What happened with active users on Lemmy?
from 101@feddit.org to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 10 Sep 14:38
https://feddit.org/post/2725596
from 101@feddit.org to nostupidquestions@lemmy.world on 10 Sep 14:38
https://feddit.org/post/2725596
I just noticed that active users on Lemmy got slashed, what happened?
References:
#nostupidquestions
threaded - newest
School started? đ¤ˇđźââď¸
Iâm still here most of my day.
School probably.
Honestly, whatâs more surprising is the numbers are that drastic. I didnât think we have that many Gen Z users here.
EDIT: Actual reason can be found here: feddit.dk/post/7667476/10289642
Thanks SorteKanin for providing the context.
I donât get it. I work full time and have no problem wasting my
lifeI mean time hereâŚThe notion of âsummer redditâ went hand in hand with notion of âmomâs basementâ and even âtouch grassâ in a way.
Namely, all are dated ideas from millennials that are still thinking the person on the other end of the comment is sitting in front of a computer, as the default. It ignores the simple fact we all have the internet in our pockets and can be chronically online AND actually out in the world doing things at the same time.
Nah, having computers in our pockets just allows more advanced bedrotting and removes the requirement of leaving bed.
What is your default sort set to?
Iâm set to scaled and subscribed by default which mostly gets me posts from the last 0-6 hours. But for some reason Lemmy on FF keeps logging me out so I get to see the default all with active sort and itâs a wildly different user base.
There was a post the other day in like Linux memes about case sensitivity in the file system. Early on the post was mostly the Linux die hards who love their case sensitivity. After about 1.5 days it showed up in active and all of the newer comments were (probably normal people) bashing case sensitivity. Itâs almost like R*ddit to a degree where the general consensus in the comments can change over time as different users start seeing the post.
I sort by new a lot so it definitely could be that actually. Good point.
iâm in school, still have to shit from time to time
Hijacking top comment to give the actual answer: feddit.dk/post/7667476/10289642
Oh wow didnât even see this. Thanks for providing the actual reason.
You may want to edit your comment :)
Good point, just did :)
How does the software pull the numbers? Maybe an instance got blocked 30 days ago?
We need @SorteKanin@feddit.dk to dive in and tell us how these numbers work!
Here you go: feddit.dk/post/7667476/10289642
Well, that was fast, lol.
Thanks!
FediDB shows a stable 44k MAU
The statistics there is confusing for me.
How so?
The asterisk means that, by âactive usersâ, theyâre considering only those who commented and/or posted âin the last monthâ. Maybe join-lemmyâs algorithm is considering from âday 1â of the current month, so a time span of 10 days, against 29 days from the second screenshot?
If itâs true, it kinda of statistically makes sense: 10 days (28.4K) versus 29 days (47.8K), 34.4% of days with 59.41% of users. Weâd need to wait till the 29th day to really compare the difference.
Also, âonly those who commented and/or postedâ. Sometimes, people can become much of an observer, just seeing and voting up/down, without actually commenting or posting.
Did a russian troll farm get shut down or something (/s)
No, ml and hex are still online
Lemmy devs decided to exclude lemmy.world from the join-lemmy site because itâs too big. Obviously that removes a lot of active users.
github.com/LemmyNet/joinlemmy-site/pull/358
so lemmy.world became too big to fail and the other instances decided didnât want to risk a potential bail out?
This has nothing to do with other instances. The join-lemmy.org site is run by the Lemmy developers and they decide what happens with that site. They think itâs problematic that lemmy.world is as big as it is (as one of the points of the fediverse is decentralization). So they removed lemmy.world from the listing on join-lemmy.org.
Note that this is in no way a defederation or anything of that sort. The site just doesnât show lemmy.world, thatâs all.
my comment was mostly a joke, but it doesnât contradict your point, lemmy.word got too big(relatively) so it got de-listed to flow new users to other instances
Sorry for not getting it, itâs just that sometimes people (understandably) get very confused about the technicalities of the fediverse and mix up things like defederation and stuff like this. đ
Consider a /s in the future :)
itâs ok, it was a reference to the 2008 finacial bubble, i knew there was the risk younger people wouldnât get it
That is a very weird thing to do, unless they are looking to boost their own instance.
You can read their motivation in the linked pull request. FWIW I donât think thereâs any ill intent here and certainly not an attempt to boost their own instance. I think they just want Lemmy to be decentralized and lemmy.world being as big as it is kinda prevents that.
