brand of nationalism I just don't find justified. It's a bit like religion. It can be well-intentioned and genuine, but in the long view of history it is undeniably an irrational, toxic force at the core of many atrocities. I will respect it and your right to participate in it, because the alternative is worse, but I won't take part in it and I don't think it's a good thing.
I mean, it’s just fireworks. The US does a lot more creepy jingoistic things than fireworks. How many other nations celebrate things by scaring all the local pets? It can’t be that uncommon…
Things, yeah. National symbology, not as much.
I'll say that I agree with you, though. Americans do way creepier stuff. The first time I attended a US sporting event it felt exactly like being trapped in some ritual for a religion I don't understand. They may as well have been ripping off some poor guy's still beating heart before lowering him into lava and watching it spontaneously burst into flame, for all I cared. I genuinely didn't know what to do with myself for the entire duration of the thing.
I've never been to school there, either. I imagine watching a bunch of children recite their daily indoctrinations must be creepy AF. I'm not sure if it actually happens, though. It's never in American movies.
My friends and I use it as an excuse to have a get together. None of us use it to celebrate the United States or its independence.
I’ll make a nice meal and reflect on what’s driving us further from the country we’re supposed to be. Thinking of it more like memorial day until there’s something to celebrate again.
I’m excited, it’s British Thanksgiving!
Britains, thanks for giving up.
Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. Nobody has ever liked everything about the US. Not even George Washington. If you can’t appreciate the good about the country just because you’re paying attention to the bad currently then you should have never celebrated it in the first place because the bad was always there.
The things you dont like about America don’t have to be your complete view of the country or its history. If there is even a small thing you have ever liked about the country then the 4th is for celebrating that.
Celebrate our victories. Celebrate our culture and our successes. Celebrate how mad people are going to be at you for celebrating. Celebrate that there are like-minded people elsewhere in the country. Real Americans in hard times and with doubts. Celebrate our history and our positive contributions to the rest of the world.
Celebrate a possible and hopeful future of what comes after.
This, but OP, I think, pointed to the issue maybe without realizing it:
If you feel you are just a.cog in a capitalist machine and not a citizen of a country, why would you celebrate?
It feels like Fox news and all the wedge issues have done their work and destroyed our sense of collective citizenship. Now the GOP is doing their corporate owners' bidding.
I do feel like a cog. I don’t feel like a valued citizen – I just feel like some schmuck the administration and/or multinational corporations can siphon money from. The attitude of the USA doesn’t feel like “Let’s work together to make a great place!” Lately, it feels more to me like “Fuck everyone else, I want to get paid!”
It feels almost abusive.
One of the craziest things to me is it’s 100% demonstrable the USA spends some of the most money per person on health care and does not get anywhere close to the top outcomes in health care, but if you ask people on the street, many of them will say USA is #1 in healthcare.
That’s the point where patriotism turns the corner into delusion.
I liked when we stopped putting immigrants in interment camps after WWII. They’re building new one now so what am I meant to celebrate again?
I’m sorry but that makes me vomit in my mouth thinking about it. There is NOTHING good or right with this nation. Genocide against the natives, slavery, bigotry & ignorance, and then endless wars and division. This nation is the United Snake.
I’m sorry your view of things is so bleak. I’ll fire off an Excalibur round for you Friday.
i’m also staying home. if someone “how dare you!”'s you, tell them you like celebrating not-fascist countries.
personally, i think i’ll adopt and celebrate mexico’s holidays
We used to have porch lights twinkling in red, white, and blue all July. This year, we’re just flashing blue adamently. And that only because our lights can’t radiate black.
Careful, you might get mistaken for Thin Blue Line folks.
The last patriotism got squeezed out of me a good decade ago.
I could give two shits about this holiday.
Celebrating America hasn’t been something to be proud of since before 2001. We had a couple of high points during Obama, but nothing that tipped the scales.
I’m personally disgusted by this place, and anytime I see someone with an American flag anywhere on their person or property, I immediately assume they’re a conservative and I think lesser of them. I know that this isn’t a reality, but that is what the American flag means to me, and I assume quite a few others.
Absolutely like that for me. Or Christians. If I know you’re a Christian within 15 min of meeting you, we are not going to be friends.
There a very few notably religious people that I associate with. I have a coworker that was a pastor for years and is still religious. He approaches it in the way I think it should be. We discuss religion as a theory, he doesn’t push or tell people what to believe. His belief is that God has his plans and that’s between him and each person. If every religious person lived like him, I’d have a lot less issue with it. I don’t agree with many of his other beliefs that are born from his religious background, but he’s not trying to impose them on anyone or prevent anyone from living their lives.
Other than him, and even still sometimes him, I agree with you. It’s like a scarlet letter that was put on volunteerily to say, “hey, I’m a dick and my beliefs are correct and apply to everyone.”
Honestly as a religious person myself I’m constantly disgusted this isn’t the norm.
If the topic of religion ever comes up, the theory is my favourite conversation. I’m not here to sell you on my view of God, and I don’t want you to sell me on yours. It’s two sides of the same frankly quite interesting coin, and I like learning about the different ways people do things - but I’m not here to make you do things my way. That would be wrong.
And unless the topic comes up organically, it doesn’t fucking matter. We can work together or be best mates or whatever and unless you asked, you’d never have to know I was religious.
In my lifetime, I’ve met ONE very religious Christian who wasn’t a hypocrite. ONE. He was a very nice guy, though, and I hope he and his family are doing well.
The remaining 99.9% of the time, I’m absolutely with you.
The people who complain the loudest about disrespecting the flag are the same people who ruined it in the first place.
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/2694362b-7fb9-452f-b631-d8d4e5c013c3.jpeg">
Burning it in a discarded toilet next to a truck stop is less disrespectful than this.
If those people didn’t have
hippcrasyhypocrisy, they’d have nothing… Well, they’d still have racism, bigotry, and a bunch of other shitty attributes I guess.hypocrisy. It is a really weirdly-spelled word.
Lol, I did butcher it. I only Lemmy from my phone, so I’m far more inclined to have typos. When I typed that I remember starting it and clicking on the suggestion to auto fill, but I must not clicked where I thought.
I haven’t believed in America in a few years now. Certainly not since the pandemic. As far as I’m concerned, the state I’m from is the only place I owe any allegiance to. The other states can go fuck themselves, especially the red ones
I haven’t gone to see fireworks in a few years. Recently I just go to Walmart and buy some big packs and let my kids enjoy lighting them off and just having fun. Plus the long weekend is awesome.
