Anything you say or do on Firefox may be used by Mozilla against you. You have the right to use a different browser. If you cannot find a browser that doesn’t fuck you over one way or another, one w
from aral@mastodon.ar.al to firefox@fedia.io on 27 Feb 2025 13:49
https://mastodon.ar.al/users/aral/statuses/114076167184310953
from aral@mastodon.ar.al to firefox@fedia.io on 27 Feb 2025 13:49
https://mastodon.ar.al/users/aral/statuses/114076167184310953
Anything you say or do on Firefox may be used by Mozilla against you. You have the right to use a different browser. If you cannot find a browser that doesn’t fuck you over one way or another, one will not be provided for you because capitalism is working exactly as designed.
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-terms-of-use/
#Mozilla #Firefox #TermsOfUse #SiliconValley #BigTech #USA #AI
#ai #bigtech #firefox #mozilla #siliconvalley #termsofuse #usa
threaded - newest
@aral I have a question here, does this also apply to Firefox forks? (I'm affraid the answer is yes...)
CC: @Waterfox
@Hache @Waterfox No, they can’t dictate terms of use for forks without violating their own open source license.
No because they free to, and will remove the stupid TOS.
@Hache @aral this doesn’t apply to us, we have our own privacy policy. But bear in mind if you use a Mozilla account/sync you still have to know the terms for those services.
Just from a cursory glance it doesn’t seem there’s anything egregious with the terms of use or privacy policy update - is there anything specific that sticks out? Legally companies have to provide a privacy policy; terms of use aren’t necessary but just seems to state what is already the case.
@Waterfox @Hache Mozilla jumps into AI… and now this 🤔. I’m not into giving Silicon Valley tech companies the benefit of the doubt.
@aral @Hache I do note:
> When you upload or input information through Firefox, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license to use that information to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox.
That seems incredibly broad, am I misunderstanding where this applies? Surely not just a blanket statement?
@aral Grrr, I just switched over to Firefox after realizing how crappy Chrome is for privacy/ads. 😡
@aral
That's... Accurate.
Hurtful, to be honest, but accurate.
@aral Another good reminder that just because something is lead by a non-profit does not mean it has inherent ethics or the interests of its consumers in mind
@wonkothesane * A not-for-profit that owns a half-a-billion dollar a year for-profit that gets its half-a-billion dollars a year from Google.
@aral
Does that mean, if i type something into a mask on an encrypted website (https), that Mozilla can read it?
@messaroundmarx 🤷♂️
At least they’re open source so you should be able to see exactly what information is being collected if you dive into the code.
@aral
@messaroundmarx http://www.underhanded-c.org/
@aral
@FirewallDragons My email to you preceded my seeing this, but yeah, in the same vein of questioning…
I just discovered a Firefox fork called Floorp. It’s being developed in Japan and their privacy policy is very good. Check em out!
@aral has anyone used the #TheOnionRouter aka tor browser? @eff rates it good for privacy.
It's very slow, and many websites block TOR users.
@aral deleted the app and Thunderbird
@aral I’ve been noodling on privacy-oriented and non-Chromium options other than FF for a while, and feel a bit hamstrung.
Really rather avoid Brave for not wanting to support that CEO, and that doesn’t leave much.
The hope that I can also sync a browser between my iPhone app and Windows laptop seemingly just makes it totally unattainable.
Wide open to other recommendations.
Donate or support an open source engine so we can leave these baddies behind us https://servo.org/ it was originally a mozilla project but is now its own. I have been watching it for a year and they have made a significant amount of progress but still a lot more to go.
@aral Waht's about Brave as an alternative?
@jazzonbike This is Brave: https://basicattentiontoken.org/
@aral Sorry, meant the Brave Browser https://brave.com/
@jazzonbike So did I.
Guess they have to pay the CEO's $7m salary somehow.
@aral
@mozillaofficial @firefoxnightly care to explain?