Iâm not sure I wouldâve done it that way personally but I can see the reasoning and itâs not entirely unreasonable.
In my humble opinion, join lemmy should only exclude the instances that is harmful.
They should not choose the instances to include for the users.
I think I generally agree with you, but I donât think this is a big grievance. Lemmy.world has enough traction as it is, they donât really need the âpublicityâ from join-lemmy.org.
It wouldâve been better if they had written this as some kind of policy beforehand. Like if they had written somewhere before this pull request something like âany instance with more than 40% of active users may be excluded from the join-lemmy.org listingâ, then it wouldâve been more reasonable too.
It would have been better if they communicated to us first. I donât disagree that user signups should be spread over instances. We now have a link to lemmyverse.net on our signup page so people can check if another instance would fit them better.
I posted about this in the admin chat on matrix, but youâre right the pull request was merged very quickly.
The lemmyverse link is also a good idea, but users only see it after filling in their email and password. At that point itâs unlikely that they would cancel it and go to a different website.
Edit: Iâm now thinking to change the joinlemmy code so that any instance with more than x% of active users will automatically be hidden.
Lemmy.world becoming the default Lemmy instance, and it growing to outsize all other instances is a danger: it makes the Fediverse centralized, easy to take down and easy to take over.
The same applies to the mastodon . Social instance and the same applies really to every Fediverse software available, with the exception of pixelfed.
Why not that one? Iâm not familiar with pixelfed.
Pixelfed has a default limit to the number of users per instance.
But this is only a default right? Surely an admin can open registration anyway?
I believe yes, but at the last time I checked it out no instance had open registration, matter of fact you will have to look for good time for a free instance to register on.
Maybe they changed it now, but 1 year ago that was the case.
They'd then have to hide their own instances...
I very much doubt that they have discouraged signups to their instance many times
Holy shit, the most active instance right now on the website is LemmyNSFW.
<img alt="" src="https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/8fea4c47-56dd-45a3-838c-14fd51a2d6d4.jpeg">
đľ the internet is for porn đľ
Rule 34 in action
p0rn p0rn p0000000000000000000rn
I missed when reddit had more porn so here I am
Welcome!
Iâd shake your hand, but, wellâŚ
<img alt="" src="https://lemmynsfw.com/pictrs/image/2af401ce-441f-45c5-a3d6-7f87fd0652a9.jpeg">
Ahem maybe not the best choice of character there old chap
I want the biggest Lemmy you have.
No, thatâs too big.
Itâs a genuine concern though. If you want one centralised server hosting all the content, just use reddit.
reddit still has the problem of âgetting worseâ.
Thatâs stupid.
The main problem with lemmy now is adoption, there isnât a critical mass of users yet.
When users see the stats without lemmy.world, theyâll be discouraged from joining. Add to that the issues with federation and the few who join will leave because of the steep learning curve.
Way to alienate potential users.
Yeah. If they pushed it to the bottom of the list, or even removed them from the list but kept the user count, I could kind of understand it. But censoring them completely for being too successful seems like shooting yourself in the foot.
Lemmy.world is doing great and I'm happy for it and all that, but... 20 000 monthly active users does not exactly make them a tech giant that needs to be kept in check just yet. Ideally, instances of 20 000 active users should be quite normal at some point, and having stress tested the software before then should, one assumes, be a good thing.
You probably also have the friction been .world and the developersâ Lemmy.
There is also a problem that Lemmy seems to be having problems maintaining a good middle ground of Lemmy servers.
It honestly has me considering leaving the Fediverse. If this place is so anti- normie, fuck em
Most people are fine. All social media has some bad eggs - admittedly FOSS/GNU/Linux communities are prone to attract a specific breed of them. But they can generally be ignored pretty easily.
Yeah but these bad eggs are in charge
Not of Lemmy.world, where you are writing from. And I'm not even writing you from Lemmy. :)
The developers of the platform are not in control over what it's used for. Which is what's neat about these place.
But the comment alleges the admins of .world removed it from sign up pages due to its popularity. Thatâs the kind of anti-newbie behavior that turns me off.
It's the Lemmy developers, who run Lemmy.ml and Lemmygrad.ml, who decided not to promote Lemmy.world on their "about Lemmy" website. This is completely unrelated to the admins of Lemmy.world. :)
Itâs because the devs suck
The devs are working hard providing a public service that they make available for everyone. And the product they've developed is pretty impressive, in spite of its shortcomings.