Havent felt proud to be an American in a long while. I’m proud of loving thy neighbor as myself, not lining the pockets of billionaires. I hate that I’m powerless to do much. Representative democracy? My ass. No one represents me. They’re all aristocrats. “it’s one banana, Michael. What could it cost, $10?”
I’m not bitter about it at all. /s
I’m gonna be drunk enough to quiet the fireworks. Every 4th in LA, it’s like a war zone.
I would be very concerned about anybody who is feeling patriotic this year
being hopeful and not having given up is one thing. but patriotic? entirely shameful
Right now I’d call my mood more embarrassed than patriotic.
I believe you’re supposed to fly a flag upside down in times of distress.
I think it would be wildly powerful for some cities to flip their flags for the 4th.
I’ve never had a flag out front of my house.
The day that orange fucker kicks the bucket, I’m putting in a flagpole and flying that bitch at full mast.
My shotgun’s flag is nailed upside down.
You know what will make you feel better? Learn about early American history, specifically the Revolutionary War and the period shortly before it. Ordinary citizens conquered one of the most powerful militaries in the world. Ordinary citizens. People like you and me. There was no “perfect savior” to lead them, either - George Washington was in over his head at first, but was smart enough to learn from his mistakes.
What’s going on now is nothing to celebrate, but the ani-establishment heroes of the past certainly are.
The Regulator Movement in North Carolina, also known as the Regulator Insurrection, War of Regulation, and War of the Regulation, was an uprising in Provincial North Carolina from 1766 to 1771 in which citizens took up arms against colonial officials who they viewed as corrupt. Historians such as John Spencer Bassett argue that the Regulators did not wish to change the form or principle of their government, but simply wanted to make the colony’s political process more equal. They wanted better economic conditions for everyone, instead of a system that heavily benefited the colonial officials and their network of plantation owners mainly near the coast
During the American Revolution, many prominent Regulators became Loyalists, like James Hunter who fought at the Battle of Moore’s Creek Bridge. … The Regulators notably were never against the monarchy - their issue was with local corruption and elites abusing them.
Dunmore’s Proclamation was formally proclaimed on November 15. Its publication prompted between 800 and 2,000 slaves (from both Patriot and Loyalist owners) to run away and enlist with Dunmore. It also raised a furor among Virginia’s slave-owning elites (including those who had been sympathetic to Britain), to whom the possibility of a slave rebellion was a major fear.
Later British commanders over the course of the American Revolutionary War followed Dunmore’s model in enticing slaves to defect—the 1779 Philipsburg Proclamation, which applied across all the colonies, was more successful. By the end of the war, at least 20,000 slaves had escaped from plantations into British service
Shays’s Rebellion was an armed uprising in Western Massachusetts and Worcester in response to a debt crisis among the citizenry and in opposition to the state government’s increased efforts to collect taxes on both individuals and their trades.
When the Revolutionary War ended in 1783, Massachusetts merchants’ European business partners refused to extend lines of credit to them and insisted that they pay for goods with hard currency, despite the country-wide shortage of such currency. Merchants began to demand the same from their local business partners, including those operating in the market towns in the state’s interior. Many of these merchants passed on this demand to their customers, although Governor John Hancock did not impose hard currency demands on poorer borrowers and refused to actively prosecute the collection of delinquent taxes. The rural farming population was generally unable to meet the demands of merchants and the civil authorities, and some began to lose their land and other possessions when they were unable to fulfill their debt and tax obligations. This led to strong resentments against tax collectors and the courts, where creditors obtained judgments against debtors, and where tax collectors obtained judgments authorizing property seizures.
Just remember that the American Revolution was a bourgeois revolution that failed to address many of the underlying economic conditions plaguing the colonies from the outset. Yes, the American merchant class beat back the British Monarchists. But no, that wasn’t a happily-ever-after for the proletariat of the nascent nation.
People around the country have stood up to make change.
Our politicians haven’t done good for the people.
Take back the power.
Join a No Kings March on July 4th
Celebrate the awesome people of this country, join in.
We want massive change. Politicians may act deaf to anything but money. The money flow changes when we stand together
Celebrate the Birth Of Your Country By Blowing Up A Small Part Of It
Florida is well on its way
Patriotism is jingoism at this point. Haven’t felt that for decades.
Same I will be working on the 4th so I’ll just be making good hoilday pay while most of my trump supporting coworkers will be celebrating the downfall of this country. Fuck this shit, fuck everyone who is onboard with the current situation of this country. Stay safe everyone.
What the fuck would I have to be proud of? The US has been on a downward trend for a long time and that’s accelerating
I hear you and I agree
Yeah but before, we could eat BBQ and blow off fireworks and pretend like America is going to fix itself.
Literally nobody I know is doing a cook out.
We have some scheduled on July 12th.
What’s July 12th?
I read a few places (I am non american) that there will be no kings protests all over the states on July 4th.
www.usatoday.com/story/news/2025/…/84324250007/
time.com/…/anti-trump-administration-protests-uni…
Family is doing a get-together but if I hear any patriotic bullshit, I’m gone, but with them, it’s unlikely to even hear the holiday they’re gathering for mentioned. They just needed an excuse to party.
How about you stage a huge protest, and this time you don’t leave until Fuckwad McClowncar is out of the Whitehouse?
Not much of a social safety net. Take that much time off work and things are going to get uncomfortable pretty fast. Last I heard, it’s like 1/3 of America that is two paychecks away from losing their housing. It’s sad.
Rent costs half a month’s pay, so that checks out.
And what do you think will happen to pretty much all of them in one or two years time?
Come to think of it, i guess the US made a perfect system to quell protests; Just make it impossible for people to take time off work, nobody will be able to protest even your most sadistic fascist laws
Correct. Bread, circuses and riot police (optional).
Going to be spending the 4th building guillotines in my garage
Can I help?
The more the merrier
Yeah I’m just sick of all the greed and racism. I just want some MANSA (Make America not suck anymore)
I would like MANA (Make America Nice Again)
I think that’s normal considering everything going on.
By the way, I live in the CA bay area. Interestingly I went grocery shopping today and no kidding -I felt like I was in a small town in the midwest or something. I looked around and it was mostly older white people shopping, like you couldn’t help but notice. I told my bf, wtf are we in Idaho or something lol this doesn’t feel like the bay area?