@aral
Gave Vivaldi a try and so far am enjoying the UI as I can move between tabs easier than Firefox and seems a bit faster.
@aral luckily one has a choice... to switch what theyre using.
one choice might be the tor browser. which is based on ff, lets you import your bookmarks (password import is a bit problematic...) and supports the extensions without that the web would be unbareable.
Not sure how comments propagate between Lemmy and Mastodon, but I'm getting tired of the fear mongering and misinformation about all of this. Can you point to the specific parts of the new Terms that you're afraid of? I've gone through it, as have many others, and these are pretty boilerplate standards any company would have. Things like AI bots are USER enabled. You have to actively turn it on to use it and DUH you'll have to agree to that services Terms as well.
"You give Mozilla all rights necessary to operate Firefox, including processing data as we describe in the Firefox Privacy Notice, as well as acting on your behalf to help you navigate the internet. When you upload or input information through Firefox, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license to use that information to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox."
This statement is entirely useless without also reading the Privacy Notice.
When you type in “lemmy.world”, guess what? They kind of need to know where you’re going in order to process that request. They are processing that url. At least within the browser.
If you take the time to read the Privacy Notice, they point out the data that actually gets stored by them. Also they point out all the stuff that never leaves your device and is only processed within the browser on your machine. Guess what, your browsing history is one of those things that never leaves the machine.
“Mozilla collects certain data, like technical and settings data, to provide the core functionality of the Firefox browser and associated services, distinguish your device from others, remember and respect your settings, and provide you with default features such as New Tab, PDF editing, password manager and Total Cookie Protection. You can further customize your Firefox experience by adjusting your controls, buttons, and toolbars and adding features with add-ons.”
Great, if I signed in to my account in Firefox and asked it to mirror saved bookmarks and passwords across all my devices… How do you think it’s going to do that without sending data to Mozilla’s servers? Don’t turn on those features and the data doesn’t get stored. Awesome.
Okay, cool… What about stuff it doesn’t collect?
“Firefox processes a variety of personal data in a way that does not leave your device, such as browsing history, web form data, temporary internet files, and cookies. This means the data stays on your device and is not sent to Mozilla’s servers unless it says otherwise in this Notice. If you choose to allow it, your precise location may also be processed for location-related functionality for websites like Google Maps; this data is only accessed from your device by the website(s) you choose to enable it for — it is not sent to Mozilla’s servers.”
Cool, so all the privacy things I care about… Never actually leave my device?
Awesome. Oh hey they say something about search here…
“When you perform a search in Firefox, your search query, device data and location data will be processed by your default search engine (according to their applicable Privacy Notice) to provide your search results and search suggestions.”
Well if I want Google / Bing / DuckDuckGo search results… I guess it’s gonna have to send them my search request. Makes sense.
Oh Firefox also shows it’s own search results but… Oh cool I can disable those and no data will be sent to Mozilla.
" […] Mozilla processes certain technical and interaction data, such as how many searches you perform, how many sponsored suggestions you see and whether you interact with them. Mozilla’s partners receive de-identified information about interactions with the suggestions they’ve served. You can enable or disable Search suggestions at any time."
Maybe take the time to read everything before you spread FUD.
I was just answering your question. You asked what people were concerned about, so I pointed it out. This isn't even remotely a concern for me. No need to talk down to me and then go on a tirade I didn't read. Have a good one, champ.
“When you upload or input information through Firefox, you hereby grant us a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license to use that information to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox.”
Regardless of how they claim they use it (" to help you"), that’s ambiguous. And since they have a “nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license” to that data, they can use it however they see fit. Today, or ten years from now, even if you aren’t using Firefox then*.
And people like you (apologists) are OK with that.
While that’s certainly an overly broad license they’ve made users agree to, they’ve not taken away a user’s ability to simply opt out. Also, yes that should be the default, I agree.
For me at least, that’s a good enough reason to stick with it over chromium based browsers
They are not, and there is no reason a record of me visiting that or any other URL ever needs to touch Mozilla’s servers.
