Quick, less edited video to talk about the #Mozilla and #Firefox issue with their recent terms of use, and lackluster explanations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc96ISKh2OM
from thelinuxEXP@mastodon.social to firefox@fedia.io on 05 Mar 12:25
https://mastodon.social/users/thelinuxEXP/statuses/114109809423930517
from thelinuxEXP@mastodon.social to firefox@fedia.io on 05 Mar 12:25
https://mastodon.social/users/thelinuxEXP/statuses/114109809423930517
Quick, less edited video to talk about the #Mozilla and #Firefox issue with their recent terms of use, and lackluster explanations:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc96ISKh2OM
#firefox #mozilla
threaded - newest
@thelinuxEXP the issue is what could be a valid alternative. I will stay with Firefox for a while.
@blackbeard Any Firefox fork that doesn’t belong to Mozilla :)
@thelinuxEXP @blackbeard I'm really hoping I'm the future it could be ladybird. They just did their montly update video a couple days ago and they keep chipping away at getting to a usable state.
The rate of their progress is pretty cool. Not there yet, but I'm really Hopeful.
@thelinuxEXP but these forks can't exist without Mozilla. They change four settings and that's it, they are not able to support browser development.
I don't think Firefox is good, but are the alternatives better? And do they promise not to sell data?
I doubt that Servo can save us.
I think Firefox is the least bad of all the bad browsers
@Distante The least bad doesn’t mean we give them a pass :) In the meantime, the forks don’t have all these BS terms and history of shady stuff that we all half brush away. I’ll reassess when things change again!
@thelinuxEXP @blackbeard if Firefox falls, all of the forks will as well, none of them has the skills or the resources to stay alive in any meaningful way
@marsup @blackbeard Yep, that’s pretty disheartening. Right now, I want so support the engine, but not the company, if that makes sense?
@thelinuxEXP Welp, now you'll have to make a video on what good alternatives we have ^^'
@thelinuxEXP How to depend on Mozilla to keep on doing good work on Firefox without helping pushing the world more towards Chrome is my question.
I can tell the common people to use Firefox, as it works and generally is still better than the Chrome monoculture (and from a privacy point) but any name they don't instantly recognise just gets discarded.
@thelinuxEXP They actually built in an AI assistant, or a tool that connects one to your websites. You can activate it in the Firefox Lab settings.
@thelinuxEXP If Mozilla really pivots into harvesting user data to sell to AI companies for profit then it's time to switch but I'll keep using it for the time being and see how it works out.
Speaking of email clients, I've been using Evolution for what seems like forever now. Tried Thunderbird a couple of times but always keep coming back.
@thelinuxEXP while u hv mentioned that the data is likely only 2 hv come fm the browser, watt would happen if they r harvesting info fm 1s email? Is there any way we can export thunderbird private folders to say evolution or some other email client?
@thelinuxEXP I have an hard time ditching mozilla, as I am a serious fan of the excellent email client Thunderbird...
@thelinuxEXP
Aren't we overreacting a bit?
Firefox has been on a declining adoption curve for years, let's try not to discourage even more people from using it. Unless there's a very valid, proven reason. Not just suspicion.
@thelinuxEXP as said Churchill : Firefox is the worst browser, except all the others.
There are no real better alternatives I am afraid 🤷♂️ (and the forks are just a short time solution)
@thelinuxEXP I've supported a waterfox developer that was awhile back I use opera I know it's proprietary and all, just love the features it offers
@thelinuxEXP There two "nice" outcome of all this :
The current "forks" alternative is not a real one. They just apply some small patches on top of Firefox, but not the "real" work of maintaining/evolving the core of the browser
@thelinuxEXP That was a useful, if depressing video. I've been using Firefox off and on for more than twenty years so I've got a lot of inertia to overcome!
Having said that, that lit a fire under me to actually try LibreWolf! First impressions after five minutes - it's actually very similar to how I have Firefox set up. It comes with uBlock Origin pre-installed which gets a big thumbs up from me.