I think there’s a combination of people being tired of increasing inflation and burnt out by the barrage of shit going on in the news. I don’t imagine minorities, particularly immigrant families are feeling very patriotic right now. Or people are straight up worried about ICE kidnappings. Which by the way, I heard from a neighbor that ICE has been walking into the hospital she works at and waiting outside to snatch people. Terrible…
I haven’t felt patriotic for July 4 since I was a teenager. And I grow more aliented every year.
Canadian here. I spent most of July 1 in bed! Was not feeling patriotic! Did not watch any fireworks.
I’m surprised there aren’t massive protests scheduled for July 4.
I believe there are
This is all I've talked about at work.
What are we supposed to take pride in specifically?
I suppose pride in our resilience--there is great potential to learn from our repetitious failures surely
I’m boycotting America this year.
Obama was the last president that made me believe the US was trending towards progress. He proved to be a let down on many issues but I was still hopeful that the next president will be better. On many issues the country seemed to be heading in the right direction, there was even a plan for a national high speed rail network.
He seems to be the pinnacle of US presidents. It has only been going down since him.
I just want my day off so I can have morning sex with my partner and set fireworks off with my kids.
bravely seating down
I’ve never felt patriotic. It’s not like I chose to be here and, frankly, the more I learned about the rest of the world, the more I dislike about my own home.
Also fireworks are boring af unless you’re manipulating them to be more dangerous and blowing things up. Like hammering down a whistler and tossing it into a porta potty where an ICE agent is taking a shit.
It’s been almost 20 years since I felt patriotic. I mostly just comfort the dog and hope the yahoos don’t accidentally burn my house down.
No. Though I’m not American which may impact that
that’s really unamerican of you
Fuck yeah
I’m very proud to be a Californian. I’m utterly embarrassed to be an American.
I grew up with smart parents. We were never patriotic, this country has sucked for decades
yeah. but nothing to do with the country this is personal for me
Crossing my fingers for the local firework display barge catch fire in the bay. I just want a fun omen.
What, exactly, should I be proud of?
A nation that is moving backwards on human rights, increasing wealth inequality, and got really “mask off” about supporting genocide. A nation that is inherently dysfunctional and wreathed in corruption.
Oh goodness no. America has fallen, what the fuck does July 4th mean.
I haven’t been necessarily patriotic for a long time because why pledge allegiance to a single nation? The only reason I really care about July 4 is the fireworks. It’s more tradition than anything that I see them.
Anyways, both of his terms make me feel vindicated in not being patriotic in a country.
Patriotism leads to nationalism and racism. Fuck patriotism.
Not necessarily. Problem is when patriotism is not defined positively through your countries achievments and striving for self improvement, but through negativity to other people.
The US patriotism evidently revolves around the latter, so does most patriotism i have witnessed in European countries. I cant speak for so many other countries as i havent visited them enough.
So do any countries exhibit what you call positive patriotism, or is this purely a theoretical objection?
Countries as a whole? That is difficult to say. Typically you won’t here much from such countries, as they don’t enforce themselves on others.
I still have hope, until I am forced to emigrate I won’t be giving up on us. This country at one point saved my ancestors from doom, I believe it can again. It’s actually the “America sucks” crowd we need the most. In the words of AOC: resist, make them make us.
I’ll be staying home this year. There is nothing to celebrate. At this point I’d rather watch it all burn down.
I’m kinda the opposite, but I have the same reasons. I love where I live, I just wish they’d do better and I do what I can to help. I don’t need to wave a flag, people can see where I stand by what I do. If that’s not patriotism I don’t know what is.
Unless a large protest is happening in my city, I’m not planning to be outside on July 4.
Plan it
Flags have become a warning over the last decade or so about the person waving it. It no longer has the hope of a better America, solidarity, or welcome; it’s a symbol of a myopic, selfish, aggro, uneducated person full of performative nationalism and real hatreds.
Our independence was supposed to free the people of kings and tyrants. It’s been 249 years since 1776, we have undone what the Constitution authors fought for.
That’s what happens if you stick with a quarter-millennium old prototype of a semi-democratic system.
The constitution was revolutionary and ground-breaking, a quarter millennium ago. But still running that old piece of toilet paper as the basis of a democratic system in 2025 is like driving a Ford Model T today and claiming that it still is the latest and greatest automobile ever created.
In terms an American can understand: “Imagine a car…”
This is why we have constitutional amendments. It’s been extended a good bit over the last centuries. The tools are there but nobody wants to, or can agree on how to, use them.
Have you looked at the amendments? So far there have only been 27 of them over 236 years. Ten of them were created within a year of the constitution being created. They were basically Zero-Day-Patches, not actual amendments, and two amendments only exist to nullify each other (18 and 21) which leaves 15 amendments over 235 years (one of which was actually also created within the first year and only ratified 200 years later).
The last time an amendment was proposed was 54 years ago and the last one ratified was 33 years ago.
Not counting the Zero-Day-Patches, not a lot of these amendments actually change anything fundamental. Notable ones are 12 (governs the election of VP), 13-15 and 19 (civil rights), 17 (election of senators), 22 (president’s term limit) and 25 (succession of the president).
Notably absent from the amendments is anything that changes the core political system or electoral system.
Compare that to other countries. In the time that the US constitution hat 15 minor amendments, France had a total of 15 complete constitution re-writes, not even counting amendments. 15 full new constitutions.
Germany had 69 constitutional amendments since 1949 (76 years, so almost one amendment per year, compared to the 1/16 amendments per year in the USA).
But by far the biggest issue is that a constitutional amendment cannot actually fix fundamental systemic issues. The people who have the power to change the constitution came to power within the current system, so if they fundamentally change how the system works (e.g. by repairing the electoral system in a way that more than two parties can be relevant), they are directly cutting into their own power, so of course they won’t do that.
That’s what you need major constitutional crises for (like e.g. Europe after WW2), so that the constitution can be re-written from scratch, fixing the issues that lead to the crisis.
But the US has been too big to fail for too long and thus there never was anything big enough to take down the US so that it needed to be restarted from scratch. The closest they came to was the civil war, but they didn’t take the opportunity to actually overhaul the system. Probably because it was still too early and there wasn’t much of a precedent of how to build a better democratic system.
But who knows, at the current rate it might be likely that the US is quite close to another chance to re-write the constitution.
I always find irony in the fact that the US helped set up better forms of government in the countries it fought in WW2, Japan and Germany, than it could make better in its own country.
It does make sense though. The main motivator for politicians is power. That means, naturally political systems flow towards maximizing power for those in power, that’s just the natural progression.