They hold some opinions I disagree with pretty strongly, and I'm not a fan of every decision they make. But they're creating a truly common good, and for that they deserve praise. From a technical perspective, they have created something completely new that serves thousands of users and constitutes a system of huge complexity. They very much do not suck.
Anyone who thinks any person maintaining an open source project "sucks" should feel free to fork the project, fix whatever they're not happy with, and maintain the repository and handle commits and all the shit that goes down in managing a large open source project. After dedicating all this time to people, some random ingrate will inevitably disagree with some minor decision they've made and decide that they "suck".
I mean. Theyâre torpedoing that open source projectâs chances for growth because of their ideology. Itâs pretty sucky.
I agree with the rest of your statement regarding the development of Lemmy.
Yeah, for sure. Doing something great doesn't shield you from also making some really shitty decisions or holding some god-awful positions.
I just think it's good to keep a nuance of language. Too many open source developers burn out, and a hostile community is listed as one of the reasons too often. There will always be disagreements, and there are valid ways of voicing it, but one should never forget that there is humans on the other side and remain kind. :)
You have been banned from Lemmy.ml
They are okay as devs, not that good as admins, which is fine, it is known by now, and people can move easily.
To the people who are going to answer that they are bad devs too, which other devs are that much better than them at this moment for link aggregators in the Fediverse?
I like Piefed and Mbin as much as the next guy, but Lemmy is still the most polished software as of now. Maybe that will change in the future, but letâs face it: with the amount of pushback the Lemmy devs are getting regularly, the fact that most of the instances still use Lemmy is a sign that there the alternatives arenât that much better.
Nah weâll keep dropping instances when they hit 20k users.
what steep learning curve? whatâs so steep about thinking of social media like email?
Oh come on, letâs not pretend that the fediverse is just super intuitive and easy for regular users (i.e. non-techie people). Same ridiculous notion as when people say Linux is just as user-friendly as the more mainstream OSes. Itâs sad and I wish it was better but itâs just not right now.
It might be a little more complicated than normal social media and email but it definitely is not that complex.
Sorry, but the fact that youâre here means that you are probably in the top percentages of tech-literate people. Especially considering youâre on programming.dev.
Youâre severely overestimating the technical literacy of regular people. For many people (maybe even the majority of people) even email is complex.
goddam
I never want to mention them explicitly to avoid them getting raided, but there is a community which came here after their sub got banned.
The sub was about an influencer, so definitely not the crowd you would expect on Lemmy.
They are doing just fine. We helped them a bit at first, showed them that there were apps, told them to remember the name of their âserverâ when logging in.
The community is quite active with over 150 monthly active users. They discuss their topic in their community, everything is going well.
Sometimes I feel like we overestimate the complexity of Lemmy.
If they can do it, everybody can do it.
That is a nice success story!
That âlittle more complicatedâ is asking for a lot, though.
Say youâre coming from Reddit, or Facebook, or something.
It would not be unreasonable to believe that, like Reddit, every single Lemmy instance is its own separate, self-contained site.
And thatâs even before figuring out federation works, and how to access things from outside of your instance, or all the nuances that come with defederation and all of that. You made the mistake of joining beehaw? Whoops, all the other âsubsâ are now inaccessible, because beehaw is not connected to any of the others.
Central places like Reddit donât have that complexity. Reddit communities are singular, and thereâs no overarching layer to complicate things. A community that disagrees with another, and blocks them doesnât affect your experience as an user.
People shouldnât have suggested you Beehaw.
Nowadays, I just say
Thatâs it. No federation explanation, no Fediverse jargon. Keep it simple. Also, see my other comment below about an active community of non tech users
How does this argument apply to Lemmy? I get the number of instances could be confusing but you donât have to know or care about any of that. If you donât you just land on some registration page and do it. I honestly donât see how thatâs more technical than registering to Reddit, Facebook or Instagram.
The choice of instance is kind of a big barrier though. Thereâs also a lot of bad UX around discoverability.
Thereâs a reason why Brazilians went to threads and blue sky and not even considered mastodon.
Talking about Brazil, lemmy.eco.br is a nice Brazilian Lemmy instance
buT mUh DeCenTrAlIZatiOn!
The decentralisation probably doesnât help either. People coming to Lemmy from other places are coming from a centralised system. That takes some getting used to.
If youâre new to this, you can be forgiven by thinking that all the Lemmy instances are their own separate thing, like the forums of old, rather than that theyâre all interconnected (excluding a whole bunch of stuff about defederation and all of that mess).