@thelinuxEXP Very timely. I just switched over to LibreWolf. Mozilla just can't be trusted.
@thelinuxEXP Any good alternative for Firefox? I using KeepassXC addon and Ublock Origin for sufing on net.
@thelinuxEXP
It might seem obvious, but anyone who offers web browser software, their browser has access to the data fetched by requests and anything typed into a form, included files attached to POST data for upload, any bookmarks you create, and the history.
Not surprised if after all the fuss it turns out Mozilla legal decided (for some reason) they needed explicitly state this, and other browser makers merely assume you implicitly accept it when you install or update a browser.
@prlzx I’d be surprised if that was the only reason. Firefox didn’t need that since its inception, and right when they announce a pivot towards AI, they’d suddenly needs terms of use?
Way too close to be a coincidence, IMO
@thelinuxEXP
I would rather wait to see what else changes before jumping to conclusions that require assuming bad faith and saying that Mozilla must be as bad as any other until proven otherwise.
Mozilla could choose to show a notification with each browser update if the terms or privacy policy of Firefox changes, statements that they won't is also an opinion rather than a known fact.
Users still choose when/if to update browser package so musing about a "kill-switch" is pure speculation.
@thelinuxEXP
You surely do accept that every browser in existence needs to access the data used to display web pages (they are downloaded and the DOM built and rendered locally).
They never had published terms before but the browser is doing the same things right now to function that they didn't legally spell out before.
Legal are famously bad at writing in plain language esp when describing technology functions unless skilled in both areas or in a joint team - Mozilla aren't alone in that.
@prlzx Of course a browser needs the data to build the DOM. They don’t need user data though, they don’t need to grant Mozilla a license to use that data. They also don’t need to remove all mentions of not selling data from their website. They also don’t need to focus on AI, add extensions into people’s webbrowsers, have the capacity to change terms without notifying users, or to add ad tech in the browser without notice. Mozilla has exceeded the goodwill I had for them.
@thelinuxEXP
I just think there's an inherent contradiction between assuming that Mozilla are secretly planning to do bad things while making it public by publishing terms of use with constraints defined by the privacy policy.
If they were really trying to be secretive about it as you and others have said they could simply not publish any terms for implicit use at all.
I'm disappointed at how many other people have jumped on the same bandwagon attacking a FOSS product without nuance.
@thelinuxEXP
Btw How may channels have actually spoken with a contact at Mozilla to invite them to discuss this in an interview before just reporting and telling others to stop using any/all of their products?
@thelinuxEXP Thank you, this is pretty much exactly how I feel too; I'm very grateful for Mozilla's historical contributions, but they keep being sus lately and this was finally the last straw. And I also settled on Floorp as a smooth short-term replacement. :)
In the long term, Servo or Ladybird or something else is likely the way to go, but those are still at least a year away...
A video on the various alt browsers would be definitely interesting!
@thelinuxEXP And use what? All the hundred Chrome forks? Or several Firefox forks that cannot exist on their own without Firefox and Mozilla? Firefox and Mozilla are a lesser evil. It's not ideal, but I'd rather use tweaked Firefox than any Chrome fork or all the flawed Firefox forks. That's just the reality.
I personally can't wait for Ladybird. A clean slate with no corporate background.
@rejzor I’ll use a Firefox fork, better they basically have 0 drawbacks compared to Firefox and are at least not subject to Mozilla’s BS, but yeah, it’s a bad situation.
@thelinuxEXP The problem is that in case of a web browser there is no such thing as a fork. It's too complex and too important software to be "maintained" by a few volunteers. That's the tragedy.
@thelinuxEXP I see a lot of people promoting Ladybird as a potential alternative, but when people rightfully point out the transphobic developer who is still kept as a maintainer, they just dismiss or attack them and just keep parroting the "software should be apolitical" bullshit. Unless they somehow work rapidly to completely cut out that toxicity, they'll end up like so many other FOSS ventures - fostering a toxic community that just pushes away others and value "the technical stuff" more than people.