To change this, major political upheavals are necessary, so basically events where the whole old leadership is tossed out and the new leadership can try to setup something to stop the same thing from happening again.
WW2 was perfect for that. All those countries were in need of a completely new political system and thus they could be built better from the ground up.
The US never had any event like that (apart maybe from the civil war).
To change the system without such an event, two thirds of all relevant politicians would have to vote for changing the system that brought them to power. Not likely to happen.
Call for independence from everything GOP and Trump on July 4th?
I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American.
I’m a-shamed to be an A-merican,
Where at least now I can’t see.
And I won’t forget the libs who cried,
Who gave that right to me.
Lemmy sings
well, at least you’ve got the knowledge that I’m proud of you for that
I find it reassuring that some people are not proud of grabbing random people off the street to send them to their death with a smile.
That’s the majority of Americans. Beyond what was almost certainly a stolen election (large scale, billionaire-bankrolled propaganda, campaigns, voter disenfranchisement, and probably voting machine manipulation), Trump’s disapproval rating since starting that shit has skyrocketed.
We are in an awful fascist quagmire of a situation that we are going to have to fight to free ourselves from, but that doesn’t mean that the actions of this administration actually represent us.
Yeah… feels like the meaning behind the holiday has been completely lost. It’s hard to celebrate when so many people are struggling with basic things like housing and healthcare.
As an immigrant to the US, I’ve always found the blind patriotism commonplace here to be very strange. It feels even more alienating now than ever before.
Common in an authoritarian, warmongering police state.
For them it’s invariably other countries that get this label, they can’t think outside the box bcs of their propaganda.
State-level patriotism is always bullshit to begin with.
That’s how you’re tricked into loyalty based on the most arbitrary reasons.
Be the messenger of humanity and get curious about the Universe. People are brothers, and there’s no pride in being born in one plot of land over the other.
If that’s your reaction we need even more murder jets to do a fly over and the already ridiculously sized freedom flags will get even bigger!
But seriously, patriotism is an unnatural artificial and cultivated concept.
Indeed to be used by the state.
The state should be you, the citizens.
The state should not exist. We are people of Earth, and we should not be divided by someone. Divided, we are powerless to make a global change, and those who divide us reap all the benefits of this bullshit system.
So we shouldn’t band together, to band together.
You should calm down your drug use IMO.
We should band together based on mutual respect and common responsibility, and not based on someone telling us who to band with and who not to.
The concept of nation-state doesn’t allow us to band with whoever we like, and calls to unite with people born in place X (and commonly against people born in place Y). The concept of state in general oversees and dictates our relationships more broadly.
Multitude of states all fostering loyalty to their rulers doesn’t allow many people to look at those of other nations as equals and fellows with shared global goals. Sure, messages of international peace are commonplace, but hey, we should definitely exclude those pesky Chinese/Russians/Americans/Ukrainians/Israelis/Palestinians/whatever!
When we categorize people by nations through the lens of state, we put easy labels that are far from true. If someone’s a Russian, he sure supports war in Ukraine. If someone’s American, he sure is personally responsible for all the immigrant scare. If someone’s born in Israel or China, clearly he’s all on board with genocide!
At the same time, state-level patriotism fosters coming to terms with terrible people within the nation. Sure, our billionaires might be at fault in some ways, but it’s better than other country’s evil and corrupt billionaires! Our rulers are wise leaders, their rulers are cruel autocrats! My neighbor is a terrible person, but at least he’s not one of those <input the nation with bad stereotypes>!
It forces us to make preference to people who may not deserve our support, who might be actively undermining our causes, it leads us to close our eyes on the sufferings of others outside our arbitrary group that doesn’t even share our views and goals.
Now, I know it doesn’t have to be that extreme, but patriotism is always showing preference to someone or something based on a very arbitrary characteristic, instead of honest and fair consideration. It’s an intentionally cultivated fallacy.
On a personal note, I’d rather avoid ad hominem attacks if you’d like to keep a good faith discussion running. And, FYI, I never take any drugs, not even alcohol.
Utopian nonsense
We can always do our best to make it closer.
Most people claim this to be Utopian, and then just try to tone it down in others, so their own compliance is not seen to themselves as weakness but rather “wisdom”. No - it is a surrender, an act of learned helplessness.
Sure, it’s hard to force politicians to abandon the concept of nations, and it’s hard to bring a revolt to a population so compliant.
But everyone can make personal steps.
First, admit that patriotism is bullshit. There is no ground to be patriotic, and nothing realistically unites you with your “nation”. You have more in common with a person of the same position on the other side of the globe than you have with the president of your very “own” country.
Second, watch your own preferences in people and what you factor in your decision. Maybe you give too much weight to where the person comes from? Is it that you label people in some way based on that characteristic alone?
Third, if you have the opportunity, form an international collective, reach out to specialists within other nations, or if you can’t, see if you can build a collective or even just a friend group with the immigrants around you.
Fourth - advocate for people in other countries, learn what they face, what they get to endure. For example - do you know that the deadliest of recent wars was not in Ukraine or Palestine, but in Ethiopia? What do you know about the current situation in Myanmar, aside from the Facebook drama? Did you consider supporting women rights’ causes in the Middle East?
Personal action and involvement will not allow you to fall for the traps the state tries to implant in your mind, and you’ll be personally responsible for a small, but proud piece of international cooperation - one that should become commonplace to the point when it wouldn’t make sense for anyone to draw divisions.
Human life is human life. Human suffering is human suffering - here or on the other side of the globe. The concepts of unity, hope, and cooperation are all universally recognized wherever you are. Why not step in?
You’re from the US? It smells like you see the whole world through that lens.
Nope, I’m from Russia.
But then again, where does that not have its place? Are people in Europe, say, universally welcoming to immigrants? Or maybe Asia is not full of xenophobia? Africa, at least?..
There are much better factors of unity than being on a certain plot of land.
Europe is quite accepting to immigration, but if you look for a country where no one dislikes foreigners, good luck!
What I wanted to say in the beginning is, you band together to form a government, for the people, by the people! The US one is kind of crap, the russian one is an authoritarian hell hole, likewise in china.
Here in Europe we complain all the time about “the government” but that is to make politicians change their policies, because we’ll vote them in if we like them (the policies) or vote them out if we dislike them. Works half-reasonable well (when the Kremlin doesn’t spew too much disinformation), better than any other system IMO.
You can’t do that in Russia, so I understand your frustration about “the government”.
Guess that’s why Europe has built defences against immigrants, and many European countries straight up rejected to accept them? And that’s why right-wingers with their anti-immigration policies win over more and more votes?