As far as Iâm concerned thatâs a feature. If we let the normies in then it just turns into Reddit all over again. That slop pile can stay over there.
Thereâs still room to grow. We could still double the number of active people to 100k and have a wide margin compared to having millions of users
Why does removing them from the site also mean cutting their user count from Active Users though?
Thatâs just how it works at the moment. It only counts active users from the sites listed.
@Blaze@feddit.org falling asleep with a smile on their face tonight :)
Not really, pretending a third of the monthly active users do not exist isnât really anything Iâm happy about.
LW is still in these stats, so thereâs that
Right, I didnât think how it would affect the total active user count. Will have to think of a solution for that.
I guess a new flag to only exclude it from the list but not exclude it from the stats đ¤ˇ
Or even some logic to automatically exclude from the list any instance with more than x% of active users.
I have NO idea about the actual answer. Is it possible that these are from different time-of-day readings?
Honestly, itâs a short-sighted move made with hubris by the developerâs personal ideology. Both @nutomic@lemmy.ml and @dessalines@lemmy.ml admit in the PR that itâs not a good solution, but yet they continue any way â probably because itâs an easy âsolutionâ, despite alienating 41% of their active user base.
Itâs a terrible trend in a lot of programming circles that programmers think because it is easy and it âworksâ (in that one circumstance) that it must be correct. This can be evidenced by browsing StackOverflow and reading the accepted answers for a lot of questions (SSL errors in software and disabling hostname verification or cert checks comes to mind).
In my 18+ years of experience, if I find an âeasyâ solution to a complex problem, I keep looking for the correct solution. What is âeasyâ now will most likely lead to more complex problems down the line. And as they say, âif you canât find the time to fix it right the first time, where are you going to find the time to fix it again?â
Look, I get Lemmy is meant to be decentralized. Hiding away your biggest instance looks shady to outside users not in the know. The real solution is to âgo door to doorâ to app makers and ask them to not default to any one instance of Lemmy (side note: randomizing a default server is not much better). If anything, add a link to join-lemmy where people can browse the list of ALL instances (yes, ALL of them) and let them make a genuinely-informed decision on their own. As a convenience, and API should be provided (assuming one does not already exist) so that apps can query a pageable/searchable list of existing/active instances (maybe also provide a link to their homepage too).
Hell, if it makes everyone feel warm and fuzzy, the default sorting of returned values can be weighted by percentage of active users (i.e., higher percentages get lower weights to help promote smaller instances). This would help to round out the number of signups without excluding instances.
But whatever developers do (not just Lemmy devs), do NOT overly dictate how people use your software âbecause I donât like itâ; lest you piss your user base off.
/two-cents
Edit: clarified a few points.
Why would distributing users to smaller instances alienate Lemmy.world users?
If anything, distributing the load results in a better user experience, since the last Reddit exodus was taking down .world every few hours.
Because itâs not simply âdistributingâ the load; itâs actively hiding an instance as if it doesnât exist. So what do they do when the next instance gets âtoo bigâ for their liking? Hide it, along side LW? And the next?
Re-read my comment â specifically the second half where I offer a potential solution that would actually distribute the load more fairly without having to hide anything.
For the purpose of directing new users, who tend to just pick the largest instance, sure. But if you and they are both federated, thereâs no difference in the content.
Correct, because this increases the reliability of the average lemmy userâs experience as one point of failure affects fewer users.
You're talking about something without actually clarifying what the hell you're talking about. That's the short sighted move? The easy "solution"? What "works"?
I think because we have mostly memes and any discussion is just won by downvoting your opponent. :)
Iâm half serious⌠The platform right now is lacking actual discussions. Everyone seems to just like memes.
Unfortunately, the Lemmy community copied opinion downvoting from Reddit.
There are good reasons to downvote, but a different opinion is not one of them. This just leads to echo chambers.
There are 3 options: upvote, downvote and the 3rd one is just not clicking anything.
Literally all my downvotes are from people with different options. This is a huge echo chamber. I rarely insult anyone and Iâm always polite. I donât believe vaccinations are safe for everyone since there are side effects, and I think each person should make their own decision about them. I donât think gender issues are the most important thing in the world.
These are controversial opinions on this platform. :) And I get a lot of downvotes for those opinions when they show up. Not that I care, because I just ignore it. But in the larger picture, it makes people leave the platform.
Why should they stay? I think Lemmy needs to have a good reason to be used. Memes wonât be enough.