Mozilla is not my proxy, it is not my VPN, it is not my DNS.
They make the browser software and that’s it. They do not need to collect information on my, or anyone else’s, reading habits.
Is it fear mongering?
Why are they planning to remove the part about notbselling user' data?
@aral time for @fedora to move away from shipping @firefox on new releases.
The Privacy Notice doesn't say anything problematic at all, why is everyone acting like Mozilla is going to be feeding every keystroke into a database/AI? It's just saying that they're allowed use your inputs to browse to the sites you've asked for, and to give the form data/uploads/mic/whatever to the sites you're using.
A few words cherry picked from the middle of a sentence isn't how legal stuff works.
I'm not lawyer, but my reading of it says they can use that to at least get you targeted ads. Is that not a worry, or is it not new?
In the advertising bit they say what data they use and it’s all broad stuff like device type and location, as well as aggregate data on how many people click on the ads. Of course, you can just disable this, which surely most people do - tbh I forgot there was even this “sponsored content” there at all (it was added a while ago I think).
They don’t say that your browsing habits, interactions or communications are used for anything besides doing what’s required to actually do what you asked.
@Deebster Oh, I don’t know… I wonder why…
https://www.mozilla.ai/
Yes, Mozilla does some AI, like the in-browser, privacy-respecting language translation. If you use the same feature in Chrome, the text is submitted to a Google server, but in Firefox it never leaves your browser. I don't see how this could be spun to count against Firefox/Mozilla.
@Deebster Uh-huh. Yep. Sure. Let’s give them every benefit of the doubt.
Is that how religion started? Someone not understanding how something works and then living life in fear of some imagined horror scenario?
@Iapar Oh, the irony.
What do you mean?
Wtf are you on about ? A browser does not need a TOS in order to serve you web pages.
The only reason that you need a TOS is if you are collecting and retaining (and possibly analyzing) those user inputs on separate third-party servers.
It’s a fucking wiretap.
The docs say what they do and don't do - and they don't do that. Just actually read through them for yourself, you don't have to be a lawyer.
This is just a bit of corporate box-ticking, but the pitchfork brigade has read 2 + 2 and is now screaming about 5s.
@aral
Where does Opera stand as a privacy oriented choice?
@aral I don't quite understand the hate of Firefox, was their update directly at your sentiment? Mozilla is a nonprofit and they're of course not going to be perfect but they're kind of the last game in town since Google took over all the browser backends? I see a lot of "go to librewolf" but would they have enough support to maintain the browser if FF died?
@maniajack Mozilla is a not-for-profit that owns a half-a-billion dollar a year for-profit that gets its half-a-billion dollars a year from Google.
Or, as their head of public policy once told me: “Why are you being so hard on us? We’re just another Silicon Valley tech company.”
🤷♂️
@aral
good time to start contributing to ladybird, either monetary or via
contributions https://donorbox.org/ladybird
Bro imagine caring so much about your fucking browser. Lmao
@Randomgal I bet you’re great fun at parties.
@aral That looks bad. But it won't drive me to run straight in the claws of Google's Chromium. The choices without Chromium are thin. Maybe i will give LibreWolf a spin some day.
@aral The practical solution I found in the comments was #LibreWolf. I'll have a look at that browser. Just being interested in alternative solutions.
#browsers
@aral Damn, not firefox too. It was the last mainstream browser that didn't exploit your privacy. People who want to switch, Vivaldi, Brave and other firefox forks are still open (though you should do your research before moving)
@aral that’s it, I’m making my own browser from scratch. Forget the blackjack and hookers, I just want to browse the internet sometimes
Can someone clarify if there's an option to opt-out of all these new data collection stuff? I have all the telemetry related stuff disabled, so I'm not sure if it includes these new things.
@aral
Fork it.
@aral
Has anyone successfully run their own FF sync server? I have tried twice recently with no success.