My point is, this is one of the consequences that comes with national identity. For some, it’s just unfair preference of “their” people and things, for others, it’s nationalism and xenophobia.
Blocking “disinformation” is also a slippery slope towards autocracy. Y’know, Russia did the same back in the day. I understand that it feels like a necessity amidst hybrid wars, but it’s bound to be problematic down the road.
Well it’s not all rosy, but today immigration has become a weaponized tool, the Kremlin pays immigrants to ship them over to the Baltic states, uses propaganda in all ways to sway people to vote on bad things etc.
I’m not saying the EU is some sort of haven, but it’s probably one of the better places.
I think you are spot on with nationalism etc. It’s a fucking plague. We have enough of everything but no no let’s not share it. Sigh.
About Russia though, they have always always been the bad ones (except 1991-2000? Maamybee), and we do a very very poor job of blocking their misinformation campaigns. It’s also way more powerful today with social media than it was just ten years ago.
So today we got what we got, we can’t just “remove” all governments in the EU for example, it would just lead to a disaster. Fighting for a better world? Yes, I’d love that.
Immigration being seen as a weapon has always bewildered me. If people come to your country, commonly running away from famine and war, and you see them as nothing but a weapon, something is seriously wrong. I am aware some countries like Finland are already fairly filled with immigrants, but Europe could use some more cooperation to solve this.
To my perspective, Russian government was not the bad one, it was a rival, as in yet another place being run by shitheads. Funnily enough, 1991-2000 was actually the time when liberties coming from Perestroika were tanked again, the country was destroyed against people’s will, and wild privatization combined with corruption has left millions in deep poverty and famine; crime arose. People had their homeland taken away from them before they could react, and they were intentionally kept clueless on what was going on. But it was also the time when Russia had better relations with Europe and the US, which is why this period is seen as “Russia being good”.
Removing all governments overnight is not feasible indeed. But we should admit the harms patriotic and, as a radical extension, nationalist models cause to society at large and our global cooperation, we should own up to what it means to hostility, warfare, and breeding idiots who make it worse for all of us. Every time someone tries to instill patriotic feelings within the population, they just want to make us more controllable and divided. We shouldn’t let them. And as an extension of that, we should advocate for direct democracy and gradual dissolution of government as a main controlling entity.
This doesn’t mean, however, that you can’t praise certain decisions made by your government. They can be objectively good!
Oh fuck my comment disappeared 😑
Edit:
I’m trying to recreate the long post:
Russia boats/ships/buss people from Africa to the Finnish border while simultaneously doing “immigrants Violent & bad” psyops is what I meant as using immigration as war.
After peristroika we was relieved not because you were friendly with the US/ Europe but 1) no more hot or cold war (you’d be surprised how we saw Russia from our side, an agressive dictatorship on our border basically) 2) A shot at democracy/freedon for the russian people (that they blew.)
Oh fuck my comment disappeared 😑
Edit:
I’m trying to recreate the long post:
Russia boats/ships/buss people from Africa to the Finnish border while simultaneously doing “immigrants Violent & bad” psyops is what I meant as using immigration as war.
After peristroika we was relieved not because you were friendly with the US/ Europe but 1) no more hot or cold war (you’d be surprised how we saw Russia from our side, an agressive dictatorship on our border basically) 2) A shot at democracy/freedon for the russian people (that they blew.)
For the rest I’m quite on board, with some caveats ofc. We need a government because everyone can’t know everything, we need trusted people to run our schools, hospitals, nuclear plants and so on. For the rest? Yeah bring that power down to the people!
Oh, I know that feeling! Sorry to know the long comment is gone, happened to me more than once.
Oh, so you attribute the rise of Finnish right-wing to Russia as well, as in Russian agencies artificially create a wave of anti-immigration and then send immigrants in? Honestly, with all the real damage Russia has done, I feel like it is used as a scapegoat here; among a few reasonably confirmed cases (mostly of Russia killing dissidents abroad etc.), there is a sea of practically baseless speculation. Last time I saw this was a few days ago, when German military vehicles burned and journalists attributed it to Russia because some random pro-Russia Telegram channel mentioned it (and did so with clear factual errors that are alone enough to dismiss it).
Cold war, we should remember, was a two-sided conflict. It was not good vs evil, it was capitalist world full of red scare and propaganda vs communist block full of authoritarianism and, again, propaganda. Both sides could do much more to maintain peace, it’s just that one side has eventually collapsed, leaving the other to rule the world and write history books. And as much as Europe was concerned about USSR being on their doorsteps, so was USSR concerned about militarization of Europe with the aid of the US. That’s what this entire showoff is based on; it’s not a one-sided show of intimidation, and, arguably, both sides would rather not have it. Moreover, it was started by the US swinging nuclear arms around, and then USSR jumped along.
I’m not sure what you consider to be a shot of democracy - perestroika itself or the dissolution of the Soviet Union? In first case, yes, it was a welcome change, but as some of the Soviet republics, particularly in the Baltics, were essentially held in by force and censorship, it was a catalyst for the future dissolution, which is likely why it wasn’t done sooner. Dissolution itself brought a lot of freedom to the former republics which were not super fond of being Soviet to begin with, but was a disaster for Russia, Belarus, and new states in the Middle East. In the latter, there was nothing to blow as there was nothing democratic about them to begin with - it was just a bunch of new dictators.
Speaking of Russia in particular, while trying to show a face of democratic change, Yeltsin has consolidated power by creating puppet parties (including a puppet Communist party), silencing opposition by not letting them into main federal TV channels that were the main information source at the time, and destroying existing democratic institutions, sometimes with actual military force (see the assault on Congress of People’s Deputies). By the time Putin (heavily endorsed by Yeltsin as the new leader of the country) got to rule Russia, it was already heavily in United Russia party’s grip. Make no mistake - this was a show of democracy designed to be blown. And, sure, it was an easy play, as Russians by then never really knew the times they, and not someone in the high cabinets, could vote someone in.
We should certainly have experts running and planning critical parts of the economy, but we should also make sure it’s as hard to corrupt as possible. Governments are prone of injecting propaganda in schools we both care about, cutting medical spending, and attacking nuclear plants during the wars. If we should have governments at all, they should either work through as much of direct democracy and self-organizing as opposed to representative power (which is quite close to anarchy), or through careful and open computerized planning with active input of the people. The global political goals in the meantime should shift towards cooperation and integration on all levels, so that one plot of land uniting against the other plot of land would look as absurd as it actually is.