Feels like we really are screwed and completely without any actual good options -_-.
@thelinuxEXP I don't think you have to worry about @thunderbird though, Mozilla doesn't seem to care about it at all, they tried to kill it, then get rid of it, eventually just turned it into subsidiary and gave free pass. Thunderbird doesn't even want to use Mozilla account for their sync.
I remember your previous video on Firefox alternatives and the conclusion was "nothing better tbh" and I believe that the only thing that changed since is Mozilla being even worse.
@ponda
You are right, thunderbird says this:
"Thunderbird operates in a separate, for-profit subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation. This structure gives us the flexibility to offer optional paid services to sustain Thunderbird’s development far into the future."
@thelinuxEXP @thunderbird
@_marco_ @ponda @thelinuxEXP We also wanted to additionally clarify that we won't be adopting the Firefox Terms of Use for Thunderbird, either on desktop or on mobile.
@thunderbird @_marco_ @ponda @thelinuxEXP Heared that at Firefox and look what happened ... the trust in Mozilla is gone and Mozilla will have to get up and rebuild this trust in years. Maybe (!) it will regain the trust, but not with this kind of actions.
@thunderbird @thelinuxEXP @_marco_ @ponda huge win for thunderbird seriously
@thelinuxEXP so following the law in mozilla's case (they need that in the states) is bad, but taking money from neonazi supporter is OK? talk about double standards...
yes, the wording was shit, but they explained (backtracked) it.
we still haven't heard YOUR solution to financial woes of mozilla.
@lecroix74 What the hell is the relationship between what they did and taking money from neonazi supporters? What are you even talking about with this?
I also think you misunderstand: I don’t have to prove solutions. My ability to criticize doesn’t require me to have solutions either.
As per walking it back,’it doesn’t make things ok. What wait a week to say which law causes this? Why lot start with that? Why not consult the community? Same mistakes, for the past 10 years…
@thelinuxEXP the problem being that all other browsers use blink/webkit. It will spell the end of standards of the web and leave the rest of the control to google.
@thelinuxEXP I really want #Mozilla to become financially independent from Google. I want a browser manufacturer who believes in the optimistic vision of the internet, which we had before unsocial media.
But if they sacrifice this vision, there is nothing which keeps me at #Firefox.
Anyway, as Linux users, we should also not forget, that the Terms of Usage don't apply to us. We have no business with Mozilla. Our Firefox is provided by Fedora, Ubuntu etc. We never ever agreed to the TOS.
@louisderrac @thelinuxEXP it is probably important to add that this change only affects Mozilla's binaries, so any Mozilla built from source such as this in Linux distros is not submitted to this new assertion
@thelinuxEXP You keep saying this but what is the option if you want a browser that looks and works like (past versions of) Firefox and you don't want to have problems accessing sites, and you want to keep using all your Firefox extensions? Don't say LibreWolf because a lot of sites won't work with it (due in part to their overly aggressive privacy measures, that maybe can be disabled but only if you know how). As far as I can tell, every alternative people are suggesting has some drawback - some are major and some just really annoying.
But also, if the issue is Firefox grabbing data of some kind and selling it, isn't there some way to prevent that data from being transmitted to Mozilla, perhaps using something like PiHole or uBlock Origin? All the techie types think just switching browsers is a solution but for many users that's a whole lot easier said than done, and none of the alternatives seem really great.
@thelinuxEXP @thelinuxexperiment
https://tilvids.com/w/fAvzwwK2abKCGUea6FT9va
Same content on #PeerTube ...
@thelinuxEXP You present a few alternatives (forks of Firefox) for the desktop, but is there anything to replace Firefox on mobile devices? Would any of these alternatives offer a synchronization of bookmarks and history between devices?
@thelinuxEXP I'd love to see you try Asahi Linix in 2025, I know that you already did a video on that.