I still like the idea of a platform without big tech though. I just think most people donât realize what makes people stay on a platform. Itâs not memes.
I downvoted you
Alright. Want a reward? :)
Yeah :D
I think voting should be as what was originally set out by Reddit; I donât know if itâs still in their guidelines. The voting system indicates the relevancy of the contribution and whether it adds to the discussion or not. Spam and off-topic contributions gets shoved to the bottom and everything else rises to the top.
Obviously most people on Reddit these days use it as a like/dislike, agree/disagree voting system as well.
Does Lemmy instance owners and community mods ban people for having a different opinion thatâs so benign?
Some Reddit mods attempt to be authoritative and ban people who hold different opinions to themselves. I know I have and I stay out of subs that relate to politics, the news, and anything divisive really.
Not to mention the deluge of posts/comments advocating greater violence in the name of stopping violence. Honestly? I think people are just waking up to the fact that behind the techno babble and ideological propaganda, Lemmy is a social network just like any other.
Honestly Iâve just blocked most of the meme comms đ . Itâs easy to see memes when I want to anyway by just opening a private window where Iâm not logged in and going to the all feed. Itâs always mostly memes anyway. Then when Iâm logged in, I can see some other stuff without all the memes clogging up my feed.
Same here
I keep promoting the non-memes communities every time I can (usually on !newcommunities@lemmy.world ), after a while it just seems like most of the users do not actually even want to discuss that much, just look at memes (which is also fine)
Thank you!
Memes and tech
Edit: and politics
Think a lot of people joined because they were mad at Redditâs fuckery last year but have since gone back.
His screenshot is from a couple weeks ago.
Eh ⌠i use lemmy pretty regularly but not in the last few days. Maybe itâs just a lull
yeah itâs probably @thisbenzingring@lemmy.sdf.org âs fault
huh, thereâs a whole instance just for the Ascendance of a Bookworm anime/manga <img alt="" src="https://lemm.ee/pictrs/image/e796b759-1b65-43a5-9805-41a04b765b75.png">
Ya damn right! Probably wouldâve been a lot more popular too if Lemmy had spoiler tag support (see discussion github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/317). But now that the LN is finished, itâll probably be a lot harder to convince people to move over from the subreddit, even if spoiler tags were implemented. đ˘ Maybe when the new season of the anime premiers it will pick up.
The CIA got 'em
Part of it is that people also moved on from Lemmy too. Lemmy is nice, but there also isnât very much by way of activity on it, which feeds back into itself. No activity means thereâs nothing to draw people into it, and not enough to keep them around when they are there.
One of the communities and (non-world) instances I frequented is all but dead these days.
44k is still the actual number compared to 28k.
Also, which are those dead communities?
The Star Trek ones over on startrek.website. They werenât the most active to begin with, though their activity has dropped a bit more over time.
The memes moved to !tenforward@lemmy.world, but you might know that already
I didnât, actually, but thank you.
Wait, TF
Second attempt, I removed lemmy.world from the blocklist and instead added some code to hide any instances with more than 30% of all active users.
join-lemmy.org/instances still shows 28k rather than 44?
Its not merged/deployed yet.
Makes sense!
Did lemmy do something in the meantime to keep bots out?
If a lot of them canât operate anymore like before they wouldnât count as active users anymore either and would explain discrepancies, or not?
Not that I know anything about how bots or websites work tbh.
Idk if bots were ever that present on here, excluding the ones that basically scrape reddit for content
The reason is here: lemmy.world/comment/12280494
Strange, I feel people are commenting more.
But those metrics are incorrect, so their feeling is actually closer to reality
lemmy.world/comment/12280494
So, most user are passive user. Maybe they leave because nothing interesting.
One another hypothesis is that the stats is not count fully as some instance was not up to the task, slow, ⌠So the now stat is under-count
Always has been: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1%25_rule
The actual reason is here: sh.itjust.works/comment/13842484
Lemmy pulled a CNN. Basically, all Trump news again.
Eh, i doubt itâs that. Every other website is doing the same shit.
Likely itâs just that Lemmy has a fraction of the content/activity that Reddit has, so people probably just came to Lemmy, got bored, and went back to Reddit, ha.
Numbers are the same, the actual reason is here: sh.itjust.works/comment/13842484
I donât understand the logic to exclude it. That just makes the user count grossly inaccurate.
It has been fixed since then: eviltoast.org/post/8636588
Yes, those websites have Trump content as well but is it a majority of the front page?