Dude, it’s always Russia. Hybrid war, hot war, cold war, it’s always Russia. Maybe you can find someone falsely blaming Russia for something, especially on the internet, but 99.9% of the time the trace goes back to the good old Kremlin.
BTW Finland was just an example, it mostly happened in the baltics.
Now, if you try to portray the cold war as some “both sides” you need to get your head out of the russian propaganda (kind of funny that you are protecting the country you live in).
BTW I grew up in a country between the NATO and the Warsaw Pact, so I was there and I saw it all. If I had to jump in a plane and go live in the USA or the URSS I wouldn’t have hesitated a second, no one would have. Russia is a invasive dictatorship hellhole and has aways been, we had some hope after the glasnost but yeah Russia blew it.
That is only in theory, like the copcept of democracy
Always have been, always will be.
Don’t worry, once they deported or killed all the
Jewsillegals the prices will surely come down.You’re not a wallet. You’re an automaton producing value for capitalists.
They dribble a little money into your wallet each fortnight so you can buy subscriptions and delivered take away.
Fair.
4th of July? You mean the Ungrateful Colonists Insurgence Day?
As if there was a reason to celebate that cancer country any other year
I thought you guys don’t celebrate it that much any more? Heard it got replaced with a Trump Birthday Military Parade Day or someshit. And it sucked so much that nobody is doing holidays anymore. Sorry, I’m in Europe, the news are coming in slowly from the US these days
Not sure what you’re referring to, but the 4th hasn’t really changed. Maybe you’re confusing it with the (laughable) military parade Trump did for his own birthday?
Personally I’ve long found patriotism to be a pretty abhorrent concept, but I’ve always enjoyed the opportunity to spend time with my family regardless. To me, the 4th is much more about community than it is the country. And while this country is fucking awful, I do have a pretty great community around me that I’m grateful for.
Aww. Please celebrate - don’t give the orange turd the satisfaction of destroying yet more American culture. Also, I won’t be happy posting my favourite annual meme:
<img alt="" src="https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/dbafa8e2-f6a1-451b-921f-e9de492aac96.jpeg">
But celebrate what? The opening of our concentration camps and the country’s fall to the stupidest dictator imaginable? I suppose we could drink to the ashes…
I’ll celebrate a day I don’t have to go to work
Celebrate y’all getting together and protesting tyranny
The ONLY reason I give a shit about July 4th this year is that it’s a long weekend and the last chance we’ll have to spend with family before we move out of state in two weeks.
I’m even glad it’s supposed to rain the entire time, so I won’t even feel pressured to celebrate with fireworks!
I’m going out to a march on the 4th of July. We’re protesting for independence from America
I get double pay for the holiday, yay!
Me, but not from USA, so…
I’m not doing anything for the forth. Fuck America, I am not celebrating my country, because my country wants me dead. Fuck em.
Yup.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, but HOW THE FUCK could I EVER be proud of this country anymore??? We’ve done nothing to deserve respect or patriotism.
Why are you attacking a person who obviously is opposed to the current administration? Like, I understand your sentiment, but this person ain’t the one.
The “every single American is culpable and therefore my bigotry is excused” energy is getting wild.
Hey, you remember when you didn’t vote for something and it still happened? Yeah, your should be blamed for it none the less.
Then maybe it’s a day to protest, not to celebrate. Maybe the best way could have been doing a full strike that stopped the country and doing also protests in the streets.
While walking the dog I keep tabs on houses that have flags up, and there has been an uptick for about a month now. I assume it’s for the 4th, but I’m curious who will keep their flags up.
I’ve also noticed that some people keep putting theirs up then taking them down, and I wonder what changes…
I hope you keep this energy when your country does something stupid that you don’t agree with.
I think you mean No Kings Day.
I’m a pyro by nature, and love things that go boom. But yeah, not doing anything tomorrow.
There’s nothing left to be proud of. Just vague platitudes about freedom and performative military worship that have been socially beaten into people since 2001. I have no faith remaining in my fellow countrymen. I am unable to clearly see a future for myself living here as I am now. What is left to be patriotic about?
All the true patriots are dead. They were buried long ago. Modern patriotism is a marketing gimmick. I refuse to be a party to it.
The only celebration I will engage in this year is protest or subversive guerilla action
I don’t even like to call myself American. I’m a veteran, and it turned me off of America more than anything.
Being a Brit, for years I’ve jokingly referred to the 4th of July as ‘Rebellion Day’ to my USian friends. Not sure I’m joking any more, just hopeful. Go on. Rebel!
Overthrow your tyrannical government, you won’t.
Can’t type… Robot AI dog is following me…gotta keep running. Freedom!
How many will die on July 4th? What parade will be targeted? Who will be the next mass murderer? Stay home for your safety people. Too many crazies out there now to do anything in public.
Not at all, but I’ll take the paid day off
I live abroad, so I can just ignore the whole stupid thing. 😄
I’m traveling outside the US. Got a decent price on the flights too
I’ve decided to actively take the flag back from conservatives. There are some good ideals and good people in this country, and good people who fought for those ideals. I’m not proud of most of what the government has done and all of what it is doing now, but I can be proud of the people who want to get along with everyone and fight for diversity and freedom and the good things that should be fought for.
I’m a USAF vet. My ancestors literally fought in the revolutionary war, and signed The Declaration of Independence. I’m going through the motions this year, but I don’t feel it at all. I’m pissed that we’re multiple stages into a nazi regime. I’m profoundly flabbergasted at how anyone could be for this. How anyone that is for it, can’t see that they’re going to be the “out” party. Some already are seeing it.
I’m incredibly disappointed that the news has gotten so out of touch that they just rolled over and lapped up the rhetoric. Local news is all sunshine and rainbows while ICE kidnaps people, and a corrupt POtuS breaks the constitution left and right. While he deploys military against its own citizens. While rights are stripped, aided by a corrupt SCOTUS. While the rich get richer off of our backs. While the checks and balances are obliterated.
stop “going through the motions,” then? do something?? anything???
idk tbh anytime i see someone act as surprised as you are at this point it’s someone who believed, strongly, in the noble lies fed to us. i don’t mean to judge you pointedly, but knowing you’re an air force vet… doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in the counterpoint to that opinion.
i came from a family with a lot of military brats so im confident in saying 99% of people who enlist are either doing so out of economic desperation (aka coercion) or they’re dumb enough to believe the shit the recruiters/propoganda/government spew. if i offend… that’s fine. i have respect for the trauma, both physical and mental, that vets have gone through but i think you guys aren’t just cogs in a machine and are morally culpable for what you’re involved in doing. i respect the people on an individual basis, but spit on the org as a whole.
anyway idk not to babble on and on but point being maybe the euros are right when they say none of us have the balls to do what needs to be done. people won’t even say what needs to be said because they fear losing their jobs and careers due to corporate, dystopic surveillance of their every word. it’s the most milquetoast acceptance of literal fascism in history and your comment and the behavior you espouse is exactly why they’re able to do it.
don’t get me wrong, i’m not casting stones. i am not without sin either. i’m sitting here shitposting on the internet instead of marching. i’m also part of the problem; but it’s time we start calling it out instead of getting offended at the notion we are just letting it happen.
in this spirit i’ll be the first to say. fuck ice. i won’t self-police myself for thought crime anymore. the first chance i get to kill an ice agent im taking, and every true fucking patriot should feel the same. it’s time to water the tree of liberty, man.
I see where you’re at. I take no offense. I definitely could be doing more. I can’t work either, so it isn’t like I don’t have the time. Physical issues are my only real hold back. My enlistment was fear of being trapped in an abusive home, as well as feeling like high school didn’t offer enough of an education to prepare me. We both have the luxury of doing what we’re doing.
However, I offer a few counter points.
What does killing 1 ICE “officer” accomplish? How does that affect change in the right direction? Does this cause others to do the same and follow suit?
We need more that I don’t think we’re at the point of accomplishing yet. We need a full on civil war. One that I’m not sure how we get to kick off, all at the same time, all across the nation, without it fizzling out quickly.
The problem then comes in how to coordinate that. How do we communicate, nation wide, in a way that is not vulnerable to monitoring and disruption by the very place we’re trying to change? How do we coordinate arming and supplies? How do we coordinate movements and operations?
We can’t stop at just POtuS either. 99% of it needs to go. Dem leadership has been largely sitting on the bloody nubs that they try to “reach across the aisle” with. SCOTUS and most all other courts are compromised. Plus the billionaires, the behind the scenes assholes, and even state and local governments. It all needs a clean sweep.
We have too comfortable of a life. We’re too complacent. We were too far removed from the fascism that spilled over in Europe. We were too padded. It didn’t really hit us, in either world war, back here. Our troops came back home and went back to regular life as usual. We had a civil war, but we didn’t punish any of the perpetrators. That led us right back where we’re at. At the time though, you could survive on your own. Support a family off of the land. There wasn’t much of an infrastructure. There was no pain to be felt by the general populace (loss of life aside).
I do think we’ll get to full on armed conflict. I feel as though mid terms will be the kicker. I just don’t know if armed conflict is where we’re at yet. Not that I don’t think we should be. It’s that the general populace is too comfortable. We, apparently, need our lives to hurt more. To be affected more. Is it sad? Absolutely. Is it very much against everything that the founding fathers envisioned, especially when drafting up the 2nd? Absolutely. They would be completely disgusted with all of us. Myself included.
I agree with most everything you said here, it’s a good analysis. Sorry for being a bit of a reactionary this morning. Not sure why I was on such a shit-slinging vibe earlier but I’m willing to own up to it.
I would see a civil war, or something like it, as the first “real,” and rational opportunity for an individual to kill an ICE agent. In my mind, doing so as a sort of lonewolf is so absurdly stupid as to not be considerable but I understand that’s probably not a reasonable take these days anymore when it comes to discourse in the commons. Therein is the sociopolitical paradox you mentioned about what actually sparks the powderkeg. In short, I think we’re saying about the same thing in principle, I’m just an edgelord before noon I guess lmao.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I always appreciate discourse. Meet all sorts of cool people on lemmy. Hope life has more in store for you, for all of us. Good luck!
Absolutely no shade my friend. I am absolutely as pissed off as you are. I really wish it would make a difference. Many of us do. It just isn’t quite there yet. The stew is close, we just need the vegetables to get ready.
I love the discourse as well. We don’t get a feel for everyone’s feelings towards things when we don’t. Others may even bring up things we hadn’t thought about, or an angle we didn’t see.
Good luck to you as well!
The first act that started the Tunisian “Arab Spring” was just one street seller being killed by the police.
There is no “correct” spark. And nobody knows what will spark a war until it has happened.
Maybe some guy that gets shot by ICE, maybe some guy that kills an ICE thug, maybe something else.
The fix is not killing ICE officers.
The civil rights movements of the 60s, Jim Crow, etc, won by being willing to be beaten. By voluntarily entering a cafe and sitting there waiting to be served like a human being, meanwhile being willing to be called names, dropped food and drinks onto them, burnt with cigarettes, abused.
That willingness and perseverance in wanting to be recognised as the human beings they are awoke the rest of the population.
Pacifist demonstrations and matches are a way to achieve that. They are displays for your fellow colleagues, not for the government you want to depose. Make clear that they are pacifist. Prepare and inform the people going. Sit down if you are charged. Stop violent people there. Etc. Make obvious that the fascist are fascists that way and say and invigorate people to your side.
I find the bit about believing the lies we’re fed as somewhat naive. We’re all on a journey, and everyone starts in a different place, with unique foundations.
My current opinions vary wildly from those held 20 years ago. Change is a good thing, and I think it should be expected as the norm.
If you want to be effective at changing the system, killing random ICE Nazis won’t do it. Everyone here is advocating peaceful protest, but that also won’t do it - or at least, not by itself.
Instead, consider direct action - sabotage of the means of production that prop up the fascist state.
Take a listen to Rev Left’s interview with Palestine Action to learn what I’m talking about: revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/size/5/?search=…
Yep. Staying home, donating, or protesting if something’s going on. It’s just a long weekend to me now. No flag flying at this home for sure… unless it’s a No Kings flag.
i never understood how people especially can be proud of once country. in Europe being a patriot is very much frowned upon.
FYI the Women’s March org is hosting “Free America” protests for the July 4th weekend. See the Women’s March site here. Some other groups may be organizing protests too, but from what I’ve read the WM ones are probably the biggest.
If there’s not a scheduled protest nearby there’s always the option to make a sign and take to a street corner for a solo protest. If you’re feeling especially ambitious there’s always making a giant sign to prop up against the chain link at an interstate overpass (I’ve never done this but it looks fun).
I would welcome a brain drain to Europe.
Nobody i know is hosting or attending a formal celebration, aside from one person attending a “Fuck Trump” bbq instead.
it's just a day off to me, a chance to get wasted lol
Yep, not celebratin shit. Wife wants to invite friends over mostly cuz it’s a free day off.
I’m feeling patriotic enough to burn US flags and I’m not even from the US!
I’m not celebrating patriotism. I’m celebrating a 3 day weekend.
Not American. But I don’t even know when my country’s national day is. I know there’s one because they always do a military parade with the king and always something goes wrong, and we laugh about it. But I can even tell what day it is until I see it on the news.
You have a good king/gov if they arent bashing swallow patriotism into your skull in school… where are you from?
Spain.
King is a moron, but happily he is just politically powerless.
I mean, there is that kind of nationalism patriots here. We have our share of people talking about “bringing back the spanish empire” or “bring back Franco”. And they surely obsess about national day. I just don’t care.
Con todo el enriedo con separatistas qué hay en España hubiera esperado un mayor empuje nacionalista en las escuelas… bien por españa. Acá en Argentina es así, nacionalismo ciego y revisionismo en las escuelas, pero revisionismo selectivo. Un maldito asco.
Traer de vuelta a Franco? Es joda? Pensé que era re contra taboo. Acá a veces se dice “con videla estábamos mejor” pero es más en chiste para decir que hay que mandar todo a la mierda… (espero)
Igual, hagan lo que quieran, yo les tengo un amor ciego a ustedes…
#ConLaCasaDeAustriaEstabamosMejor
Algo ha habido pero no tanto como pudieras imaginar. También yo siempre he hecho oidos sordos, así que igual hay más de lo que yo he visto.
Pero lo de Franco, por desgracia sí, mucha gente dice la frase típica “con Franco estábamos mejor”. Algunos lo dicen enserio, otros para molestar. Pero es preocupante. Sobre todo cuando se escucha entre los más jóvenes.
Heh, I was thinking the same, didn’t know exactly when the day was. So maybe we indeed have something going on for ouselves.
Canadian here and we celebrated the fuck out of our national holiday which just passed. We have a stronger feeling of solidarity than we’ve felt in a long time. Despite the threats of annexation and shifting tariffs, we are feeling more hopeful than we have in many years, possibly because we’re making new friends in the global sandbox and coming into our own power now instead of constantly kowtowing to the USA in all matters.
Except a few folks in Alberta who would love to be part of the modern Nazi regime. Fuck them, tho.
Personally, I’m not feeling that same vibe. I think the solidarity against the US is a very good thing, but the sheer amount of ways Canada is just “America Light” is very depressing. Its to the point that our flag has been so sullied by absolutely shit tier movements in the last 5 years that I can’t stand to see it anymore.
Every time I see a private flag pole, bumper stickers or anything kind of patriotic merch my knee jerk reaction is “I bet this dude’s a fuckwad.” I know that I’m painting with a huge and shitty brush but I just can’t even fight against it anymore. I know it’s wrong. I just don’t care, and that makes me sad.
I live comfortably here, but given even a minutely convenient reason to emigrate I think I’d take it.
Canada is a car infested, anti-human shit hole just like America. To paraphrase Steve Harris of Iron Maiden a bit “We oil the jaws of the
warcapitalist machine and feed it with ourbabiesimmigrants.”I’ve felt like that for years, too. But Canadians boycotting en masses, then soundly rejecting mini-Trump has given me hope. Since then, our leader has been reaching out to other countries to form new relationships and deals. We just signed a rare earth minerals deal with Greenland, of all places.
Yes, Canada has been hamstrung by US demands but the vice-grip they’ve had over us has deteriorated. This wouldn’t have happened if not every single other country in the world was going through the same thing. So it feels a bit like a rebirth to me, with the possibility of finally being able to come into our own as a nation.
I’ve never celebrated the 4th of July because I’ve been patriotic, I’ve done it because it’s fun. When I stopped believing in God I didn’t stop celebrating Christmas. In the same way Christmas is about gifts and seeing family, the 4th of July is about fireworks and seeing friends.
Sounds like a great day for a false flag attack to solidify the masses against a perceived threat.
Lot of people I know are staying home, Generally on the 4th, for the last decade trumpers get black out drunk and end up killing people with their boats and gaint trucks.
Honestly nationalism for the US has always been kinda gross to me. We’ve never really had much to be proud of as a nation historically.
Well in that case there probably isn’t a single nation ever that should be proud.
Our country is under MAGA Nazis rule, and that is nothing to celebrate. Independence Day should be a Day of Resistance, until the MAGA Nazis lose their control.
why celebrate independence day?
it was supposed to be about gaining independence from tyranny.
We’re back with kings and tyrants.
Why feel patriotic for a country that literally stole/claimed what wasn’t theirs to being with? Never felt such a thing for this so called “first world”.
Whose was it? At what point in history was ownership established and why was it not the previously displaced people’s instead? How long does it take to establish ownership, and what means are justified to do so? Who exactly is the United States anyway?
World history for millennia has shown that the conquerors write the rules. Ownership is established immediately upon victory. It matters not if you’re a yanomamo tribe living 1000 years ago or a modern military 1st world country. The victors write the rules.
Isn’t the whole point of civilization to get away from the tyranny of men with sharp sticks? We can’t let the crimes of our ancestors justify modern crimes.
Feeling patriotic towards a country of traitors.
US best values have been lost long time ago.
I imagine almost everyone who’s not American, like 95.5% of the world population.
Best day to begin taking your country back. Too bad the couch is so comfy.
You know there are people out there who are actually getting off their couch and fighting?Active revolution isn’t for everyone, but you don’t have to keep normalizing laziness and cowardice. You can instead use your voice to encourage action.
Good energy here.
Thank you.
I have. I get berated. Fuck america.
Because of Patriotism they had it so easy to turn it into Nationalism and now turn it to fascism.
I’m celebrating Happy Fireworks Day!
I’ve got new neighbors that are probably about to hear, “Fire in the hole!” unironically for the first time. You can actually see the shockwave from my blackpowder signal cannon. Good chance the cops show up.
I usually use the cannon to vaporize 10oz of kerosene for a nice mushroom cloud of fire, but I’ll have to see how it goes.
I’m a pyro.
Y’all wear safety glasses if having bottle rocket fights or roman candle duels.
“Come all ye young rebels And list while I sing For the love of one’s country Tis a terrible thing It banishes fear with the Speed of a flame And makes us all part of The patriot’s game…”
It’s a free show. With the right people it’s good, but I understand your feeling.